Israel begins ground operations

[Texas]

I'm suprised that a thread has not been started yet.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090104/...ians_israel_97

Quote:

GAZA (Reuters) – Israeli tanks and infantry battled Hamas fighters in the Gaza Strip on Sunday in a ground offensive launched after eight days of deadly air strikes failed to halt the Islamist group's rocket attacks on Israel.

Wearing night-vision goggles on their helmets and camouflage paint on their faces, Israeli soldiers entered the densely populated enclave on Saturday along with tank columns that swept in from four points as combat helicopters flew overhead

.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I'm sorry, but you need to add on some adamantly Zionist comments or terrorist apologizing ones before constructive discussion can begin.

Quote:

Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, representing major powers sponsoring Middle East peace talks, planned to begin shuttling on Sunday between Israeli leaders and Palestinian leaders -- Hamas's rivals -- in the occupied West Bank.
But divisions within the European Union over the Israeli operation could buy Israel more time.
France condemned the Israeli ground assault, as well as Hamas rocket fire. On Monday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy is scheduled to go to Jerusalem. Israel had rejected Paris's calls for a 48-hour ceasefire.
Diplomats said the Europeans were drafting a new proposal for a truce. Political sources said some Israeli officials favor a formal ceasefire backed by the U.N. and major powers. Other decision makers in Israel say it would only tie their hands should rocket fire continue.

Why are Europeans making peace plans? If either of the warring parties want peace, they should advocate that on their own and ask for mediation. Otherwise, let them fight it out, because the truces will probably be as effective as the last one, and the one before that, and the one before...

My question is what will Israel do after kicking Hamas' *** in Gaza? 'Cause we all know that that is going to happen and no amount of UN whining will stop it.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

I'm sorry, but you need to add on some adamantly Zionist comments or terrorist apologizing ones before constructive discussion can begin.



Why are Europeans making peace plans? If either of the warring parties want peace, they should advocate that on their own and ask for mediation. Otherwise, let them fight it out, because the truces will probably be as effective as the last one, and the one before that, and the one before...

My question is what will Israel do after kicking Hamas' *** in Gaza? 'Cause we all know that that is going to happen and no amount of UN whining will stop it.

It appears that the plan is to overthrow Hamas and allow Fatah to take control. Hamas appears to be very isolated at the moment by most Arab States. I don't believe Israel has any desire to re-occupy Gaza.

[WildCat]

Here's IDF video of the preparations. Lots of heavy armor.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

For all those worried about the IDF not allowing comments on their videos, they are allowed for this video for the time being.

[Policenaut]

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

My question is what will Israel do after kicking Hamas' *** in Gaza? 'Cause we all know that that is going to happen and no amount of UN whining will stop it.

That's the question. Hamas won't quit no matter if they "see that shooting rockets into Gaza is not helpful to their situation." I think they know that continuing shooting rockets isn't doing a damn thing for their people. It's only bolstering Hamas' power and support. So Israel really has no good options and this ground invasion will probably end pretty soon or else it will be in a semi-occupation status for a fairly long period of time. But now that they've started they can't just roll in, say mission accomplished, roll out, and then still have rockets being launched out of Gaza. And the UN doing anything substantial would be a miracle.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by Policenaut

That's the question. Hamas won't quit no matter if they "see that shooting rockets into Gaza is not helpful to their situation." I think they know that continuing shooting rockets isn't doing a damn thing for their people. It's only bolstering Hamas' power and support. So Israel really has no good options and this ground invasion will probably end pretty soon or else it will be in a semi-occupation status for a fairly long period of time. But now that they've started they can't just roll in, say mission accomplished, roll out, and then still have rockets being launched out of Gaza. And the UN doing anything substantial would be a miracle.

I have a feeling that this is the real deal this time. All signs appear to point to Israel having tacit approval by the Arab states and Fatah to do whatever it takes to kill Hamas once and for all. The UN has shown absolutely no urgency on this and that in itself is telling.

[interwaff]

Those rockets are a nuisance, but since there are no WMDs in Gaza, there is no right to invade. We all learned that, didn't we?

[Thunder]

Cool. Now let the real fighting begin. I hope Hamas kicks some butt. Even the score a little. Show the Israelis that 4 Jews DOES NOT equal 400 Arabs.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by parky76

Cool. Now let the real fighting begin. I hope Hamas kicks some butt. Even the score a little. Show the Israelis that 4 Jews DOES NOT equal 400 Arabs.

Wow.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by parky76

Cool. Now let the real fighting begin. I hope Hamas kicks some butt. Even the score a little. Show the Israelis that 4 Jews DOES NOT equal 400 Arabs.

You are sick.

[interwaff]

Originally Posted by parky76

Cool. Now let the real fighting begin. I hope Hamas kicks some butt. Even the score a little. Show the Israelis that 4 Jews DOES NOT equal 400 Arabs.

Body count is one good measure of justice, but it's far more efficient to do it by gross weight.

For example- have all of the Jews and Arabs stand on a scale, and randomly kill however many are needed to balance it.

No children or fat people will be allowed on the scales, because that would be cheating.

[Thunder]

lol

but seriously, I think its cowardly to bomb an enemy into submission. soldier to soldier combat is what a real war is all about.

let the games begin!!!

but in all seriousness, I think Israel has done a horrible thing with the blockade and then the destruction of Gaza. only when an army actually suffers real human loses do they seem to start to understand the seriousness of their actions.

A body count of 500 Israeli soldiers will hopefully smack some sense into Israel.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by parky76

lol

but seriously, I think its cowardly to bomb an enemy into submission. soldier to soldier combat is what a real war is all about.

let the games begin!!!

It's about winning, not about fairness.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by parky76

lol

but seriously, I think its cowardly to bomb an enemy into submission. soldier to soldier combat is what a real war is all about.

let the games begin!!!

Parky have you ever been in a bar fight? Your attitude would put you in a hospital or worse. War is even more unfair. Remember Indiana Jones and the guy with the sword in the market?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkLXdLgOybE

[Childlike Empress]

[image removed]

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Texas

Parky have you ever been in a bar fight? Your attitude would put you in a hospital or worse. War is even more unfair. Remember Indiana Jones and the guy with the sword in the market?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkLXdLgOybE

There used to be some sense of honor in warfare. Not anymore.

There is nothing honorable..nothing courageous..about attacking an enemy armed with mortors and AK-47s..with 1,000 pound bombs and laser guided missiles from the safety of a F-16 at 10,000 feet.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by parky76

lol

but seriously, I think its cowardly to bomb an enemy into submission. soldier to soldier combat is what a real war is all about.

let the games begin!!!

but in all seriousness, I think Israel has done a horrible thing with the blockade and then the destruction of Gaza. only when an army actually suffers real human loses do they seem to start to understand the seriousness of their actions.

A body count of 500 Israeli soldiers will hopefully smack some sense into Israel.

Your edit is even more mind boggling.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

http://www.proswastika.org/e107_imag..._corrected.jpg

funny. that is the early image of the crazy Raelian cult.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by parky76

There used to be some sense of honor in warfare. Not anymore.

There is nothing honorable..nothing courageous..about attacking an enemy armed with mortors and AK-47s..with 1,000 pound bombs and laser guided missiles from the safety of a F-16 at 10,000 feet.

Give me just one example of "honor" in war ever.

[Thunder]

i think a fair fight...or even a fairer fight...has some honor to it.

why is punching someone in the groin not allowed in boxing or karate? cause there is no honor in it...and renders the opponent useless.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

http://www.proswastika.org/e107_imag..._corrected.jpg

It's telling that, so far, 100% of the forum truthers that have posted on this issue in "politics" have been rabid haters of Israel.

[Childlike Empress]

Originally Posted by parky76

funny. that is the early image of the crazy Raelian cult.

I don't think it's funny. It's so sad. Most pedophiles were abused during their childhood.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by parky76

i think a fair fight...or even a fairer fight...has some honor to it.

why is punching someone in the groin not allowed in boxing or karate? cause there is no honor in it...and renders the opponent useless.

You stated that "war" used to be fought with "honor" now you are bringing up boxing and Karate that are both refereed sports. Learn the first rule of holes. BTW a groin kick is one of the FIRST karate kicks learned.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

I don't think it's funny. It's so sad. Most pedophiles were abused during their childhood.

Um...come again?


talk about a massive derail. Its like the F train is heading towards Philly.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by parky76

There used to be some sense of honor in warfare.

When was that? Please be specific.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by WildCat

When was that? Please be specific.

IT must have been in a Galaxy far far away.

[The Fool]

Originally Posted by parky76

i think a fair fight...or even a fairer fight...has some honor to it.

why is punching someone in the groin not allowed in boxing or karate? cause there is no honor in it...and renders the opponent useless.

This isn't MMA Cage rage 2008 pay per view. Many innocent peple have died and will die.

Hamas has had its go and shown it can't control itself. If rumors are true and a different Palestinian regime is to be given a chance then lets please give them a chance. Its time to address Palestinian nationalism and sort out a real deal that includes a viable palestinian state. This will not end all the troubles but it is required before any end is possible.

[Childlike Empress]

Originally Posted by parky76

Um...come again?


talk about a massive derail. Its like the F train is heading towards Philly.

I have removed the image. I am sorry. I made a decision to not get involved in any discussions about this conflict, mainly because of my heritage. But it hurts me SO much and i am drunken now. Sorry. Carry on.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by The Fool

This isn't MMA Cage rage 2008 pay per view. Many innocent peple have died and will die.

Hamas has had its go and shown it can't control itself. If rumors are true and a different Palestinian regime is to be given a chance then lets please give them a chance. Its time to address Palestinian nationalism and sort out a real deal that includes a viable palestinian state. This will not end all the troubles but it is required before any end is possible.

It appears that Israel has promised Fatah that it will hand over Gaza to them as soon as Hamas is destroyed. In the meantime Fatah members are being targeted by Hamas as "collaborators".

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

Quote:

The move came amid reports that the Fatah leadership in the West Bank has instructed its followers to be ready to assume power over the Gaza Strip when and if Israel's military operation results in the removal of Hamas rule.

Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken.

Wisam Abu Jalhoum, a Fatah activist from the Jabalya refugee camp, was shot in the legs by Hamas militiamen for allegedly expressing joy over the IDF air strikes on Hamas targets.

"Hamas is very nervous, because they feel that their end is nearing," a senior Fatah official said. "They have been waging a brutal campaign against Fatah members in the Gaza Strip."

Meanwhile, sources close to Hamas revealed over the weekend that the movement had "executed" more than 35 Palestinians who were suspected of collaborating with Israel and were being held in various Hamas security installations

[Thunder]

Hmm.....Fatah and Israel becoming stronger allies due to the common enemy in Hamas.

Interesting. This might go in some interesting directions.

If Israel really wants peace, they will start seriously propping up and assisting Fatah NOW.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Originally Posted by WildCat

You are sick.

Sick is he?


I think a country with one of the most modern militaries in the world , thanks to the America Taxpayer, pounding the **** out of a small group of people who are armed with little more than primitive rockets and killing a whole bunch of civilians in the process is SICK.

I think a country that racially discriminates against people, implements a regime of apartheid, collectively punishes, persecutes and ghettoizes a whole group of people, including holding up their pregnant women at checkpoints is SICK.

The IDF aren't civilians, they are legitimate targets. I also hope Hamas gives 'em a good kicking.

All those sitting in front of their TV with six packs and egging on the murder of Palestinian civilians because they are the wrong race are sick!!

[Texas]

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Sick is he?



The IDF aren't civilians, they are legitimate targets. I also hope Hamas gives 'em a good kicking.

All those sitting in front of their TV with six packs and egging on the murder of Palestinian civilians because they are the wrong race are sick!!

Yeah I hope Hamas comes out of their holes too. They don't seem too eager to actually put their asses on the line.

[interwaff]

What is and isn't cowardly will not be determined by the dead.

You just have to live with yourself afterward, and some annoying dumb people at home who wish to shame you for their own political gain, regardless of your deeds good and evil.

[WildCat]

Gotta love it when stupid people protest:

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Yeah that was really funny.

I hope he doesn't shoot my kool-aid

[gdnp]

Originally Posted by parky76

i think a fair fight...or even a fairer fight...has some honor to it.

Bull. War is killing the other guy before he kills you. The honor comes in those who risk their lives for the greater good. If I see the enemy sitting on the john I'm going to shoot him there, not wait for him to get his pants on so we can have a fair fight.

That being said, it would appear that Israel's objective is to destroy Hamas completely. They will try to complete the coup that Fatah was preparing for when Hamas kicked them out of Gaza. Israel has the advantage that Hamas, being clients of Iran, are not particularly popular in the Arab world.

It remains to be seen whether Fatah is seen by the Gazans as puppets of the Israelis when Abbas is put back in charge. Hamas has considerable support on the West Bank as well. People on the street will tend to side with the civilian population. If Fatah are seen as collaborators with the Israelis it could get pretty ugly. It's hard to imagine the new leadership will be less radical.

Perhaps Israel will release Barghouti to pick up the pieces. I remember hearing years ago the theory that they were keeping him in jail to give him street cred and to keep his hands clean in the internal palestinian power struggles. If they are planning on playing the Barghouti as Mandella card, their opportunity may be soon.

[plumjam]

Originally Posted by Texas

Give me just one example of "honor" in war ever.

I recently read a book about Agincourt. Prior to this battle Henry V took many prisoners at the siege of Harfleur. These prisoners were released on oath, that they would be allowed to go home, but would have to turn up on a particular date at Calais, in order to be taken as prisoners back to England. After moving on to Agincourt and winning that battle Henry and his army moved north to Calais to return to England.
All of the prisoners released on oath weeks earlier indeed turned up at Calais for the specified date, and most were taken to England. Many of these were ransomed back to their families and estates in France, but this process often took years. Some never saw France again, being judged as too influential, capable, and therefore dangerous to English interests. They lived out the rest of their lives in England, as prisoners.
So, rather than suffer the dishonour of breaking an oath, all of these men willingly returned to captivity, knowing that this could well mean years or a lifetime away from their homes and families.
Apparently this was pretty standard practice at the time. There are other examples, but that is one that surprised me just recently.

[gtc]

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

All those sitting in front of their TV with six packs and egging on the murder of Palestinian civilians because they are the wrong race are sick!!

Do you think you ought to take up your concerns with those people then?

[Texas]

Originally Posted by plumjam

I recently read a book about Agincourt. Prior to this battle Henry V took many prisoners at the siege of Harfleur. These prisoners were released on oath, that they would be allowed to go home, but would have to turn up on a particular date at Calais, in order to be taken as prisoners back to England. After moving on to Agincourt and winning that battle Henry and his army moved north to Calais to return to England.
All of the prisoners released on oath weeks earlier indeed turned up at Calais for the specified date, and most were taken to England. Many of these were ransomed back to their families and estates in France, but this process often took years. Some never saw France again, being judged as too influential, capable, and therefore dangerous to English interests. They lived out the rest of their lives in England, as prisoners.
So, rather than suffer the dishonour of breaking an oath, all of these men willingly returned to captivity, knowing that this could well mean years or a lifetime away from their homes and families.
Apparently this was pretty standard practice at the time. There are other examples, but that is one that surprised me just recently.

How do you explain this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_..._the_prisoners

Quote:

The assault on the baggage train and the killing of the prisoners
The only French success was a sally from Agincourt Castle behind the lines attacking the lightly protected English baggage train, with Ysembart d'Azincourt (leading a small number of men-at-arms and about 600 peasants) seizing some of Henry's personal treasures, including a crown. In some accounts this happened towards the end of the battle, and led the English to think they were being attacked from the rear. Barker (2005) prefers the Gesta Henrici however, believed to have been written by an English chaplain who was actually in the baggage train, who says that the attack happened at the start of the battle.

Regardless, there was definitely a point after the initial English victory where Henry became alarmed that the French were regrouping for another attack. The Gesta Henrici puts this after the English had overcome the onslaught of the French men-at-arms, and the weary English troops were eyeing the French rearguard ("in incomparable number and still fresh"). Le Fevre and Waurin similarly say that it was signs of the French rearguard regrouping and "marching forward in battle order" which made the English think they were still in danger.

In any event, Henry ordered the slaughter of what was perhaps several thousand French prisoners, with only the most illustrious being spared. His fear was that they would rearm themselves with the weapons strewn upon the field, and the exhausted English (who had been fighting for about three hours) would be overwhelmed. This was certainly ruthless, but arguably justifiable given the situation of the battle; perhaps surprisingly, even the French chroniclers do not criticise him for this.[28] This marked the end of the battle, as the French rearguard, having seen so many of the French nobility captured and killed, fled the battlefield.

[gtc]

Originally Posted by gdnp

It remains to be seen whether Fatah is seen by the Gazans as puppets of the Israelis when Abbas is put back in charge. Hamas has considerable support on the West Bank as well. People on the street will tend to side with the civilian population. If Fatah are seen as collaborators with the Israelis it could get pretty ugly. It's hard to imagine the new leadership will be less radical.

Perhaps Israel will release Barghouti to pick up the pieces. I remember hearing years ago the theory that they were keeping him in jail to give him street cred and to keep his hands clean in the internal palestinian power struggles. If they are planning on playing the Barghouti as Mandella card, their opportunity may be soon.

The Palestinians are between a rock and a hard place. If they want peace and prosperity they have to work with the Israelis and work against the Islamist militants. But anyone who does that will be portrayed as a collaborator or a puppet of the zionists.