Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS

[volatile]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

But does it matter if he's right?

He's not right though, is he? Africa has vast mineral wealth - diamonds, gold, buckets of oil - and pretty much all the money flows straight out of the countries involved and into the bank accounts of Western coroporations. That money that does stay in the country goes only to a (well-armed) few.

Look up Shell's actions in Nigeria: http://www.essentialaction.org/shell/issues.html

Yes, aid doesn't help. But neither does the type of "trade" (more like pillage) that Western companies so often engage in. We're not so inculpable.

[DarthFishy]

Wow... quite a thread.

I have to echo the statements in the thread that say that it is very important to realise that Africa is not one big cesspool of tribal violence and poverty. While I'm sure most of the posters here know this a lot of them are not acting that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Damn, you beat me to it.

I'd lay reasonable odds that RSA implodes in the next 15-20 years.
Took 20 years for Zim to begin to tip. SA has only been indie for 14......

And I give New Zealand 15 year tops before it stagnates complete into a boring hellhole where the only thing of importance is the performance of the All Blacks.

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Right now, we are penalizing nations who do a good job, because we give them less money...and rewarding those nations that do the worst. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the problems with that scheme.

While I broadly agree with your statement do you have any figures to say that more money is really going to the poorer countries. And also consider the amount of trade that international corporations are putting into the richer African countries. I wonder if that doesn't cancel it out somewhat.

Originally Posted by gumboot

Let's face it. There's a reason we all left.

And there's a reason why I'm bloody well staying here.

[QUOTE"kittynh"]Right, I know people from South Africa and while they admit things are rough, they are positive and upbeat[/quote]

I agree its rough but really its not that bad. I live about 5km from Pretoria's City Central, in an apartment building. I get woken up occasionally by the sound of a Vuvuzela or gun shots. I'm not living in the suburbs or in a security complex.

And what do I see around me? People like, trying make a living, trying to raise a family. I see people who have hope for the country. Who still believe we can achieve something here. The only difference is skin color. And who cares about that anyway...

Honestly, Africa is a country with great potential, great people and which has many great things to offer the rest of the world. Even so it needs all the help it can get. Yes we need to feed starving children. Yes we need to educate them. Yes we need to ensure safety and security and political stability. Yes we need to change the mindset that many people have.

But for godsakes we don't need to do only one of them. And really, instead of whining, or looking down your noses at Africa: What are you doing to help? (Yes even you Mr. "I bet I give more of my monthly income to charity than you do?")

There... rant over.

[gumboot]

Africa must plan to solve this problem on their own, and I say that not just because I'm a condescending whining westerner who doesn't give aid.

In the next 50 years the western world is going to be increasingly occupied with trying to deal with its own problems due to increasing immigration, an aging population, over crowding, depletion of resources, economic strain, climate change, pressure from the developing world... the list goes on (see my "The End Is Nigh" thread).

As western civilisation starts to feel the crush of these pressures, any notion of "Global Community" is going to disintegrate as fast as a frozen lake in spring, and it's going to become a case of "every man for himself". I don't expect the UN to last much longer. And when the going gets tough the first thing that gets pulled is humanitarian aid to foreign lands.

[DarthFishy]

Originally Posted by gumboot

As western civilisation starts to feel the crush of these pressures, any notion of "Global Community" is going to disintegrate as fast as a frozen lake in spring, and it's going to become a case of "every man for himself". I don't expect the UN to last much longer. And when the going gets tough the first thing that gets pulled is humanitarian aid to foreign lands.

This is unfortunately very true. Even as the economic crisis is now showing that aid is the first thing to go.

In a less ranty mood than my previous post, I think there is a lot more the Western Nations can do to help Africa that has very little to do with providing mere financial aid.

International Legislation and Agreements like TRIPS, Agricultural Protectionism, the use of medical patents as generics.

Changing these kinds of laws and allowing more leeway to African (and other 3rd world countries) in terms of Intellectual Property Rights will have a much larger impact than billions of dollars of food money.

Third world countries are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to international trade for various reasons. Without easier access to certain pieces of Intellectual Property I believe they will have major difficulty in ever catching up.

Of course there are serious other issues as well, some of which needs to be addressed with immediate Aid (cholera outbreaks in Zimbabwe for example). Unfortunately you can't help a country if the President won't admit it has problems.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by DarthFishy

And I give New Zealand 15 year tops before it stagnates complete into a boring hellhole where the only thing of importance is the performance of the All Blacks.

15 years? 15 years ago maybe.

Originally Posted by DarthFishy

And really, instead of whining, or looking down your noses at Africa: What are you doing to help? (Yes even you Mr. "I bet I give more of my monthly income to charity than you do?")

There... rant over.

Helping people get out of RSA and Zimbabwe.

In case you hadn't noticed, SA has had a brain drain on for the past 20 years.

There's no looking down the nose involved, I'd love to see things just improve.

[Delvo]

Originally Posted by DarthFishy

Africa is a country...

Originally Posted by DarthFishy

instead of whining, or looking down your noses at Africa: What are you doing to help?

The problems of many African countries can only be helped by population reduction. Do you want us to go over there and start "reducing the population", or to feel guilty about not doing that?

[plumjam]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Helping people get out of RSA and Zimbabwe.

In case you hadn't noticed, SA has had a brain drain on for the past 20 years.

There's no looking down the nose involved, I'd love to see things just improve.

You work in personnel don't you?
If that's so then (correct me if I'm wrong), you're making a living by worsening the situation in Africa. While simultaneously boasting that you give money to African charities.
Wow.

[DarthFishy]

Originally Posted by Delvo

The problems of many African countries can only be helped by population reduction. Do you want us to go over there and start "reducing the population", or to feel guilty about not doing that?

Heh. Trust me to make a typo that I was harassing other people for.

But to get to your point. Do you honestly, honestly think that overpopulation is the problem in Africa?

[DarthFishy]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Helping people get out of RSA and Zimbabwe.

In case you hadn't noticed, SA has had a brain drain on for the past 20 years.

So... your solution to Africa (in this case RSA's and ZIM's) problem is to exacerbate the very situation you are claiming is part of the problem? Or why else mention the brain drain?

Well it seems we are at odds then. I'm helping people in Africa improve their education, in essence training people up to fill the very brain drain that you're helping. Or am I misreading your statement in some way?

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by plumjam

You work in personnel don't you?
If that's so then (correct me if I'm wrong), you're making a living by worsening the situation in Africa. While simultaneously boasting that you give money to African charities.
Wow.

I'm not worsening the situation at all. The people are going to leave anyway, so much better they move here than some dump like Engliand.

Originally Posted by DarthFishy

So... your solution to Africa (in this case RSA's and ZIM's) problem is to exacerbate the very situation you are claiming is part of the problem? Or why else mention the brain drain?

See above. I'm probably making it easier for people to move, but you know very well that when people are desperate to get out, they do.

Most of the ones I deal with have hopped on a plane for NZ in hope they don't have to return to RSA. That being the case, I don't feel much culpability for it, and all I'd be doing by refusing to help is line someone else's pockets.

I'd certainly rather doctors and professionals stayed in Africa, but I see no reason why their right to earn a living and live where they choose should be any different from anyone else's.

Originally Posted by volatile

He's not right though, is he? Africa has vast mineral wealth - diamonds, gold, buckets of oil - and pretty much all the money flows straight out of the countries involved and into the bank accounts of Western coroporations. That money that does stay in the country goes only to a (well-armed) few.

Look up Shell's actions in Nigeria: http://www.essentialaction.org/shell/issues.html

Yes, aid doesn't help. But neither does the type of "trade" (more like pillage) that Western companies so often engage in. We're not so inculpable.

I'd say we're probably 100% culpable in historical terms. Britain and France between drew arbitrary lines on maps and eventually left the Africans to figure it out for themselves. I happen to think that's been an awful failure, but how to fix it up, I have no idea. What we've tried so far has been spectacularly unsuccessful.

I'm not advocating leaving them to their devices, by the way, but I think it's a valid option, and ultimately, it might even be the right one.

[plumjam]

TA, hilarious.
That defence is like if you saw a shop being looted, and joined in, with the 'justification' that "If I hadn't taken that merchandise then someone else would have. If I hadn't taken it I'd be simply lining someone else's pockets."
Whichever way you look at it you are personally profiting from human capital built up in Africa, possibly, I imagine, using funding from African taxpayers.
So you're effectively stealing from Africa while criticising it, and then broadcasting that you're good enough to send money to African charities.
If I were you I'd have kept well away from posting in this thread

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by plumjam

That defence is like if you saw a shop being looted, and joined in, with the 'justification' that "If I hadn't taken that merchandise then someone else would have. If I hadn't taken it I'd be simply lining someone else's pockets."

No, it's completely different, but I'm sure that if that's the way your logic works, it explains why you're able to hold such peculiar beliefs.

[DarthFishy]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

The people are going to leave anyway, so much better they move here than some dump like Engliand.

That I can agree with The England bit at least.

[plumjam]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

No, it's completely different, but I'm sure that if that's the way your logic works, it explains why you're able to hold such peculiar beliefs.

Your 'moral defence' boils down to 'well if I wasn't doing it someone else would be.' Which is just the kind of 'defence' you could expect from a looter, as well as other criminals. It's no defence at all, and you're probably aware of that.

[dudalb]

Quote:

And I give New Zealand 15 year tops before it stagnates complete into a boring hellhole where the only thing of importance is the performance of the All Blacks.

But they will always have that "Lord Of The Rings" was filmed there.....

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

No, it's completely different, but I'm sure that if that's the way your logic works, it explains why you're able to hold such peculiar beliefs.

Hey, every website need a clown.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by DarthFishy

That I can agree with The England bit at least.

It's kind of ironic actually.

30-40 years ago, Poms used to go to SA for the good life. "Good life" meaning huge salaries for white blokes and unlimited cheap labour - i.e. live like a king. Many of those migrants have moved here and to to Oz in the past 15 years.

Now, the Saffers are moving anywhere they can, and lots of the ones who moved to England are now trying to come here.

Should've all just moved here in the first place.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Hey, every website need a clown.

If only it was singular in reality...

[luchog]

Originally Posted by Demigorgon

Pfft..where else am I to get those shiny rocks so my wife can look all sparkle-y?

Canada.

[luchog]

Originally Posted by Sunstealer

Give an African a fish and you feed him for a day. Give him a fishing rod and he'll break it for fire wood or swap it for a fish.

Or trade it for a computer, Internet connection, and mass-email software.

Quote:

Ghana is doing all right. They have a president that is stepping down after his tenure even though the public want him to stay.

Quote:

Despite his genuine popular following, Mr Kufuor will hand over next month. Under his stewardship, Ghana's gross domestic product has quadrupled from £2.6 billion in 2000 to almost £11 billion today.

I wonder how much of that can be attributed to credit card and ID theft fraud, for which Ghana (along with neighboring Nigeria and Cameroon) is one of the world hotspots.

[DarthFishy]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

It's kind of ironic actually.

30-40 years ago, Poms used to go to SA for the good life. "Good life" meaning huge salaries for white blokes and unlimited cheap labour - i.e. live like a king. Many of those migrants have moved here and to to Oz in the past 15 years.

Now, the Saffers are moving anywhere they can, and lots of the ones who moved to England are now trying to come here.

Should've all just moved here in the first place.

More people returning to SA than leaving

Just for interests sake

[DarthFishy]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

It's kind of ironic actually.

30-40 years ago, Poms used to go to SA for the good life. "Good life" meaning huge salaries for white blokes and unlimited cheap labour - i.e. live like a king. Many of those migrants have moved here and to to Oz in the past 15 years.

Now, the Saffers are moving anywhere they can, and lots of the ones who moved to England are now trying to come here.

Should've all just moved here in the first place.

Just to clarify those are mostly white South Africans (as I'm sure you know). And if that's what they want to do that's fine. Those of us who are staying, are mostly staying because we still have hope that something can be done. It's probably that hardegat* Afrikaner mentality

Honestly I believe it's better here than it was pre 1994.

Hey,TA. If you ever get bored of helping Saffers make a live over there you should come visit. You might even enjoy it

* literally translates as hard assed in a determined bull headed kind of way

[bigred]

Originally Posted by The Drain

Africa will be the economic and agricultural breadbasket of the world by 2050. That's if we in the developed world do nothing. But if we decide to help, then Africa will be in a position to feed us all - as well as itself - by 2030.

So Africa in 2008 (and historically) cannot/does not even come close to being able to feed its OWN people.....but in a generation or so they will be the bread basket of the world? I'd love to hear how this was conclusion arrived at.

Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale

Botswana is doing well in comparison to other African nations. Botswana is actually a bit of a dump.

Maybe, but no other continent has had quite such trouble with philosophical underpinnings as Africa.

Indeed. I would argue that the masses of aid being paid to Africa are in fact a hindrence to the enlightenment - the "figuring it out for yourself" or the "moral underpinning" if you like - basically all this aid and charity and all those thousands of UN Land Cruisers are doing a whole lot of harm, not good. It benefits the local people little but secures the tenure of the despots.

As someone else said, give a man a fish and you feed him for a day...and he will need you to give him a fish for the rest of his lifetime.

Read Dark Star Safari by Paul Theroux. He puts it most eloquently.

Somebody gets it. Thank you.

Originally Posted by kittynh

Little steps in the right direction. But don't paint Africa with such a broad brush. Good things are happening.

Interesting - you say "don't paint with such a broad brush" and then go "good things are happening"

Honestly while that is true, it's misleading. It'd be kind of like having a school room with 50 kids with nearly all of them wild and out of control and 1 or 2 are behaving and going "well some kids are behaving and some are not." We are talking about the continent in general, which to a large extent is and has historically been a humanitarian disaster zone. (PS it's certainly not all the respective countrys' faults either, ie the "colonization"/exploitation etc that the western world has done)

Originally Posted by Sefarst

We've been doing most of that, but a great portion of the problems in many African nations are man-made. Giving micro-loans to the governments of many of these countries wouldn't work because it's the governments that are the problem.

Exactly. It's not exactly unheard of that X dollars are given to help provide food, medicine etc to the poor masses that desperately need it.......and the gov't sucks up much of it while those who need it get a trickle.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by DarthFishy

More people returning to SA than leaving

Just for interests sake

It doesn't show any numbers, so saying more are returning than leaving looks suspect.

Originally Posted by DarthFishy

Just to clarify those are mostly white South Africans (as I'm sure you know). And if that's what they want to do that's fine. Those of us who are staying, are mostly staying because we still have hope that something can be done. It's probably that hardegat* Afrikaner mentality

Honestly I believe it's better here than it was pre 1994.

I think most of the Afrikaner type you're talking about left soon after Mendela took the reins.

The typical news I hear - and it's from whites and what used to be known as "coloured", with a majority of them being the "coloured" group - is that they want out because of the crime rate and a fear for the future. Admittedly, I'm only hearing one side of the equation, but I do have some South African friends whose opinion I do trust and their comments are much the same.

In some ways, I think we all see what we want, but I don't have a dog in this fight, so I try to be objective on it.

Originally Posted by DarthFishy

Hey,TA. If you ever get bored of helping Saffers make a live over there you should come visit. You might even enjoy it

Been there, done that! (You have far better-looking women than NZ, but you probably knew that.)

Yes, I agree, it's a marvellous country and has genuine wealth both in resources and infrastructure. I hope like mad that it all does continue to grow and develop, because one thing is for sure; if RSA does go the way of Zimbabwe, the size, numbers of people involved and the weaponry available will indeed make Mugabe and the Zimbos look like an hors d'oeuvre.

Zuma certainly doesn't give me confidence. At least when Mugabe took over he didn't seem insane, and going over some old stuff the other day, it still seems that he was the sanest of them at that time. Maybe Nkomo would have been worse? Unfortunately, Zuma looked like a raving nutter even before he took over the presidency.

[interwaff]

We need to save Africa somehow. We need to be better than they are, by proving we care more than they do.

Intervention and self-depreciation of our own society are both part of the solution. If you aren't a part of that too, then you are part of the problem. The "problem" of not wanting to look and feel like you are so much better than them and wish to help... to save a child...

[Skeptic]

What I don't undestand about that article: if Malaria and famine are merely a form of "population control" (Okay, only when they happen to darker-skinned people in third-world countries), isn't murder simply a form of birth control?

Isn't that merely moving to the singular (one person dead, one less population, one less gun-toting khat-chewing thug) from the plural (millions dead, million less population, millions less gun-toting khat-chewing thugs)? Why then is murder illegal -- at least murder of Africans, that is? Birth control is legal, isn't it?

I suggest we should legalize shooting Africans for fun during Safari trips to those lush Savanahs. (Just don't hurt any animals -- we'd like to protect the enviornment, you know). Helping population control, stopping the emergence of another gun-toting khat-chewing thug, etc.

I don't see how the author could logically object to that, considering the fact that he's advocating mass famine as a solution. At least shooting is quick and relatively painless compared to starving to death.

[DarthFishy]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Been there, done that! (You have far better-looking women than NZ, but you probably knew that.)

I always suspected but its nice to have confirmation

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

I suggest we should legalize shooting Africans for fun during Safari trips to those lush Savanahs.

We tried that in Australia, but some of the bastards got away and a whole lot of stinking crybaby liberals had a big hissy fit.

Never happen.

Originally Posted by DarthFishy

I always suspected but its nice to have confirmation

Sad but true. Only chubby-chasers come to NZ for the women.

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Originally Posted by Roboramma

>I'm all for stepping back and asking why. But the fact that the situation >has gotten worse in 40 years doesn't suggest that it wouldn't be even
>worse if aid hadn't existed at all.

Perhaps, but in the analysis we have to examine the strong possibility that its the treatment that is the problem

>If a doctor finds his patient is getting worse, that doesn't suggest he >should stop treatment entirely, though certainly he might look more >carefully at what treatment he is given, and reassess his initial diagnosis.

Including the very strong indication that the treatment is making things worse, not better, which is what has happened.

>Actually I think we need a much more well thought out and thorough plan >than that.

Well, go one then. But dont forget that aid is not just for Christmas. Aid is for life. Want to go and make some fish farms in Malawi? Fine, but just remember that those fish farms only exist so long as western taxpayers and NGOs find it sexy to fund them. Mostly, the interest disappears, donors get bored and decide there some other children with flies in their eyes more deserving of the fruits of their guilt.

>Which is fine, but doesn't suggest that during those ten years no good >came of those things.

Or it could suggest, as is my observation, that during those ten years, you have made things worse, not better.


>I see no reason to believe that aid is useless. The fact that the situation is >bad, and thus not amenable to easy solutions, doesn't suggest that what is >being done doesn't help at all.

I also see no reason to believe that aid is useless. I am sure that the situation is bad, and thus not amenable to easy solutions.

I am saying that the 'solutions' are simply aggravating the situation and making it worse.

..

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Now, the Saffers are moving anywhere they can, and lots of the ones who moved to England are now trying to come here.

When my daughter auditioned at the music school at the University of North Texas, we met five prospectives for the music program from South Africa: three female and two male. The year before, we met two different waitresses at two different restaurants in Lake Tahoe region. All seven were the European descendent version of a South African.

Looks like plenty of SAFs are crossing the pond to our place.

What should we call them: Diamondbacks?

DR

[Toke]

We had a 3. engineer from SA 6-7 years ago.
His biggest problem was something about immigration points to let him into Australia or Canada.
According to him SA was heading downhill and would end up like the rest of africa.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Looks like plenty of SAFs are crossing the pond to our place.

What should we call them: Diamondbacks?

DR

Yeah, that might fit!

And proof that they'll go anywhere to get away:

Originally Posted by Toke

We had a 3. engineer from SA 6-7 years ago.
His biggest problem was something about immigration points to let him into Australia or Canada.
According to him SA was heading downhill and would end up like the rest of africa.

[amb]

Humanity originated from Africa and migrated to the rest of the globe.
What the hell happened in between? The whole continent is a basket case because they are simply not able to govern themselves. Does that sound racist? It probably does, but it's a fact of life.

[JoeyDonuts]

Put the children back in the coltan mine!!!

Daddy needs a new processor!!!

[DC]

Originally Posted by gumboot

I'm pretty sure they gave us Ebola too, didn't they?

Interestingly, some years ago I read an article by some African leader of some description, where he urged the West to stop giving Africa financial hand outs, and made a compelling argument that it was actually making things worse.

I can't recall his name, I think he was Zimbabwe. It was a really interesting read.

we have several containers in this region where you can trow in ld clothes that are not needed anymore.

those are then send to Africa.

I always thought that is a good thing.
Untill an African leader said that this is a nive thing to do from us, but that it is actually killing theyr own cloth manufacturers.

and the Old saying about Fish and Fishing is indeed something we need to remember more often when trying to help.

BTW: a huge amount of natural recources come from Africa.

[amb]

Like I said. Africa is and will be a basket case for decades to come.
I will make this bold prediction and only time will prove me right or wrong. But South Africa, which at this moment is the strongest economy in the whole continent, is on a downward spiral that will in ten-twenty years be worse than Zimbawe.
All the whites are seeking to leave the place, and take their money with them.
Unless in the near future a truly democratic rational government takes over, the place is surely doomed.

[The Drain]

JD, did you get a chance to cross the border into Cameroon when you were in eastern Nigeria? They have far nicer beer there! I met an off-duty Policeman in Mamfe who bought several beers for me, but would not accept any in return, on the basis that I was a 'guest in his country'.

Dictator Cheney: Donating old clothes to charity is fine, where those clothes are subsequently sold in the donors' home country to raise money for overseas development. But you're right otherwise: Shipping clothes or more usually surplus food into a weak economy can further destabilise it.

Hence my earlier rant about subsidised American and European food being dumped in Africa, and so destroying any incentive for local farmers to produce anything more than they need for subsistence.

When there's an emergency - such as an earthquake - it is usually far better to send money instead of goods to agencies working in the afflicted area so that they can buy whatever's needed (clothes, food, etc) from local sources and so keep the local economy going.

Amb: I think it's a bit much to say that 'all the whites are seeking to leave the place' (RSA). The traffic is going in both directions.

And what evidence do you have to make you think the continent 'will be a basket case for decades to come'? The farming potential in much of sub-Saharan Africa is truly enormous.

I have personally seen vast tracts of good land in Sierra Leone go unfarmed because the cost of transporting home-grown rice from the countryside into the towns is greater than the cost to a town-dweller of buying rice imported from the USA. The American rice is below cost because it is subsidised by the US Government, while the democratically-elected Sierra Leonean government is prevented by the International Monetary Fund from imposing import tariffs that might protect and nurture its own agricultural industry. The same thing happened to Ghana's democratically-elected government, when it was forced by the IMF to overturn import taxes on rice and poultry.

The best thing that could happen to African agriculture is the removal of the current unfair international trade rules.

I'm old enough to remember when 'Made in Japan' meant a product was probably cheap and nasty. Now, of course, Japan and the other Asian Tiger economies are leading the world in the production of quality goods. My point is that when their economies were weak (like many of Africa's national economies are today) the various Asian governments were allowed and were able to protect and nurture their home-based industries. As a result, they've grown.

We should allow African countries to do the same and then they too will bloom, not boom.

[JoeyDonuts]

Originally Posted by The Drain

JD, did you get a chance to cross the border into Cameroon when you were in eastern Nigeria? They have far nicer beer there! I met an off-duty Policeman in Mamfe who bought several beers for me, but would not accept any in return, on the basis that I was a 'guest in his country'.

No. I was there with the U.S. Navy on a port visit. The places we could and could not go were VERY tightly controlled. There were only 3 approved places the embassy wanted us running around in Lagos...A shopping mall, a small outdoor souk-type market, and the Nigerian Navy base enlisted club. And everywhere we went on the bus, there were two armed escorts.

I had more freedom to wander in Oman and Bahrain then I did in Nigeria.

[Toke]

Closets I have been to Port Harcourt was Onna, halfway up Bonny river. I spoke to a engineer from a supply ship there.
He did not recoment going ashore.

Otherwise Cotonou in Benin is a safe but not exiting place to go ashore.
Tema in Ghana is nice, Tacoradi is far better, the seamans club have a nice view acros the habour.
I have been ashore once in Abijan on the ivory coast, we were driven by the agent and had to pay twice at improvised roadblocks before leaving the port area.

San Pedro, also on the ivory coast have a wonderfull beach next to the port. Downside is that there is a bunch of young men outside the gate who will act as guides and refuse to take no for a answer. They can get quite treatening.


I think africa have alot of problems, some of them being trade regulations, corruption, lack of education, and african culture.
Maintainence is not a town in africa.

[Toke]

In Cotonu they had problems with 2 of their 3 toplifters and could not bring containers to the ship very fast.
So we went ashore to help, chief engineer, 1. engineer, and me, the electrician.

First one had no oilpreassure in the automatic gearbox, so the CPU set it to idle after starting the engine. We looked for the sensor on the gearbox and in the manuals of two other models witch was all they had. We checked their spare parts stock to see what it looked like, they did not have one.
That was no succes.

Next one reported databus error, and refused to do anything.
Their electrician had already checked all plugs and wires between the CPU and the 5 submodules. Next step would be to replace boards to locate the faulty one.
There were none in stock.

Back at the office management told us that they had ordered two new toplifters, different models for a total of 5 different types of toplifters.
We sugested they order one and spend the rest on spareparts for the machines they had. We got some nasty looks from the office types, and a smile from the electrician.

That was obvius not something mere technicians like us were entitled to an oppinion on.


A toplifter can lift 20 and 40 foot containers and drive around with them, or just put them on a truck.