|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
10th December 2008, 02:00 PM | #1 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 261
|
The new dissent on AGW
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616db87e6
Could we just separate the politics and have an actual skeptical look at it? |
10th December 2008, 02:14 PM | #2 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,433
|
Define 'skeptical look'.
For example, I would find it useful to consider who wrote it, their expertise on the subject and their agenda. Politics is going to be an integral part of that; especially in this instance, because we are talking about an article on the US Senate website. |
10th December 2008, 03:01 PM | #3 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,773
|
I guess we can do the same thing with the similar list from the Heartland Institute, where many of the members either weren't climate scientists, or didn't realize they were on the list until contacted by someone else.
That tactic is getting tiresome. |
10th December 2008, 03:57 PM | #4 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15,718
|
|
10th December 2008, 04:13 PM | #5 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,208
|
Ok, I’ll bite. The skeptic in me immediately asks why we would discuss a list of names rather then the papers published by the people on that list. Surly any valuable insight these people have is better reflected in the literature then their out of context quotes.
|
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen" |
|
10th December 2008, 04:19 PM | #6 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
|
|
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
|
10th December 2008, 04:30 PM | #7 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
|
Ah, what the heck ...
(this should really be on the Politics Forum; posting this so shortly before the report comes out is a very political act.) The "400 scientists who spoke out in 2007" has been shot away already - weathermen, economists, people who objected to being included when they heard about it, the usual stuff. Another 250 of the same won't change a thing. The conference at Poznan won't "face a serious challenge" because it's a diplomatic conference, not a scientific one. Nobody gives a toss about a US Senate Committee Minority Report, frankly. Governments in the wider world have their own scientific advisers and institutions to consult, and are well aware of the oddball nature of some US Senators. Inhofe being a prime example. No doubt this will bounce around the echo-chamber like Gabriel's Last Trump but it signifies nothing. |
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
|
10th December 2008, 07:49 PM | #8 |
Guest
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 755
|
How far along is Al Gore's 10 years to save the planet clock? Let me be the first to ask - could Al be wrong? Anything is possible, right?
|
10th December 2008, 08:29 PM | #9 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,491
|
Probably best to wait for the complete report. There does seem to be some damning statements from some fairly competent individuals but we've seen people like this taken out of context before.
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell |
|
11th December 2008, 02:33 AM | #10 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 46,328
|
Is he sure of those numbers? Because many of the "dissenting" scientists on the first effort he referred to were outraged to be included on his list. The list was created purely on the basis of what the author thought their research or public statements said about global warming.
|
__________________
We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
|
11th December 2008, 04:00 AM | #11 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,143
|
|
11th December 2008, 04:04 AM | #12 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,143
|
|
11th December 2008, 04:12 AM | #13 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,704
|
|
11th December 2008, 07:50 AM | #14 |
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,149
|
Look, I am aware that Al Gore's manly voice and full strong beard get many on the right wing worked up. And I am aware that they sublimate their attraction by pretending their focus is on what he's saying, rather than the hypnotic attraction his voice holds.
But can you please take the crush to the appropriate forum? We're discussing science here. I'm sure many in the Forum Community will be happy to help you with your relationship issues. |
11th December 2008, 07:54 AM | #15 |
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,149
|
Oh and P.S.
Yeah, half of all warming is due to sun. Yeaaaaah. Because that graph tracks with global temperature. Also, I have a cheap bridge in Brooklyn, limited time offer, just contact me with your bank account number. |
11th December 2008, 09:30 AM | #16 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15,718
|
Hmm...so little graph and a bit of Warmer innuendo negate the published, peer reviewed work of several serious and well respected solar scientists (Solanksi, for one)? Yeah right.
Would you care to extend that graph of solar activity back 1000 years? Please include magnetic and other solar effects, instead of just irradiance, so we can be sure that the representation is accurate. Show us a view of solar activity extended both in time and scope, so that any and all skepticism regarding this issue is put to rest. I am certain that your certainty on solar not being a factor in the Earth's warming is so certain that you will certainly have no trouble supporting your position. Or will you? |
11th December 2008, 09:47 AM | #17 |
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,149
|
Remember folks, we can't extend global temperature observations back any length of time past direct observation because MHaze doesn't think those are accurate, but he happily thinks our direct solar observations can be extended backwards using similar methods. Hey MHaze, are you now saying that all temperature observations extended backwards are valid? It would be a 180 on your previous position, so it's amusing that you claim this (and FYI, I haven't bothered to go on your latest wild goose chase, so I have no idea what egg is at the end of it). Cause and effect, people. Obviously. |
11th December 2008, 10:04 AM | #18 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,228
|
|
__________________
Stupid is depressing... |
|
11th December 2008, 02:28 PM | #19 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15,718
|
Lay off the silliness. I've only pointed out that a graph of solar activity for 30 years is a futile exercise. Solanski: "during the last 1150 years the sun was never as active as during the last 60 years".
Draw your own conclusions, ..... but draw conclusions from 30 years of data at your own risk. |
11th December 2008, 02:47 PM | #20 |
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,149
|
|
11th December 2008, 02:58 PM | #21 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
|
Anything on the newly updated U.S. Senate Minority Report "set for release this week"? There's not much of the week left.
|
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
|
11th December 2008, 03:03 PM | #22 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
|
This quote is actually insane :
Quote:
|
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
|
11th December 2008, 03:14 PM | #23 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,819
|
|
11th December 2008, 05:45 PM | #24 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,143
|
|
11th December 2008, 05:47 PM | #25 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,491
|
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell |
|
11th December 2008, 05:51 PM | #26 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,143
|
|
11th December 2008, 06:35 PM | #27 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
|
|
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
|
11th December 2008, 08:20 PM | #28 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15,718
|
Inhofe leads the (current) minority party, Republicans members on the committee.
|
12th December 2008, 04:20 AM | #29 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 46,328
|
Take "Louis Hissink M.Sc. M.A.I.G., Editor AIG News and Consulting Geologist, Perth, Western Australia; "
A bigger loony would be harder to find. Eccentric is far too kind. Morano just added up a list of names, with no regard what so ever for actually knowing what he was actually putting in that list. Google some of the sayings of Louis. He flies in the face of just about every modern piece of science, for him the good old says ended with Newton. |
__________________
We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
|
12th December 2008, 04:37 AM | #30 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 46,328
|
|
__________________
We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
|
12th December 2008, 04:38 AM | #31 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,143
|
|
12th December 2008, 04:40 AM | #32 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 46,328
|
Zbigniew Jaworowski, PhD, physicist, Chairman
His science is so bad, he has to have it published in Lyndon Larouche outlets. |
__________________
We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
|
12th December 2008, 04:42 AM | #33 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 46,328
|
John McLean, Climate Data Analyst, computer scientist,
He lives overseas, (in the same country I do) so I guess that makes him international. He has no more credentials to claim to be a "Climate Data Analyst" than I have. |
__________________
We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
|
12th December 2008, 05:45 AM | #34 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 46,328
|
There are many Phds who are not scientists, economists, etc. But the IPCC has them too in it's reports? That's right, they report on the things they know about, no political scientists are doing research on the science on AGW, but contributing to such matters as the expected impacts of climate change on society.
|
__________________
We do these things not because they are easy, but because we thought they were going to be easy. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
|
12th December 2008, 08:51 AM | #35 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 146
|
Hmmm, is it just me, or do these two graphs indeed look like cause and effect (without the irony, I mean)? The first looks a lot like a derivative of the second, no?
You know like as if you would put these two things in a graph: 1.) The energy you put in a water kettle (which would be a horizontal line) 2.) The temperature in the kettle (which would be the ascending one) They even seem to have the peaks and dips in the same place (like the peaks in '80 and '90 for example) Obviously this in itself doesn't mean or proof anything, I just wanted to wisecrack a little. (And I thought the possible correlation of the two was dismissed a little too easily) Sorry for just "driving by", I've been following these AGW threads for a while (I had a lengthy discussion about modelling climate a while back) but more for the education of myself. FR |
12th December 2008, 09:24 AM | #36 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
Evidences that coal does not contribute to global warming:
|
12th December 2008, 10:11 AM | #37 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
|
|
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
|
12th December 2008, 10:19 AM | #38 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
|
Page 2, halfway down, "Al Gore".
Search for "Al Gore" : 57 results. These guys really do have the hots for that hunk. |
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
|
12th December 2008, 10:24 AM | #39 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
|
12th December 2008, 10:31 AM | #40 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
|
|
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|