idiot charged for following Koran

sadluxation · 19th February 2003, 07:37 AM

Reuters is running a story of a British Muslim Cleric, who told his followers to kill non-muslims, then used the Koran as an alibi.
And they call it a peaceful religion, sher, right!

19th February 2003, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sadluxation
Reuters is running a story of a British Muslim Cleric, who told his followers to kill non-muslims, then used the Koran as an alibi.
And they call it a peaceful religion, sher, right!

Yeah...idiots like Bush and Blair call it a peaceful religion. I NEVER understood this. Mohammed led over 20 military campaigns himself!

DialecticMaterialist · 19th February 2003, 07:56 AM

An isolated incident of course doesn't prove anything about any religion, however such militancy is not very isolated when it comes to Islam.

Yahzi · 19th February 2003, 11:38 AM

Quote:

He could face life imprisonment if convicted.

And this will help how? His only crime is talking... he can't talk from prison?

Islam, as a religion, is no more violent than Xianity. It's just that Islam, as a cultural force, is still viable and powerful, whereas Xianity is a neutered servant of capitalism. It's not Islam per se that is violent, but religion as a governing ideology instead of as Sunday morning entertainment.

19th February 2003, 12:22 PM

----
And they call it a peaceful religion, sher, right!
----

I don't know what "sher" means.

Here is an informative link:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islam.htm

,and then check out the Is Islam a religion of violence or peace? article.

Underemployed · 19th February 2003, 01:42 PM

I have just finished reading an English translation of the Koran. It was done in the early 1900's - an older translation that retains the style and tone of the original.

It was a tough read. Lots of repetition. Lots of thees and thous.

Make no mistake - Muhammed did not mince his words on what to do with non-Muslims. They are to be tolerated in times of peace and righteously smited whenever possible.

The prophet himself was a multi-wived warlord who regularly used the Koran (which was delivered in installments throughout his life) explicitly to justify his actions.

Much of it is copied from Jewish Talmudic writings. The story of Abramham is there. Joseph and his technicolour dreamcoat is there. Cain and Abel are there.

Although it does preach tolerance, there is more than enough material to justify killing infidels to please Allah.

This doesn't make Islam a bad religion - at least compared to others. But having read it, I can see why so many Muslims appear to Westerners as being a touch medieval in their outlook.

DialecticMaterialist · 22nd February 2003, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Islam, as a religion, is no more violent than Xianity. It's just that Islam, as a cultural force, is still viable and powerful, whereas Xianity is a neutered servant of capitalism. It's not Islam per se that is violent, but religion as a governing ideology instead of as Sunday morning entertainment.

Don't be simple. Not all religions are equally violent. Some are more militant then others via their traditions and scriptures. Also your comment about Xianity and capitalism....extraordinary as you get. I guess that's why opposition to cloning and stem cell research is so weak...cause xianity is "neutered".....

Oh yes and I likewise don't think the Hitler and Charles Manson should be blamed for the holocaust and murder....since they did not physically commit the crimes but used words.....

jimlintott · 22nd February 2003, 06:24 AM

Blame the individual, not the religion.

The decision to be good or bad ultimately rests with the individual. Religous ideas only play a part in the decision making process. True, that the world might be a better place if some ideas didn't exist. Any individual who suggestst that their particular whacky idea was put there by a magic guy in the sky, is mentally ill.

DialecticMaterialist · 22nd February 2003, 06:30 AM

Your likewise being simplistic. First off that simply does not work. Secodnly there is no clean cut/radical dvide between an individual and his or her religion. Secondly beliefs do effect actions meaning beliefs held in general may reflect the actions of a given number of a population.

Quote:

Religous ideas only play a part in the decision making process.

Yes but they can play a major if not the largest part in the process. Individuals do not make decisions in a vaccuum, the decisions are caused. Something has to motivate them, and this is oft times religion.

Quote:

Any individual who suggestst that their particular whacky idea was put there by a magic guy in the sky, is mentally ill.

Perhaps, but then certain religious traditions can be said to sanction mental illness.

jimlintott · 22nd February 2003, 06:58 AM

Why aren't religous people more consistent in their behaviour?

If you are willing to blame religion for bad stuff, then you have to be able to blame it for good stuff. I, personally, won't give it that power.

What this religous madman is suggesting is a form of genocide. He want's to wipe out the opposition. That is simply evolution and the selfish gene in action.

Religion is just a collection of words and ideas and has no actual power until an individual or group of individuals chooses to act on them.

DialecticMaterialist · 22nd February 2003, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Why aren't religous people more consistent in their behaviour?

Why doesn't everyone who smokes get cancer? Why doesn't everyone with HIV get AIDS? There are variables other then religion, like birth order,political leanings etc.

Quote:

If you are willing to blame religion for bad stuff, then you have to be able to blame it for good stuff.

I do. I think religion can be a very powerful force for good at times.

Quote:

What this religous madman is suggesting is a form of genocide. He want's to wipe out the opposition. That is simply evolution and the selfish gene in action.

What? Evolution does not really apply to this situation. How is killing yourself for the sake of superstition i.e. matyrdom good for ones genes? The issue is far more complex then that. The selfish genes can become confused and manifest itself in a variety if ways.

Religion is just a collection of words and ideas and has no actual power until an individual or group of individuals chooses to act on them.

Jedi Knight · 22nd February 2003, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UndercoverElephant

Yeah...idiots like Bush and Blair call it a peaceful religion. I NEVER understood this. Mohammed led over 20 military campaigns himself!

If Bush and Blair didn't say that then they would be called "Crusaders" by leftists.

JK

22nd February 2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahzi

And this will help how? His only crime is talking... he can't talk from prison?

Islam, as a religion, is no more violent than Xianity. It's just that Islam, as a cultural force, is still viable and powerful, whereas Xianity is a neutered servant of capitalism. It's not Islam per se that is violent, but religion as a governing ideology instead of as Sunday morning entertainment.

What a brainwashed kid, first u made a comment about catholic "church" being against the statement I made (about rock having a form of "life" (soul: energy force) in which can crumble down to dust and die in due time.) But u cant prove your claim, now u made this comment...This speaks how ignorant you are, making u an atheist...

First of all, "christian" (disciples of Christ), is not a violent religion. Jesus doesnt teach to kill enemies, kill thieves and sinners, kill pagans, kill the world, etc. Instead, Jesus taught to propagate the good news throughout the world. Just bcuz a white guy is a child molester, it doesnt mean all whites are child molesters. (if some christian killed, it doesnt mean all are killers, and it doesnt mean thats what God wants as well..).

I know judaism back over 4000 yrs ago was violent (as violent as all human cultures and religion/governing). But the seed develops and becomes a tree...Jesus is the fulfilment of the law, the fruit of the seed, but even from him the mission is still NOT over (judgment day havent arrived yet.)

"Mysteries hidden for generations now revealed".- Paul..

"Tell them that they are wrong about sin and about God's judgment"..- Jesus...

Back in the days they were so sure God is vengefull and angry all the time, but jesus clarified who God really is and they just misunderstood because their hearts were closed minded and evil..Unless your open the door to God (your heart), he cant enter, u must welcome him before u can understand him......

Islam in the other hand is primitive, undeveloped...They are the same over 1,000 yrs ago, as they are today. Like a seed sown to a rock, it grows for a while but because there is no moisture to provide its growth, it dies and withers away... People's hearts are evil, which makes their knowledge stupid...

19th February 2003, 07:37 AM	#1
sadluxation Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: London Posts: 336	idiot charged for following Koran Reuters is running a story of a British Muslim Cleric, who told his followers to kill non-muslims, then used the Koran as an alibi. And they call it a peaceful religion, sher, right!
	__________________ The World Famous and Award Winning (not to mention, modest) Skeptics in the Pub now on Facebook Nothing is better than homoeopathy!

19th February 2003, 07:54 AM	#2
Guest Posts: n/a	Re: idiot charged for following Koran Quote: Originally posted by sadluxation Reuters is running a story of a British Muslim Cleric, who told his followers to kill non-muslims, then used the Koran as an alibi. And they call it a peaceful religion, sher, right! Yeah...idiots like Bush and Blair call it a peaceful religion. I NEVER understood this. Mohammed led over 20 military campaigns himself!
Guest Posts: n/a

19th February 2003, 07:56 AM	#3
DialecticMaterialist Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,022	An isolated incident of course doesn't prove anything about any religion, however such militancy is not very isolated when it comes to Islam.
	__________________ Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering (Hitler's designated successor)

19th February 2003, 12:22 PM	#5
Guest Posts: n/a	Re: idiot charged for following Koran ---- And they call it a peaceful religion, sher, right! ---- I don't know what "sher" means. Here is an informative link: http://www.religioustolerance.org/islam.htm ,and then check out the Is Islam a religion of violence or peace? article.
Guest Posts: n/a

19th February 2003, 01:42 PM	#6
Underemployed Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 764	I have just finished reading an English translation of the Koran. It was done in the early 1900's - an older translation that retains the style and tone of the original. It was a tough read. Lots of repetition. Lots of thees and thous. Make no mistake - Muhammed did not mince his words on what to do with non-Muslims. They are to be tolerated in times of peace and righteously smited whenever possible. The prophet himself was a multi-wived warlord who regularly used the Koran (which was delivered in installments throughout his life) explicitly to justify his actions. Much of it is copied from Jewish Talmudic writings. The story of Abramham is there. Joseph and his technicolour dreamcoat is there. Cain and Abel are there. Although it does preach tolerance, there is more than enough material to justify killing infidels to please Allah. This doesn't make Islam a bad religion - at least compared to others. But having read it, I can see why so many Muslims appear to Westerners as being a touch medieval in their outlook.
Underemployed Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 764	__________________ There is no punchy, conclusive final sentence for this post.

19th February 2003, 11:38 AM	#4
Yahzi Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 2,672	Quote: He could face life imprisonment if convicted. And this will help how? His only crime is talking... he can't talk from prison? Islam, as a religion, is no more violent than Xianity. It's just that Islam, as a cultural force, is still viable and powerful, whereas Xianity is a neutered servant of capitalism. It's not Islam per se that is violent, but religion as a governing ideology instead of as Sunday morning entertainment.

22nd February 2003, 06:01 AM	#7
DialecticMaterialist Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,022	Quote: Islam, as a religion, is no more violent than Xianity. It's just that Islam, as a cultural force, is still viable and powerful, whereas Xianity is a neutered servant of capitalism. It's not Islam per se that is violent, but religion as a governing ideology instead of as Sunday morning entertainment. Don't be simple. Not all religions are equally violent. Some are more militant then others via their traditions and scriptures. Also your comment about Xianity and capitalism....extraordinary as you get. I guess that's why opposition to cloning and stem cell research is so weak...cause xianity is "neutered"..... Oh yes and I likewise don't think the Hitler and Charles Manson should be blamed for the holocaust and murder....since they did not physically commit the crimes but used words.....
	__________________ Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering (Hitler's designated successor)

22nd February 2003, 06:24 AM	#8
jimlintott Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 2,894	Blame the individual, not the religion. The decision to be good or bad ultimately rests with the individual. Religous ideas only play a part in the decision making process. True, that the world might be a better place if some ideas didn't exist. Any individual who suggestst that their particular whacky idea was put there by a magic guy in the sky, is mentally ill.
	__________________ If you are going to throw caution to the wind, make sure you are standing upwind.

22nd February 2003, 06:30 AM	#9
DialecticMaterialist Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,022	Jim Your likewise being simplistic. First off that simply does not work. Secodnly there is no clean cut/radical dvide between an individual and his or her religion. Secondly beliefs do effect actions meaning beliefs held in general may reflect the actions of a given number of a population. Quote: Religous ideas only play a part in the decision making process. Yes but they can play a major if not the largest part in the process. Individuals do not make decisions in a vaccuum, the decisions are caused. Something has to motivate them, and this is oft times religion. Quote: Any individual who suggestst that their particular whacky idea was put there by a magic guy in the sky, is mentally ill. Perhaps, but then certain religious traditions can be said to sanction mental illness.
	__________________ Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering (Hitler's designated successor)

22nd February 2003, 06:58 AM	#10
jimlintott Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 2,894	Why aren't religous people more consistent in their behaviour? If you are willing to blame religion for bad stuff, then you have to be able to blame it for good stuff. I, personally, won't give it that power. What this religous madman is suggesting is a form of genocide. He want's to wipe out the opposition. That is simply evolution and the selfish gene in action. Religion is just a collection of words and ideas and has no actual power until an individual or group of individuals chooses to act on them.
	__________________ If you are going to throw caution to the wind, make sure you are standing upwind.

22nd February 2003, 07:13 AM	#11
DialecticMaterialist Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,022	Quote: Why aren't religous people more consistent in their behaviour? Why doesn't everyone who smokes get cancer? Why doesn't everyone with HIV get AIDS? There are variables other then religion, like birth order,political leanings etc. Quote: If you are willing to blame religion for bad stuff, then you have to be able to blame it for good stuff. I do. I think religion can be a very powerful force for good at times. Quote: What this religous madman is suggesting is a form of genocide. He want's to wipe out the opposition. That is simply evolution and the selfish gene in action. What? Evolution does not really apply to this situation. How is killing yourself for the sake of superstition i.e. matyrdom good for ones genes? The issue is far more complex then that. The selfish genes can become confused and manifest itself in a variety if ways. Religion is just a collection of words and ideas and has no actual power until an individual or group of individuals chooses to act on them.
	__________________ Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering (Hitler's designated successor)

22nd February 2003, 02:12 PM	#12
Jedi Knight Banned Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 2,734	Re: Re: idiot charged for following Koran Quote: Originally posted by UndercoverElephant Yeah...idiots like Bush and Blair call it a peaceful religion. I NEVER understood this. Mohammed led over 20 military campaigns himself! If Bush and Blair didn't say that then they would be called "Crusaders" by leftists. JK
Jedi Knight Banned Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 2,734

22nd February 2003, 02:35 PM	#13
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Yahzi And this will help how? His only crime is talking... he can't talk from prison? Islam, as a religion, is no more violent than Xianity. It's just that Islam, as a cultural force, is still viable and powerful, whereas Xianity is a neutered servant of capitalism. It's not Islam per se that is violent, but religion as a governing ideology instead of as Sunday morning entertainment. What a brainwashed kid, first u made a comment about catholic "church" being against the statement I made (about rock having a form of "life" (soul: energy force) in which can crumble down to dust and die in due time.) But u cant prove your claim, now u made this comment...This speaks how ignorant you are, making u an atheist... First of all, "christian" (disciples of Christ), is not a violent religion. Jesus doesnt teach to kill enemies, kill thieves and sinners, kill pagans, kill the world, etc. Instead, Jesus taught to propagate the good news throughout the world. Just bcuz a white guy is a child molester, it doesnt mean all whites are child molesters. (if some christian killed, it doesnt mean all are killers, and it doesnt mean thats what God wants as well..). I know judaism back over 4000 yrs ago was violent (as violent as all human cultures and religion/governing). But the seed develops and becomes a tree...Jesus is the fulfilment of the law, the fruit of the seed, but even from him the mission is still NOT over (judgment day havent arrived yet.) "Mysteries hidden for generations now revealed".- Paul.. "Tell them that they are wrong about sin and about God's judgment"..- Jesus... Back in the days they were so sure God is vengefull and angry all the time, but jesus clarified who God really is and they just misunderstood because their hearts were closed minded and evil..Unless your open the door to God (your heart), he cant enter, u must welcome him before u can understand him...... Islam in the other hand is primitive, undeveloped...They are the same over 1,000 yrs ago, as they are today. Like a seed sown to a rock, it grows for a while but because there is no moisture to provide its growth, it dies and withers away... People's hearts are evil, which makes their knowledge stupid...
muscleman Guest Posts: n/a