Jewish-American refused bail due to Israeli Law of Return

[Thunder]

http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArt.../New_York.html

this is a fascinating ruling by the judge. he argues that because any Jew can go to Israel and become a citizen, any and all Jews are a bail flight risk.

so, any Jew, arrested for any reason in the USA, should not get bail because he may in theory fly to Israel and become a citizen? Israel has no extradition process with the USA?

boy did this judge screw up big time. Israel allows for wanted persons to be extradited to the USA for trials..and allows for criminals to be extradited to the USA for prison.

again..boy did this judge screw up.

[a_unique_person]

There is some history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Sheinbein

and

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-...playstory.html

The Wikepedia article is not clear, nor are the other articles, on just what the state of the law is at present, nor if anyone has actually been extradited from Israel back to the USA.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

There is some history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Sheinbein

and

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-...playstory.html

The Wikepedia article is not clear, nor are the other articles, on just what the state of the law is at present, nor if anyone has actually been extradited from Israel back to the USA.

well, it appears from those articles, that Israel allows for extradition, as long as Israeli nationals can serve their sentence in Israel. this does not cover Jews who are not Israeli citizens or nationals.

but again, it is racist to deny a Jew bail just because he MIGHT flee to Israel, if he finds the money and a ticket.

[gdnp]

Originally Posted by parky76

but again, it is racist to deny a Jew bail just because he MIGHT flee to Israel, if he finds the money and a ticket.

Well, it's idiotic for Israel to give citizenship to a person who is facing criminal charges in another country. They need their own Statue of Liberty: "send us your thieves, your murderers, your rapists, the REALLY retched refuse from your teeming shores."

The wikipedia article suggests that Sheinbein's case was not unique.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by gdnp

Well, it's idiotic for Israel to give citizenship to a person who is facing criminal charges in another country. They need their own Statue of Liberty: "send us your thieves, your murderers, your rapists, the REALLY retched refuse from your teeming shores."

That's exactly what France did with Hans Peterson, the confessed murderer of Dr. Cornbleet. Gave him citizenship after he fled to St. Martin.

[gdnp]

Originally Posted by WildCat

That's exactly what France did with Hans Peterson, the confessed murderer of Dr. Cornbleet. Gave him citizenship after he fled to St. Martin.

On the down side the guilty party escapes the full weight of US justice. On the plus side we are spared the expense of a trial and incarceration. I'm tempted to say "let em' go". Maybe try them in absentia just to avoid them returning years later after the witnesses have died.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Originally Posted by parky76

well, it appears from those articles, that Israel allows for extradition, as long as Israeli nationals can serve their sentence in Israel. this does not cover Jews who are not Israeli citizens or nationals.

but again, it is racist to deny a Jew bail just because he MIGHT flee to Israel, if he finds the money and a ticket.

Can an American who is not Jewish get on a plane and fly somewhere and become a citizen of another country?

[davefoc]

Interesting case.

My first reaction was that a ruling that denied bail because a Jewish individual could theoretically escape to Israel and at avoid an American trial would be immediately struck down if it would even be issued in the first place.

After thinking about it a bit I'm not sure. Certainly a general ruling based only on the fact of a person's religious or ethnic connections would not stand. But part of the reason for bail hearings is to asses flight risk for a defendant. If an individual has a connection to a foreign country where he might seek refuge I would expect the court to take that into consideration before bail is granted. Without specific knowledge, I suspect that mafia members with ties to Italy are treated differently than mafia members who have no foreign ties at all when it comes to bail. Clearly a close connection to Israel for a Jewish individual who is under indictment for a serious crime is a factor that reasonably enough should be taken into account at a bail hearing I think. It would be nice if Israel didn't hold onto a bizarre, sanctuary idea with respect to extraditing people back to its major benefactor. But the fact is that it does and courts should reasonably take that into account when assessing the flight risk of the defendant.

One way around this would be to require a defendant to renounce any right of return while he is in custody and to require Israel to respect the renouncement. If both parties would not agree to those terms bail should either be denied or raised substantially.

[hgc]

Isn't this straight out of a Law & Order episode? In that case, the accused plead guilty in exchange for being able to serve his sentence (25 to life?) in an Israeli prison.

[davefoc]

Originally Posted by hgc

Isn't this straight out of a Law & Order episode? In that case, the accused plead guilty in exchange for being able to serve his sentence (25 to life?) in an Israeli prison.

I thought of that also. I suspect the Law and Order episode was inspired by the actual case, but maybe it was the other way around.

[gtc]

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Can an American who is not Jewish get on a plane and fly somewhere and become a citizen of another country?

Maybe.

[gtc]

Can't they confiscate his American passport to stop him being able to get to Israel?

[drkitten]

Originally Posted by gtc

Can't they confiscate his American passport to stop him being able to get to Israel?

Couldn't he still show up at the Israeli embassy and plead asylum?

[Alferd_Packer]

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Can an American who is not Jewish get on a plane and fly somewhere and become a citizen of another country?

Originally Posted by gtc

Maybe.

It depends on your ethnic heritage.

[Alferd_Packer]

Originally Posted by parky76

http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArt.../New_York.html

this is a fascinating ruling by the judge. he argues that because any Jew can go to Israel and become a citizen, any and all Jews are a bail flight risk.

You neglected to include the following from that story:

Quote:

Under Israel’s Law of Return, any Jew and members of his family who have expressed their desire to settle in Israel will be granted citizenship,” the judge wrote, adding that the government had claimed that at least one other Agriprocessors’ defendant had already fled to Israel.

[Alferd_Packer]

While, I don't have any specific examples, I imagine that this argument has been made successfully before in mafia trials.

[drkitten]

Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer

It depends on your ethnic heritage.

I believe there are also countries (the Turks and Caicos is one IIRC) that will grant citizenship at the airport if you write a large enough check.

[a_unique_person]

Flight risks are not just a Jewish phenomenon.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/fa...1214-6yae.html

[drkitten]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Flight risks are not just a Jewish phenomenon.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/fa...1214-6yae.html

I think it's reasonable to consider dual nationality as one factor in flight risks. I think it's unreasonable to consider it a controlling factor, but my understanding is that there was a lot of other evidence suggesting that the (alleged?) perp might flee.

[Thunder]

the guy is ONLY a citizen of the United States.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Can an American who is not Jewish get on a plane and fly somewhere and become a citizen of another country?

Um, my dear friend Timothy. The process of making aliyah is not simply getting off at Tel Aviv airport and declaring "I am a Jew....make me an Israeli!!"

the Israeli govt. investigates your lineage first. do you know how many Jews there are with regular German and Russian names? Hundreds of thousands..and all of those Germans and Russians with the same names can't just go to Israel and say their name is "Berg" or "Linsky"..so let them in.

Only a extremaly naive individual would think that someone who claims to be a Jew can just show up, declare it, and be welcome in.

I find your naivety.....very suspect.

[gdnp]

Originally Posted by parky76

Um, my dear friend Timothy. The process of making aliyah is not simply getting off at Tel Aviv airport and declaring "I am a Jew....make me an Israeli!!"

the Israeli govt. investigates your lineage first. do you know how many Jews there are with regular German and Russian names? Hundreds of thousands..and all of those Germans and Russians with the same names can't just go to Israel and say their name is "Berg" or "Linsky"..so let them in.

Only a extremaly naive individual would think that someone who claims to be a Jew can just show up, declare it, and be welcome in.

I find your naivety.....very suspect.

I don't think the question is whether someone who claims to be a Jew can do this, I think the question is whether someone who is a Jew can do this vs. whether there is any country a non-Jew could go and do the same thing.

In other words, what are the grounds under which a Jew could be refused Israeli citizenship? A pending murder warrant does not appear to be one of them.

[The Fool]

Originally Posted by parky76

I find your naivety.....very suspect.

I find your suspicion very suspect.


but anyway.......

If the US court system is anything like Australias then they take flight risk into consideration on a case by case basis. Because a Judge decides there is an unacceptable risk that person A is a high risk of disappearing to Israel then it doesnt in any way set a precedent for anyone else. Each case has to be judged on its merits.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Originally Posted by parky76

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Can an American who is not Jewish get on a plane and fly somewhere and become a citizen of another country?

Um, my dear friend Timothy. The process of making aliyah is not simply getting off at Tel Aviv airport and declaring "I am a Jew....make me an Israeli!!"

the Israeli govt. investigates your lineage first. do you know how many Jews there are with regular German and Russian names? Hundreds of thousands..and all of those Germans and Russians with the same names can't just go to Israel and say their name is "Berg" or "Linsky"..so let them in.

Only a extremaly naive individual would think that someone who claims to be a Jew can just show up, declare it, and be welcome in.

I find your naivety.....very suspect.

Oh come on, I'm not that stupid to think anyone can show up in Israel and say "Hi I'm Jewish!"

As you're picking on the brevity of my question to try and appoint naivety, I'll rephrase it ....


"Can an American who is not Jewish get on a plane and fly somewhere and, after some regulatory checks on the person's lineage, become a citizen of another country?"

You know damn well what I meant in the first place.


You called this bail ruling racist. I'm saying that I'm sure that if a similar opportunity was available for those of other ethnicities then the same would apply and so it's not racist.

Did the judge make this ruling because he dislikes Jews?

[davefoc]

Originally Posted by drkitten

Couldn't he still show up at the Israeli embassy and plead asylum?

As a person that derives entertainment from the news I particularly like this idea.

[ddt]

As to the flight risk, this paragraph is also interesting:

Quote:

In their request to deny bail after his second arrest in November — he had been arrested in October on charges alleging that he hired illegal workers for his plant — prosecutors noted that Rubashkin had $20,000 in his home, much of it in a travel bag that also contained his birth certificate and his children’s passports; he has 10 children. He and his wife surrendered their passports after Rubashkin’s first arrest.

So it seems the defendant was ready to flee the country.

FWIW, I see nothing anti-semitic in the Judge's ruling. It just so happens that a Jew has a relatively simple way to obtain foreign citizenship. But from everything written in the article, I get the impression the Judge would have done the same with any other person with the same opportunities.

[davefoc]

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Oh come on, I'm not that stupid to think anyone can show up in Israel and say "Hi I'm Jewish!"

As you're picking on the brevity of my question to try and appoint naivety, I'll rephrase it ....


"Can an American who is not Jewish get on a plane and fly somewhere and, after some regulatory checks on the person's lineage, become a citizen of another country?"

You know damn well what I meant in the first place.


You called this bail ruling racist. I'm saying that I'm sure that if a similar opportunity was available for those of other ethnicities then the same would apply and so it's not racist.

Did the judge make this ruling because he dislikes Jews?

I think there are somewhat similar problems with extraditing people from Mexico. For practical purposes this is much more an issue than Jewish asylum seekers in Israel. I think there are quite a few people wanted for murder in the US that Mexico won't turn over to the US. Part of the deal is opposition to the death penalty but I think they have some rules against turning Mexican nationals over to the US also. So if a Mexican citizen commits a murder in the US and makes it back to Mexico I don't think the Mexican authorities will extradite him. In addition, I think just being of Mexican ancestry can be useful to the criminal. A Max Factor heir was floating around in Mexico after having killed his girl friend (I think, the details are fuzzy to me) in the US and I don't think the Mexican authorities worked real hard at catching him and returning him.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Did the judge make this ruling because he dislikes Jews?

what reason did he have to believe that this Jew might flee to Israel?

has the guy ever expressed interest in moving there?

is there ANY evidence that he would attempt to flee to Israel?

many many Jewish-Americans have been accused of crimes in the USA, posted bail, and DID NOT flee.

unless the judge had some sort of evidence that this particular guy had some intentions of fleeing to Israel as soon as he posted bail, then it appears that the ONLY reason the judge denied bail..is because the guy is a jew.

that..is anti-Semitic. it is against the law to deny someone bail simply on the basis of their race, ethnicity, religion, gender, etc.

is the judge an anti-Semite? I don't know. it is indeed possible.

are you going to disregard the possibility of him being an anti-Semite...100%??

based on all of your previous posts...I would guess the answer is "yes".

Tim- why is it that almost all of your posts...are on Jewish related topics...and all of those posts in Jewish topics...is against the Jewish side?

Hmmm???

[gdnp]

Originally Posted by parky76

what reason did he have to believe that this Jew might flee to Israel?

has the guy ever expressed interest in moving there?

is there ANY evidence that he would attempt to flee to Israel?

many many Jewish-Americans have been accused of crimes in the USA, posted bail, and DID NOT flee.

unless the judge had some sort of evidence that this particular guy had some intentions of fleeing to Israel as soon as he posted bail, then it appears that the ONLY reason the judge denied bail..is because the guy is a jew.

Did you miss this quote:

Quote:

In their request to deny bail after his second arrest in November — he had been arrested in October on charges alleging that he hired illegal workers for his plant — prosecutors noted that Rubashkin had $20,000 in his home, much of it in a travel bag that also contained his birth certificate and his children’s passports; he has 10 children. He and his wife surrendered their passports after Rubashkin’s first arrest.

Let's think here: He's surrendered his passport, yet has a travel bag with $20,000, his children's passports, and his birth certificate. Why would he need his children's passports if he were not considering sending them out of the country? Why would he need his birth certificate if he were not planning on joining them?

I am sure that you could come up with alternative explanations, but to me this is "some sort of evidence" that this particular guy was a flight risk. Regardless of his Jewish religion.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by parky76

wha
t reason did he have to believe that this Jew might flee to Israel?

has the guy ever expressed interest in moving there?

is there ANY evidence that he would attempt to flee to Israel?

You're still ignoring this part of the article:

Quote:

Under Israel’s Law of Return, any Jew and members of his family who have expressed their desire to settle in Israel will be granted citizenship,” the judge wrote, adding that the government had claimed that at least one other Agriprocessors’ defendant had already fled to Israel.

One other defendant already "fled to Israel." Given that Agriprocessors is a family business, it's not unreasonable to suppose that if one person gets the idea to head to Israel, others will soon follow.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Cleon

You're still ignoring this part of the article:



One other defendant already "fled to Israel." Given that Agriprocessors is a family business, it's not unreasonable to suppose that if one person gets the idea to head to Israel, others will soon follow.

@ Cleon and The Fool: thank you for cutting through the BS in this thread.

@ Parky: no, the judge did not screw up, he used his judgment, which is what he is supposed to do. Your appeal to special victim status is pathetic.

DR

[Travis]

Wait, am I supposed to be looking at this issue through the Israel is evil or the Jews are oppressed bias glasses? Knowing that ahead of time allows me to know which conclusion I should jump to.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Cleon

You're still ignoring this part of the article:
One other defendant already "fled to Israel." Given that Agriprocessors is a family business, it's not unreasonable to suppose that if one person gets the idea to head to Israel, others will soon follow.

Ok. but this ignored that fact that thousands upon thousands of Jews in the USA have been arrested for crimes since Israel's founding in 1948, and rarely do they ever seek to flee to Israel.

Jewish-Americans accused of crimes, fleeing to Israel to seek the safety of the Right of Return....is not the rule. It is the exception. We all need to remember that.

and more importantly, ANY American can immediately buy a ticket to any European Union country and simply over stay their 90 day tourist visa, and very easily disappear. To assume that a Jew is more likely to flee to a foreign state then a non-Jew is anti-Semitic.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by parky76

Ok. but this ignored that fact that thousands upon thousands of Jews in the USA have been arrested for crimes since Israel's founding in 1948, and rarely do they ever seek to flee to Israel.

However, in this particular case, there was good reason to suspect that this particular Jew had a higher probability of fleeing there than the average Yid-on-the-street. It's likely, in fact, that they nabbed him just in time--as he was found with $40,000 in cash, his family's passports, and his birth certificate.

If I were arrested for something (god forbid), it's very unlikely, to say the least, that I would be deemed a flight risk based merely on my being Jewish. However, had my business partner/cousin headed straight once the cops started arresting people, and were I found with a lot of cash and family passports, the odds of my being deemed a flight risk might shoot up a few notches. Whether it was Israel or Canada.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Originally Posted by ddt

As to the flight risk, this paragraph is also interesting:


So it seems the defendant was ready to flee the country.

FWIW, I see nothing anti-semitic in the Judge's ruling. It just so happens that a Jew has a relatively simple way to obtain foreign citizenship. But from everything written in the article, I get the impression the Judge would have done the same with any other person with the same opportunities.

Exactly. Parky throws his toys out of the pram crying 'Jews are picked on!, Jews are picked on!, Jews are picked on!' at the slightest excuse. It's obsessional.

Those of us like myself who have a particular interest in discussing the Israeli crimes against the Palestinians are an easy target for obsessives like parky. To him we can't be anything other than rabid anti-semites.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Cleon

However, had my business partner/cousin headed straight once the cops started arresting people, and were I found with a lot of cash and family passports, the odds of my being deemed a flight risk might shoot up a few notches.

Hmmmmm.........that does change things a bit. But the fact is he could have fleed to any country that does not require a Visa from American visitors, not just Israel.

Was he about to flee to the Jewish state? It is indeed possible. I think internet records of searching for plane tickets, or contacts with a travel agent, or contacts with an Israeli consulate would have solidified these suspicions.

[Drudgewire]

Quote:

One of Rubashkin’s lawyers, Baruch Weiss of New York, acknowledged the cash was in the house but said that much of it was in one-dollar bills that had been collected for charity. And he said the rest was used to pay expense. He noted that a $1,700 car bill had recently been paid in cash.

Was he planning to donate his birth certificate and the kids' passports to charity too?

[Thunder]

ok..you got me. i failed to completely read the whole article. it does appear the guy was about to jet..somewhere.

i was wrong. you'all happy?

[ddt]

Originally Posted by parky76

Hmmmmm.........that does change things a bit. But the fact is he could have fleed to any country that does not require a Visa from American visitors, not just Israel.

Good to see you finally notice it. Both facts - the business partner who fled, and the bag with the wad of cash & passports - have been mentioned at least 3 times before in this thread.

Yes, he could flee to any other country which doesn't require a visa. But, say, Holland would be glad to turn over an American citizen back to American justice. Israel, however, would be much more reluctant to turn over an Israeli citizen to American justice. Not because it's Israel, but because they'd turn over one of their own. That's how states in general work. Many countries have exceptions for own citizens in their extradition treaties.

Originally Posted by parky76

Was he about to flee to the Jewish state? It is indeed possible. I think internet records of searching for plane tickets, or contacts with a travel agent, or contacts with an Israeli consulate would have solidified these suspicions.

You really think he'd be so stupid to search the internet for plane tickets? Someone who takes the precaution of having a wad of cash in small denominations? He'd just drive up to the airport and buy his tickets there.

ETA: crossposted with parky's #50.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by parky76

Hmmmmm.........that does change things a bit. But the fact is he could have fleed to any country that does not require a Visa from American visitors, not just Israel.

Sure. He could be flying to Afghanistan. More likely, considering the situation, it was Israel he was heading to.

Either way, the guy embodied the concept of "flight risk."