need help explaining event

[jrsharp70]

Hello,
(Author's note, i just finished an anatomy final, i am pretty hammered, but still feel i can ask my question in a straightforward manner).

i am new to the forum, but a long time follower of Randi and his awesomeness.

I have had a few experiences where i have been glad i am firmly grounded in reality, (i once heard some looney on the radio referring to an experience i had as an out-of-body experience, only to research it and find out that it was purely a case of sleep paralysis, look it up)... however this time i am having some trouble. My chemistry is not as good as it ought to be, and therefore my understanding of electronics driven by batteries needs help. I'll explain.

I have an alarm clock, analog, that is fantastically annoying. On the given alarm time, the doors beneath the face of the clock open up and a scene of a little german band is shown and an annoying song comes blaring out.

The issue is, after a year of me not changing the dead batteries, the song managed to go off one day, clearly, as if they were fresh. However, there was not power to the second hand, it never ticked.

Now i have people who have claimed for a long time that the house was "haunted" telling me it is the ghost.

So my question is, i know that batteries can slowly build up potential back into the cells over time, however i am uncertain as to why the hands of the clock did not continue to drain the batteries enough that the alarm would not sound. Also, it went off without the hands being on the correct alarm time.

Anyone who knows more than i do about power cells, the power required to play music versus that needed for mechanical motion, or just a similar story, i'd appreciate some input. This is not a trolling post, i don't have any illusions of the easter bunny, ghosts, santa or jesus on his white horse. I am just looking for a little scientific insight.

Thanks

[Harpyja]

I'm also curious as to the power required to generate sound versus mechanical motion.

This is, of course, just anecdotal evidence - but I've found the power required for an MP3 player to generate music is usually lower than the power required for it to display the backlight.

[Foolmewunz]

JRSharp,

First, welcome to the forums. You closing paragraph indicates you've read here, before, I take it? (Knowing that sixteen people will call "troll" and accuse you of confirmation bias, or whatever....)

Maybe the mods could move this for you, over the Science/Math/Egghead sub-forum. I'm a total idiot, or I'd be happy to help, but since you're really looking for the science/numbers, that might be a better place to start.

[JWideman]

Year dead batteries? Probably leaked all over, causing a short.

[arthwollipot]

I suspect that the hands of the clock are stuck. This can happen with mechanical clocks that stay stopped for a while - the lubricant dries up and the mechanism jams.

So somehow the battery managed to recover enough power to set off the annoying music, and had the hands not been stuck they would have moved as well.

I don't know what mechanism could cause the batteries to recharge though.

[NobbyNobbs]

Perhaps a charged capacitor finally let loose?

[Uncayimmy]

I'll take a swing at this...

Suppose you need X amount of force to open the door. The batteries gradually wear down to the point where they are not exerting X amount of force. Therefore, the door doesn't open. However, it might nudge the door a wee bit. Maybe there is a spring that closes the door. Maybe it doesn't retract the door all the way after the nudge. Do this a whole bunch of times and eventually the door might get to the point that it only needs 0.2X to open.

The next time around the door does open. The 0.2X amount of force is enough to make the music (requires very little power compared to moving the door). This time the spring that closes the door builds up enough momentum to fully close the door against the friction it encounters. Now that 0.2X power is not enough to open the door. You're back to nudging.

Seems plausible to me. If not, I'm sure someone else will shoot a hole in it.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Myself and an ex were in one room one day when our radio suddenly turned on in another room. This was not a device with any kind of remote control. Whatever the cause, I have no reason to even consider ghosts or supernatural events were the cause because there is no evidence that is a likely explanation. Your case seems even more likely to just be a function of the physical mechanics of the clock and the battery. Whether anyone on the board has an explanation or not, poltergeist activity is so low on the list of potential explanations as to not be worth considering.

I realize this is easy for 'believers' to say is just a skeptic's refusal to consider the supernatural, but from my view point, it is saying if there were evidence of such events being supernatural in origin, why should they be so elusive to document in controlled conditions and why would natural explanations be so commonly found? In other words, why are we even bothering with supernatural explanations here?

You are asking the right question and welcome to the forum, BTW. But is it really asking how does something like this occur or are you asking for something to rule out the supernatural in this case? If it is the latter, I suggest you think about why you would need to continually consider the supernatural after time and time again we find natural explanations? If we are going to discover supernatural elements occurring in this Universe, I suggest it won't be a clock alarm going off unexpectedly.

[Uncayimmy]

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

If we are going to discover supernatural elements occurring in this Universe, I suggest it won't be a clock alarm going off unexpectedly.

You're no fun. If I were suddenly endowed the power of invisibility, that is precisely the kinda stunt I'd pull just to mess with people.

Have you ever had a pet and a remote control car or laser pointer? I rest my case.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

You're no fun. If I were suddenly endowed the power of invisibility, that is precisely the kinda stunt I'd pull just to mess with people.

Have you ever had a pet and a remote control car or laser pointer? I rest my case.

Ah, but your case proves my point. Natural explanation when the truth comes out.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Anytime I want fun I simply contemplate the actual Universe. String theory, extra dimensions, infinite or finite Universe, black holes, dark matter and dark energy, the nature of time... the list of things to wonder about is pretty long. No ghosts needed.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

Anytime I want fun I simply contemplate the actual Universe. String theory, extra dimensions, infinite or finite Universe, black holes, dark matter and dark energy, the nature of time... the list of things to wonder about is pretty long. No ghosts needed.

Nominated.

[jrsharp70]

Thanks guys. Some decent things to think about. The batteries were in fine shape, i took them out after this happened (since even ghosts cannot drive current through an incomplete circuit, and if i do nothing, the terrorists win). Also the music stopped just fine when the power button was switched off, again, pointing to the fact that there was no real circuit malfunction.

In any case, i assume since this happened at an odd time of the morning when i am usually not at home, this has probably happened before and i just haven't been there for it. I would test it, but honestly, i don't care enough to. I just wanted to know how this could happen, power from long-dead batteries.

Again, this entire institution dedicated to reason and logic is probably one of the greatest things i have ever seen. If things like this didn't exist, i'd be way more worried about the world.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

You are asking the right question and welcome to the forum, BTW. But is it really asking how does something like this occur or are you asking for something to rule out the supernatural in this case? If it is the latter, I suggest you think about why you would need to continually consider the supernatural after time and time again we find natural explanations? If we are going to discover supernatural elements occurring in this Universe, I suggest it won't be a clock alarm going off unexpectedly.

In these cases, I think the explanation is not so much for us (or him), but for his friends who already accept "a ghost did it" as a reasonable explanation. People like that are obviously not inclined to wondering why ghosts would hang around an old radio.

Originally Posted by jrsharp70

The batteries were in fine shape, i took them out after this happened (since even ghosts cannot drive current through an incomplete circuit, and if i do nothing, the terrorists win). Also the music stopped just fine when the power button was switched off, again, pointing to the fact that there was no real circuit malfunction.

Have you tired the batteries in any other devices? It might be haunted batteries, rather than a haunted radio.






Or a friend with new batteries and an obscure sense of humour.

[Uncayimmy]

Originally Posted by skeptigirl

Ah, but your case proves my point. Natural explanation when the truth comes out.

At the risk of getting into a semantic debate, *if* the paranormal turned out to be true, it would by definition be a natural explanation.

I don't think it makes sense to say, "Gee, if there were really ghosts, why would they rattle dishes and make clocks go off unexpectedly?" If the ghosts were like me, they would be doing the crap they are alleged to be doing. I don't think I'd be trying to make "first contact" in some scientific way, especially if I knew there was no way they could ever see me. I'd just pull a bunch of pranks.

Of course, you may differ in what you think you'd do. And the ensuing discussion would lend credibility to the belief in ghosts. I say stick to the facts. Offering accurate explanations to explain the seemingly paranormal is really about all you can do. Those who want to believe will not be dissuaded. Those with doubts will start to see a pattern and come around.

Arguing about the motivations of fantasy beings is counterproductive.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by jrsharp70

Hello,
(Author's note, i just finished an anatomy final, i am pretty hammered, but still feel i can ask my question in a straightforward manner).

i am new to the forum, but a long time follower of Randi and his awesomeness.

I have had a few experiences where i have been glad i am firmly grounded in reality, (i once heard some looney on the radio referring to an experience i had as an out-of-body experience, only to research it and find out that it was purely a case of sleep paralysis, look it up)... however this time i am having some trouble. My chemistry is not as good as it ought to be, and therefore my understanding of electronics driven by batteries needs help. I'll explain.

I have an alarm clock, analog, that is fantastically annoying. On the given alarm time, the doors beneath the face of the clock open up and a scene of a little german band is shown and an annoying song comes blaring out.

The issue is, after a year of me not changing the dead batteries, the song managed to go off one day, clearly, as if they were fresh. However, there was not power to the second hand, it never ticked.

Now i have people who have claimed for a long time that the house was "haunted" telling me it is the ghost.

So my question is, i know that batteries can slowly build up potential back into the cells over time, however i am uncertain as to why the hands of the clock did not continue to drain the batteries enough that the alarm would not sound. Also, it went off without the hands being on the correct alarm time.

Anyone who knows more than i do about power cells, the power required to play music versus that needed for mechanical motion, or just a similar story, i'd appreciate some input. This is not a trolling post, i don't have any illusions of the easter bunny, ghosts, santa or jesus on his white horse. I am just looking for a little scientific insight.

Thanks

Your house is haunted. That is the only explanation.

[screensnot]

My guess is that the German band playing the song isn't powered directly from the batteries, but powered by a wound spring or such.

[Akhenaten]

Without being able to offer a proper explanation, I can possibly add some clues.

Unbelievably, I have a similar clock, with a cuckoo in place of the German band, and it behaves in much the same manner.

My clock has two AA batteries in it, with the mechanical parts being powered by one battery and the music by the other. Generally, the mechanical parts use up their battery much sooner than the music generator, and the hands stop. The music will, however, continue to play occasionally at random for months after this happens.

I believe that changes in temperature/humidity may be what triggers the music, particularly since the clock is in a bathroom, although I think that slight mechanical vibrations of the house caused by washing machines, passing trains etc may also contribute.

As stated, I don't have a real explanation, but I hope I've provided something that the smart folks can work with.

Cheers,

Dave

[Akhenaten]

Well, curiosity got the better of me.

I had a closer look at my clock and have observed the following:

1. The switch provided to manually select and play a tune consists of a small piece of thin plastic covering two springy metal strips separated by a gap of < 1mm.

2. The whole clock (inside), including the switch, is very dusty.

3. The clock is located < 1m from the shower cubicle, near the ceiling. Massive variations in humidity must occur in a position like that.


I posit that what's happening is that after the clockwork stops, the dust buildup between the contacts of the switch is occasionally moistened to the extent that it conducts sufficiently to complete the circuit, perhaps aided by slight mechanical vibration.

My conclusion will be affected by confirmation bias, since this is what I had in mind at the outset, but I hope it helps.

[jrsharp70]

Thanks, now we are getting to some real thinking. I have pretty much resigned this to an issue of a slight regeneration of charge over time due to some events such as movement of batteries within the unit or cold or something. The idea that 2 batteries power the music and 2 power the clock is a real duh sort of thing, should have thought of that.

In any case, i lay this to rest, it is good to see people coming up with real viable answers. That and my house is probably haunted...

[Yeah_Right]

This thread reminds me of my Mother's experience with a wind up clock that hadn't been wound in quite a while. My Sister died in 1976 and some of her stuff had been stored in the basement of the family home. My mother was looking for my Sisters ring, and the the wind-up clock chimed and when she went to turn it off, the ring just happened to be in the same box as the clock. Now any woo would say my Sister's spirit made the clock sound, but I am leaning toward coincidence.