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Tags bigfoot , dna , Ed Smith , Melba Ketchum

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Old 23rd August 2011, 05:12 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by southernyahoo View Post
We need new blood, someone you wouldn't doubt.

You really need your "Sarcasm Meter" checked.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 05:20 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post

If there is a red light thumbs down it means that your hair didn't come from an unknown species of great ape. Accept that and don't play the anti-Bigfoot conspiracy card.
Well we would want to see the reasons for rejection before we just accept it belongs to something else, and yes I would want to see proof of what that something else is.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 05:26 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by southernyahoo View Post
Well we would want to see the reasons for rejection before we just accept it belongs to something else, and yes I would want to see proof of what that something else is.

I'm sure they would have to offer an explanation of why it was rejected.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 05:27 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by southernyahoo View Post
I hadn't thought of the reviewers being interested in doing it, but don't see why if they were, they would hold Ketchums paper until they could do it.

You are aiming too low. The scientific confirmation of a new species of great ape would be of paramount importance. Those reviewers would crap their pants with glee. But their job is to find legitimate and defensible ways to reject Ketchum's paper. If they cannot find that it is flawed they will want to proceed to having others examine the actual evidence and replicate the DNA analysis. Because of its significance, it would be folly to publish her paper without independant replication using the same evidence.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 05:30 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by southernyahoo View Post
Well we would want to see the reasons for rejection before we just accept it belongs to something else, and yes I would want to see proof of what that something else is.

Has Ketchum already informed you that your hair sample is from an undocumented species of great ape?
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Old 23rd August 2011, 05:35 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Has Ketchum already informed you that your hair sample is from an undocumented species of great ape?
I don't think it would be in her paper if she had any other opinion on the sample.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 05:39 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You are aiming too low. The scientific confirmation of a new species of great ape would be of paramount importance. Those reviewers would crap their pants with glee. But their job is to find legitimate and defensible ways to reject Ketchum's paper. If they cannot find that it is flawed they will want to proceed to having others examine the actual evidence and replicate the DNA analysis. Because of its significance, it would be folly to publish her paper without independant replication using the same evidence.
As I understand it, there were multiple labs involved in her study, and they had independently done the sequencing to back check what she had found.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 05:49 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by southernyahoo View Post
I don't think it would be in her paper if she had any other opinion on the sample.

So she hasn't actually confirmed anything with you personally?


Quote:
As I understand it, there were multiple labs involved in her study, and they had independently done the sequencing to back check what she had found.
Then it's ready to be peer reviewed by people that she hasn't chosen. Then replicated by labs that she hasn't chosen.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 06:03 PM   #289
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"Yeah, 3 of the skin tags retrieved from the samples did not match or "NO MATCH FOUND" according to computer analysis. Weird, huh? As far as I can tell, I can't match the sequencing codes exactly to any animal/human. This can be due to a number of reasons, however, the skin tags appeared in really good shape. I'm not officially allowed to say that they belong to a squatch but another explanation is highly unprobable given the location, time of year, and the appearance (size, shape, color, thickness, etc.)."
I find that quite suspicious. 3 of the tags? This suggests there are other tags for which there were results. What happened with the other tags?

Not allowed to say it's a squatch? What kind of garbage is that? Of course he can't say it's a squatch!

He can't possibly say it's a squatch, even if it actually is a squatch. He has nothing to reference it with.

Highly unprobable? Given the appearance? What sort of clown technician was this?

I don't think I have ever read a more comical hair analysis.

Don't take your samples to a footer if you want an honest appraisal.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 06:15 PM   #290
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Update: We attended the Honobia Bigfoot Festival on the weekend of Oct. 3,4,5 where one of the speakers was Dr. Jeff Meldrum. We explained the issue we were having with getting the hair identified and gave him a sample of around a dozen hairs and are standing by for his findings. We will update this page when we have his results.
What were Meldrum's findings?
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Old 23rd August 2011, 06:37 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
What were Meldrum's findings?
To my knowledge he never did anything with them, he may still have them, we just never heard anything back from him.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 06:40 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I find that quite suspicious. 3 of the tags? This suggests there are other tags for which there were results. What happened with the other tags?

Not allowed to say it's a squatch? What kind of garbage is that? Of course he can't say it's a squatch!

He can't possibly say it's a squatch, even if it actually is a squatch. He has nothing to reference it with.

Highly unprobable? Given the appearance? What sort of clown technician was this?

I don't think I have ever read a more comical hair analysis.

Don't take your samples to a footer if you want an honest appraisal.
Well that tech may well have been right, it wasn't Dr. K.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 06:41 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
So she hasn't actually confirmed anything with you personally?




Then it's ready to be peer reviewed by people that she hasn't chosen. Then replicated by labs that she hasn't chosen.
Yes Dr. K. thinks they are legit and consistent with her many other samples.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 06:42 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by southernyahoo View Post
Well we would want to see the reasons for rejection before we just accept it belongs to something else, and yes I would want to see proof of what that something else is.
A rejection would be addressed to Ketchum, not you. Will she give a you a copy or instead give you her interpretation?
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Old 23rd August 2011, 06:51 PM   #295
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"Yeah, 3 of the skin tags retrieved from the samples did not match or "NO MATCH FOUND" according to computer analysis.
What about the rest of the tags? What did they match?

Does "NO MATCH FOUND" actually mean anything? It doesn't, right?
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Old 23rd August 2011, 06:54 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post

Don't take your samples to a footer if you want an honest appraisal.
You are free to name a scientist too. You name them and I'll make a footer out of them.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 06:57 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by southernyahoo View Post
You are free to name a scientist too. You name them and I'll make a footer out of them.
Nope. Not my samples, not my responsibility to get them properly tested.

Of course, given where they were found, I wouldn't see any reason to test them.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 08:01 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Nope. Not my samples, not my responsibility to get them properly tested.

Of course, given where they were found, I wouldn't see any reason to test them.
Darn, I would have thought you would know a good one.

It doesn't matter where they are from, there is no place good enough for bigfoot right? What matters is what this physical evidence belongs to, and why it would be published if it wasn't something of great interest. It must belong to some known right? That would be an easy ID for any specialist in the field of DNA.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 08:16 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
What about the rest of the tags? What did they match?

Does "NO MATCH FOUND" actually mean anything? It doesn't, right?
I think I sent that tech 5 hairs. One was short and very fine, more like an undercoat hair. The tech mentioned one hair that tested 62% positive for fox. That didn't make any real sense, it could still have been anything. The three tags were likely the longer dark wavy hair you can see in the picture. they were producing sequences but not matching anything they were compared to. That left one hair which the tech went ahaead and ran the test on with the same result.

The no match result only means that for some reason nothing was comparable. That is something I'm hoping Dr. K can make sense of.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 08:26 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
A rejection would be addressed to Ketchum, not you. Will she give a you a copy or instead give you her interpretation?
I doubt I would see a copy of that. I would likely take her word for any rejection then wait and see if it is resubmitted to another journal.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 08:38 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by southernyahoo View Post
Darn, I would have thought you would know a good one.

It doesn't matter where they are from, there is no place good enough for bigfoot right? What matters is what this physical evidence belongs to, and why it would be published if it wasn't something of great interest. It must belong to some known right? That would be an easy ID for any specialist in the field of DNA.
It would never occur to me to think a bigfoot mauled that tree. Not even when I was a teen and wanted to see a bigfoot. That behavior is quite typical of well known animals.

ID'ing hairs always seems to be problematic anyway.

Most likely you are already pretty sure what the hairs are actually from. Not too many creatures do that to a tree and have hairs that long.

Meldrum's lack of response is also telling, imo. He would certainly be trumpeting any result that could remotely be used to promote bigfoot, such as "unknown". Most likely he knew immediately and didn't bother.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 08:38 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You are aiming too low. The scientific confirmation of a new species of great ape would be of paramount importance. Those reviewers would crap their pants with glee. But their job is to find legitimate and defensible ways to reject Ketchum's paper. If they cannot find that it is flawed they will want to proceed to having others examine the actual evidence and replicate the DNA analysis. Because of its significance, it would be folly to publish her paper without independant replication using the same evidence.
I can understand that, and I'll be there if they want another sample.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 08:41 PM   #303
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The tech mentioned one hair that tested 62% positive for fox. That didn't make any real sense
Yes. I would run away from that tech...
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Old 23rd August 2011, 08:45 PM   #304
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Maybe the squatch cornered and ate a fox at the cedar tree...
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Old 23rd August 2011, 08:54 PM   #305
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[quote]
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It would never occur to me to think a bigfoot mauled that tree. Not even when I was a teen and wanted to see a bigfoot. That behavior is quite typical of well known animals.
Yes , the candidates were bovine, bison, horse, and the long shot bear.

Quote:
ID'ing hairs always seems to be problematic anyway.
With good root tissue tags the success rate is high to ID them.

Quote:
Most likely you are already pretty sure what the hairs are actually from. Not too many creatures do that to a tree and have hairs that long.
Thats why I didn't give up on them.

Quote:
Meldrum's lack of response is also telling, imo. He would certainly be trumpeting any result that could remotely be used to promote bigfoot, such as "unknown". Most likely he knew immediately and didn't bother.
He may have been as skeptical as you are about them, but he's not really a hair expert either. We figured he might persue it since he's trying to collect hair samples as well, and would potentially have the funding to test them out. I think he follows Henners hair criteria, which if these are bigfoot hairs, he doesn't know them all either.
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Old 23rd August 2011, 10:08 PM   #306
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With good root tissue tags the success rate is high to ID them.
Apparently not in this case. You seem to be all over the place with these. Why would that be?

Will you ask Meldrum about the samples? Maybe get them back if he isn't going to get them examined?
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Old 24th August 2011, 04:08 AM   #307
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[quote]
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Apparently not in this case. You seem to be all over the place with these. Why would that be?
Not sure I follow, if the samples were a known animal we would know by now. All you have to do is recommend another scientist to test them that is above reproach, surely it's not Meldrum.


Quote:
Will you ask Meldrum about the samples? Maybe get them back if he isn't going to get them examined?
What if I want him to have those. I have more
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Old 24th August 2011, 04:20 AM   #308
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Does bigfoot have long hair or short hair?
Since Patty obviously had short hair why is everyone so hung up on finding long hair.
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Old 24th August 2011, 05:21 AM   #309
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[quote=southernyahoo;7505212]
Quote:

Not sure I follow, if the samples were a known animal we would know by now.
And if they were an unknown animal you would know by now. You would have it's DNA profile. Somehow you don't seem to, despite multiple tests.
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Old 24th August 2011, 08:08 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by southernyahoo View Post
Yes, the candidates were bovine, bison, horse, and the long shot bear.

Looking at your many hair samples, we see that the hairs are quite wavy or curly. Hardly anything really straight in there.

This is something very different from the typical description (verbal, sketch or film) of Bigfoot hair. Imagine a hominoid creature covered with this kind of hair. It's going to look like a bushy mass with little opportunity to see underlying body details or contours. This is entirely different than what we see in the PGF.

This hair characteristic is so much unlike any primate that it should be the leading descriptor in any eyewitness account. "My God, it looked like a giant human but it had something like an afro or perm from head to toe."
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Old 24th August 2011, 10:05 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Does bigfoot have long hair or short hair?
Since Patty obviously had short hair why is everyone so hung up on finding long hair.
You can't dictate what length of hair you would find. The length can help rule out alot of animals. Where are the measurements of pattys hair, or is that subjective opinion?
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Old 24th August 2011, 10:07 AM   #312
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[quote=LTC8K6;7505396]
Originally Posted by southernyahoo View Post

And if they were an unknown animal you would know by now. You would have it's DNA profile. Somehow you don't seem to, despite multiple tests.
Yeah, I would know, but having the DNA doesn't mean I could interpret it. Thats why I would rather a scientist publish on it in the peer review process.
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Old 24th August 2011, 10:15 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Looking at your many hair samples, we see that the hairs are quite wavy or curly. Hardly anything really straight in there.

This is something very different from the typical description (verbal, sketch or film) of Bigfoot hair. Imagine a hominoid creature covered with this kind of hair. It's going to look like a bushy mass with little opportunity to see underlying body details or contours. This is entirely different than what we see in the PGF.

This hair characteristic is so much unlike any primate that it should be the leading descriptor in any eyewitness account. "My God, it looked like a giant human but it had something like an afro or perm from head to toe."
Looks a little like human pubes. If I had to guess from the pics I'd say black bear.
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Old 24th August 2011, 10:15 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Looking at your many hair samples, we see that the hairs are quite wavy or curly. Hardly anything really straight in there.

This is something very different from the typical description (verbal, sketch or film) of Bigfoot hair. Imagine a hominoid creature covered with this kind of hair. It's going to look like a bushy mass with little opportunity to see underlying body details or contours. This is entirely different than what we see in the PGF.

This hair characteristic is so much unlike any primate that it should be the leading descriptor in any eyewitness account. "My God, it looked like a giant human but it had something like an afro or perm from head to toe."
I agree, the animal would look pretty shaggy if covered head to toe, however the hairs might have come from the arm where it is said to hang a bit longer. Longer arms and occasional quadrupedal locomotion might explain why the hair had picked up the cockel burrs and why the hairs had been pulled out by the root in oder to remove the burrs.

Humans are primates right?
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Old 24th August 2011, 10:37 AM   #315
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If you check the BBB reports on Melba Ketchum's business, you will see quite a few complaints against her, several claiming that she returned dna analysis that is impossible, given the samples she was given. I put zero faith in her abilities, to be honest.
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Old 24th August 2011, 12:19 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Looks a little like human pubes. If I had to guess from the pics I'd say black bear.
Yeah, that's what most people would have said upon seeing the tree and the hairs...

That's what a well known footer said too.

Quote:
Dr. Fahrenbach responded with his results first and claimed that without a doubt the sample was Black Bear.
I think Meldrum agrees....

They could have saved a lot of money and effort.
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Old 24th August 2011, 01:23 PM   #317
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But a black bear doesn't have curly hair. I can't see how it could be that.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
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Old 24th August 2011, 02:05 PM   #318
William Parcher
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Many cows have the right stuff.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
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Old 24th August 2011, 03:03 PM   #319
southernyahoo
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yeah, that's what most people would have said upon seeing the tree and the hairs...

That's what a well known footer said too.
Thats a pretty good observation, though I think the hairs are longer than most, just a guess there.



Quote:
I think Meldrum agrees....

They could have saved a lot of money and effort.
I agree with Parcher, your standard bear hair is shorter and more straight. In morphology the suspect hairs don't have the uniserial ladder medulla either. This is something that I think Henner missed.
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Old 24th August 2011, 03:19 PM   #320
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Here is a comparison of bear, chimp, and the unknown.

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