Another Mineta thread

[BCR]

Originally Posted by tfk

This video does not sound authentic to me.

I notice that it was just posted (1 day ago). Anyone know its source, background, vetting, etc?

Did you not read the title clip? Andrews AFB ATC audio. Source: Me

ETA: I kept all of these audios online for years. But finally I realized I was an idiot spending hundreds of dollars a year in bandwidth just to keep them online. I put a lot of them on MegaUploads, but drats, the federal government put an end to that. So, if you need the source files, they can still be downloaded in a bulk package here.

[Reheat]

I'm not sure why Tom is questioning the authenticity this audio file. Cheney said he gave a shoot down authorization at around 10:15 (he gave it to the Secret Service who were communicating with Andrews AFB). The audio tape time is 10:16.

We also know that the Andrews Fighters had shoot down authority when they launched, as well, based on their statements. They did not receive the NORAD frequencies and eventually fall under the control of NORAD until sometime in the 10:45 - 11:00 time frame.

The Langley Fighters were overhead DC at this time, but as far as I know they did not receive this information thru NORAD. They eventually had shoot down authorization some time later. (Exact time is unknown to me)

[BCR]

Originally Posted by tfk

This video does not sound authentic to me.

I notice that it was just posted (1 day ago). Anyone know its source, background, vetting, etc?

Here ya go. Uploaded the source file for you just so there will be no misunderstandings

[tfk]

Originally Posted by BCR

Did you not read the title clip? Andrews AFB ATC audio. Source: Me

ETA: I kept all of these audios online for years. But finally I realized I was an idiot spending hundreds of dollars a year in bandwidth just to keep them online. I put a lot of them on MegaUploads, but drats, the federal government put an end to that. So, if you need the source files, they can still be downloaded in a bulk package here.

I appreciate what you've provided.

I simply asked for the source & vetting.

You can't be the source, BC, because you didn't make the recording.

I see (& saw) that you say that it came from Andrews ATC. I assume your post means that you got if from somebody. Perhaps as a part of an FOIA request. That would be the info that I was asking for.

I said that it doesn't sound authentic to me. I didn't say that it wasn't authentic.

I was asking simply because it is always good to check. I don't mind if truthers use crappy, unverified, falsified recordings (with sounds of explosions added, for example). I do mind if debunkers start getting sloppy with our info.

You have clearly got authentic recordings here.

Having heard the rest of the recording, now I'm sure.

Thank you.
___

By way of explanation...

The thing that sounds strange is that it sounds too clean, no chatter of any sort in the background, nobody stepping on his transmission, no loss of squelch, etc.

This is very unusual for any ATC that I've ever heard in any high traffic, urban area. Especially on the east coast, in the Washington - Boston corridor. Usually you've got 4 - 10 pilots waiting for someone to take a breath so that they can break in & state their requests.

The same warning starting at 37:25 sounds like the transmissions that I'm used to hearing. Messy.

But the thing that fooled me is that all of my experience has been with civilian ATCs at civilian airfields.

Listening to the source file you then posted (preceding post), I can tell that the recording is authentic.

What is clear from listening to the file that you posted is that Andrews dealt with far, far fewer planes than any of the civilian airports in the Washington area on that date & time. I can also tell that there is far more dead air on the tower frequencies than I am used to.

There is simply far, far fewer military aircraft operating than civilian.
___

BTW, one transmission (starting @ 20:05) sounds like it says that "Bully 1 & 2 will be parking on Echo & Army with Live".

Reheat, does "... with Live" refer to armaments?

Later (@31:28 ), Bully 1 has returned, and the tower says "Bully 1, taxi to arm. Echo is closed."

Same question. What is "arm"?
___

Also, anyone who thinks that there was a stand-down should start listening at @ 20:50. At about 21:50, Bully-1 gets order to take off to intercept a plane. It is imminently clear from the recording that there is zero dickaround factor in getting him off the ground.

Again at 25:00, a second flight (CAPS 1) requests permission to depart. There is ZERO hesitation. He's gone.


tom

[BCR]

Originally Posted by tfk

You can't be the source, BC, because you didn't make the recording.

Yes I did. I made the little YouTube video all by my little lonesome. But of course I did copy/paste that little segment of audio from a larger file created by the FAA from the original ADW recording.

[Reheat]

Tom, echo taxiway was apparently being used for arming the fighters. Perhaps it was temporary for some reason....maybe closer to the armament storage area, perhaps...

Yea, arming live is referring to arming the aircraft with real live weapons. They began arming the fighters returning from NC immediately upon their return from that mission except for Bully 1, then began arming him after his short excursion over the Pentagon and up the river a bit...

Caps was Sasserville and Penny a separate flight of two that were only partially armed. If you listened later the Wild flight was maybe the same aircraft as the returning Bully 2 & 3 rearmed and refueled. If so they did the refueling and rearming in about 45 minutes or so... Amazing!

They can refuel and load weapons at he same time if necessary (If it was the same aircraft, they did do that). It's dangerous, but they do practice that. They can also refuel and load weapons with the engines running. Now, that is really dangerous, but the capability exists. A-10's do that routinely in order to generate sorties more rapidly...

One of the most impressive things about this in my view that's not on the tape is that Bully 1 launched with very little fuel, taking-off with no afterburner and then returning with Emergency Fuel, no doubt. He sounds calm, but he was extremely short on fuel and flew a straight-in approach. He also went to the arming area and was being regenerated to fly again...

Once they made the decision to go the folks at Andrews really hustled in generating aircraft. There was no "foot dragging" and they did a phenomenal job of getting it all together...

The ANG has mostly very experienced and capable people who enjoy what they do and are very good at it... They don't have the discipline problems and some of the other extraneous issues that plagues the active force.

All military airfields are not as slow as Andrews was on the tape.. But, they generally don't have the same amount of traffic as a busy civilian airport. It's sporadic and not consistent like busy civilian ones...

Regarding the radio clarity... Most military towers transmit on both VHF and UHF simultaneously, so maybe that makes a difference combined with less busy radio traffic...

You probably noted that both Ground and Tower were being handled by the same controller. That is not normal as they are usually separate, but obviously they were not busy, so they combined the two during the period of the tape...

[tfk]

Originally Posted by BCR

Yes I did. I made the little YouTube video all by my little lonesome. But of course I did copy/paste that little segment of audio from a larger file created by the FAA from the original ADW recording.

BC,

No, you didn't make the recording that I wanted to validate, unless you knew about 9/11 ahead of time & managed to talk your way into the Andrews AFB ATC with a recorder & plug into their radios. which I certainly doubt.

I was not trying to validate the authenticity of a YouTube recording. That is irrelevant to me & I'll go out on a limb by saying "irrelevant to anyone".

I was trying to validate the authenticity of the voice & the events represented in the recording from Andrews ATC.

The original recording that you provided could easily have been a hoax.

It is my responsibility (IMO) to verify that the info that I spread to others is valid, is not a hoax.

If I ever cite your recording, it is my obligation to make sure that it is not a hoax.

There are a couple of ways to do that.

One is to check on the paper trail of the ORIGINAL information.

This is: person speaking, identified by name and/or occupation
was recorded by: exact group
on: exact date

It was obtained by: person
directly from: organization
on: date

Along with some reasonable statement of the path that the info took to your hands.

This is the same process that one goes thru validating ANY info.

A second way to get a very good indication of its veracity is by listening to more of the recording. This method is not foolproof, but in this case, is good enough to be conclusive.

In my opinion. Probably not in some Truthers' opinions, who believe that da gubbamint can fake any recording that it wants.

The point here is that you know the big picture associated with all of your info (if you've done your homework).

I don't.

Asking for validation of all information is not only reasonable. It is (again, IMO) obligatory.

It is not questioning your honesty. That is EXACTLY the knee jerk, soap opera, theatrical response that charlatans like Steven Jones, Chandler, Harrit, et al. take. You'll note that Millette, whenever asked detail questions about his methods does not get offended, fly off the handle & storm out of the conversation. He simply answers the questions. Contrast that response to the responses of Jones & Harrit & Chandler.

Thanks for the recording.


tom

[FrankHT]

Originally Posted by gumboot

It's probably worth explaining to people what you mean by "course update".

The FAA has a system called the Traffic Situational Display (TSD) which is a map of all logged flight paths. The various centres can update this display when they change an aircraft's flight path for whatever reason.

The TSD is an independent system which is not updated by radar data, nor is it based on radar data.

Yet,you're claiming they used the TSD to 'track' aircraft they KNEW were off course and NOT following their filed flight plan ! Then turn round & say everyone did a bang up,good job on 911. Lol,it's extreme incompetence at the very least,yet not a single head rolled ! How do you explain that? Certainly THEY KNOW how THEIR OWN system works,don't they?

[BCR]

Originally Posted by tfk

BC,
I was not trying to validate the authenticity of a YouTube recording. That is irrelevant to me & I'll go out on a limb by saying "irrelevant to anyone".

I was trying to validate the authenticity of the voice & the events represented in the recording from Andrews ATC.

The original recording that you provided could easily have been a hoax.

It is my responsibility (IMO) to verify that the info that I spread to others is valid, ....


tom

Then listen to the original recordings. They have been in the public domain now for years. Don't rant at me because you don't do your homework.

[Boone 870]

Just wanted to bump this thread to add some more documentation and references for the future when the subject gets rehashed again. Belger claimed he did not talk to Mineta about the plane that struck the Pentagon.

Monte Belger interview with commission staff.

Quote:

He does remember hearing about and A/C bearing down on WH at low altitude before Pentagon strike. Does not recall talking to Mineta about this.

PDF page 19: http://911myths.com/images/c/cc/Team...onteBelger.pdf



This may be the same source with a little different wording.

Quote:

Belger clearly recalled reports of a "high speed VFR" headed eastward, though Belger does not recall speaking with the Secretary about this. The aircraft was characterized as an unidentified primary radar track that airtraffic had identified east of Dulles.

Page 5: http://www.scribd.com/doc/17183201/t...-42004-Mfr-835


Mineta stating that Mrs. Cheney was also in the PEOC when he arrived. (3:45)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=u-5PKQTUz5o

"AUTHOR" (codename for Mrs. Cheney) was logged into the PEOC at 9:52. According to Aidan Monaghan's book, page 41.


Secret Service agent says he does not move the vice president until after AA77 made its turn to the south.

Quote:

No move [is] made to evacuate the vice president” from his White House office. The officer who takes the call will explain, “[I was] about to push the alert button when the tower advised that the aircraft was turning south and approaching Reagan National Airport.

http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...kcheney&timeli...

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Boone 870

...
Secret Service agent says he does not move the vice president until after AA77 made its turn to the south.


http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...kcheney&timeli...

That's the turn south to begin the 330° loop, right?
According to the NTSB Flight Path Study, that was at 09:34, and AA77 was about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon.

The claim that they didn't start moving Cheney out of his White House office until after this time, 9:34, would be at odds with the Secret Service log in Aidan Monaghan's book, page 41, which has the Cheney group entering the PEOC at 9:33.

But either way, Cheney would have been too late to the PEOC to be told AA77 was out 50 miles, and Mineta would have been too late for that twice over.

[Boone 870]

Originally Posted by Oystein

That's the turn south to begin the 330° loop, right?

You are correct.

Quote:

According to the NTSB Flight Path Study, that was at 09:34, and AA77 was about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon.

The claim that they didn't start moving Cheney out of his White House office until after this time, 9:34, would be at odds with the Secret Service log in Aidan Monaghan's book, page 41, which has the Cheney group entering the PEOC at 9:33.

I also have doubts about the 9:33 time of arrival for Cheney at the PEOC. As you said, they didn't remove him until 9:34, and they had no specific reason to come in and basically carry him out of the room until the controllers at Dulles called the White House to warn them of the approaching aircraft. The vice president also stopped in the tunnel before the PEOC and called the president before entering.

Quote:

But either way, Cheney would have been too late to the PEOC to be told AA77 was out 50 miles, and Mineta would have been too late for that twice over.

You are correct again.

I'm currently looking for more verification of Mrs. Cheney's arrival time to add to the reasons why Mineta was wrong.

[Boone 870]

Finally, after six years of existence the pilots for 9/11 truth forum has made itself useful for something.

Quote:

SA XXX notified Mrs. Cheney on both crashes, as they were being reported on television. SA XXX told SA YYY that the JOC was reporting on AAA of an inbound aircraft heading toward the White House. SA XXX decided to evacuate Mrs. Cheney to the Naval Observatory. While motorcading to the Naval Observatory, XXX contacted ASAIC ZZZ via telephone. ZZZ told XXX that the suspect airplane had crashed into the Pentagon. Since the motorcade was on 15th street and near the White House, ZZZ advised XXX to respond to the White House shelter and join Vice President Cheney. XXX stated that the motorcade arrived at the White House through Gate A-5 and was met by ZZZ who escorted Mrs. Cheney directly to the shelter area. They arrived in the shelter approximately 9:52 a.m.

XXX noted that personnel were in the process of evacuating the White House as their motorcade arrived.

Link to this quote can be found in post #12 on this thread:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/i...howtopic=22200

Or this link for direct download:

http://www.mediafire.com/?vydb4nxdmyy#!

[Senenmut]

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Finally, after six years of existence the pilots for 9/11 truth forum has made itself useful for something.



Link to this quote can be found in post #12 on this thread:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/i...howtopic=22200

Or this link for direct download:

http://www.mediafire.com/?vydb4nxdmyy#!

remember what belger said:

Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey
got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45)which was implemented. Belger continued to monitor the system as it executed this
order. All aircraft were down and the system grounded by 12:15.

from mineta's commission record:

"within a few minutes, american flight 77 crashed into the pentagon. at this time, as we discussed the situation with the north american aerospace defense (norad) commander and his staff, we considered implementing an emergency system of coordinated air traffic management to allow maximum use for defensie activities. it was clear that we had to clear the airspace as soon as possible to stop any further attacks and ensure domestic airspace was available for emeregency and defensive use. so, at approximately 9:45am less than one hr after i had first been notified of an airplane crash in new york, i gave the faa the final order for all civil aircraft to land at the nearest airport as soon as possible. it was the first shutdown of civil aviation in the history of the united states."

see how belger is right on target with what mineta says.

[Boone 870]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

see how belger is right on target with what mineta says.

Belger has also said that the order to land all aircraft came from the ATCSCC (I'll try to dig up the quote when I have more time).

He also said he does not recall talking to Mineta about the "high-speed VFR" that was first reported east of Dulles, the aircraft that eventually crashed into the Pentagon.

Also, Mineta said that Mrs. Cheney was already in the PEOC when he arrived. The Secret Service did not take her there until after the Pentagon crash.

[Dog Town]

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Also, Mineta said that Mrs. Cheney was already in the PEOC when he arrived. The Secret Service did not take her there until after the Pentagon crash.

Debunked! Sadly, it won't help anyone touting the bogus "Colby" claim in their sig. Nice work though!

[Senenmut]

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Belger has also said that the order to land all aircraft came from the ATCSCC (I'll try to dig up the quote when I have more time).

ok so? belger puts mineta saying that at 945.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

He also said he does not recall talking to Mineta about the "high-speed VFR" that was first reported east of Dulles, the aircraft that eventually crashed into the Pentagon.

the plane coming down the river approach that berger was relaying to mineta was probably NOT what crashed into the pentagon. so berger was correct in saying that. berger probably saw the radar tracks after it happened. mineta said he also saw the radar tracks after it happened. from those tracts, berger probably felt that the down the river approacing aircraft (or whatever it was) was in fact not 77. so belger did not talk to mineta about what hit the pentagon.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Also, Mineta said that Mrs. Cheney was already in the PEOC when he arrived. The Secret Service did not take her there until after the Pentagon crash.

i think you got the hots for mrs cheney!! mineta has a series of events that take place that makes sense. even belger states he gave the order at 945. it makes sense. period.

[Boone 870]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

ok so? belger puts mineta saying that at 945.

Not necessarily. We don't know if the "(9:45)" was a note made by the person interviewing him or if Belger actually said it himself. We'll know for sure when they release the recordings of the interview.

Let's say he did say 9:45. That still does not put Mineta in the PEOC as flight 77 approached DC, it only puts him there before the commission's claimed time.

Others agree that Mineta thinks he ordered ATC zero when he actually didn't:

Quote:

Until last Tuesday, when, at the end of a speech before the Aero Club of Washington, D.C., the Washington Post's veteran transportation reporter Don Phillips let the cat out of the bag. Phillips told his audience he felt it necessary to make a "historical correction," although FAA officials had begged him to maintain the fiction. Phillips proposed, charitably, that Mineta's order was a simple misunderstanding; that the secretary was unaware that "[f]or at least 15 minutes before Mineta's conversation with the FAA, controllers were bringing the planes down ... at the nearest airport."

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Norman_Mineta

Quote:

the plane coming down the river approach that berger was relaying to mineta was probably NOT what crashed into the pentagon. so berger was correct in saying that.

If that is what you believe, then what is there left to debate?

Quote:

berger probably saw the radar tracks after it happened. mineta said he also saw the radar tracks after it happened. from those tracts, berger probably felt that the down the river approacing aircraft (or whatever it was) was in fact not 77. so belger did not talk to mineta about what hit the pentagon.

Sorry, Belger says the "high-speed primary" was the plane that crashed into the Pentagon and knew it before he got a phone with Mineta.

Quote:

i think you got the hots for mrs cheney!! mineta has a series of events that take place that makes sense. even belger states he gave the order at 945. it makes sense. period.

No, it does not make sense. Mineta/Belger describe an aircraft approaching from the northwest when American 77 approached from the west.

Mrs. Cheney is irrelevant. However, what the Secret Service says is.

[Senenmut]

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Not necessarily. We don't know if the "(9:45)" was a note made by the person interviewing him or if Belger actually said it himself. We'll know for sure when they release the recordings of the interview.

to me, it reads as though belger said 945 and then the person writing the memo just paraphrased or gave a quick synopsis of the event. so when are they suppose to release the interview? it would be nice if someone could interview belger!

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Let's say he did say 9:45. That still does not put Mineta in the PEOC as flight 77 approached DC, it only puts him there before the commission's claimed time.

even if the down the river approaching target was not what hit the pentagon, it happened very close to when the pentagon got hit.
there is a whole logical flow about mineta's timeline:
mineta:
"Then they came in and said it was 10 miles out. Soon after that, I was talking to the deputy director of the FAA, and he told me they had lost the target off the screen. Soon after that, then, the vice president was informed that there was an explosion at the Pentagon. So I was trying to relate with the air traffic controllers where that plane went to see whether it was close to the Pentagon. The radar is very difficult to pinpoint it to a ground location.
But while I was talking to the FAA, someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon.
Well, its like anything else, if you see one of something occur you consider that an accident. But when you see two of the same thing occur then you know that there is a pattern or a trend. In this instant we had three of the same thing occur, and that is a program or a plan. So I then informed the FAA to bring all the airplanes down."

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Others agree that Mineta thinks he ordered ATC zero when he actually didn't:

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Norman_Mineta

that story you linked reads like fiction.
from the link- "although FAA officials had begged him to maintain the fiction..."
who are these unnamed faa officials so we can ask them. haha...

Originally Posted by Boone 870

If that is what you believe, then what is there left to debate?

what we can debate is what that "bogey" was coming from the down the river approach. was it a wargame "input".
from blogger:
NORAD OPERATIONS CENTER ASKS FOR 'EXERCISE INPUTS' TO BE STOPPED
At 10:12 a.m., an officer at the NORAD operations center, "Captain Taylor," called NEADS and spoke to Captain Brian Nagel, the chief of live exercises there. After introducing himself, Taylor said, "What we need you to do right now is to terminate all exercise inputs coming into Cheyenne Mountain." Nagel gave Taylor an extension number and asked him to call it to get the exercise inputs stopped. Taylor replied, "I'll do that." [4] "Inputs," according to an article in Vanity Fair, are simulated scenarios that are put into play by a simulations team during training exercises. [5]

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Sorry, Belger says the "high-speed primary" was the plane that crashed into the Pentagon and knew it before he got a phone with Mineta.

link please. so now in you mind, when mineta was speaking about the DRA bogey, was he speaking before or after belger knew about the "high-speed primary" and got on the phone with mineta? i cant follow your logic with that above sentence.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

No, it does not make sense. Mineta/Belger describe an aircraft approaching from the northwest when American 77 approached from the west.

yep. about the same time too. so when would you like that mineta/belger conversation to take place?

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Mrs. Cheney is irrelevant. However, what the Secret Service says is.

lol. as oystein pointed out, those SS people have times all over the place.

[Dog Town]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

it would be nice if someone could interview belger!

Get to it, then! Do something, other than whine!

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

...
lol. as oystein pointed out, those SS people have times all over the place.

I pointed out no such thing.

[LSSBB]

Originally Posted by Dog Town

Get to it, then! Do something, other than whine!

Hey, it's right there on his to-do list, after actually demolishing a building with nano-thermite while leaving no clues except a bunch of flakes that test the same as paint chips.

[Boone 870]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

so when are they suppose to release the interview? it would be nice if someone could interview belger!

I'm not sure when it's supposed to happen, but Miles Kara has said on his blog that the National Archives plan on releasing them eventually.

Quote:

even if the down the river approaching target was not what hit the pentagon, it happened very close to when the pentagon got hit.

Do you have any proof to back this up? Others have tried and failed.

Quote:

that story you linked reads like fiction.
from the link- "although FAA officials had begged him to maintain the fiction..."
who are these unnamed faa officials so we can ask them. haha...

The order to land all the planes come from Ben Sliney at the ATCSCC, not Mineta through Belger.

Quote:

MR. SLINEY: I believed I had the authority to do those things on that day. I was charged with the safe and efficient operation of the national airspace system. The ground stop -- the national ground stop was, one, a matter of scope, not of unfamiliarity with the remedy, but a matter of scope. And had -- since we had already put in place ground stops that covered Boston, New York, and essentially the East Coast, and those -- we still had more reports of aircraft whose course or altitude or other aspects of their flight made them suspicious in light of the crashes. The national ground stop was just a natural extension of the smaller scope ground stops. As to the order to land, that was the product of the men and women in the Command Center who gave me advice on that day, the supervisors and the specialists. We were searching for something more to do, and that was made and decided on, and the impetus for that of course was the crash into the Pentagon when we gave that order..

You can believe whatever you want, that doesn't make it true.

Quote:

what we can debate is what that "bogey" was coming from the down the river approach. was it a wargame "input".
from blogger:
NORAD OPERATIONS CENTER ASKS FOR 'EXERCISE INPUTS' TO BE STOPPED
At 10:12 a.m., an officer at the NORAD operations center, "Captain Taylor," called NEADS and spoke to Captain Brian Nagel, the chief of live exercises there. After introducing himself, Taylor said, "What we need you to do right now is to terminate all exercise inputs coming into Cheyenne Mountain." Nagel gave Taylor an extension number and asked him to call it to get the exercise inputs stopped. Taylor replied, "I'll do that." [4] "Inputs," according to an article in Vanity Fair, are simulated scenarios that are put into play by a simulations team during training exercises. [5]

Until you can prove that NORAD is capable of placing "inputs" on FAA radar screens (TSDs specifically) you're just making stuff up.

Quote:

link please. so now in you mind, when mineta was speaking about the DRA bogey, was he speaking before or after belger knew about the "high-speed primary" and got on the phone with mineta? i cant follow your logic with that above sentence.

. It's pretty simple. Belger was monitoring the primary net at the FAA headquarters. Dulles controllers were reporting the position of the high-speed VFR (what was later to be determined American 77) to the Eastern Region which was on the primary net. Belger says he learned of the pentagon crash after it happened, then got on the phone with Mineta. Belger also said he does not recall speaking to Mineta about the "high-speed VFR." All of this information was linked to earlier in this thread.

Quote:

yep. about the same time too.

Proof?

Quote:

so when would you like that mineta/belger conversation to take place?

Just before 10:28 when the projected path of United 93 was scheduled to land at DCA. About the same time the Pentagon rescue operations were halted, the same time the National Park Service helicopters were ordered away from the Pentagon due to an approaching aircraft, and about the same time an F-16 was launched from Andrews to intercept an aircraft coming down the river.

Quote:

lol. oystein pointed out, those SS people have times all over the place.

Their times may be off in a few instances, but the sequences are not. No one has put Mrs. Cheney in the PEOC before Mineta that I'm aware of.

[Senenmut]

Originally Posted by Oystein

I pointed out no such thing.

right here:

Originally Posted by Oystein

The claim that they didn't start moving Cheney out of his White House office until after this time, 9:34, would be at odds with the Secret Service log in Aidan Monaghan's book, page 41, which has the Cheney group entering the PEOC at 9:33.

have you read all the way through aiden FOIA paper. page 5 of 18 reads that:
"upon arrival at the shelter, the VP, mrs cheney, and saic zotto, vp protective divison were present. VP cheney was taking on the telephone. SAIC truscott said that he advised the group to move to the PEOC."

do you think this took place at 0933? the timeline is where the 0933 is(page 6 of 18). the timeline put the event above with mrs cheney at 0930.

[Senenmut]

Originally Posted by Boone 870

I'm not sure when it's supposed to happen, but Miles Kara has said on his blog that the National Archives plan on releasing them eventually.

cool

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Do you have any proof to back this up? Others have tried and failed.

so i now know why you want to discredit mineta!

Originally Posted by Boone 870

The order to land all the planes come from Ben Sliney at the ATCSCC, not Mineta through Belger. You can believe whatever you want, that doesn't make it true.

sliney said he had input from many people when he have the order. belger said mineta gave the order too around 0945. so no biggie about sliney.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Until you can prove that NORAD is capable of placing "inputs" on FAA radar screens (TSDs specifically) you're just making stuff up.

he was not looking at a TSD. get that through your head. they dont call tsd tracks a "target or bogey" as mineta described. ive even asked cheapshot about that.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

It's pretty simple. Belger was monitoring the primary net at the FAA headquarters. Dulles controllers were reporting the position of the high-speed VFR (what was later to be determined American 77) to the Eastern Region which was on the primary net. Belger says he learned of the pentagon crash after it happened, then got on the phone with Mineta. Belger also said he does not recall speaking to Mineta about the "high-speed VFR." All of this information was linked to earlier in this thread.

ok. belger got on the phone with mineta...ok. he didnt speak to mineta about the high speed VFR. he spoke to him about the bogey or target going the down the river approach.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Just before 10:28 when the projected path of United 93 was scheduled to land at DCA. About the same time the Pentagon rescue operations were halted, the same time the National Park Service helicopters were ordered away from the Pentagon due to an approaching aircraft, and about the same time an F-16 was launched from Andrews to intercept an aircraft coming down the river.

i know that is where you are trying to steer mineta. good luck with that!! lol what your trying to say is mineta didnt know about the pentagon attack until after 1028? after the pentagon is hit is when the whole series of events take place for him to give his "stand down" order. also, that reporter you linked to said mineta was 15mins behind on the stand down order. this 1028 time would place his order WAY later. i think your playing smoke and mirrors. mineta describes the whole series of events very well. also, when do you think belger spoke with mineta about the pentagon strike?

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Their times may be off in a few instances, but the sequences are not. No one has put Mrs. Cheney in the PEOC before Mineta that I'm aware of.

this puts her closer.

page 5 of 18 reads that:
"upon arrival at the shelter, the VP, mrs cheney, and saic zotto, vp protective divison were present. VP cheney was taking on the telephone. SAIC truscott said that he advised the group to move to the PEOC."

the timeline is where the 0933 is for the VP to enter the peoc (page 6 of 18). the timeline put the event above with mrs cheney at 0930.

[Boone 870]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

so i now know why you want to discredit mineta!

It's not about discrediting Mineta, it's about discrediting you and others who claim, with absolutely no proof, that another aircraft was approaching Washington DC from the northwest at the same time as flight 77. It never happened and I'll tell you why.

Reagan National was running North operations on the morning of 9/11. No controller has ever come forward saying there was an aircraft coming down the DRA on the morning of 9/11. It's not heard anywhere in the recordings and is not anywhere in any of the radar data.

Aircraft departing from Reagan fly up the river for noise abatement just like aircraft coming down the river. The controllers would have been throwing a fit if what you claim happened.

Quote:

sliney said he had input from many people when he have the order. belger said mineta gave the order too around 0945. so no biggie about sliney.

We don't know that for sure. What we do know, however, is that the planes were already ordered to land when Mineta gave the order to Belger:

Quote:

In Washington, FAA Administrator Jane Garvey and her deputy, Monte Belger, have been moving back and forth between a secret operations center and their offices.

Throughout the morning, staffers have kept Garvey and Belger apprised of Sliney's decisions.

Now, they tell them of the order to clear the skies. With little discussion, the FAA leaders approve.

Minutes later, Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta calls from a bunker beneath the White House, where he has joined Vice President Cheney. Belger explains that the FAA plans to land each plane at the closest airport, regardless of its destination.

Mineta concurs. FAA staffers, following the conversation over the speakerphone with Belger, pump their fists. Then the conversation sours.

Mineta asks exactly what the order means.

Belger says pilots will retain some discretion.. All the FAA deputy means is that under long-standing aviation regulations, pilots always have some discretion in the event of an emergency aboard their aircraft. But the secretary assumes the FAA is not being tough enough. "F—- pilot discretion," Mineta says. "Monte, bring down all the planes."

Pilots are already landing at their discretion after the the order to land all planes has been issued.

Quote:

he was not looking at a TSD. get that through your head. they dont call tsd tracks a "target or bogey" as mineta described. ive even asked cheapshot about that.

Sorry, the notes I linked earlier suggest otherwise.

Quote:

TSD was in the WOC on 9/11. He saw it.
Garvey/Belger did not have a TSD.
After they decided to ground all A/C he and others looked at TSD to see how many A/C were left.
Generally he fielded Mineta's calls from his office or the WOC.

Clearly he had access to a TSD.

Quote:

ok. belger got on the phone with mineta...ok. he didnt speak to mineta about the high speed VFR. he spoke to him about the bogey or target going the down the river approach.

Addressed this earlier but, this is your claim, you must prove it.

Quote:

i know that is where you are trying to steer mineta. good luck with that!! lol what your trying to say is mineta didnt know about the pentagon attack until after 1028? after the pentagon is hit is when the whole series of events take place for him to give his "stand down" order. also, that reporter you linked to said mineta was 15mins behind on the stand down order. this 1028 time would place his order WAY later. i think your playing smoke and mirrors. mineta describes the whole series of events very well. also, when do you think belger spoke with mineta about the pentagon strike?

The reporter said "at least 15 minutes before Mineta's conversation with the FAA", not 15 min. precisely.

Belger spoke with Mineta sometime after the Pentagon impact.

Quote:

this puts her closer.

page 5 of 18 reads that:
"upon arrival at the shelter, the VP, mrs cheney, and saic zotto, vp protective divison were present. VP cheney was taking on the telephone. SAIC truscott said that he advised the group to move to the PEOC."

the timeline is where the 0933 is for the VP to enter the peoc (page 6 of 18). the timeline put the event above with mrs cheney at 0930.

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. It still does not put her in the PEOC before 9:20 as Mineta has claimed.



ETA: let's say the Secret Service's time of 9:33 is correct. And let's also say by some miracle that the young man reporting the aircraft position to Cheney was already there and had the unknown aircraft located. If Mineta also miraculously arrived there minute later at 9:34, flight 77 was already less than 20 miles away from the White House. Mineta first reported the aircraft as 50 miles out (80 miles in one interview). The timing simply does not work out for you.

[Senenmut]

Originally Posted by Boone 870

It's not about discrediting Mineta, it's about discrediting you and others who claim, with absolutely no proof, that another aircraft was approaching Washington DC from the northwest at the same time as flight 77. It never happened and I'll tell you why.

Reagan National was running North operations on the morning of 9/11. No controller has ever come forward saying there was an aircraft coming down the DRA on the morning of 9/11. It's not heard anywhere in the recordings and is not anywhere in any of the radar data.

since belger was telling him about the "targert" or "bogey", i would guess it came from the faa HQ.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Aircraft departing from Reagan fly up the river for noise abatement just like aircraft coming down the river. The controllers would have been throwing a fit if what you claim happened.

not if the said bogey was in "input" from the wargames and it only confused people at faa HQ and the people their communications linked up with. the NMCC was linked up with the faa at 920. anyone else that you know of?

Originally Posted by Boone 870

We don't know that for sure. What we do know, however, is that the planes were already ordered to land when Mineta gave the order to Belger: Pilots are already landing at their discretion after the the order to land all planes has been issued.

sounds good. belger gives the order by mineta at 0945.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Sorry, the notes I linked earlier suggest otherwise. Clearly he had access to a TSD.

not when he was speaking about the DRA plane that was a "target" or a "bogey".

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Belger spoke with Mineta sometime after the Pentagon impact.

yes, but you are trying to push back his series of events to start at 1028 with the plane being 50 miles out. that makes zero sense. he would have known the pentagon was hit by then and would not have had to go threw those series of events to get to the 945 planes down order.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. It still does not put her in the PEOC before 9:20 as Mineta has claimed.

lol....its interesting that one secret service record says she didnt arrive until 0952. then another says 0930. maybe the cheneys had doubles running around to confuse everyone!!

Originally Posted by Boone 870

ETA: let's say the Secret Service's time of 9:33 is correct. And let's also say by some miracle that the young man reporting the aircraft position to Cheney was already there and had the unknown aircraft located. If Mineta also miraculously arrived there minute later at 9:34, flight 77 was already less than 20 miles away from the White House. Mineta first reported the aircraft as 50 miles out (80 miles in one interview). The timing simply does not work out for you.

your assuming that the track they say is 77 is what belger and mineta was talking about. i think something (maybe nothing but an "input") was coming in from DRA and it confused some people. isnt that a good way to attack someone. make them think they are coming from one direction but turns out they came from another.

[Reheat]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

your assuming that the track they say is 77 is what belger and mineta was talking about. i think something (maybe nothing but an "input") was coming in from DRA and it confused some people. isnt that a good way to attack someone. make them think they are coming from one direction but turns out they came from another.

Must be that mysterious woo that allows a friend to watch TV on the LCD display of his refrigerator... I keep telling him there is no connection between the two, but he insists... Did I mention that he has an alcohol and drug addiction problem? What's your excuse?

[Boone 870]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

since belger was telling him about the "targert" or "bogey", i would guess it came from the faa HQ.

No proof = pure fantasy.

Quote:

not if the said bogey was in "input" from the wargames and it only confused people at faa HQ and the people their communications linked up with. the NMCC was linked up with the faa at 920. anyone else that you know of?

Now the FAA was running wargames on 9/11??? No proof = pure fantasy.

Quote:

sounds good. belger gives the order by mineta at 0945.

Still doesn't put Mineta in the PEOC at 9:20 as he claimed.

Quote:

not when he was speaking about the DRA plane that was a "target" or a "bogey".

How could you possibly know that?

Quote:

yes, but you are trying to push Back his series of events to start at 1028 with the plane being 50 miles out. that makes zero sense. he would have known the pentagon was hit by then and would not have had to go threw those series of events to get to the 945 planes down order.

You're right, it makes no sense at all. Why would I claim that it all started at 10:28, I never said that.

It all ended at 10:28 when the TSD flight 93 landed at Reagan. Mineta and Belger's conversation took place before 10:28 when the unknown aircraft was 80/50/30/10 miles out from the White House. How could you possibly come to the conclusion that I meant after 10:28?

Quote:

lol....its interesting that one secret service record says she didnt arrive until 0952. then another says 0930. maybe the cheneys had doubles running around to confuse everyone!!

Neither of which put her in the PEOC before 9:20 as Mineta has claimed.

Quote:

your assuming that the track they say is 77 is what belger and mineta was talking about. i think something (maybe nothing but an "input") was coming in from DRA and it confused some people. isnt that a good way to attack someone. make them think they are coming from one direction but turns out they came from another.

no proof = pure fantasy

[Senenmut]

Originally Posted by Boone 870

No proof = pure fantasy.

?where do you think belger was?

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Now the FAA was running wargames on 9/11??? No proof = pure fantasy.

did i say that? nope. others were though.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Still doesn't put Mineta in the PEOC at 9:20 as he claimed.

he probably saw mrs cheney in the hall or something since the SS records show her outside at 0930. notice below he does not say on the TSD screen. he says on radar!
from mineta-
"I started to establish a direct line to the FAA to find out what was going on, and the Vice President and I were across from each other on the conference room table in the PEOC, and about this time someone came in and said this was -- when I finally got in there, it was probably about 9:27, is what I recall.
And a little later on, someone said, "Mr. Vice President, there's a plane 50-miles out." So I was talking to Monte Belger, the Deputy Director of the FAA, and I said, "Monte, what do you have 50-miles out?"
He said, "Well, we have a target, bogey, on the radar, but the transponder's been turned off, so we have no identification of this aircraft. We don't know who it is. We don't know what altitude it's at, speed or anything else. All we're doing is watching with the sweep of the radar, the dot moving from position to position."
So then someone came in, the same person came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, it -- the plane's 30-miles out." So I said, "Monte, can you see it, and where is it in relationship to the ground?"
He said, "Well, that's difficult to really determine. I would guess it's somewhere between Great Falls and National Airport, coming what they call the DRA, the down river approach."
And so then the person came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, the plane's ten-miles out," and so I said, "Monte, where is it?" and he said, "Well, I'm not really sure but I'd be guessing somewhere maybe between the USA Today building and, and National Airport."
And then pretty soon he said, "Oh-oh, we just lost the target." And so a few moments later, someone came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, there's been an explosion at the Pentagon."
So I said, "Monte, is there something -- can you identify it as being at the Pentagon?" He said, "No, we can't really pinpoint it like that."
Then about that time someone broke into our phone conversation and said, "Mr. Secretary, we've had a call from an Arlington County police officer saying that he saw an American Airlines airplane go into the Pentagon."
At that point I said, "Monte, bring all the airplanes down,"

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Norman_Mineta

Originally Posted by Boone 870

How could you possibly know that

from the above quote from mineta.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

You're right, it makes no sense at all. Why would I claim that it all started at 10:28, I never said that.

It all ended at 10:28 when the TSD flight 93 landed at Reagan. Mineta and Belger's conversation took place before 10:28 when the unknown aircraft was 80/50/30/10 miles out from the White House. How could you possibly come to the conclusion that I meant after 10:28?

sorry but it looks as though NO TSD was there:
"The TSD was not available in the Aviation Crisis Center that day. The capability existed but they did not display it."
http://911myths.com/images/1/10/Team...eikert-MFR.pdf

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Neither of which put her in the PEOC before 9:20 as Mineta has claimed.

your getting desperate! mineta said about 0927 from the above quote. the SS logs show her there at 0930. he probably saw her in the hallway or something. good god man.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

no proof = pure fantasy

here is something interesting i found:

He thinks secret service was on his primary net - Chuck Green -
He does not know from the WOC log if notification meant they were asked to join the net.
State; FBI; USSS; DOD for a short period of time; White House Situation Room; NMCC was brought in as a "listening mode". NMCC is the conduit to the Special Operations groups. He doesn't recall a male or a female voice, or DOD identifying themselves. We were trying to raise them when we were tracking the plane that crashed in the Pentagon. Belger was in the room at the time. He was monitoring both nets.
http://911myths.com/images/1/10/Team...eikert-MFR.pdf

could this be more info dealing with the bogey going the down the river approach!

[BCR]

You know, I never seen so much dancing around a moot point since the CIT days.

1) The evacuation of the White House grounds did not take place until 9:35 at the earliest. We have a video record of that evacuation (the press was part of it).

2) Mineta arrived (by his own testimony) after the evacuation began.

3) AAL77 did not follow the path described by Mineta.

However, even if all of that is not true and Mineta was in the PEOC during the approach of AAL77, so what? Changes nothing. Big deal. Who gives a crap?

[Senenmut]

Originally Posted by BCR

You know, I never seen so much dancing around a moot point since the CIT days.

dancing around? i think you should say that about boone 870...not me.

Originally Posted by BCR

1) The evacuation of the White House grounds did not take place until 9:35 at the earliest. We have a video record of that evacuation (the press was part of it).

look at page 10 of 18. second paragraph. .......first family locator board that the VP was the only one on complex and in the west wing. I heard ___ on the phone at his dest acknowledging that we were activating the emergency evacualtion plan.

that is when they picked up cheny and ran him down to the peoc. i believe some records say he was on the phone for 10 mins before even entering the peoc. the record says cheney went in at 933. the vp and mrs cheney outside the peoc at 0930. so go a few mins back to when they activated the evacuation plan and you get 0920ish. sounds like mineta timeframe to me!

Originally Posted by BCR

2) Mineta arrived (by his own testimony) after the evacuation began.

look above

Originally Posted by BCR

3) AAL77 did not follow the path described by Mineta.

no **** sherlock. that is what we have been discussing.

Edited by LashL:

Edited to properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10 re: the auto-censor.

Originally Posted by BCR

However, even if all of that is not true and Mineta was in the PEOC during the approach of AAL77, so what? Changes nothing. Big deal. Who gives a crap?

2 things
1. do the orders still stand
2. the DRA "target" or "bogey"

[BCR]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

2 things
1. do the orders still stand

Means absolutely nothing since nobody has a clue what 'order' is referred to. Except that most likely it is the "shootdown authority" eventually given to the Andrews AFB fighters (BULLY).

Originally Posted by Senenmut

2. the DRA "target" or "bogey"

As already noted, there was a UAL93 "target" in the system approaching along the "track" described by Mineta.

Those two things alone seriously discredit your suggestion that Mineta was in the PEOC at the time of AAL77's approach. However, nothing about those 2 items change the record of events one iota.

[Senenmut]

Originally Posted by BCR

Means absolutely nothing since nobody has a clue what 'order' is referred to. Except that most likely it is the "shootdown authority" eventually given to the Andrews AFB fighters (BULLY).

ok...what time was that? well somebody has a clue, that guy that took the order and was giving him the X miles out. cochran i think was his name. if remember, he has a classified account of the situation that we cant get access too.

Originally Posted by BCR

As already noted, there was a UAL93 "target" in the system approaching along the "track" described by Mineta.

that was a TSD track supposedly. from what i already posted to boone 870:

"The TSD was not available in the Aviation Crisis Center that day. The capability existed but they did not display it."

Originally Posted by BCR

Those two things alone seriously discredit your suggestion that Mineta was in the PEOC at the time of AAL77's approach. However, nothing about those 2 items change the record of events one iota.

thats if you belive it was a shoot down order instead of something else and if they actually had access to a tsd machine which the ACC did not.

[BCR]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

that was a TSD track supposedly. from what i already posted to boone 870:

"The TSD was not available in the Aviation Crisis Center that day. The capability existed but they did not display it."

Then they were looking at cartoons on TV, because they did not have radar at FAA HQ. They have TSD's.

Originally Posted by Senenmut

thats if you belive it was a shoot down order instead of something else and if they actually had access to a tsd machine which the ACC did not.

Then the "order" could just have well been for Pepperoni pizza. All they was asking Cheney is whether or not he wanted sausage instead. Since they did not have radar and you claim they had no TSD, reckon that is all that is left

[Boone 870]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

?where do you think belger was?

He was in the FAA HQ. You made the claim that another aircraft was approaching from the northwest at about the same time as Flight 77. You made the claim, now back it up or else you are just making stuff up.

Quote:

did i say that? nope. others were though.

Which "other" people said the FAA was running wargames on 9/11?

Quote:

he probably saw mrs cheney in the hall or something since the SS records show her outside at 0930.

Wishful thinking. Mineta has only said Mrs. Cheney was in the PEOC when he arrived.

Quote:

Notice below he does not say on the TSD screen. he says on radar!

Yes, he said radar. When you can prove that Belger had a radar feed in his office or at the WOC (the place he said he fielded calls from Mineta, as quoted above), I'll believe you and him.

Quote:

from the above quote from mineta.

Mineta's quote does not backup your claim that Belger did not have access to a TSD at the time of the approach of the aircraft from the northwest.

Quote:

sorry but it looks as though NO TSD was there:
"The TSD was not available in the Aviation Crisis Center that day. The capability existed but they did not display it."

You're grasping at straws here. When did Belger ever say he was in the Aviation Crisis Center? He said he was in his office and the WOC.

Quote:

your getting desperate! mineta said about 0927 from the above quote. the SS logs show her there at 0930. he probably saw her in the hallway or something. good god man.

No, I'm not getting desperate, you are making up claims that Mineta first saw her in the hallway when he has repeatedly said she was in the PEOC when he arrived.

Quote:

here is something interesting i found:

He thinks secret service was on his primary net - Chuck Green -
He does not know from the WOC log if notification meant they were asked to join the net.
State; FBI; USSS; DOD for a short period of time; White House Situation Room; NMCC was brought in as a "listening mode". NMCC is the conduit to the Special Operations groups. He doesn't recall a male or a female voice, or DOD identifying themselves. We were trying to raise them when we were tracking the plane that crashed in the Pentagon. Belger was in the room at the time. He was monitoring both nets.
http://911myths.com/images/1/10/Team...eikert-MFR.pdf

could this be more info dealing with the bogey going the down the river approach!

2 points:
The "nets" are phone nets, not radar or TSD.
Belger has repeatedly claimed he was not talking to Mineta about the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.

[Senenmut]

Originally Posted by Boone 870

He was in the FAA HQ. You made the claim that another aircraft was approaching from the northwest at about the same time as Flight 77. You made the claim, now back it up or else you are just making stuff up.

you dont believe mineta but here is another guy describing posibily the same plane. also look who he shared the info with...the ACC and secret service. didnt the SS provide the VP with the info in the PEOC. no we just need to find out where griffith got his info.

"There was a fast-mover 30 miles west of Dulles moving east bound - he did not know it was AAL 77 at the time. Griffith said he got the information on flight 77. He recalls that he had this information and he shared it with the people in the ACC. He doesn't know where the information came from. He recalls that there is a requirement at Washington National Airport to report all unusual aircraft situations to Secret Service. Someone told
him we did contact the Secret Service, so he was satisfied."

ive already linked it. its in jeffgriffith's pdf.

also from belgers pdf:
Belger was receiving "almost constant communication" with the Air Traffic group though Jeff Griffith.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Which "other" people said the FAA was running wargames on 9/11?

i didnt say that. wargames were going on. faa was not running wargames as far as i know. but info from others that were playing wargames could have got into the system. thats what im trying to figure out.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Wishful thinking. Mineta has only said Mrs. Cheney was in the PEOC when he arrived.

so who lied. the SS that put her there at 0930 or the SS people that said she didnt arrive until 0952. its not wishfull thinking if mineta showed up around 0927. mrs cheney would have been outside with her hubby making that phone call.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Yes, he said radar. When you can prove that Belger had a radar feed in his office or at the WOC (the place he said he fielded calls from Mineta, as quoted above), I'll believe you and him.

the TSD in the ACC was not up. i found out there was one in the WOC (which is on the same floor as the ACC) but belger said this about the TSD.
belger:
"Belger commented that he believes the only Traffic Situational Display (TSD) at FAA Headquarters was in the WOC. He does not know of any other TSD locations. [Note: Commission staff has learned that there are numerous TSD displays at FAA Headquarters, including the one referred to by Belger.] According to Belger, someone with air traffic experience would never use a TSD for precise data. When the airspace was cleared, the WOC used the TSD to monitor the number of aircraft still airborne.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

Mineta's quote does not backup your claim that Belger did not have access to a TSD at the time of the approach of the aircraft from the northwest.

look above.

Originally Posted by Boone 870

You're grasping at straws here. When did Belger ever say he was in the Aviation Crisis Center? He said he was in his office and the WOC.

he was all over the place. the ACC is in the same area as the WOC.
from mike weikert's file who was in the ACC:
"We were trying to raise them when we were tracking the plane that crashed in the Pentagon. Belger was in the room at the time. He was monitoring both nets."

Originally Posted by Boone 870

No, I'm not getting desperate, you are making up claims that Mineta first saw her in the hallway when he has repeatedly said she was in the PEOC when he arrived.

her times keep changing. first it was 0952. then we have her there at 0930. what time would you like for her to be there?

Originally Posted by Boone 870

2 points:
The "nets" are phone nets, not radar or TSD.
Belger has repeatedly claimed he was not talking to Mineta about the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.

i know that. like i said before, he probably found that out afterward when they showed him the offical flight path. if not, didnt someone impersonate cheapshot before 911 during one of the wargame exercises. i remember reading about that somewhere. ill try and find it.

[Boone 870]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

you dont believe mineta but here is another guy describing posibily the same plane. also look who he shared the info with...the ACC and secret service. didnt the SS provide the VP with the info in the PEOC. no we just need to find out where griffith got his info.

"There was a fast-mover 30 miles west of Dulles moving east bound - he did ot know it was AAL 77 at the time. Griffith said he got the information on flight 77. He recalls that he had this information and he shared it with the people in the ACC. He doesn't know where the information came from. He recalls that there is a requirement at Washington National Airport to report all unusual aircraft situations to Secret Service. Someone told
him we did contact the Secret Service, so he was satisfied."

ive already linked it. its in jeffgriffith's pdf.

also from belgers pdf:
Belger was receiving "almost constant communication" with the Air Traffic group though Jeff Griffith.

Again, the plane they were describing came from the west of Dulles, not from the northwest as Mineta has described. Belger said he did not discuss this plane with Mineta. No matter how hard you try and spin it, Belger was not talking to Mineta as Flight 77 approached the Pentagon.

Quote:

i didnt say that. wargames were going on. faa was not running wargames as far as i know. but info from others that were playing wargames could have got into the system. thats what im trying to figure out.

This argument is not going to fly either. Belger said he was watching it on the screen, NORAD does not have the capability to insert "inputs" on FAA radar or TSDs.

Quote:

so who lied. the SS that put her there at 0930 or the SS people that said she didnt arrive until 0952. its not wishfull thinking if mineta showed up around 0927. mrs cheney would have been outside with her hubby making that phone call.

I don't believe anyone was lying, I believe they were inaccurate with the 9:33 time of arrival in the PEOC. Other records say 9:52, other records say Mrs. Cheney was there after the Pentagon crash, and none of the records say Mineta was there before Mrs. Cheney.

Again, let's go with the 9:33 arrival time in the PEOC and put Mineta's arrival 1 min. later at 9:34. American 77 was less than 20 miles away from the White House, whereas Mineta says the plane was 80/50 miles out when he was there. The times and distances simply do not work out.

Quote:

the TSD in the ACC was not up. i found out there was one in the WOC (which is on the same floor as the ACC) but belger said this about the TSD.
belger:
"Belger commented that he believes the only Traffic Situational Display (TSD) at FAA Headquarters was in the WOC. He does not know of any other TSD locations. [Note: Commission staff has learned that there are numerous TSD displays at FAA Headquarters, including the one referred to by Belger.] According to Belger, someone with air traffic experience would never use a TSD for precise data. When the airspace was cleared, the WOC used the TSD to monitor the number of aircraft still airborne.

I'm not understanding your hangup with the ACC. If Belger had claimed he went to the ACC and stayed there for the duration of the events, you may have something. Until then, Belger said he was in his office and the WOC.

Quote:

he was all over the place. the ACC is in the same area as the WOC.
from mike weikert's file who was in the ACC:
"We were trying to raise them when we were tracking the plane that crashed in the Pentagon. Belger was in the room at the time. He was monitoring both nets."

So what? Belger was watching something on some kind of "screen." The TSD there was not working and you have been unable to prove that there were actual radar feeds at the head quarters. Even if there were, Belger was not relaying information to Mineta as flight 77 was approaching the Pentagon. Why can't you understand this simple fact?

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her times keep changing. first it was 0952. then we have her there at 0930. what time would you like for her to be there?

Addressed above.

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i know that. like i said before, he probably found that out afterward when they showed him the offical flight path.

It doesn't matter. He said he was not talking to Mineta about the aircraft that crashed into the Pentagon. The track he was describing came from the northwest.

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if not, didnt someone impersonate cheapshot before 911 during one of the wargame exercises. i remember reading about that somewhere. ill try and find it.

IT DOESN'T MATTER! NORAD cannot insert inputs into the FAA's system.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Senenmut

right here:



have you read all the way through aiden FOIA paper. page 5 of 18 reads that:
"upon arrival at the shelter, the VP, mrs cheney, and saic zotto, vp protective divison were present. VP cheney was taking on the telephone. SAIC truscott said that he advised the group to move to the PEOC."

do you think this took place at 0933? the timeline is where the 0933 is(page 6 of 18). the timeline put the event above with mrs cheney at 0930.

Again, where did I say the SS was "all over the place"? I didn't.

I said that two log entries were at odds with each other. Which they were by a few minutes. Which doesn't mean they were "all over the place". It merely means they are not both entirely accurate - as anyone would find easy to understand, given the chaotic and improvised nature of the event. I said either log entry, if about correct, would make it impossible for Mineta's statements to be both about correct: That he arrived in the PEOC after both Mr and Mrs Cheney, and to have overheard someone announcing AA77 flying in from 50 miles out.

Given Mineta's own personal timeline:

• was at his DOT office several blocks away at or after 9:03l when UA175 crashed
• cancelled a meeting with the Belgian minister
• was briefed by his staff
• talked to American Airlines CEO on the phone
• talked to United Airlines CEO on the phone
• talked with White House staffers on the phone
• made himself aware that his own staff was setting up a crisis center elsewhere in the building
• packed his briefcase
• went downstairs to car
• rode across Washington to the White House
• witnessed massive evacuation of same
• was led to the Situation Room
• talked there with Clarke for several minutes
• was then escorted away many stairs down to PEOC
• set up office there (establishing a couple of phone lines)

it would have been very unlikely that he could have been there early enough.

What his timeline and the SS logs (all of them) and the statements made by others (Cheney, Belger...) all converge on is that Mineta's recollection was faulty - he was in the PEOC after the Pentagon crash, and witnessed another plane being tracked on another route. Everything is consistent with everything else, if only you realize that Mineta errs on one, only one, detail, of which he only heard second hand and had to make sense of in retrospect. A very typical situation where memory gets confused.

[BCR]

All I want to know is what kind of pizza Cheney ordered.