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Thunder · 27th December 2008, 10:21 PM

What will be accomplished from the Israeli strikes on Gaza?

Tin Foil Timothy · 27th December 2008, 11:07 PM

More innocent civilians killed and more idiots shouting Anti-Semite!

A big step backward on all fronts!

Well done Israel!

Miss_Kitt · 27th December 2008, 11:16 PM

Parky -- I think you left out a couple of options in the poll, like:

Hamas doesn't have control of the people launching the rockets; or

Another Arab state / organization will launch attacks on or within Israel; or

On Planet X, We sent our equivalent of the Israelis and the Palenstinians to an airless moon en masse, and turned the land into a Museum of Stupidity.

Regards, MK

FireGarden · 28th December 2008, 04:10 AM

A very short-sighted poll

I regard the current violence as another nail in the coffin of the two-state solution. It will soon be too late to resurrect that idea.

The region is on the path to a one-state solution.

Pardalis · 28th December 2008, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

More innocent civilians killed and more idiots shouting Anti-Semite!

A big step backward on all fronts!

Well done Israel!

What about Hamas breaking the cease-fire to begin with?

Oh right, we have to be tolerant towards them, breaking cease-fire is part of their "nature". It's a cultural thing. Racist me...

ddt · 28th December 2008, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

What will be accomplished from the Israeli strikes on Gaza?

In terms of breaking Hamas' strength? Not much. The first day, yesterday, had some 250 Gazans killed. Let's be generous and say they're all Hamas militants.

Now look at this analysis in Haaretz:

Quote:

Approximately 15,000 armed Palestinians. That's the size of the military force the Israel Defense Forces will face if a major operation in the Gaza Strip goes forward. These militants, from various Hamas factions, will presumably be aided by a few thousand militants from other Palestinian groups.

Do the math. That's 60 days, or 2 month, with the same amount of success. Provided, of course, that all those casualties are indeed militants. They're not, it'll be more like the roughly 50% success rate Israel had in previous actions, so multiply by 2.

Moreover, Israel hasn't hit the core of Hamas' military strength, the al-Qassam brigades, but the police-like forces. Let's hear Amira Hass:

Quote:

Training camps of the Izz-al Din al-Qassam and interrogation and detention centers were deserted when they were bombed. But police centers in the Strip, which give services to people, were teeming. No one believed that they would be bombed.

So, no, it won't significantly weaken Hamas, I think. In the end, it's another round of senseless bloodletting that makes peace a rather more distant than a closer prospect.

Thunder · 28th December 2008, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

What about Hamas breaking the cease-fire to begin with?

Oh right, we have to be tolerant towards them, breaking cease-fire is part of their "nature". It's a cultural thing. Racist me...

Israel was supposed to allow all neccessary food, water, and supplies into Gaza. They failed to do this. So in their own way, they also broke the cease-fire.

Denying food, water, and supplies is a passive act of violence.

Tin Foil Timothy · 29th December 2008, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

Israel was supposed to allow all neccessary food, water, and supplies into Gaza. They failed to do this. So in their own way, they also broke the cease-fire.

Denying food, water, and supplies is a passive act of violence.

Israel broke the ceasefire back in November 4th by shooting 6 Palestinians militants and rocekts were fired at Israel in response

TriskettheKid · 29th December 2008, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Israel broke the ceasefire back in November 4th by shooting 6 Palestinians militants and rocekts were fired at Israel in response

Well, if you want to play that game, Hamas broke the ceasefire a mere 5 days after it went into effect.

They fired off a few Qassams on June 24. Quite a bit of restraint from Hamas, considering they had agreed to a ceasefire that began on June 19.

Darth Rotor · 29th December 2008, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

Moreover, Israel hasn't hit the core of Hamas' military strength, the al-Qassam brigades, but the police-like forces. Let's hear Amira Hass:

This isn't a video game. Pure attrition isn't the only way for an army to disintegrate. Sometimes, morale breaks and they quit. (Not seeing it for Hamas, however.)

Quote:

So, no, it won't significantly weaken Hamas, I think. In the end, it's another round of senseless bloodletting that makes peace a rather more distant than a closer prospect.

Senseless or not, I agree with the bolded part: more grist for the Hamas recruiting mill.

DR

BenBurch · 29th December 2008, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

...
Denying food, water, and supplies is a passive act of violence.

Generally called a "siege."

dudalb · 29th December 2008, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by FireGarden

A very short-sighted poll

I regard the current violence as another nail in the coffin of the two-state solution. It will soon be too late to resurrect that idea.

The region is on the path to a one-state solution.

And what will happen to the Jews in Israel when HAMAS takes over?
IMHO advocates of a "Single State Solution" are really advocating a "Ethnic Cleansing" if Jews from Palestine, although they won't admit that or carefully delude themselves that that will not be the final result.

Tandem Thinking · 29th December 2008, 12:29 PM

I'm not sure what everyone else here was expecting when Hamas launched rockets into Israel. If Canada or Mexico launched rockets into the U.S., I'm positive we would've done more than launch air strikes.

Drewbot · 29th December 2008, 12:38 PM

Israel is going to go in on the ground soon, this time they are not going to tell us when and where.

portlandatheist · 29th December 2008, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

What about Hamas breaking the cease-fire to begin with?

Don't you read the news? When Palestinians bombard Israel with rockets, they are "threatening the cease-fire" but the cease fire is not actually broken until Israel launches rockets.

Lots of examples:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4224397.ece
"Gaza Rockets threaten ceasefire.."

Same rules hold for peace treaties and negotiations.

Tin Foil Timothy · 29th December 2008, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by TriskettheKid

Well, if you want to play that game, Hamas broke the ceasefire a mere 5 days after it went into effect.

They fired off a few Qassams on June 24. Quite a bit of restraint from Hamas, considering they had agreed to a ceasefire that began on June 19.

Well if you want to play that game then the Zionist Movement spent 50 years planning and implementing the creation of Israel on a land where other people lived and without regard for those people. Since it's creation Israel has spent 60 years persecuting those people in order to drive them off the land they once owned and had their livelihoods.

TriskettheKid · 29th December 2008, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Well if you want to play that game then the Zionist Movement spent 50 years planning and implementing the creation of Israel on a land where other people lived and without regard for those people. Since it's creation Israel has spent 60 years persecuting those people in order to drive them off the land they once owned and had their livelihoods.

That is an interesting interpretation of history.

It's also an interesting dodge to the point on hand:

The ceasefire started on June 19, Hamas broke it on June 24. I can assume, based on your dodge, that you accept this?

Darth Rotor · 29th December 2008, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Don't you read the news? When Palestinians bombard Israel with rockets, they are "threatening the cease-fire" but the cease fire is not actually broken until Israel launches rockets.

Lots of examples:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4224397.ece
"Gaza Rockets threaten ceasefire.."

Same rules hold for peace treaties and negotiations.

It seems that Hamas and Gaza are in deed at war with Israel, if I wish to play dictionary definition lotto today.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

A ceasefire (or truce) is a temporary stoppage of any armed conflict, where each side of the conflict agrees with the other to suspend aggressive actions. Ceasefires may be declared as part of a formal treaty, but they have also been called as part of an informal understanding between opposing forces.

One can argue that there had to be a war before they could agree a ceasefire. One could.

This raises an interesting point regarding how this conflict is covered. As I understand it, a ceasefire ceases when firing begins. PA, thanks again for pointing this out. Careless use of language is part of a misinformation campaign, whomever uses it.

You'd think even a journalist knows this mechanism about cease and fire. Then again, maybe a cease fire isn't broken until both sides fire? Is that the idea?

That would mean that North Korea could start shelling Seoul, and the cease fire would still be in effect until the US and South Korea fired back.

Yeah, that's it. It also means the US can shell North Korea without breaking the cease fire.

Hell, let's roll!

(Kidding)

ddt · 29th December 2008, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Don't you read the news? When Palestinians bombard Israel with rockets, they are "threatening the cease-fire" but the cease fire is not actually broken until Israel launches rockets.

Lots of examples:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4224397.ece
"Gaza Rockets threaten ceasefire.."

Same rules hold for peace treaties and negotiations.

Did you actually read the article?

Quote:

Today's rocket-attacks have been claimed by the al-Asqa Martyrs Brigades, a military splinter group of Fatah.

The ceasefire was between Hamas and Israel.

Deus Ex Machina · 29th December 2008, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by ddt

In terms of breaking Hamas' strength? Not much. The first day, yesterday, had some 250 Gazans killed. Let's be generous and say they're all Hamas militants.

Now look at this analysis in Haaretz:

Do the math. That's 60 days, or 2 month, with the same amount of success. Provided, of course, that all those casualties are indeed militants. They're not, it'll be more like the roughly 50% success rate Israel had in previous actions, so multiply by 2.

Moreover, Israel hasn't hit the core of Hamas' military strength, the al-Qassam brigades, but the police-like forces. Let's hear Amira Hass:

So, no, it won't significantly weaken Hamas, I think. In the end, it's another round of senseless bloodletting that makes peace a rather more distant than a closer prospect.

A good post all in all I think.

But I disagree with your last sentiment. I do not think it moves peace closer or further away. I do not think the current set up can lead to peace.

Hamas is an organization founded on the aim of the destruction of the state of Israel. AS someone in Isreael once said "Our enemies want us to die. We wish to live. there is not much room for compromise"

How the hell can there be peace between a two countries when one of them has the stated aim of destroying the other?

At some point an Arab leader has to arise who has something constructive to offer the Palestinians, something other than the endless round of privation, destruction death and popverty.

When THAT person arrives then, possibly, there is hope for peace.

portlandatheist · 29th December 2008, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by ddt

Did you actually read the article?

The ceasefire was between Hamas and Israel.

Try google:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...re&btnG=Search

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ceasefire.html

Quote:

Hamas fires at Israel, threatening hopes of renewed ceasefire

IMHO, the "ceasefire" was broken with the rocket attacks against Israel, but that's just me.

BirdStrike · 29th December 2008, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

IMHO, the "ceasefire" was broken with the rocket attacks against Israel, but that's just me.

{sarcasm on}

Naaaaa. 60 rockets in one day is not breaking the ceasefire portlandatheist.

Quote:

Twenty-four homemade rockets and a mortar shell were fired into Israel from Gaza on Wednesday, causing shrapnel wounds to three shoppers near a supermarket.

The attacks came as a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas that has existed in name only since early November was set to expire on Friday.

nationalpost

Naaaaaaaaaaa... 24 rockets isn't breaking the ceasefire either.

Quote:

Palestinian militants have fired rockets into Israel, hours after an unexpected ceasefire was called between the two sides.

The ceasefire came into effect at 0600 (0400 GMT) after the Palestinian Authority said groups would end attacks and Israel agreed to halt hostilities.

Hamas' armed wing said it launched the attacks because some Israeli troops were still in Gaza, east of the town of Jabaliya, despite the Israelis saying they had pulled out all their troops overnight.

BBC

Nope. No broken ceasefire either.

Quote:

During the year 2006 alone, 1000+ rockets were launched. As of May 2008, over 3,000 rockets had been launched[3]

wikipedia

dudalb · 29th December 2008, 03:45 PM

I notice that there was not much outrage when Hamas launched rockets into Israel.
When the Euros talk about how the US should be more even handed in the Arab Israeli conflict, my answer is "We Will If You Will".
BTW it really does not matter if creating Israel was a good idea or not. You have Five Million Jews there, and that little fact is not going away, and sort of makes going back to 1948 impossible, unless a little genocide is applied.

Pardalis · 29th December 2008, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by ddt

The ceasefire was between Hamas and Israel.

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

IMHO, the "ceasefire" was broken with the rocket attacks against Israel, but that's just me.

I may be wrong, but I think what DDL is arguing is that Israel has to negociate ceasefires with two different political entities now...

ddt · 29th December 2008, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

I may be wrong, but I think what DDL is arguing is that Israel has to negociate ceasefires with two different political entities now...

ddt is the name.

I was arguing that the case portlandatheist showed was not a case where Hamas itself lobbed the rockets, but Fatah did. To continue with the analogies here about Mexico and the US: it's as if a Mexican druglord would lob a rocket over the Rio Grande. Would the US also see that as a breach of the peace between the two countries?

Pardalis · 29th December 2008, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by ddt

ddt is the name.

Oups, my apologies, what does it stand for btw?

korenyx · 29th December 2008, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

Israel was supposed to allow all neccessary food, water, and supplies into Gaza. They failed to do this. So in their own way, they also broke the cease-fire.

Denying food, water, and supplies is a passive act of violence.

If you treat people like rabid dogs you shouldn't be suprised when they turn into rabid dogs.

gdnp · 30th December 2008, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by korenyx

If you treat people like rabid dogs you shouldn't be suprised when they turn into rabid dogs.

I think of it more as whacking on a beehive and then acting surprised when you get attacked by the bees.

yairhol · 30th December 2008, 05:27 AM

How come I never see posts started by ddt and co. when Hamas fires rockets at Israel when ceasefire is in action?
Posts only appear when Israel retaliates.

ddt · 30th December 2008, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by yairhol

How come I never see posts started by ddt and co. when Hamas fires rockets at Israel when ceasefire is in action?
Posts only appear when Israel retaliates.

What about a deal? You accomplish there will be a ceasefire again. Then I will maintain a thread here and document in it every infraction of the ceasefire - Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Israel, Martians, whoever.

Darth Rotor · 30th December 2008, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

What about a deal? You accomplish there will be a ceasefire again. Then I will maintain a thread here and document in it every infraction of the ceasefire - Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Israel, Martians, whoever.

Freakin' Martians, can't they get involved in their own darned dispute? Do they have to crowd into one that's already full of attitude cases?

DR

Policenaut · 30th December 2008, 07:56 AM

Even if they get the majority of Hamas targets they will just probably step up suicide attacks for years until they can rebuild. What are the chances Hamas will be voted out of power? I gotta think the average Gazan now sees that electing them was a poor choice.

Darth Rotor · 30th December 2008, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Policenaut

Even if they get the majority of Hamas targets they will just probably step up suicide attacks for years until they can rebuild. What are the chances Hamas will be voted out of power? I gotta think the average Gazan now sees that electing them was a poor choice.

Or, the average Gazan sees it as

Hamas was right, those ****** Israelis are bombing us again.

@ parky:

I finally voted, and given the poor choices, all I could come up with is "Hamas will keep on doing rocket attacks" since I am unsure how good they are at the moment in recruiting suicide bombers.

DR

ravdin · 30th December 2008, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

To continue with the analogies here about Mexico and the US: it's as if a Mexican druglord would lob a rocket over the Rio Grande. Would the US also see that as a breach of the peace between the two countries?

If the Mexicans harbored said druglord and provided material aid and comfort, then yes.

Policenaut · 30th December 2008, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Or, the average Gazan sees it as

Hamas was right, those ****** Israelis are bombing us again.

DR

Probably but that would be very dumb considering that Hamas is the reason why Gaza is being bombed. Then again the whole situation is very dumb.

DrBaltar · 30th December 2008, 08:38 AM

Enough is enough. Ideally both sides could see the error in their ways and realize there is no god and say oops, sorry for the last 3000 years of insanity. But that's not going to happen.

Another idea is we could use the area as a nuclear waste dump so the whole area will be uninhabitable for the next 100,000 years until both sides forget about the dispute.

But I'd say let Israel completely wipe out Hamas. They are fundamentally incapable of honoring a cease fire. The bright side is Hamas can win the Darwin Award in 2009.

gdnp · 30th December 2008, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by DrBaltar

But I'd say let Israel completely wipe out Hamas.

About as likely as the residents of New York City killing all the rats.

DrBaltar · 30th December 2008, 09:17 AM

"Israel Considers Offering Hamas a Cease-Fire"
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473868,00.html

Oh come on! Do you like dealing with barbarians outside your country year after year? Finish them off!

ddt · 30th December 2008, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by ravdin

If the Mexicans harbored said druglord and provided material aid and comfort, then yes.

Thanks, I was waiting for that reaction.

You may note that in the same newspaper article, a Hamas spokesperson criticized the perpetrator of the rocket attack:

Quote:

"It has become clear that some Palestinian parties do not want this calm deal to succeed and they do not want the siege to be lifted," Mushir al-Masri, a Hamas spokesman, said

I note also that on 18 September, the UN rapporteur said in the UNSC:

Quote:

The one area where there is positive news is security. The ceasefire has continued to hold during the reporting period. Hamas has made efforts to prevent the launching of rockets and mortars into Israel and, during the reporting period, two rockets and one mortar were launched.

So, to continue the analogy with Mexico: that would be that Mexico tried to catch said druglord, but they don't yet get him and he manages to launch two rockets.

I'm not saying this is the picture for the whole period of the ceasefire. Hamas certainly has broken it on a couple of occasions. But the newspaper article presented is no such case.

WildCat · 30th December 2008, 10:52 AM

Millions of pages of debate on the internet, that's what!

Hamas will not stop the rockets and will begin suicide attacks in Israel.	21	47.73%
Hamas will stop the rockets but launch suicide attacks in Israel.	5	11.36%
Hamas will continue the rocket attacks.	13	29.55%
Hamas will stop the rocket attacks and seek a cease-fire.	5	11.36%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

27th December 2008, 10:21 PM	#1
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	What will be the result of the Israeli attacks on Gaza? What will be accomplished from the Israeli strikes on Gaza?

27th December 2008, 11:07 PM	#2
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089	More innocent civilians killed and more idiots shouting Anti-Semite! A big step backward on all fronts! Well done Israel!
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089

27th December 2008, 11:16 PM	#3
Miss_Kitt Zombie Horse of Homeopathy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Lesser Seattle Posts: 3,663	Parky -- I think you left out a couple of options in the poll, like: Hamas doesn't have control of the people launching the rockets; or Another Arab state / organization will launch attacks on or within Israel; or On Planet X, We sent our equivalent of the Israelis and the Palenstinians to an airless moon en masse, and turned the land into a Museum of Stupidity. Regards, MK
	__________________ It's much better to live an honest life than a delusional one -- desertgal Magic thinking is a lead personal floatation device. It looks really reassuring, but it will drag you down--whatthebutlersaw

28th December 2008, 04:10 AM	#4
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	A very short-sighted poll I regard the current violence as another nail in the coffin of the two-state solution. It will soon be too late to resurrect that idea. The region is on the path to a one-state solution.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

28th December 2008, 04:11 AM	#5
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy More innocent civilians killed and more idiots shouting Anti-Semite! A big step backward on all fronts! Well done Israel! What about Hamas breaking the cease-fire to begin with? Oh right, we have to be tolerant towards them, breaking cease-fire is part of their "nature". It's a cultural thing. Racist me...
	Last edited by Pardalis; 28th December 2008 at 04:14 AM.

28th December 2008, 04:57 AM	#6
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,406	Originally Posted by parky76 What will be accomplished from the Israeli strikes on Gaza? In terms of breaking Hamas' strength? Not much. The first day, yesterday, had some 250 Gazans killed. Let's be generous and say they're all Hamas militants. Now look at this analysis in Haaretz: Quote: Approximately 15,000 armed Palestinians. That's the size of the military force the Israel Defense Forces will face if a major operation in the Gaza Strip goes forward. These militants, from various Hamas factions, will presumably be aided by a few thousand militants from other Palestinian groups. Do the math. That's 60 days, or 2 month, with the same amount of success. Provided, of course, that all those casualties are indeed militants. They're not, it'll be more like the roughly 50% success rate Israel had in previous actions, so multiply by 2. Moreover, Israel hasn't hit the core of Hamas' military strength, the al-Qassam brigades, but the police-like forces. Let's hear Amira Hass: Quote: Training camps of the Izz-al Din al-Qassam and interrogation and detention centers were deserted when they were bombed. But police centers in the Strip, which give services to people, were teeming. No one believed that they would be bombed. So, no, it won't significantly weaken Hamas, I think. In the end, it's another round of senseless bloodletting that makes peace a rather more distant than a closer prospect.
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group

28th December 2008, 07:46 AM	#7
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Pardalis What about Hamas breaking the cease-fire to begin with? Oh right, we have to be tolerant towards them, breaking cease-fire is part of their "nature". It's a cultural thing. Racist me... Israel was supposed to allow all neccessary food, water, and supplies into Gaza. They failed to do this. So in their own way, they also broke the cease-fire. Denying food, water, and supplies is a passive act of violence.

29th December 2008, 10:19 AM	#8
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089	Originally Posted by parky76 Israel was supposed to allow all neccessary food, water, and supplies into Gaza. They failed to do this. So in their own way, they also broke the cease-fire. Denying food, water, and supplies is a passive act of violence. Israel broke the ceasefire back in November 4th by shooting 6 Palestinians militants and rocekts were fired at Israel in response
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089

29th December 2008, 10:42 AM	#9
TriskettheKid Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,432	Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy Israel broke the ceasefire back in November 4th by shooting 6 Palestinians militants and rocekts were fired at Israel in response Well, if you want to play that game, Hamas broke the ceasefire a mere 5 days after it went into effect. They fired off a few Qassams on June 24. Quite a bit of restraint from Hamas, considering they had agreed to a ceasefire that began on June 19.

29th December 2008, 11:04 AM	#10
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,378	Originally Posted by ddt Moreover, Israel hasn't hit the core of Hamas' military strength, the al-Qassam brigades, but the police-like forces. Let's hear Amira Hass: This isn't a video game. Pure attrition isn't the only way for an army to disintegrate. Sometimes, morale breaks and they quit. (Not seeing it for Hamas, however.) Quote: So, no, it won't significantly weaken Hamas, I think. In the end, it's another round of senseless bloodletting that makes peace a rather more distant than a closer prospect. Senseless or not, I agree with the bolded part: more grist for the Hamas recruiting mill. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

29th December 2008, 11:52 AM	#11
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,497	Originally Posted by parky76 ... Denying food, water, and supplies is a passive act of violence. Generally called a "siege."
	__________________ Are you IN? Join the IN crowd now!

29th December 2008, 12:24 PM	#12
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	Originally Posted by FireGarden A very short-sighted poll I regard the current violence as another nail in the coffin of the two-state solution. It will soon be too late to resurrect that idea. The region is on the path to a one-state solution. And what will happen to the Jews in Israel when HAMAS takes over? IMHO advocates of a "Single State Solution" are really advocating a "Ethnic Cleansing" if Jews from Palestine, although they won't admit that or carefully delude themselves that that will not be the final result.

29th December 2008, 12:29 PM	#13
Tandem Thinking Thinker Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: North of the Great White North Posts: 242	I'm not sure what everyone else here was expecting when Hamas launched rockets into Israel. If Canada or Mexico launched rockets into the U.S., I'm positive we would've done more than launch air strikes.

29th December 2008, 12:38 PM	#14
Drewbot Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,874	Israel is going to go in on the ground soon, this time they are not going to tell us when and where.
Drewbot Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,874	__________________ "I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic

29th December 2008, 12:49 PM	#15
portlandatheist Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,111	Originally Posted by Pardalis What about Hamas breaking the cease-fire to begin with? Don't you read the news? When Palestinians bombard Israel with rockets, they are "threatening the cease-fire" but the cease fire is not actually broken until Israel launches rockets. Lots of examples: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4224397.ece "Gaza Rockets threaten ceasefire.." Same rules hold for peace treaties and negotiations.

29th December 2008, 12:52 PM	#16
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089	Originally Posted by TriskettheKid Well, if you want to play that game, Hamas broke the ceasefire a mere 5 days after it went into effect. They fired off a few Qassams on June 24. Quite a bit of restraint from Hamas, considering they had agreed to a ceasefire that began on June 19. Well if you want to play that game then the Zionist Movement spent 50 years planning and implementing the creation of Israel on a land where other people lived and without regard for those people. Since it's creation Israel has spent 60 years persecuting those people in order to drive them off the land they once owned and had their livelihoods.
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089

29th December 2008, 12:59 PM	#17
TriskettheKid Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,432	Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy Well if you want to play that game then the Zionist Movement spent 50 years planning and implementing the creation of Israel on a land where other people lived and without regard for those people. Since it's creation Israel has spent 60 years persecuting those people in order to drive them off the land they once owned and had their livelihoods. That is an interesting interpretation of history. It's also an interesting dodge to the point on hand: The ceasefire started on June 19, Hamas broke it on June 24. I can assume, based on your dodge, that you accept this?

29th December 2008, 01:06 PM	#18
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,378	Originally Posted by portlandatheist Don't you read the news? When Palestinians bombard Israel with rockets, they are "threatening the cease-fire" but the cease fire is not actually broken until Israel launches rockets. Lots of examples: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4224397.ece "Gaza Rockets threaten ceasefire.." Same rules hold for peace treaties and negotiations. It seems that Hamas and Gaza are in deed at war with Israel, if I wish to play dictionary definition lotto today. Originally Posted by wikipedia A ceasefire (or truce) is a temporary stoppage of any armed conflict, where each side of the conflict agrees with the other to suspend aggressive actions. Ceasefires may be declared as part of a formal treaty, but they have also been called as part of an informal understanding between opposing forces. One can argue that there had to be a war before they could agree a ceasefire. One could. This raises an interesting point regarding how this conflict is covered. As I understand it, a ceasefire ceases when firing begins. PA, thanks again for pointing this out. Careless use of language is part of a misinformation campaign, whomever uses it. You'd think even a journalist knows this mechanism about cease and fire. Then again, maybe a cease fire isn't broken until both sides fire? Is that the idea? That would mean that North Korea could start shelling Seoul, and the cease fire would still be in effect until the US and South Korea fired back. Yeah, that's it. It also means the US can shell North Korea without breaking the cease fire. Hell, let's roll! (Kidding)
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 29th December 2008 at 01:09 PM.

29th December 2008, 01:36 PM	#19
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,406	Originally Posted by portlandatheist Don't you read the news? When Palestinians bombard Israel with rockets, they are "threatening the cease-fire" but the cease fire is not actually broken until Israel launches rockets. Lots of examples: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4224397.ece "Gaza Rockets threaten ceasefire.." Same rules hold for peace treaties and negotiations. Did you actually read the article? Quote: Today's rocket-attacks have been claimed by the al-Asqa Martyrs Brigades, a military splinter group of Fatah. The ceasefire was between Hamas and Israel.
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29th December 2008, 01:42 PM	#20
Deus Ex Machina Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 497	Originally Posted by ddt In terms of breaking Hamas' strength? Not much. The first day, yesterday, had some 250 Gazans killed. Let's be generous and say they're all Hamas militants. Now look at this analysis in Haaretz: Do the math. That's 60 days, or 2 month, with the same amount of success. Provided, of course, that all those casualties are indeed militants. They're not, it'll be more like the roughly 50% success rate Israel had in previous actions, so multiply by 2. Moreover, Israel hasn't hit the core of Hamas' military strength, the al-Qassam brigades, but the police-like forces. Let's hear Amira Hass: So, no, it won't significantly weaken Hamas, I think. In the end, it's another round of senseless bloodletting that makes peace a rather more distant than a closer prospect. A good post all in all I think. But I disagree with your last sentiment. I do not think it moves peace closer or further away. I do not think the current set up can lead to peace. Hamas is an organization founded on the aim of the destruction of the state of Israel. AS someone in Isreael once said "Our enemies want us to die. We wish to live. there is not much room for compromise" How the hell can there be peace between a two countries when one of them has the stated aim of destroying the other? At some point an Arab leader has to arise who has something constructive to offer the Palestinians, something other than the endless round of privation, destruction death and popverty. When THAT person arrives then, possibly, there is hope for peace.
	__________________ My principles? They are very much for sale and surprisingly cheap. I take credit cards.

29th December 2008, 02:30 PM	#21
portlandatheist Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,111	Originally Posted by ddt Did you actually read the article? The ceasefire was between Hamas and Israel. Try google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...re&btnG=Search http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ceasefire.html Quote: Hamas fires at Israel, threatening hopes of renewed ceasefire IMHO, the "ceasefire" was broken with the rocket attacks against Israel, but that's just me.

29th December 2008, 02:36 PM	#22
BirdStrike Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 448	Originally Posted by portlandatheist IMHO, the "ceasefire" was broken with the rocket attacks against Israel, but that's just me. {sarcasm on} Naaaaa. 60 rockets in one day is not breaking the ceasefire portlandatheist. Quote: Twenty-four homemade rockets and a mortar shell were fired into Israel from Gaza on Wednesday, causing shrapnel wounds to three shoppers near a supermarket. The attacks came as a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas that has existed in name only since early November was set to expire on Friday. nationalpost Naaaaaaaaaaa... 24 rockets isn't breaking the ceasefire either. Quote: Palestinian militants have fired rockets into Israel, hours after an unexpected ceasefire was called between the two sides. The ceasefire came into effect at 0600 (0400 GMT) after the Palestinian Authority said groups would end attacks and Israel agreed to halt hostilities. Hamas' armed wing said it launched the attacks because some Israeli troops were still in Gaza, east of the town of Jabaliya, despite the Israelis saying they had pulled out all their troops overnight. BBC Nope. No broken ceasefire either. Quote: During the year 2006 alone, 1000+ rockets were launched. As of May 2008, over 3,000 rockets had been launched[3] wikipedia
	__________________ "God is a drunken college freshman from some alien race, and we're his science fair project. We got third place." Last edited by BirdStrike; 29th December 2008 at 02:53 PM.

29th December 2008, 03:45 PM	#23
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	I notice that there was not much outrage when Hamas launched rockets into Israel. When the Euros talk about how the US should be more even handed in the Arab Israeli conflict, my answer is "We Will If You Will". BTW it really does not matter if creating Israel was a good idea or not. You have Five Million Jews there, and that little fact is not going away, and sort of makes going back to 1948 impossible, unless a little genocide is applied.

29th December 2008, 05:26 PM	#24
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by ddt The ceasefire was between Hamas and Israel. Originally Posted by portlandatheist IMHO, the "ceasefire" was broken with the rocket attacks against Israel, but that's just me. I may be wrong, but I think what DDL is arguing is that Israel has to negociate ceasefires with two different political entities now...

29th December 2008, 05:53 PM	#25
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,406	Originally Posted by Pardalis I may be wrong, but I think what DDL is arguing is that Israel has to negociate ceasefires with two different political entities now... ddt is the name. I was arguing that the case portlandatheist showed was not a case where Hamas itself lobbed the rockets, but Fatah did. To continue with the analogies here about Mexico and the US: it's as if a Mexican druglord would lob a rocket over the Rio Grande. Would the US also see that as a breach of the peace between the two countries?
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29th December 2008, 06:02 PM	#26
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by ddt ddt is the name. Oups, my apologies, what does it stand for btw?

29th December 2008, 06:50 PM	#27
korenyx Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 19th Century Kansas Posts: 828	Originally Posted by parky76 Israel was supposed to allow all neccessary food, water, and supplies into Gaza. They failed to do this. So in their own way, they also broke the cease-fire. Denying food, water, and supplies is a passive act of violence. If you treat people like rabid dogs you shouldn't be suprised when they turn into rabid dogs.

30th December 2008, 05:16 AM	#28
gdnp useless idiot Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Jersey-You gotta problem wit dat? Posts: 4,999	Originally Posted by korenyx If you treat people like rabid dogs you shouldn't be suprised when they turn into rabid dogs. I think of it more as whacking on a beehive and then acting surprised when you get attacked by the bees.

30th December 2008, 05:27 AM	#29
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	How come I never see posts started by ddt and co. when Hamas fires rockets at Israel when ceasefire is in action? Posts only appear when Israel retaliates.
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

30th December 2008, 05:47 AM	#30
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,406	Originally Posted by yairhol How come I never see posts started by ddt and co. when Hamas fires rockets at Israel when ceasefire is in action? Posts only appear when Israel retaliates. What about a deal? You accomplish there will be a ceasefire again. Then I will maintain a thread here and document in it every infraction of the ceasefire - Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Israel, Martians, whoever.
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30th December 2008, 07:07 AM	#31
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,378	Originally Posted by ddt What about a deal? You accomplish there will be a ceasefire again. Then I will maintain a thread here and document in it every infraction of the ceasefire - Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Israel, Martians, whoever. Freakin' Martians, can't they get involved in their own darned dispute? Do they have to crowd into one that's already full of attitude cases? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

30th December 2008, 07:56 AM	#32
Policenaut Infidel Defiler Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Shadow Moses Island Posts: 2,193	Even if they get the majority of Hamas targets they will just probably step up suicide attacks for years until they can rebuild. What are the chances Hamas will be voted out of power? I gotta think the average Gazan now sees that electing them was a poor choice.

30th December 2008, 08:01 AM	#33
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,378	Originally Posted by Policenaut Even if they get the majority of Hamas targets they will just probably step up suicide attacks for years until they can rebuild. What are the chances Hamas will be voted out of power? I gotta think the average Gazan now sees that electing them was a poor choice. Or, the average Gazan sees it as Hamas was right, those ***** Israelis are bombing us again.* @ parky: I finally voted, and given the poor choices, all I could come up with is "Hamas will keep on doing rocket attacks" since I am unsure how good they are at the moment in recruiting suicide bombers. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 30th December 2008 at 08:23 AM.

30th December 2008, 08:03 AM	#34
ravdin Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,611	Originally Posted by ddt To continue with the analogies here about Mexico and the US: it's as if a Mexican druglord would lob a rocket over the Rio Grande. Would the US also see that as a breach of the peace between the two countries? If the Mexicans harbored said druglord and provided material aid and comfort, then yes.