Gimlin's Yakima Bigfoot Party

[makaya325]

Originally Posted by wolftrax

The funny thing is Bobo's post was wrought with errors.

Gimlin didn't say Patty was 7 1/2", Krantz wrote that Gimlin gave an estimate of 6'1" or 2".

And Bob Heironimus isn't 5'10", according to Long's Book he is.... 6'2"

I thought Gimlin thought the "Creature" was around 6ft 5? Do you have any quotes from Gimlin.

[GT/CS]

Originally Posted by makaya325

I thought Gimlin thought the "Creature" was around 6ft 5? Do you have any quotes from Gimlin.

If you are disputing the claim you should provide the backup for the 6'-5" figure.

[LTC8K6]

1st article. 6.5-7 feet. Not very giant...

Quote:

Patterson said the creature stood upright the entire time, reaching a height of about six and a half to seven feet and an estimated weight of between 350 and 400 pounds.

Nov 67 interview. It was like a giant man. Estimated at 6'9"... Not very giant.

Quote:

R: Yes, it seemed to be, to me, more like a giant man except it had breasts.

Quote:

B: They did on the height, measuring by the soles of those feet, in the picture, and they estimated the height to be approximately six foot, nine inches.

[LTC8K6]

Sanderson interview, 7' and only 350 pounds.

Quote:

On the other side of the creek, back up against the trees, there was a sort of man-creature that we estimated later, by measuring some logs that appear in the film, to have been about seven feet tall. Both Bob and I estimate--and this pretty well matched what others told us from examination of the depth to which her tracks sank into hard sand--that she would weigh about three hundred and fifty pounds.

BTW, I just realized that Patterson must be lying here. Who went to the site and examined the depth of the tracks to determine Patty's weight? What others? Did Laverty do an analysis? Titmus doesn't get there until the tracks are many days old and not useful for such an analysis. We can see that this is the case from his casts. So who examined the track depth to come up with a weight for Patty?

This interview was not too long after the incident and published in the Feb 68 magazine.

[LTC8K6]

I don't recall anyone analyzing the "stomp test" either, other than Gimlin.

[LTC8K6]

I left out a relevant bit. Roger chimed in and said the 6'9" estimate was based on a 14" foot, and Patty's foot was actually 14.5", so she must be a lot taller than 6'9".

But who didn't know that the casts were 14.5" long and used 14" to estimate?

Quote:

B: They did on the height, measuring by the soles of those feet, in the picture, and they estimated the height to be approximately six foot, nine inches.

W: What was the length of the stride?

R: Just pardon me, this was estimated on a fourteen and a half inch, excuse me a fourteen inch track and these tracks were fourteen and a half inches, which would, would add quite a considerable bit

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

Originally Posted by makaya325

Im sorry, but 7ft 300 lbs isnt exactly giant, its quite thin. Perhaps the Policeman's vision was not accurate?

You seem to be missing the point: People can goof in their descriptions by overestimating things. The details for the "Bigfoot" seen by the police officer did not match the actual dimensions of the teenager in the suit. If a police officer (who tend to be trained to be careful observers) can make such a goof, it hardly stretches the imagination to have others make similar (or worse) mistakes.

Originally Posted by vortigern99

I would just like to thank AMM for his fine, scathing, face-palming rebuttal to Bobo's reprehensible drivel.

I'd like to thank Vortigern99 for both his compliment and for also explaining things to makaya. However, I facepalmed myself for not realizing the facts relayed by wolftrax:

Originally Posted by wolftrax

The funny thing is Bobo's post was wrought with errors.

Gimlin didn't say Patty was 7 1/2", Krantz wrote that Gimlin gave an estimate of 6'1" or 2".

And Bob Heironimus isn't 5'10", according to Long's Book he is.... 6'2"

[wolftrax]

Originally Posted by Grover Krantz, Big Footprints pg. 96

In sharp contrast, Patterson thought his subject was 7 feet 4 inches tall, while Gimlin estimated it at 6 feet 1 or 2 inches (223.5 vs. 184 cm.).

Then you have Green's interview with Gimlin:

Quote:

I thought is[sic] was about six and a half feet tall and I would have guessed it's weight at 250 to 300 punds.
http://www.bigfootencounters.com/interviews/john.htm

So you have some variation of a few inches, but quite a ways from 7 1/2 feet tall.

No need for face palming, Atomic, there have been so many wildly variable estimates of Patty's size that it is hard to keep track.

[RayG]

Originally Posted by makaya325

I thought Gimlin thought the "Creature" was around 6ft 5? Do you have any quotes from Gimlin.

In addition to Krantz, Byrne (The Search for Bigfoot, 1975, page 140), also indicated that Gimlin thought the subject was 6' 1" or 6' 2".

Both Green (see previous link from wolftrax) and Meldrum (Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science, 2007, page 141) have Gimlin's estimate at 6'6".

Meldrum however, shrugs off Gimlin's estimates, and instead favors the 7-foot+ guesstimates arrived at by Murphy and Glickman.

RayG

[Astrophotographer]

To me the idea of giving estimates down to the nearest inch is just plain absurd. It is almost is if the witness knew the height before hand. If you saw somebody on the street, you would not guess their height at 6'1" or 6'2". You would probably say he was about 6-foot or maybe between 6 foot and 6-1/2 foot. You also might hint that he was just over 6-foot. I don't know many people who give such precise estimates on a persons height unless they are standing near them.

[makaya325]

Originally Posted by RayG

In addition to Krantz, Byrne (The Search for Bigfoot, 1975, page 140), also indicated that Gimlin thought the subject was 6' 1" or 6' 2".

Both Green (see previous link from wolftrax) and Meldrum (Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science, 2007, page 141) have Gimlin's estimate at 6'6".

Meldrum however, shrugs off Gimlin's estimates, and instead favors the 7-foot+ guesstimates arrived at by Murphy and Glickman.

RayG

I hope all of us get to know Bob's real estimate

[RayG]

It wouldn't make any difference.

RayG

[JohnWS]

Originally Posted by Astrophotographer

It is almost is if the witness knew the height before hand.

I wish I could find a link - but isn't it the case that during a frightening situation, our biology makes us assess the situation by estimating the maximum threat* we are likely to have to deal with?

So - when encountering a 'creature' no bigger than* seven feet (it may have actually been 6 ft) after the emotional needle settles, it can leave the impression that the encounter was actually with a seven foot individual.

[Vortigern99]

As I mentioned before, I'm 6'7" -- which means I get a lot of people (usually women, LOL) remarking "Wow! You're tall"" and/or asking me how tall I am*. For the last few years, my usual response has been: "Can you guess?" I then straighten to my full height, inviting the questioner, and anyone with them, to offer their best estimate.

Anecdotally (that is, without recording their responses on the spot), I can report that with the first try, most people get within 2 inches of my actual height; that is, they estimate 6'5" to 6'9". Sometimes I get a really ridiculous guess, like "7 feet?", but for the most part, people are fairly accurate in their estimation.

That said, this generally occurs with people who are 1 - 3 feet away from me at the time, so perhaps this example does not make the best analogy with the on-site estimation of Patty's height... especially from two men who may have been faking the entire thing from the start.

*I met my wife this way, so I can't really complain, though it does get old after awhile.

[Astrophotographer]

Originally Posted by Vortigern99

That said, this generally occurs with people who are 1 - 3 feet away from me at the time, so perhaps this example does not make the best analogy with the on-site estimation of Patty's height... especially from two men who may have been faking the entire thing from the start.

I have a similar problem being 6'4" (a runt compared to you). People close to me recognize the rough height. However, if I were standing in a field over a hundred feet away, I think people would give a more average value of 6 to 6-1/2 foot. When people are close they compare you to their own height or a reference. Far away in a field, is much more difficult.

[makaya325]

Originally Posted by Astrophotographer

I have a similar problem being 6'4" (a runt compared to you). People close to me recognize the rough height. However, if I were standing in a field over a hundred feet away, I think people would give a more average value of 6 to 6-1/2 foot. When people are close they compare you to their own height or a reference. Far away in a field, is much more difficult.

People can not judge size at all. I am starting to think that even other species are better witnesses than us.

[dafydd]

Vortigern.Off topic but as a Welshman I would rather see Gwrtheyrn (guhweerth eye ren).Vortigern was his English name.

[dafydd]

Not a big deal though,I'm not complaining.

[Blackdog]

Originally Posted by makaya325

People can not judge size at all. I am starting to think that even other species are better witnesses than us.

And which species would those be?
Raelians?

[makaya325]

Originally Posted by Blackdog

And which species would those be?
Raelians?

No Blackdog. I am talking about Animals such as Ceteceans, Canines, Felines, etc.

[JohnWS]

Originally Posted by makaya325

People can not judge size at all. I am starting to think that even other species are better witnesses than us.

Originally Posted by makaya325

I am talking about Animals such as Ceteceans, Canines, Felines, etc.

Based on...?

[I Am He]

I think he baises it on all of his years of experience. Let's see he's all of 20 yrs old, you know.





I Am He

[PaulV]

My very first post on JREF I've been meaning to do this for a very long time.

Originally Posted by mikeyx

Considering the issue at hand is whether or not "certain" questions should be allowed or not being all the huh ub, I would be more appreciative of the stance if he hadn't been to quick to get touchy about percieving folks as attacking Dr Meldrum last summer when it was merely a qustion of why some PHDs and like educated folks can be questioned; Farenbach, Bindernagle, davis among others but Meldrum is untouchable.

Just saying....

What exactly did I say last summer that gave you the impression that I was 'touchy' about people questioning Meldrum as opposed to other speakers? Please provide a link.

I'm not aware that I got 'touchy' - I think Meldrum is as answerable to questions as the next speaker. His PHD does not elevate him to some special status as far as I'm concerned - I thought I'd always been clear on that.

If you got the wrong impression about how I feel on the subject, I sincerly and unreservedly apologise, but I would still like a link please.


---


That aside, I think its a damn shame that Tom and Bobo acted the way they did (and I'm sure some are saying the same about me), but it is understandable, they are truly committed Gimlin groupies who have elevated him to a God-like status - frankly, I find Tom's infatuation with Gimlin nothing short of creepy.

The real problem as I see it is that there are people who seek to use Gimlin's reputation as a solid, dependable, "good Christian man" (as if that is more trustworthy than a good person of another religion or a good atheist) as evidence that the PGF is authentic, but they are looking at Gimlin in the 21st century, not the 1960s Gimlin, when, according to Tom Yamarone himself (as he relayed the story to me in 2004), Gimlin hung out with Bob Kneivel, a known bank robber and poacher at the time, although I accept that Tom may be have been bs'ing in an attempt to elevate Gimlin as a 'cool dude' even further.

It is the 1960s Gimlin that was involved with the PGF, a man who by all accounts was found with stolen property, had an arrest warrant issued (that doesn't mean he was actually arrested, and I still feel to this day that Long asked the wrong questions) had dodgy friends and didn't think twice about wearing a silly 'indian' wig to help Patterson appear authentic. I suspect Gimlin wasn't whiter than white, and according to his 'friend' James 'Bobo' Fay, he still has a tendancy to beat up on people who don't agree with him.

Now don't get me wrong, I met Gimlin in 2003 and thought he was a very nice old man. He was polite, respectful and funny, but unless someone can vouch for his character in the 1960s, his character should not be used to support the validity of the PGF - apart from anything else it is thoroughly unscientific, and anyone claiming to be a scientist who uses Gimlin as 'evidence' should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

When I'm in my late 70s, I'm going to be polite, respectful, charming and funny, but I'm now two years older than Gimlin was in 1967, I am not the same person that I was twenty years ago, and I'm not the same person I will be in another forty years time. Anyone who in 2049 claims that I was always charming and respectful will an out-and-out liar.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Welcome to the JREF Paul

[Skeptical Greg]

Welcome Paul..

I would like to say that I have never found Paul to be anything but fair and respectful when it comes to dealing with controversy at BFF ..

I'm sure I've tested his patience a time or two, but I have never managed to get myself banned or even supended .. I understand and respect where he has drawn the line.

If anything he is too forgiving at times, but never in favor of one faction over the other .. ( IMO )

[GT/CS]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Welcome Paul..

I would like to say that I have never found Paul to be anything but fair and respectful when it comes to dealing with controversy at BFF ..

I'm sure I've tested his patience a time or two, but I have never managed to get myself banned or even supended .. I understand and respect where he has drawn the line.

If anything he is too forgiving at times, but never in favor of one faction over the other .. ( IMO )

I wholeheartedly agree

[RayG]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

I'm sure I've tested his patience a time or two, but I have never managed to get myself banned or even supended ..

You ain't the only one...

Hidey-ho Paul!

RayG

[clayflingythingy]

Welcome aboard Paul.

I don't post on BFF since I'm certain bigfoot is a mythological creature. I do lurk there since I find bigfoot hoaxes, and the people who believe them, to be interesting.

[mikeyx]

Originally Posted by PaulV

My very first post on JREF I've been meaning to do this for a very long time.




What exactly did I say last summer that gave you the impression that I was 'touchy' about people questioning Meldrum as opposed to other speakers? Please provide a link.

I'm not aware that I got 'touchy' - I think Meldrum is as answerable to questions as the next speaker. His PHD does not elevate him to some special status as far as I'm concerned - I thought I'd always been clear on that.

If you got the wrong impression about how I feel on the subject, I sincerly and unreservedly apologise, but I would still like a link please.


---

this was in the wake of the GA debacle, and I will look for it, amidst the many GA threads, you know what I mean, but i regard to the apology, accepted and appreciated, thanks. I'll find the relevant post and if you want to discuss we can, but the tone of my post was not meant be against you as much as it seems to me that the whole conference thing of late seems to be the hotbed of politics. Its gotten old.

[PaulV]

That's fine Mikeyx - I'm just genuinely suprised to hear that I wrote such a thing. I mean, I know I write some real rubbish sometimes, so I wouldn't put it past me, but I genuinely don't remember doing so, and if I did, I am am thoroughly ashamed of myself, because it isn't what I think.

I suspect the conversation might have been along the lines of me saying that I see no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to sell casts at conferences just because he has a PHD. I think it is a little tacky, I know I wouldn't do it, and it depends on whether he is selling them as 'bigfoot casts' or 'alleged bigfoot casts', but in principal, I don't have a problem with it, but I don't think I have ever said that he shouldn't be subjected to questioning about his assertions.

[makaya325]

Originally Posted by JohnWS

Based on...?

It is just an Opinion, thats all.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by PaulV

My very first post on JREF I've been meaning to do this for a very long time.

Prince Paul! Welcome to hell! Enjoy your stay. Good move on Cult Freak Tom and Fanatic Chimp Bobo. Hey, I have a question. When members of your forum have threads on infrasound, or tree breaks, or what kind of pets Bigfoot keeps, etc do you find it funny good or funny bad?

[mikeyx]

Originally Posted by PaulV

That's fine Mikeyx - I'm just genuinely suprised to hear that I wrote such a thing. I mean, I know I write some real rubbish sometimes, so I wouldn't put it past me, but I genuinely don't remember doing so, and if I did, I am am thoroughly ashamed of myself, because it isn't what I think.

I suspect the conversation might have been along the lines of me saying that I see no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to sell casts at conferences just because he has a PHD. I think it is a little tacky, I know I wouldn't do it, and it depends on whether he is selling them as 'bigfoot casts' or 'alleged bigfoot casts', but in principal, I don't have a problem with it, but I don't think I have ever said that he shouldn't be subjected to questioning about his assertions.

time has passed, we;re good.

[William Parcher]

Welcome, Paul.

I reviewed your Sept. 2007 lecture on the PGF and found a number of unique "factoids" which I had never heard before. For this, your account of the PGF is unlike any other.

I can't seem to find your actual transcript (I thought it was on the web) now, but I did find several blogger reviews of your lecture. This one quotes you as saying Gimlin was "paid-off" by Pat Patterson for $10K. Do you have a reference for this information?

Quote:

Bob Gimlin is still alive, works in a garage in Yakima, Washington State, and if drunk will tell you about his work with stunt motorcyclist ‘Evil’ Kenevel. He made very little money from the film, just a $10,000 pay-off from Mrs Patterson.

There are other curiousities in your lecture, but I'm just asking about this one now.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Anyone hear anything about any of the other speakers and all this other "new" stuff?

[Tyinhell]

Originally Posted by LONGTABBER PE

Anyone hear anything about any of the other speakers and all this other "new" stuff?

Meldrum probably claimed to have found a corn impression in one of the casts taken at the film site that no one without an advanced knowledge of foot morphology and podiatry could have hoaxed.

He left the stage to a smattering of applause and some wondering what in last night's BBQ gave them diarrhea.

[PaulV]

Originally Posted by JohnWS

I wish I could find a link - but isn't it the case that during a frightening situation, our biology makes us assess the situation by estimating the maximum threat* we are likely to have to deal with?

So - when encountering a 'creature' no bigger than* seven feet (it may have actually been 6 ft) after the emotional needle settles, it can leave the impression that the encounter was actually with a seven foot individual.

That is certainly my experience - when I was a kid we encountered a huge spider in the house. My memory of that event puts the spider's size at way beyond what a British House Spider is capable of growing to - I'd like to say that it is just me exaggerating, but my memory of it is vivid and I have remembered that spider as being almost supernatural proportions. I can see it as clearly in my mind as I (thought I) did three decades ago, and it is obviously a false memory.

[PaulV]

Originally Posted by kitakaze

Prince Paul! Welcome to hell! Enjoy your stay. Good move on Cult Freak Tom and Fanatic Chimp Bobo. Hey, I have a question. When members of your forum have threads on infrasound, or tree breaks, or what kind of pets Bigfoot keeps, etc do you find it funny good or funny bad?

Those are three different questions.

Infrasound - I'll be honest, I tune out and don't read the threads - I think I got involved in one thread once about an article written about a BFRO expedition and thought "oh brother", it seems like something that can't be proved, so some people will hang on it as a reality knowing that sensible people can't disprove it as bigfoot-related activity.

Tree breaks (and stick formations) - I think it is people reading far too much into a natural occurance. I have often posted that I see the same tree breaks and stick formations occuring in the forest behind my house in England, so if they aren't bigfoot related here, what makes them bigfoot related in America? I think its bogus and I think people are reading what they want into naturally occuring situations.

Bigfoot Pets (and other assorted garbage) - I try not to read the threads - I don't have enough time on this planet to read that much garbage. It is a tough call deciding whether these sorts of threads should be pulled or not - we put our faith in the members that the threads will pull around to a sane opinion, so we usually let them live out their natural life cycle.

[PaulV]

Originally Posted by William Parcher

This one quotes you as saying Gimlin was "paid-off" by Pat Patterson for $10K. Do you have a reference for this information?

I'd have to dig that out - it was a figure I read some time ago. I don't think 'paid off' is the correct expression, my understanding is that it was an out-of-court settlement regarding the copyright. Its possible I used the phrase 'paid off', I can't remember, but I was referring to this settlement about the copyright, nothing else.

The Evel Kneivel reference is something told to me by Tom Yamarone himself, which is part of my argument about Gimlin's character. In the 1960s when Yamarone says Gimlin was hanging out with Kneivel, Kneivel was a known thief and poacher, which at the very least, makes 1960s Gimlin a poor judge of character. I don't have a problem with that, but as I've said, his 80 year old character shouldn't be held up as proof that the PGF must be genuine because he is such a nice guy (which of course he is). I didn't meet Gimlin in the 1960s, so I don't what he was like then.

[PaulV]

Originally Posted by LONGTABBER PE

Anyone hear anything about any of the other speakers and all this other "new" stuff?

Brian, Scott, myself and Jerry (Tugboatwa) have just finished recording a 'Bigfoot Show' where Jerry discusses some of the stuff presented at Yakima this weekend - it should be available via iTunes later today.

I can't post links yet, but I'll post a download link on 'thebigfootshow' website as soon as Brian uploads it.