How much water is it safe to drink per day?

Kuko 4000 · 4th December 2008, 02:36 AM

A friend of mine has started Robert O. Young's alkaline diet and is drinking a lot of water every day. She does a bit of yoga, but no sports. I'd like to know how much water she can drink per day before it gets dangerous, and what are the possible risks. I understand that she drinks quite a lot nowadays.

Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Young_(author)

http://www.phmiracleliving.com/

paximperium · 4th December 2008, 02:44 AM

Unfortunately it depends on the individual. Most severe cases of death from water intoxication occurs from drinking massive amounts of water acutely. If you drink water gradually, it will lead to a gradual drop in your serum sodium but will not be as catastrophic as sudden massive water intake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyponatremia

Professor Yaffle · 4th December 2008, 02:50 AM

It is impossible to give an exact figure, as it will be different for different people and in different circumstances. I think it also matters how fast you drink it, rather than just how much you drink over a day. How much is she drinking?

Professor Yaffle · 4th December 2008, 02:58 AM

????????

Quote:

Question: Will electron-rich alkaline water disrupt digestion by diluting the hydrochloric stomach acid.
Dr. Young : The stomach is not an organ of digestion but an organ of contribution. The main contribution from the stomach is the secretion of sodium bicarbonate to alkalize the food and liquids ingested. The hydrochloric acid in the stomach is a waste product of sodium bicarbonate production and falls into the gastric pits of the stomach away from the food and drink ingested. Hydrochloric acid destroys the energy potential of the food or drink making it unfit for transformation into stem cells. When you drink electron-rich alkaline water you help alkalize the food and drink ingested and you buffer the hydrochloric acid in the stomach. This then aids the stomach in alkalizing the food and drink and preparing it for biological transformation into stems cells. This transformation into stem cells can only take place in an electron-rich alkaline environment. Therefore, drinking electron-rich alkaline water aids in the reduction of acid, including hydrochloric acid, and aids in the preparation of the food in the stomach and then in the small intestine for transformation into stem cells and then red blood cells.

http://www.phmiracleliving.com/t-faq-water.aspx

Modified · 4th December 2008, 03:08 AM

I got into trouble once on a hot day after running and lifting, sweating a lot, and drinking about two gallons of plain water. This was in the days before sports drinks were popular. All the muscles in my forearms locked up and I had heart palpitations and a very high body temperature. Drinking a Coke got me back to normal after a half hour or so.

More to the point though,

Quote:

The main contribution from the stomach is the secretion of sodium bicarbonate to alkalize the food and liquids ingested.

Mr Clingford · 4th December 2008, 03:32 AM

If you live in Harare, none at all. Stupid nasty Mugabe.

Kuko 4000 · 4th December 2008, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

I think it also matters how fast you drink it, rather than just how much you drink over a day. How much is she drinking?

I will ask more details about these. She is not feeling too well now, ironic, because one of his (Young's) main claims is that you will not get sick if you follow his advice. That guy just pisses me off.

Professor Yaffle · 4th December 2008, 03:44 AM

Also ask if she is lowering her salt consumption, as that will be a factor too.

Quote:

Dawn Page, 52, a mother of two, claimed she was told to drink an extra four pints of water each day, and reduce her salt intake, after consulting the therapist, Barbara Nash, about losing weight.
Her lawyers said she suffered uncontrolled vomiting within days of being placed on "The Amazing Hydration Diet", but was assured her sickness was simply "part of the detoxification process".
She claimed she was later told to increase the amount of water she drank to six pints per day.
However, less than a week after she started the diet, the former conference organiser, of Faringdon, Oxon, said she suffered an epileptic fit brought on by severe sodium deficiency.
She was treated in intensive care, but doctors were unable to prevent permanent brain damage.
She has been left with damage to her memory, concentration and her ability to speak normally and was forced to quit her job, relying instead on her husband Geoffrey, 54, for help.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...s-800,000.html

Kuko 4000 · 4th December 2008, 05:19 AM

Ok, she says she drinks approximately 2 litres a day and has not changed her salt consumption. I suspect she is not telling the truth, but that's all I have.

paximperium · 4th December 2008, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by Kuko 4000

Ok, she says she drinks approximately 2 litres a day and has not changed her salt consumption. I suspect she is not telling the truth, but that's all I have.

Pnly 2Liters? I drink that amount most days.

Print out the water intoxication wiki page and let her read it. Maybe it'll beat some sense into her.

Professor Yaffle · 4th December 2008, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Kuko 4000

Ok, she says she drinks approximately 2 litres a day and has not changed her salt consumption. I suspect she is not telling the truth, but that's all I have.

If that's the truth, then she is unlikely to do herself any harm.

Kuko 4000 · 4th December 2008, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

If that's the truth, then she is unlikely to do herself any harm.

Yes, I know, and I hope she is telling the truth. I doubt her words though. I will try to translate some parts of the Wiki-article for her.

Tiktaalik · 4th December 2008, 02:40 PM

I started a thread a while back on this forum debunking water woo (but I don't know how to find it now). Most of the info came from http://www.ajpregu.org (the American Journal of Physiological Regulation etc.), search for Heinz Valtin, "Drink at least eight glasses of water a day." Really?

Basically, along with other water woo, he debunks the 8 eight-ounce galsses of water per day. He traces the origin of the belief to a 1945 Food & Nutrition Board council report which states, "A suitable allowance of water for adults is 2.5 liters daily in most instacnes. An ordinary standard for diverse persons is 1 milliliter for each calorie of food. Most of this quantity is contained in prepared foods." (emphasis mine).

People disregarded the last sentence and thought that they had to drink eight extra glasses of water per day. Anyway, an interesting read for all the other water woo (for example, the assertion that caffeinated drinks "don't count" - untrue...)

Soapy Sam · 4th December 2008, 04:20 PM

Ye gods, I probably drink 2 litres of espresso most days.

I'd say the main thing is not to drink much more water than you pee or sweat.

rjh01 · 4th December 2008, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Tiktaalik

I started a thread a while back on this forum debunking water woo (but I don't know how to find it now). Most of the info came from http://www.ajpregu.org (the American Journal of Physiological Regulation etc.), search for Heinz Valtin, "Drink at least eight glasses of water a day." Really?

Was it this thread?
Water Drinking Woo: 8 X 8

You only ever started four threads in this sub forum.

soylent · 5th December 2008, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

????????

http://www.phmiracleliving.com/t-faq-water.aspx

That's some of the most bizzare woo I've ever seen.

Cuddles · 5th December 2008, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by Kuko 4000

Ok, she says she drinks approximately 2 litres a day and has not changed her salt consumption. I suspect she is not telling the truth, but that's all I have.

Given the recommended daily intake as noted in Wiki, she's closer to not drinking enough than to drinking too much. Even downing that much in one go is unlikely to cause any harm.

Dancing David · 5th December 2008, 12:56 PM

Water intoxication is possible but takes some effort and very low sodium intake. Schizophrenia in some cases seems to cause the body mechanism to not regulate water intake and people become driven to drink water. Like gallons of it, then they pass out or have a heart attack. We had a client who had to be monitored, otherwise he would just belly up the sink and drink water from the faucet, for ten minutes. then he would pass out. Very dangerous, as is deliberate water intoxication.

Tiktaalik · 6th December 2008, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Was it this thread?
Water Drinking Woo: 8 X 8

You only ever started four threads in this sub forum.

Thanks.

I'm on a slow dial-up connection (no DSL here!) and the Search function usually doesn't work for me - it just hangs.

Soapy Sam · 7th December 2008, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Tiktaalik

Thanks.

I'm on a slow dial-up connection (no DSL here!) and the Search function usually doesn't work for me - it just hangs.

Whereabouts are you in Colorado?
A mate of mine runs remote broadband services from Loveland.

fuelair · 7th December 2008, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

????????

[b]
http://www.phmiracleliving.com/t-faq-water.aspx

The thing quoted is an idiot, a fool, an incompetant or a charleton - or some combination of the above. The only correct thing in his blather is that there is a stomach and it does contain HCl.

Dancing David · 7th December 2008, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Tiktaalik

Thanks.

I'm on a slow dial-up connection (no DSL here!) and the Search function usually doesn't work for me - it just hangs.

That is probably true for the higher speed connections as well, Google(plain old Google enter JREF and the thing you want to search) is a good way to search the recent forum.

ponderingturtle · 7th December 2008, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Kuko 4000

Ok, she says she drinks approximately 2 litres a day and has not changed her salt consumption. I suspect she is not telling the truth, but that's all I have.

Is that all she drinks? Adding 2 liters of water on top of a sufficient ammount of water from other drinks could be too much.

Is she forcing herself to drink water or not? Most people want to drink appropriate amounts of fluids naturally.

Tiktaalik · 7th December 2008, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Whereabouts are you in Colorado?
A mate of mine runs remote broadband services from Loveland.

Loveland? That's like, the Front Range, right? I'm 6-7 hours from Denver depending on weather...

The little community nearest me actually has DSL, but nobody is going to run it up to the 12 people & 11 dogs & cats that live up my road, about 2 miles out of town. Someday I'll go satellite...

So as not to derail, I'll add something relevant:

In the past few years, people hiking in parks & forests in the southwest, in arid, hot summer climates, have really gotten the message that they need to drink water. Now the problem is, people are drinking so much water, and forsaking eating, that they are getting hyponatremia.

IANAPhD, but:
There are two different forms of hyponatremia, which basically occurs when you dilute the electrolyte balance in your bloodstream so that the correct proportions of electrolytes, minerals, etc., aren't there, which can be detrimental to your muscles, including heart, and brain function.

In the first form, say you are a firefighter and you run in and work very hard in a very hot environment for a relatively short time period. You recognize you are sweating a lot and drink a large amount to counteract that, but don't eat. Later, you get acute hyponatremia - which can often be cured by eating, peeing, and resting for a few days.

In the second form, say you are a construction worker on a hot roof. Every day you drink a little more water than you need, but in the evening you eat enough to almost make up for it, but not quite. So there is this undulating graph-line of blood electrolytes, with a downward trend. Eventually you end up with hyponatremia, and this kind is harder to cure and can kill you (not sure why).

So the over-drnking lady could be slowly putting herself into hyponatremia...

CORed · 21st December 2008, 07:36 PM

I would like to suggest a radical new approach to determining how much water to drink: Drink water when you are thirsty, and stop when you feel like you've had enough. Amazingly enough, millions of years of evolution have equipped your body to signal you when it needs water and when you have had enough. I have found that this revolutionary technique works when I am exercising intensely or when I'm sedentary.

casebro · 21st December 2008, 08:44 PM

When I'm worried about my hydration, it's usually when I've submerged myself in some heavy work. Zen and not paying attention to my thirst? Finally I'll be hopping around trying not to wet my pants. At those times I make sure I drink enough to pass clear, not yellow, urine. I figure If I'm flushing out my system once a day to the point of clarity, I'm not building up any harmful amount of by-products. Some urine-manaics think they have to never ever pass yellow urine, but I think that is extreme.

fls · 21st December 2008, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

When I'm worried about my hydration, it's usually when I've submerged myself in some heavy work. Zen and not paying attention to my thirst? Finally I'll be hopping around trying not to wet my pants. At those times I make sure I drink enough to pass clear, not yellow, urine. I figure If I'm flushing out my system once a day to the point of clarity, I'm not building up any harmful amount of by-products. Some urine-manaics think they have to never ever pass yellow urine, but I think that is extreme.

Water does not 'flush' anything out of your system. Substances are removed by the kidney and placed in the urine independently of the system that removes water and places it in the urine (which occurs in a different part of the kidney). The only reason your urine appears less yellow is because it contains all the excess water that you have drunk. The absolute amount of harmful by-products passing into the urine is unchanged, it is merely diluted.

Linda

rjh01 · 21st December 2008, 09:26 PM

I think you are both right. It is not about getting rid of toxins. It is making sure that you are not dehydrated. Drinking enough so that you pass clear urine once a day will ensure that.

The problem with drinking until you are not thirsty is that it can be hard to tell the difference between feeling hungry and thirsty. Or ignoring such feelings entirely. Yellow urine is a feedback method between my kidney and me.

Modified · 22nd December 2008, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

The problem with drinking until you are not thirsty is that it can be hard to tell the difference between feeling hungry and thirsty.

And unfortunately, a salt imbalance can make you feel something that is very close to thirst.

Soapy Sam · 23rd December 2008, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by CORed

I would like to suggest a radical new approach to determining how much water to drink: Drink water when you are thirsty, and stop when you feel like you've had enough. Amazingly enough, millions of years of evolution have equipped your body to signal you when it needs water and when you have had enough. I have found that this revolutionary technique works when I am exercising intensely or when I'm sedentary.

You realise if you tart that up with some buzzwords like "quantum" you have the basis of a diet book and a possible career as a nutritionist guru?

GreyICE · 23rd December 2008, 08:45 AM

I drink probably close to a gallon of liquid a day when all is said and done. I dunno why, I just hate having dry lips and so when I feel thirsty or have a dry mouth I drink.

Never really hurt me. I don't try to chug it or do it all in 2 hrs or something.

Kestrel · 23rd December 2008, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

I think you are both right. It is not about getting rid of toxins. It is making sure that you are not dehydrated. Drinking enough so that you pass clear urine once a day will ensure that.

The problem with drinking until you are not thirsty is that it can be hard to tell the difference between feeling hungry and thirsty. Or ignoring such feelings entirely. Yellow urine is a feedback method between my kidney and me.

Is there a scientific basis for your belief that yellow urine is a bad sign?

rjh01 · 23rd December 2008, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Is there a scientific basis for your belief that yellow urine is a bad sign?

If you are after a double blind test on the subject, good luck.

However a quick google on "Yellow urine" dehydration (quotes included) came up with heaps of hits. These include

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine

Quote:

The color and volume of urine can be reliable indicators of hydration level. Clear and copious urine is generally a sign of adequate hydration, dark urine is a sign of dehydration. The exception is when alcohol, caffeine, or other diuretics are consumed, in which case urine can be clear and copious and the person still be dehydrated.

http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/tired.htm
Dehydration is caused by not drinking enough fluids. Hot and dry or hot and humid weather and a hot sun can cause rapid fluid loss. The symptoms are thirstiness, dizziness, and a washed-out feeling, although sometimes thirst is suppressed. Drink lots of fluids, especially water, wet your clothing, and get some rest out of the sun. A myth is that yellow urine indicates dehydration: yellow urine is caused by vitamins and other dissolved solids, not dehydration. Waiting until you need to urinate or even until you get thirsty is unwise; make a habit in hot weather of sipping water constantly and of stopping for drinks frequently.

See also
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_bright_yellow_urine_normal

nzric · 23rd December 2008, 07:04 PM

In multisport events, especially half and full ironman, hyponatremia is a very real problem and at least one or two people get hospitalised for it in most large events.

Pro multisport athletes are basically volunteer guinea pigs for the effect of under- and over-hydration. I'd suggest you go to some triathlon and ironman sites and look at their recommendation of hydration & sodium/electrolyte replacement based on the amount/intensity of exercise (if any) your friend is doing.

http://ironman.com/holdingcell/2005/...big-difference

Kestrel · 23rd December 2008, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

If you are after a double blind test on the subject, good luck.

However a quick google on "Yellow urine" dehydration (quotes included) came up with heaps of hits. These include

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine

Quote:

Quote:
The color and volume of urine can be reliable indicators of hydration level. Clear and copious urine is generally a sign of adequate hydration, dark urine is a sign of dehydration. The exception is when alcohol, caffeine, or other diuretics are consumed, in which case urine can be clear and copious and the person still be dehydrated.

Is this quote based on science, or just a statement of common belief?

The quote you provided is not backed up by citations or footnotes. Wikipedia even warns us about that at the top of the article. It also implies that drinking caffeinated beverages doesn't count. That is a widely held belief, but it has been shown that the type of beverage doesn't really affect hydration levels. Given this, we should probably look elsewhere for a scientific explanation.

The other two links you provided suffer from the same problem.

Searching the web for actual science can be rather frustrating with this kind of question.

autumn1971 · 23rd December 2008, 10:44 PM

Ya know, if I ever engage in an activity that makes me seriously consider if my body's signals may be causing me to inadvertantly kill myself, I STOP DOING THAT THING.

Really.
nzric, if there are actually that many people being hospitalized during triathalons, then triathalons are at least as serious a public health problem as heroin addiction, and should probably be stopped. And marathons? Has anyone ever looked at a marathoner and thought, "I want be so healthy that I look like that"?

Yes, it's impressive, just don't try to sell me on the "it's for my health" BS.

arthwollipot · 23rd December 2008, 10:48 PM

Good grief. I think I'd explode if I tried to drink two liters of water every day!

nzric · 23rd December 2008, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

Really.
nzric, if there are actually that many people being hospitalized during triathalons, then triathalons are at least as serious a public health problem as heroin addiction, and should probably be stopped. And marathons? Has anyone ever looked at a marathoner and thought, "I want be so healthy that I look like that"?

Yes, it's impressive, just don't try to sell me on the "it's for my health" BS.

Gawd autumn1971, if I did multisport for my health I wouldn't be sitting here with a heat pack on my knee and a huge physio bill

Ironman races actually reduced the amount of over-hydration by a huge amount by putting restrictions on the spacing of aid stations.

History of hyponatremia and marathons. 13% hyponatremia rate at Boston marathon 2002!:
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...8785-0,00.html

Kestrel · 24th December 2008, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by nzric

I'd suggest you go to some triathlon and ironman sites and look at their recommendation of hydration & sodium/electrolyte replacement based on the amount/intensity of exercise (if any) your friend is doing.

My suggestion would be to read the American College of Sports Medicine position stand on Exercise and Fluid Replacement.

But then again, I like to read long articles full of technical jargon that include several pages of references.

Tiktaalik · 25th December 2008, 03:40 PM

"Myth: Dark Urine Means Dehydration"

from the same source cited above in the 8 X 8 thread (Valtin, Heinz and Sheila A. Gorman; "Drink at least eight glasses of water a day." Really? Is there scientific evidence for 8 X 8? in American Journal of Physiology at http://www.ajpregu.org 2002)

"...the depth of color in urine will vary inversely with the urinary volume."

"...volume varies greatly among individuals,..."

"...at the above-cited normal urinary volume and osmolality, the plasma osmolality will be well within the normal range and nowhere near the values...which are seen in menaingful dehydration..."

"Therefore, the warning that dark urine reflects dehydration is alarmist and false in most instances."

It doesn't say the statement is always incorrect, only usually/normally incorrect.

Also note:

"It is often stated in the lay press...and even in professional journals that by the time a person is thirsty that person is already dehydrated...Osmotic regulation of vasopressin secretion and thirst is so sensitive, qucik, and accurate that it is hard to imagine that evolutionary development left us with a chronic water deficit that has to be compensated by forcing fluid intake."

4th December 2008, 02:36 AM	#1
Kuko 4000 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 1,551	How much water is it safe to drink per day? A friend of mine has started Robert O. Young's alkaline diet and is drinking a lot of water every day. She does a bit of yoga, but no sports. I'd like to know how much water she can drink per day before it gets dangerous, and what are the possible risks. I understand that she drinks quite a lot nowadays. Thanks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Young_(author) http://www.phmiracleliving.com/
	__________________ Richard Dawkins: "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Pixie of key: "HOW IS YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT I AM GIVING LECTURES ON A PROBLEM."

4th December 2008, 02:44 AM	#2
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,727	Unfortunately it depends on the individual. Most severe cases of death from water intoxication occurs from drinking massive amounts of water acutely. If you drink water gradually, it will lead to a gradual drop in your serum sodium but will not be as catastrophic as sudden massive water intake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyponatremia
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

4th December 2008, 02:50 AM	#3
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,341	It is impossible to give an exact figure, as it will be different for different people and in different circumstances. I think it also matters how fast you drink it, rather than just how much you drink over a day. How much is she drinking?
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat

4th December 2008, 02:58 AM	#4
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,341	???????? Quote: Question: Will electron-rich alkaline water disrupt digestion by diluting the hydrochloric stomach acid. Dr. Young : The stomach is not an organ of digestion but an organ of contribution. The main contribution from the stomach is the secretion of sodium bicarbonate to alkalize the food and liquids ingested. The hydrochloric acid in the stomach is a waste product of sodium bicarbonate production and falls into the gastric pits of the stomach away from the food and drink ingested. Hydrochloric acid destroys the energy potential of the food or drink making it unfit for transformation into stem cells. When you drink electron-rich alkaline water you help alkalize the food and drink ingested and you buffer the hydrochloric acid in the stomach. This then aids the stomach in alkalizing the food and drink and preparing it for biological transformation into stems cells. This transformation into stem cells can only take place in an electron-rich alkaline environment. Therefore, drinking electron-rich alkaline water aids in the reduction of acid, including hydrochloric acid, and aids in the preparation of the food in the stomach and then in the small intestine for transformation into stem cells and then red blood cells. http://www.phmiracleliving.com/t-faq-water.aspx
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat

4th December 2008, 03:32 AM	#6
Mr Clingford Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: UK Posts: 1,691	If you live in Harare, none at all. Stupid nasty Mugabe.
	__________________ God is my copilot. But we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat him.

4th December 2008, 03:08 AM	#5
Modified Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 4,062	I got into trouble once on a hot day after running and lifting, sweating a lot, and drinking about two gallons of plain water. This was in the days before sports drinks were popular. All the muscles in my forearms locked up and I had heart palpitations and a very high body temperature. Drinking a Coke got me back to normal after a half hour or so. More to the point though, Quote: The main contribution from the stomach is the secretion of sodium bicarbonate to alkalize the food and liquids ingested.

4th December 2008, 03:40 AM	#7
Kuko 4000 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 1,551	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle I think it also matters how fast you drink it, rather than just how much you drink over a day. How much is she drinking? I will ask more details about these. She is not feeling too well now, ironic, because one of his (Young's) main claims is that you will not get sick if you follow his advice. That guy just pisses me off.
	__________________ Richard Dawkins: "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Pixie of key: "HOW IS YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT I AM GIVING LECTURES ON A PROBLEM."

4th December 2008, 03:44 AM	#8
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,341	Also ask if she is lowering her salt consumption, as that will be a factor too. Quote: Dawn Page, 52, a mother of two, claimed she was told to drink an extra four pints of water each day, and reduce her salt intake, after consulting the therapist, Barbara Nash, about losing weight. Her lawyers said she suffered uncontrolled vomiting within days of being placed on "The Amazing Hydration Diet", but was assured her sickness was simply "part of the detoxification process". She claimed she was later told to increase the amount of water she drank to six pints per day. However, less than a week after she started the diet, the former conference organiser, of Faringdon, Oxon, said she suffered an epileptic fit brought on by severe sodium deficiency. She was treated in intensive care, but doctors were unable to prevent permanent brain damage. She has been left with damage to her memory, concentration and her ability to speak normally and was forced to quit her job, relying instead on her husband Geoffrey, 54, for help. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...s-800,000.html
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat Last edited by Professor Yaffle; 4th December 2008 at 03:45 AM.

4th December 2008, 05:19 AM	#9
Kuko 4000 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 1,551	Ok, she says she drinks approximately 2 litres a day and has not changed her salt consumption. I suspect she is not telling the truth, but that's all I have.
	__________________ Richard Dawkins: "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Pixie of key: "HOW IS YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT I AM GIVING LECTURES ON A PROBLEM."

4th December 2008, 05:28 AM	#10
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,727	Originally Posted by Kuko 4000 Ok, she says she drinks approximately 2 litres a day and has not changed her salt consumption. I suspect she is not telling the truth, but that's all I have. Pnly 2Liters? I drink that amount most days. Print out the water intoxication wiki page and let her read it. Maybe it'll beat some sense into her.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

4th December 2008, 05:29 AM	#11
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,341	Originally Posted by Kuko 4000 Ok, she says she drinks approximately 2 litres a day and has not changed her salt consumption. I suspect she is not telling the truth, but that's all I have. If that's the truth, then she is unlikely to do herself any harm.
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat

4th December 2008, 06:09 AM	#12
Kuko 4000 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 1,551	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle If that's the truth, then she is unlikely to do herself any harm. Yes, I know, and I hope she is telling the truth. I doubt her words though. I will try to translate some parts of the Wiki-article for her.
	__________________ Richard Dawkins: "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Pixie of key: "HOW IS YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT I AM GIVING LECTURES ON A PROBLEM."

4th December 2008, 02:40 PM	#13
Tiktaalik Half True Scotsperson Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,987	I started a thread a while back on this forum debunking water woo (but I don't know how to find it now). Most of the info came from http://www.ajpregu.org (the American Journal of Physiological Regulation etc.), search for Heinz Valtin, "Drink at least eight glasses of water a day." Really? Basically, along with other water woo, he debunks the 8 eight-ounce galsses of water per day. He traces the origin of the belief to a 1945 Food & Nutrition Board council report which states, "A suitable allowance of water for adults is 2.5 liters daily in most instacnes. An ordinary standard for diverse persons is 1 milliliter for each calorie of food. *Most of this quantity is contained in prepared foods*." (emphasis mine). People disregarded the last sentence and thought that they had to drink eight extra glasses of water per day. Anyway, an interesting read for all the other water woo (for example, the assertion that caffeinated drinks "don't count" - untrue...)

4th December 2008, 04:20 PM	#14
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Ye gods, I probably drink 2 litres of espresso most days. I'd say the main thing is not to drink much more water than you pee or sweat.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

4th December 2008, 10:49 PM	#15
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,179	Originally Posted by Tiktaalik I started a thread a while back on this forum debunking water woo (but I don't know how to find it now). Most of the info came from http://www.ajpregu.org (the American Journal of Physiological Regulation etc.), search for Heinz Valtin, "Drink at least eight glasses of water a day." Really? Was it this thread? Water Drinking Woo: 8 X 8 You only ever started four threads in this sub forum.

5th December 2008, 01:44 AM	#16
soylent Muse Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 962	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle ???????? http://www.phmiracleliving.com/t-faq-water.aspx That's some of the most bizzare woo I've ever seen.
	__________________ "A lot of those lobbyists genuinely like people. But then, fleas like people too." - Mike Munger.

5th December 2008, 03:53 AM	#17
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,580	Originally Posted by Kuko 4000 Ok, she says she drinks approximately 2 litres a day and has not changed her salt consumption. I suspect she is not telling the truth, but that's all I have. Given the recommended daily intake as noted in Wiki, she's closer to not drinking enough than to drinking too much. Even downing that much in one go is unlikely to cause any harm.
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

5th December 2008, 12:56 PM	#18
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,708	Water intoxication is possible but takes some effort and very low sodium intake. Schizophrenia in some cases seems to cause the body mechanism to not regulate water intake and people become driven to drink water. Like gallons of it, then they pass out or have a heart attack. We had a client who had to be monitored, otherwise he would just belly up the sink and drink water from the faucet, for ten minutes. then he would pass out. Very dangerous, as is deliberate water intoxication.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

6th December 2008, 06:46 PM	#19
Tiktaalik Half True Scotsperson Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,987	Originally Posted by rjh01 Was it this thread? Water Drinking Woo: 8 X 8 You only ever started four threads in this sub forum. Thanks. I'm on a slow dial-up connection (no DSL here!) and the Search function usually doesn't work for me - it just hangs.

7th December 2008, 11:16 AM	#20
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Originally Posted by Tiktaalik Thanks. I'm on a slow dial-up connection (no DSL here!) and the Search function usually doesn't work for me - it just hangs. Whereabouts are you in Colorado? A mate of mine runs remote broadband services from Loveland.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

7th December 2008, 11:29 AM	#21
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,932	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle ???????? [b] http://www.phmiracleliving.com/t-faq-water.aspx The thing quoted is an idiot, a fool, an incompetant or a charleton - or some combination of the above. The only correct thing in his blather is that there is a stomach and it does contain HCl.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,932	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!! Last edited by fuelair; 7th December 2008 at 11:30 AM. Reason: add The

7th December 2008, 01:51 PM	#22
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,708	Originally Posted by Tiktaalik Thanks. I'm on a slow dial-up connection (no DSL here!) and the Search function usually doesn't work for me - it just hangs. That is probably true for the higher speed connections as well, Google(plain old Google enter JREF and the thing you want to search) is a good way to search the recent forum.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

7th December 2008, 02:05 PM	#23
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,424	Originally Posted by Kuko 4000 Ok, she says she drinks approximately 2 litres a day and has not changed her salt consumption. I suspect she is not telling the truth, but that's all I have. Is that all she drinks? Adding 2 liters of water on top of a sufficient ammount of water from other drinks could be too much. Is she forcing herself to drink water or not? Most people want to drink appropriate amounts of fluids naturally.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

7th December 2008, 04:27 PM	#24
Tiktaalik Half True Scotsperson Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,987	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Whereabouts are you in Colorado? A mate of mine runs remote broadband services from Loveland. Loveland? That's like, the Front Range, right? I'm 6-7 hours from Denver depending on weather... The little community nearest me actually has DSL, but nobody is going to run it up to the 12 people & 11 dogs & cats that live up my road, about 2 miles out of town. Someday I'll go satellite... So as not to derail, I'll add something relevant: In the past few years, people hiking in parks & forests in the southwest, in arid, hot summer climates, have really gotten the message that they need to drink water. Now the problem is, people are drinking so much water, and forsaking eating, that they are getting hyponatremia. IANAPhD, but: There are two different forms of hyponatremia, which basically occurs when you dilute the electrolyte balance in your bloodstream so that the correct proportions of electrolytes, minerals, etc., aren't there, which can be detrimental to your muscles, including heart, and brain function. In the first form, say you are a firefighter and you run in and work very hard in a very hot environment for a relatively short time period. You recognize you are sweating a lot and drink a large amount to counteract that, but don't eat. Later, you get acute hyponatremia - which can often be cured by eating, peeing, and resting for a few days. In the second form, say you are a construction worker on a hot roof. Every day you drink a little more water than you need, but in the evening you eat enough to almost make up for it, but not quite. So there is this undulating graph-line of blood electrolytes, with a downward trend. Eventually you end up with hyponatremia, and this kind is harder to cure and can kill you (not sure why). So the over-drnking lady could be slowly putting herself into hyponatremia...

21st December 2008, 07:36 PM	#25
CORed Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,289	I would like to suggest a radical new approach to determining how much water to drink: Drink water when you are thirsty, and stop when you feel like you've had enough. Amazingly enough, millions of years of evolution have equipped your body to signal you when it needs water and when you have had enough. I have found that this revolutionary technique works when I am exercising intensely or when I'm sedentary.
CORed Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,289

21st December 2008, 08:44 PM	#26
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,792	When I'm worried about my hydration, it's usually when I've submerged myself in some heavy work. Zen and not paying attention to my thirst? Finally I'll be hopping around trying not to wet my pants. At those times I make sure I drink enough to pass clear, not yellow, urine. I figure If I'm flushing out my system once a day to the point of clarity, I'm not building up any harmful amount of by-products. Some urine-manaics think they have to never ever pass yellow urine, but I think that is extreme.
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,792	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

21st December 2008, 08:51 PM	#27
fls Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10,236	Originally Posted by casebro When I'm worried about my hydration, it's usually when I've submerged myself in some heavy work. Zen and not paying attention to my thirst? Finally I'll be hopping around trying not to wet my pants. At those times I make sure I drink enough to pass clear, not yellow, urine. I figure If I'm flushing out my system once a day to the point of clarity, I'm not building up any harmful amount of by-products. Some urine-manaics think they have to never ever pass yellow urine, but I think that is extreme. Water does not 'flush' anything out of your system. Substances are removed by the kidney and placed in the urine independently of the system that removes water and places it in the urine (which occurs in a different part of the kidney). The only reason your urine appears less yellow is because it contains all the excess water that you have drunk. The absolute amount of harmful by-products passing into the urine is unchanged, it is merely diluted. Linda
	__________________ God:a capricious creative or controlling force said to be the subject of a religion. Evidence is anything that tends to make a proposition more or less true.-Loss Leader SCAM will now be referred to as DIM (Demonstrably Ineffective Medicine) Look how nicely I'm not reminding you you're dumb.-Happy Bunny When I give an example, do not assume I am excluding every other possible example. Thank you.

21st December 2008, 09:26 PM	#28
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,179	I think you are both right. It is not about getting rid of toxins. It is making sure that you are not dehydrated. Drinking enough so that you pass clear urine once a day will ensure that. The problem with drinking until you are not thirsty is that it can be hard to tell the difference between feeling hungry and thirsty. Or ignoring such feelings entirely. Yellow urine is a feedback method between my kidney and me.

22nd December 2008, 07:00 PM	#29
Modified Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 4,062	Originally Posted by rjh01 The problem with drinking until you are not thirsty is that it can be hard to tell the difference between feeling hungry and thirsty. And unfortunately, a salt imbalance can make you feel something that is very close to thirst.

23rd December 2008, 08:38 AM	#30
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Originally Posted by CORed I would like to suggest a radical new approach to determining how much water to drink: Drink water when you are thirsty, and stop when you feel like you've had enough. Amazingly enough, millions of years of evolution have equipped your body to signal you when it needs water and when you have had enough. I have found that this revolutionary technique works when I am exercising intensely or when I'm sedentary. You realise if you tart that up with some buzzwords like "quantum" you have the basis of a diet book and a possible career as a nutritionist guru?
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

23rd December 2008, 08:45 AM	#31
GreyICE Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,173	I drink probably close to a gallon of liquid a day when all is said and done. I dunno why, I just hate having dry lips and so when I feel thirsty or have a dry mouth I drink. Never really hurt me. I don't try to chug it or do it all in 2 hrs or something.
GreyICE Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,173

23rd December 2008, 09:08 AM	#32
Kestrel Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: DM79 Posts: 4,203	Originally Posted by rjh01 I think you are both right. It is not about getting rid of toxins. It is making sure that you are not dehydrated. Drinking enough so that you pass clear urine once a day will ensure that. The problem with drinking until you are not thirsty is that it can be hard to tell the difference between feeling hungry and thirsty. Or ignoring such feelings entirely. Yellow urine is a feedback method between my kidney and me. Is there a scientific basis for your belief that yellow urine is a bad sign?

23rd December 2008, 05:23 PM	#33
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,179	Originally Posted by Kestrel Is there a scientific basis for your belief that yellow urine is a bad sign? If you are after a double blind test on the subject, good luck. However a quick google on "Yellow urine" dehydration (quotes included) came up with heaps of hits. These include http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine Quote: The color and volume of urine can be reliable indicators of hydration level. Clear and copious urine is generally a sign of adequate hydration, dark urine is a sign of dehydration. The exception is when alcohol, caffeine, or other diuretics are consumed, in which case urine can be clear and copious and the person still be dehydrated. http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/tired.htm Dehydration is caused by not drinking enough fluids. Hot and dry or hot and humid weather and a hot sun can cause rapid fluid loss. The symptoms are thirstiness, dizziness, and a washed-out feeling, although sometimes thirst is suppressed. Drink lots of fluids, especially water, wet your clothing, and get some rest out of the sun. A myth is that yellow urine indicates dehydration: yellow urine is caused by vitamins and other dissolved solids, not dehydration. Waiting until you need to urinate or even until you get thirsty is unwise; make a habit in hot weather of sipping water constantly and of stopping for drinks frequently. See also http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_bright_yellow_urine_normal

23rd December 2008, 07:04 PM	#34
nzric Thinker Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 214	In multisport events, especially half and full ironman, hyponatremia is a very real problem and at least one or two people get hospitalised for it in most large events. Pro multisport athletes are basically volunteer guinea pigs for the effect of under- and over-hydration. I'd suggest you go to some triathlon and ironman sites and look at their recommendation of hydration & sodium/electrolyte replacement based on the amount/intensity of exercise (if any) your friend is doing. http://ironman.com/holdingcell/2005/...big-difference
nzric Thinker Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 214	__________________ A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.

23rd December 2008, 10:18 PM	#35
Kestrel Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: DM79 Posts: 4,203	Originally Posted by rjh01 If you are after a double blind test on the subject, good luck. However a quick google on "Yellow urine" dehydration (quotes included) came up with heaps of hits. These include http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine Quote: Quote: The color and volume of urine can be reliable indicators of hydration level. Clear and copious urine is generally a sign of adequate hydration, dark urine is a sign of dehydration. The exception is when alcohol, caffeine, or other diuretics are consumed, in which case urine can be clear and copious and the person still be dehydrated. Is this quote based on science, or just a statement of common belief? The quote you provided is not backed up by citations or footnotes. Wikipedia even warns us about that at the top of the article. It also implies that drinking caffeinated beverages doesn't count. That is a widely held belief, but it has been shown that the type of beverage doesn't really affect hydration levels. Given this, we should probably look elsewhere for a scientific explanation. The other two links you provided suffer from the same problem. Searching the web for actual science can be rather frustrating with this kind of question.