Sabre tooth.

Hi, I have a friend who believes that sabertooth tigers (Smilodon) used their enlarged teeth to dig up and eat roots or other foods underground.

After doing a bit of rescearch on google, I can find few references to this theory, those I did find dismissed it as a crackpot idea.

My friend is very intelligent and often cites evidence he believes confirms his theory. I don't know much about such things so I don't have enough information to challenge his theory.

So can any of you guys tell me where to find definitive evidence to challange this theory?

For example, is feline physiology unlikely to adapt to a non carnivorous diet.

Or is it possible to sustain an animal as large as Smilodon on a diet of roots?

Or is there fossil evidence of Smilodon tooth marks on mammoth bones?

Thanks.

[Andonyx]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Wolf
Hi, I have a friend who believes that sabertooth tigers (Smilodon) used their enlarged teeth to dig up and eat roots or other foods underground.

After doing a bit of rescearch on google, I can find few references to this theory, those I did find dismissed it as a crackpot idea.

My friend is very intelligent and often cites evidence he believes confirms his theory. I don't know much about such things so I don't have enough information to challenge his theory.

So can any of you guys tell me where to find definitive evidence to challange this theory?

For example, is feline physiology unlikely to adapt to a non carnivorous diet.

Or is it possible to sustain an animal as large as Smilodon on a diet of roots?

Or is there fossil evidence of Smilodon tooth marks on mammoth bones?

Thanks.

Is there a single member of the feline family today, large or small that is naturally an herbivore?

I believe the answer is no.

It would strike me as very odd to evolve from herbivore to carnivore, or even omnivore.

Not to say it's impossible.

Quote:

Smilodon was a carnivore, a meat-eater. This ferocious hunter may have eaten thick-skinned prey like mastodons (hairy, extinct elephants), horses, and bison. It probably ambushed its prey since its short legs limited its running speed. Its hunting strategy may have been to mortally wound its prey with its saber-like teeth, probably in the belly, and let the victim bleed to death. Smilodon, like most meat-eaters, may also have been a scavenger.

http://www.pleasanthill.k12.or.us/Sc...aro/catman.htm

Quote:

It seems likely that cats like Smilodon and Eusmilus dragged down and held their prey with their front claws, positioning them for precise strikes into soft tissue, vein, and artery ( neck and throat ).In Smilodon, the head could be brought well back on the neck and the lower jaw dropped down against the chest clearing the points of the canines._

http://www.dinodata.net/Dd/Namelist/Tabs/S088.htm

Quote:

Apparently, the now extinct dire wolves, American lions, and sabertooth cats, were forced to consume their kills more fully, chewing the bones, and thereby injuring their teeth. Carnivores eat more bone when prey are difficult to acquire and thus the high tooth fracture frequencies suggest competition for food was more intense ten to thirty thousand years ago.

Studies underway include an exploration of the growth and development of bite strength in members of a captive population of spotted hyenas, analysis of feeding behavior in large African carnivores, and further studies of tooth fracture frequencies in additional mammalian species.

http://research.mednet.ucla.edu/cfm/...acultyKey=1135

The majority of scientific thought on the subject seems to agree with you.

I was mistaken, apparently there is a small bear that is naturally an herbivore and his ancient ancestor is a feline. My mistake.

[scotth]

Well, this site will probably be a good start for you.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/sub...mals/smilodon/

Of particular interest in this article is this quote, "a fossil wolf was found with a Smilodon tooth fragment embedded in its skull."

Also, all known felines are meat eaters as far as I know.

Thanks for the links guys, I have read through a few of them.

Unfortunately so far they dont have any hard evidence. A lot of them tell me that the Sabertooth was a ferocious predator, but dont tell me how they know that.

For example, "Its front legs were especially powerful. Its body was adapted for springing onto prey".

However perhaps its front legs were adapted to tear roots from the ground, which requires a lot of strength.

Also "a fossil wolf was found with a Smilodon tooth fragment embedded in its skull"

Firstly I dont think the Similodon, would have been hunting wolves, it is just as likely that if it were a herbivore, the wolves would have been hunting it, and the Smilodon defended itself with its teeth.

I will continue to search through the links.

Thanks again guys.

For anyone who is interested, I found this.

"Did the scimitar cat den? A partly disarticulated skeleton of a juvenile, found with two complete adult skeletons, from Gassaway Fissure, Tennessee, estimated to have been 2 to 4 months old at death, probably represents a cub born in a denning cave. At Friesenhahn Cave in Texas, remains of 13 cubs and 20 adults were collected. The young may have never left the cave for long, while the three very old scimitar cats probably died in seclusion in their den. The age structure of the animals preserved and the large number of specimens likewise provides evidence of denning over a long period of time.

Of great interest, because it sheds light on Homotherium prey, is that remains of between 300 and 400 juvenile mammoths were found in the cave. The majority were 2-year olds (a time when modern elephant calves begin to play and separate from the maternal herd): probably such calves became easy prey for scimitar cats. Indeed, the worldwide association of various species of Homotherium with proboscideans (elephants and mastodons) and rhino remains, mainly those of juveniles, reinforces the idea that Homotherium preyed selectively on these tough-skinned animals. "

http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibi.../smilodon.html


Though this refers to a scimitar cat, which was very similar to the smilodon.

[HENRY MOLISE]

does anyone remember the fella who built a metal sabretooth skull, attached it to a backhoe digger and tried various bites on a dead cow? I think it was on TLC? ( hehehehehe that was cool heheheheheh............................)

[espritch]

Yes. I remember that. Now that's what I call science. The show was actually pretty interesting. They were trying to determine how a saber tooth cat would use it's saber teeth. The assumption is that they used them to slice open the jugular so the prey would bleed out and die quickly. A problem for such a long toothed cat would be attacking it's prey without breaking a tooth (it would want to avoid biting into bone).

In any event, the saber tooth must be a fairly useful adaptation since it has evolved independently at least three times (I think all three were felines but I'm not sure).

As far as theories about it using them to find roots, I would say you would have to examine the rest of the teeth. Teeth used for cutting meat differ from those used for chewing plant material. There was at least one crocodilian that scientist believe was a plant eather based on it's teeth. A theory that posited a vegan diet for the saber tooth would have to show that it's other teeth were suited for a vegitarian life style. So you might want to find out what the other teeth on the saber tooth are like and how they compare with those of other carnivorous cats.

The most reliable way to determine whether an animal ate plant matter as a primary source of nutrition is to look at the teeth. Cats do not have pure molars, and therefore would have great difficulty in eating and digesting plant matter.

I watched a good documentary series in the UK a few years ago that discussed this point in great detail. It used computer models of various skulls, focusing particularly on dentition and the way that the jaw would move. Feline dental structure was likened to a pair of scissors, and the model illustrated this by showing how a peice of meat could be neatly cut from a fresh kill. Plant matter usually requires substantial grinding, and scissor-like teeth cannot effectively do this.

Here's a link with a brief description of dentition (the carnivore is a canine, but there are clear similarities with the teeh visible in Andonyx's first link).

http://www.psionica.co.uk/biology/KS4Biology/dent.htm

Mr. Turquoise

[LW]

I recall that Björn Kurten wrote in one of his books (probably in How to deep freeze a mammoth but it might also be The innocent assasins) about a find where the bones of a large sabre-toothed cat (I think it was a smilodon but its been rather long time since I read it so I'm not sure) a mammoth were found together. The cat had been crushed under the mammoth. Apparently it had succeeded in cutting the jugular of its prey but had failed to get out when it started to fall.

Kurten also mentions that the smallest sabre-toothed cat was a little larger than a modern housecat. Its scimitar teeth were ~5 cm long, IIRC.

Quote:

Originally posted by espritchA problem for such a long toothed cat would be attacking it's prey without breaking a tooth (it would want to avoid biting into bone).

Many found skulls of older sabre-toothed cats have one or both scimitar teeth missing.

Thanks for the replys,

I think the evidence is mounting against my friends root-eater idea.

I think from the evidence it is fairly obvious that smilodon teeth and skulls were adapted to eat meat. Though I do find it interesting that, as suggested by Adonyx, a herbivorous bear evolved from a carnivorous feline.

Most of the sites I have visited talk as if it has been proven beyond doubt that smilodon was a carnivore, and it probably has been, but they dont give me specific evidence, which I would like, just so I can build a more solid argument.

Personally I am convinced, but my friend may not be.

Can anyone suggest any animals, modern or ancient that feed exclusively on roots?

[scotth]

Wolf, this may be helpful:

http://www.mds.qmw.ac.uk/biomed/kb/s.../Lecture_4.htm

This is a slide show for a lecture examining the teeth, jaw configuration, and jaw muscles of mammals.

While the verbal part of the lecture isn't there. If you keep going throw the slides and their captions, a pretty clear pattern will emerge in your mind of features that will let you have a pretty good idea of the animals diet by looking at its skull.

Slide 17 is pretty noteworthy. (Well, it was new info for me)

And from slide 24, the properties of a carnivore

Carnivores:
• medium body size
• large canines
• sharp, shearing dentition
• large temporalis
• cylindrical condyle
• TMJ level with tooth row

The site isn't very fast, be sure to wait for all the images to load before moving on.

Cats do eat plants on occasion, maybe it supplemented it's diet with plants or roots in order to aid digestion?


Was it a herbivore I am afraid if you base it on the big cats today as with most dinosaur seem to, then the answer is no.

Teeth marks on bones mean nothing really, the cat could have been defending itself theres always that could be factor lurking.

[Mark]

I can't speak to the truth of it, but a recent theory about saber tooth cats is that they were scavengers. Interesting idea, but I have no idea, myself. I'm just glad they don't run around today.

[KillerX]

Another thing about most carnivores is that their jaws just go up and down, whereas a herbivore's jaws can also go side to side, enabling it to grind up grains and fiberous plant matter. I would think that the long teeth would get in the way of side to side jaw movement.

Cool slideshow scotth, it does seem to suggest that smilodon could only have been a carnivore.

Pie, now that you mention it, I recall that one of my friends cats is always eating her plants. Though I dont think it would be too happy if it got a plate of lettuce for dinner

KillerX, I think your point is the crux of the argument. If their jaws dont move sidewise they can't eat plants. However I am interested to see a bear skull, as they are omnivores, but as mentioned before some of them could have evolved from cats. Also the body structure of smilodon was similar to that of bears.

Mark, I have heard that they might have been scavengers as well as predators. Though I wish they were still around, as they were really cool animals, and it would make this discussion a bit simpler.

Well i'm off to look for bear skulls.

I want an airtight case before I present it to my friend, as he has been going on about this for a while, and undoubtedly has evidence of his own.

It is a subject he feels strongly about, since he failed high school science for suggesting that birds may have evolved from dinosaurs.

[Soapy Sam]

He failed science for suggesting birds evolved from dinosaurs? Where was this school?

As for ole smiley- he would seem to have been seriously overequipped for sneaking up on vegetables and nature is rarely so profligate with resources. Would your interestingly radical friend be willing to put his hypothesis to the test by offering a live specimen of said pussy cat a carrot? A bold fellow indeed!

There is evidence of animals (ie elephants) using large tusks to dig for minerals - especially salt. The Mt.Elgon caves on the Uganda / Kenya border have been largely excavated in that way, but I don't think anyone believes that is the raison détre of tusks in elephants.

I think this is a classic case where Occam's razor takes precedence in absence of evidence- we have a large cat, with big, long, pointy teeth. In general today, cats and pointy toothed beasts are predators. It seems reasonable to place sabre toothed cats in the same business division until contrary evidence is demonstrated.

[Soubrette]

Not sure how relevent this is but modern domestic felines are not recommended a purely vegetarian diet as they need certain vitamins and minerals gained from meat.

I think if you were really keen to have a vegetarian cat then you would have to give them supplements of some kind

Sou

[Skeptical Greg]

Quote:

Originally posted by espritch ... snip
In any event, the saber tooth must be a fairly useful adaptation since it has evolved independently at least three times (I think all three were felines but I'm not sure).

Apparently, not useful enough to have persisted..

[Skeptical Greg]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soubrette
Not sure how relevent this is but modern domestic felines are not recommended a purely vegetarian diet as they need certain vitamins and minerals gained from meat.

I think if you were really keen to have a vegetarian cat then you would have to give them supplements of some kind

Sou

Seems I saw something recently on ' Animal Planet ' where the ' Pet Police ' were investigating a case of animal cruelty,
where the owners had been providing their cats a ' vegetarian ' diet..

The cats they showed, looked emaciated, with their fur and teeth falling out..

[KillerX]

Another thing I forgot to say before is that if, as the experts say, the teeth would shatter upon impact with bone, of what possible use could they be for digging? Untilled soil can be very hard and we musn't forget that the ground is full of rocks, which are never recommended for healthy teeth.

[arcticpenguin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes

Apparently, not useful enough to have persisted..

Probably got themselves into a specialized niche. In the long-term, generalists rule.

Thanks guys,

I think I have more than enough evidence to persuade my friend that his theory is wrong. He is a reasonable guy so he will probably aggree with me after he sees the evidence.

[Phaycops]

I took a quick look through my university's databases, and found plenty on smilodon's diet, strategies, etc., but nothing on the fact that it might have been herbivorous. It seems to go without saying, at least in the abstracts I read, that smilodon was carnivorous. I'd say that not only is your friend unsupported by the evidence, but also that s/he is unsupported by the majority of experts in the field.

Nitrogen isotopes would be able to say for sure, but if I recall isotope geology correctly, it is difficult to get enough material from fossil bones.

[neutrino_cannon]

Recall that sabretooths, like pachyderms are not a single group. Excessivly long canines evolved many times in cats, and for many different reasons. Ever heard of thylacosmilus? This animal was a marsupial that apeared for all the world to be a sabrecat. Just goes to show that at many points throughout the tertiary the disign must have been good.

Probably not for digging up tubers though.

I did some reading on the thylacosmilus, I find it fascinating that this animal is to all appearances a saber tooth cat. Apparently we know of this animal from only two skeletons found, it makes me wonder how many sabretooth animals existed that we dont know about.

Phaycops, you say that you have seen evidence regarding the smilodon's diet, could you please tell me how such things are determined. Is it, for example, assumed that it fed on large mammals of the same time and place, or is it determined from analysis of its remains?

Also, what could have been the mechanism for their collective extinction? I read that some think that the thylacosmilus may have been wiped out by a recent meteor impact, but this is probably not the case for the rest of the saber toothed animals.

Is it possible that these animals were wiped out by early humans?
Given our desire for tusks and such.

Thanks.

[Always Free]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Wolf


Also, what could have been the mechanism for their collective extinction? I read that some think that the thylacosmilus may have been wiped out by a recent meteor impact, but this is probably not the case for the rest of the saber toothed animals.

Is it possible that these animals were wiped out by early humans?
Given our desire for tusks and such.

Thanks.

I saw a docu on the Sabre Tooth, oh about a year ago, can't remember what it was called--anyhow one theory on how this animal may have become extinct was this:

Due to the shape of the animal, being heavier, stockier, slower than modern big cats, tiger eg, the Sabre Tooth had to hunt it's prey from close by, say behind bushes etc. They think it only had a short burst of speed to catch it's prey therefore relied on cover to allow it to approach it's prey very closely and spring out and catch it.
Well, due to changing weather, vegetation, over the years, they think it's hunting range became less dense in vegetation therefore greatly decreasing the animals opportunity for surprise attacks. Seeing as how it couldn't chase it's prey for any great distance, it lost most of it's advantage and therefore found food hard to come by as most prey could out run it.
It probably scavenged as well but so did the other carnivors of the time. So the fastest survived and the slowest died out.

[Mark]

In a small museum in the local mountains, they say the saber tooth lived here at the same time as early Indians. They speculate that it was hunted to extinction...in this area, at least.

[Phaycops]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Wolf
I did some reading on the thylacosmilus, I find it fascinating that this animal is to all appearances a saber tooth cat. Apparently we know of this animal from only two skeletons found, it makes me wonder how many sabretooth animals existed that we dont know about.

Phaycops, you say that you have seen evidence regarding the smilodon's diet, could you please tell me how such things are determined. Is it, for example, assumed that it fed on large mammals of the same time and place, or is it determined from analysis of its remains?

Also, what could have been the mechanism for their collective extinction? I read that some think that the thylacosmilus may have been wiped out by a recent meteor impact, but this is probably not the case for the rest of the saber toothed animals.

Is it possible that these animals were wiped out by early humans?
Given our desire for tusks and such.

Thanks.

Well, I only read two abstracts (not every article in the database has the full abstract, plus one was in Portugese ), it sounds to me like the researchers use the fossil remains of the cats to determine their diet. One study I believe used wear on the teeth as compared to modern great cats, and another, very old paper, was hypothesizing that the smilodon was less a hunter than a scavenger.

Here's the cites:

Anyonge, William. (Nov. 1996) Microwear on canines and killing behavior in large carnivores: saber function in Smilodon fatalis. Journal of Mammalogy, v. 77, p. 1059-1067.

Bohlin, Birger. (1941) Food habit of the machaerodonts, with special regard to Smilodon. Bulletin of the Geological Institutions of the University of Uppsala, New Series, v. 28, p. 156-184.

Thanks guys,

I cant wait to tell my friend. I think I have more than enough evidence to convince him, though I also kind of hope that he gives me a reason to keep researching this fascinating subject.

Thanks for the info and references.

Well apparently my friend is not as reasonable as I prevoiusly hoped. Dispite the evidence I have showed him, he continues to maintain that his theory has merit.

However he claims that I misunderstood his theory. He maintains that smilodon may have eaten meat but that a signifigant part of its diet came from roots, tubers and fungus.

These were so crucial to its diet that smilodon became extinct because the plants that it ate dissapeared. More accepted theories state that smilodon used these same plants for cover to ambush from, and that loss of cover lead to extinction.

He claims that smilodon was omnivorous, like a bear, and states that if we found bear skeletons, but had never seen a bear, that we would also assume that it was solely a carnivore.

But he does not give any evidence to prove this theory.

Does anyone think this could be possible?

Or does anyone have any good evidence that makes it impossible?

So I am off to search for information on bear skulls and dentation, again.

Any help is extremely appreciated as this is doing my head in!

[Qahira]

Quote:

Can anyone suggest any animals, modern or ancient that feed exclusively on roots?

The only one i can think of is the Naked Mole Rat. It also digs with its teeth, but other than that is fairly unrelated to the sabre tooth. (Interestingly the naked mole rat is the only mammal with a hive-type social structure)

[creekkid]

does any one know where i can find pictures of smilodon tracks ?i found track in limestone trying to id .could be jaguar ?

[JoeTheJuggler]

Originally Posted by Mr Wolf

I did some reading on the thylacosmilus, I find it fascinating that this animal is to all appearances a saber tooth cat. Apparently we know of this animal from only two skeletons found, it makes me wonder how many sabretooth animals existed that we dont know about.

The saber tooth characteristics evolved independently many times in dozens of genera in several different mammal families (including a couple of marsupial families). From what I read, most of these critters were predators--and I think all were certainly from carnivorous lines.

Apparently, the basic form was a really good adaptation.

[casebro]

Clams. Smilodon ate clams. Like the Walrus, Smiley used his teeth to root out clams- subterranean 'clams'- probably ground hogs. See, cats lack heavy digging claws on their feet, so big teeth would suffice as picks. And teeth that big, hooked directly to a big, strong body, would move boulders.