Israel begins ground operations - Page 4

lionking · 5th January 2009, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Slayhamlet

Well, it's one of the largest per capita.

Is this a serious point? The world must be in terror of the Eritrean and Transnistrian armies then.

gumboot · 5th January 2009, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

Is this a serious point? The world must be in terror of the Eritrean and Transnistrian armies then.

Not to mention Sealand's armed forces, which, according to my understanding, normally constitute 100% of the resident population (since only the "Sealand Guard" normally live there).

lionking · 6th January 2009, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

Not to mention Sealand's armed forces, which, according to my understanding, normally constitute 100% of the resident population (since only the "Sealand Guard" normally live there).

Thanks gumboot. Any country attacking Sealand would be absolutely crapping itself up against the largest per capita army in the world.

Slayhamlet · 6th January 2009, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Is this a serious point? The world must be in terror of the Eritrean and Transnistrian armies then.

No, I was being sardonic. I thought the context would have made that obvious. Guess not.

Don't really see how this little tangent matters much, anyway. Israel's military is among the most advanced in the world.

lionking · 6th January 2009, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Slayhamlet

No, I was being sardonic. I thought the context would have made that obvious. Guess not.

Don't really see how this little tangent matters much, anyway. Israel's military is among the most advanced in the world.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

yairhol · 6th January 2009, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by Slayhamlet

Okay. Can we actually see these reports?

Here's one I found from the radio station 103 FM but it's in Hebrew.
http://www.103.fm/programs/event.asp...K&c41t4nzVq=JK

gumboot · 6th January 2009, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by Slayhamlet

No, I was being sardonic. I thought the context would have made that obvious. Guess not.

Don't really see how this little tangent matters much, anyway. Israel's military is among the most advanced in the world.

I've been told before by people that know, that the only reason the IDF look any good is because their opposition is so bad. Against any other modern western army they would be annihilated.

I have seen some videos of their military operations that support this position, however this observation was made quite a few years ago, and may now be wrong.

Texas · 6th January 2009, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

I've been told before by people that know, that the only reason the IDF look any good is because their opposition is so bad. Against any other modern western army they would be annihilated.

I have seen some videos of their military operations that support this position, however this observation was made quite a few years ago, and may now be wrong.

They are the best in the Middle East but that isn't saying a lot. There appears to have been a bit of myth making when it comes to the Israeli military which has served it well over the years. That suffered a bit in 2006 in Lebanon and if it doesn't gain a clear victory in Gaza it will suffer even more so. That is extremely dangerous for Israel since the surrounding nations and especially Iran are watching very closely.

gtc · 6th January 2009, 09:50 PM

I would imagine the armies and terrorist groups that have been beaten by the IDF would have an incentive to over emphasise the IDF's qualities.

Travis · 6th January 2009, 11:01 PM

The IDF does have a lot of experience, which is invaluable, especially in urban operations.

gdnp · 7th January 2009, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

Given that Palestinians are not in the hands of Israel, as Israel was not occupying Gaza, but are in fact in the hands of Palestine, of whom they are nationals, it is impossible for Israel to conduct Collective Punishment against Palestinians.

So as long as Israel has not troops on the ground in Gaza, they can do whatever they want at the borders? Even cutting off all food, fuel, and medicine? I don't think so.

As long as Israel controls Gaza's borders, they remain the occupying power.

IDB87 · 7th January 2009, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by gdnp

Even cutting off all food, fuel, and medicine? I don't think so.

I thought Gaza receieved 'the bare minimum'? Make up my mind please.

Quote:

As long as Israel controls Gaza's borders, they remain the occupying power.

Can the goal of the Gaza blockade (whatever it may be) be applied to the West Bank? Why or why not?

WildCat · 7th January 2009, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by gdnp

As long as Israel controls Gaza's borders, they remain the occupying power.

Utter nonsense.

To occupy a place you have to, you know, occupy it.

Gaza has been Jew-free (ethnically cleansed) since 2005.

Tin Foil Timothy · 7th January 2009, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Utter nonsense.

To occupy a place you have to, you know, occupy it.

Gaza has been Jew-free (ethnically cleansed) since 2005.

Ok then they are the imprisoning power. just as bad.

gumboot · 7th January 2009, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by gdnp

So as long as Israel has not troops on the ground in Gaza, they can do whatever they want at the borders? Even cutting off all food, fuel, and medicine? I don't think so.

As long as Israel controls Gaza's borders, they remain the occupying power.

Israel control's Israel's side of the Israel-Gaza border. This shouldn't of any surprise to you. France controls the French side of the France-Germany border. The USA controls the American side of the USA-Canada border.

Controlling your own borders is very much the norm. When an entity you are at war with borders your state, the first peaceful solution is to close your border with that state. Look to North and South Korea as a perfect example.

Tin Foil Timothy · 7th January 2009, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

Israel control's Israel's side of the Israel-Gaza border. This shouldn't of any surprise to you. France controls the French side of the France-Germany border. The USA controls the American side of the USA-Canada border.

Controlling your own borders is very much the norm. When an entity you are at war with borders your state, the first peaceful solution is to close your border with that state. Look to North and South Korea as a perfect example.

Do you honestly expect anyone to take that seriously given the actual situation there?

Where Israel controls not only hte borders but the access from the sea and the airspace. israel is preventing enough supplies getting through to give the Gazans a decent standard of living and it's certinly restricting the flow of goods in order that the Gazans might build up any sort of economy that they might feed themselves.

Making such an analogy between the French-German Border, the American-Canadian border and the imprisonment of the Gazans by the Israelis is complete and utter nonsense. And by doing so you just make yourself look a fool.

No one is buying it!!

yairhol · 7th January 2009, 10:28 PM

Again proven that Israel is taking humanitarian actions to ease the pain that the Hamas are unleashing on the Palestinian people:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Internatio...6592570&page=1

A state at war with a close-to-being a state (Palestine) and Israel loads hundreds of trucks with food, medicine and other supplies for the needy Palestinians who get no support from their own government.

yairhol · 7th January 2009, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Do you honestly expect anyone to take that seriously given the actual situation there?

Where Israel controls not only hte borders but the access from the sea and the airspace. israel is preventing enough supplies getting through to give the Gazans a decent standard of living and it's certinly restricting the flow of goods in order that the Gazans might build up any sort of economy that they might feed themselves.

Making such an analogy between the French-German Border, the American-Canadian border and the imprisonment of the Gazans by the Israelis is complete and utter nonsense. And by doing so you just make yourself look a fool.

No one is buying it!!

Don't you wonder why the Egyptians are closing their border with the Palestinians as well? Probably something that Israel and Egypt know that you refuse to understand.

gumboot · 8th January 2009, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Where Israel controls not only hte borders but the access from the sea and the airspace. israel is preventing enough supplies getting through to give the Gazans a decent standard of living and it's certinly restricting the flow of goods in order that the Gazans might build up any sort of economy that they might feed themselves.

That's a pretty sensible thing for a country to do to a neighbour they are at war with.

Why do you keep ignoring this important point? Israel is at war with Palestine. Palestine is their enemy.

Why on earth should Israel help Palestine?

Seriously. Give me one reason.

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Making such an analogy between the French-German Border, the American-Canadian border and the imprisonment of the Gazans by the Israelis is complete and utter nonsense. And by doing so you just make yourself look a fool.

The complete and utter nonsense is your repeated claim that there's something odd about Israel controlling their own border. There isn't.

a_unique_person · 8th January 2009, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Utter nonsense.

To occupy a place you have to, you know, occupy it.

Gaza has been Jew-free (ethnically cleansed) since 2005.

As Sharon's advisor said, Gaza was 'placed in formaldehyde'. They may have removed the settlers, they didn't relinquish ultimate control.

Thunder · 8th January 2009, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by yairhol

Reports are starting to pour in that Israeli newspapers have been getting quite a big number of emails from Palestinians in Gaza pleading the Israeli government to continue with the operation and destroy the Hamas.
Some brave Palestinians have come up on radio talk shows and said that the Hamas are forcing the civilians to act as human shields. Other civilians are forced to become shahids or else their family members will be killed.

I don't believe that for one second and would like to see evidence.

Travis · 8th January 2009, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

Originally Posted by yairhol

Reports are starting to pour in that Israeli newspapers have been getting quite a big number of emails from Palestinians in Gaza pleading the Israeli government to continue with the operation and destroy the Hamas.
Some brave Palestinians have come up on radio talk shows and said that the Hamas are forcing the civilians to act as human shields. Other civilians are forced to become shahids or else their family members will be killed.

I don't believe that for one second and would like to see evidence.

I believe the bolded part. It fits in with an established MO for Islamic Radicals.

yairhol · 8th January 2009, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

I don't believe that for one second and would like to see evidence.

What you believe or don't believe is not important.
I already gave evidence.

gdnp · 8th January 2009, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by yairhol

Don't you wonder why the Egyptians are closing their border with the Palestinians as well? Probably something that Israel and Egypt know that you refuse to understand.

Is it a shock to you that Egypt favors Fatah over Iran-supported Hamas?

gdnp · 8th January 2009, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

That's a pretty sensible thing for a country to do to a neighbour they are at war with.

Why do you keep ignoring this important point? Israel is at war with Palestine. Palestine is their enemy.

Why on earth should Israel help Palestine?

Seriously. Give me one reason.

What is your definition of "help Palestine?" I don't recall anyone here calling for Israel to supply humanitarian supplies to the Palestinians. Only for them to stop blockading the delivery of humanitarian supplies to the Palestinians.

Quote:

The complete and utter nonsense is your repeated claim that there's something odd about Israel controlling their own border. There isn't.

Please, gumboot, this straw man is beneath you. The question is not Israel's right to control their border with Gaza. The question is whether Israel has the right to control what goes in (not enough) and what can come out (virtually nothing) of Gaza and simultaneously claim to not be an occupying power, regardless of whether these goods cross their border or not.

As was posted elsewhere (I think in this thread), the only legitimate use of a siege under the laws of war is to force the military capitulation of the enemy. Not to punish the civilian population for electing a government you don't like.

gdnp · 8th January 2009, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by yairhol

A state at war with a close-to-being a state (Palestine) and Israel loads hundreds of trucks with food, medicine and other supplies for the needy Palestinians who get no support from their own government.

Yes, why has Hamas not been shipping food, fuel, and medicine into Gaza? Or better yet, starting their own farms, building their own pharmaceutical factories, and drilling their own oil wells and building their own refineries? Why indeed?

Thunder · 8th January 2009, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by yairhol

What you believe or don't believe is not important.
I already gave evidence.

you have? where?

gumboot · 9th January 2009, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by gdnp

Please, gumboot, this straw man is beneath you. The question is not Israel's right to control their border with Gaza. The question is whether Israel has the right to control what goes in (not enough) and what can come out (virtually nothing) of Gaza and simultaneously claim to not be an occupying power, regardless of whether these goods cross their border or not.

"Controlling your border" and "controlling what crosses your border" are exactly the same thing. To suggest that controlling what crosses your own border constitutes "occupying" a state is essentially claiming that every single country in the world that borders another country is occupying that country.

I honestly cannot see why you find this so hard to grasp. Does the USA control what leaves the USA into Canada, and what leaves Canada into the USA? Yes.

Does that means the USA is occupying Canada? Absurd.

So, again, the question no one wants to answer:

"Why is it that Israel does not have a right to control their border with an enemy?"

Originally Posted by gdnp

As was posted elsewhere (I think in this thread), the only legitimate use of a siege under the laws of war is to force the military capitulation of the enemy. Not to punish the civilian population for electing a government you don't like.

I'd love you to cite that law. There's only two ways, in international law, that a blockade can be illegal:

1) If the blockade is a "paper blockade" that is not actually acted on, as established in the Congress of Paris, 1856
2) If the blockade is declared illegal by the United Nations Security Council under Chapter VII of the UN Charter

Given that neither of these has happened, the Israeli blockade of Gaza cannot be considered illegal.

(By the way, your use of the term "siege" is incorrect.

Stout · 9th January 2009, 06:27 AM

"

Quote:

Why is it that Israel does not have a right to control their border with an enemy?"

They do...It's the marine blockade that prevents anything form entering and leaving Gaza that I'm curious about. Seems that there's more to it than Israel simply wanting to control their own borders.

gdnp · 9th January 2009, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

"Controlling your border" and "controlling what crosses your border" are exactly the same thing. To suggest that controlling what crosses your own border constitutes "occupying" a state is essentially claiming that every single country in the world that borders another country is occupying that country.

I honestly cannot see why you find this so hard to grasp. Does the USA control what leaves the USA into Canada, and what leaves Canada into the USA? Yes.

Does that means the USA is occupying Canada? Absurd.

So, again, the question no one wants to answer:

"Why is it that Israel does not have a right to control their border with an enemy?"

Does Canada control what enters the US through California? No. thus Canada is not the occupying power for the US, even though they control their side of the US-Canadian border.

Now look at a map of Gaza. You will note that there is a Mediterranean coastline of roughly 30 km in length.

Since the time that Israel pulled their settlers and troops out of Gaza, they have maintained control over everything shipped in and out across the Gaza coastline. This is not Gaza's border with Israel: this is Gaza's border with international waters. Akin to the California coast. Yet if an international relief agency were to attempt to ship supplies into Gaza by sea, they would be stopped by Israeli warships. Not only now during the all-out war, but since the day Israel pulled out their troops. They have never, not once, relinquished control over the Gaza coastline, which (I repeat) is not a border with Israeli territory.

One last time (before I give up). Israel's control of their land border with the Gaza strip does not make them the occupying power. Israel's control of the Gaza coastline and airspace, which they have never relinquished, does.

gumboot · 9th January 2009, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Stout

"

They do...It's the marine blockade that prevents anything form entering and leaving Gaza that I'm curious about. Seems that there's more to it than Israel simply wanting to control their own borders.

Well Israel has been at war with Palestine since 2000, let's not forget. Which, incidentally, is when Israel shut down the West Bank-Gaza corridor and the Gaza Airport.

gumboot · 9th January 2009, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by gdnp

One last time (before I give up). Israel's control of their land border with the Gaza strip does not make them the occupying power. Israel's control of the Gaza coastline and airspace, which they have never relinquished, does.

The airspace and coastline is a separate issue, and I would consider it a military blockade, which given Israel has been at war with Palestine since 2000 (the beginning of the ongoing 2nd Intifada), I consider to be perfectly acceptable.

Irrespective of this, you are wrong. A blockade does not amount to an occupation. An occupation is a very specific legal military term.

Stout · 9th January 2009, 07:49 AM

Yet Israel withdrew their "occupation" of Palestine in 2005.

I'm just trying to get some sort of handle of what life as an "average" Palestinian is/was actually like. I mean, I've been in a few third world countries so people living in poverty is nothing new to me and I'm curious just as to how much life in Palestine "sucks" compared to a country like, say, Honduras.

Seems to me that the Palestinians "smartest" move would be to cast their lot with the Israelis and basically suck it up when it comes to separatist politics like "we want our own country" in favour of quality of life.

From what meager information I've been able to glean from the internet, ( eg. 70% of Palestinians have TV and radio in their households, 20% have home PCs ) I'm led to believe that maybe Palestine isn't the humanitarian "hell hole" that *some* people would have me believe.

Then there's the idea of the people of Palestine being used as pawns by extremist factions, like Hamas. Or are they an extremist faction by choice? Things I've been reading tell me that Israel assassinated all the moderates in Palestine and they ( The Israelis) have grand designs on keeping the Palestinians at each other's throats until they, presumably" kill each other off.

I have no issue with Israel doing what they're doing right now in Palestine, I think their methods of operation are designed to minimise civilian casualties ( otherwise they'd just carpet bomb the place ) but I'm wondering, as the ultra left is trying to convince me, if the people of Palestine really do have a "case" against the Israelis

gumboot · 9th January 2009, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Stout

I'm just trying to get some sort of handle of what life as an "average" Palestinian is/was actually like. I mean, I've been in a few third world countries so people living in poverty is nothing new to me and I'm curious just as to how much life in Palestine "sucks" compared to a country like, say, Honduras.

I imagine it sucks, but the degree of suck probably varies over time. Right now it sucks big time.

Originally Posted by Stout

Seems to me that the Palestinians "smartest" move would be to cast their lot with the Israelis and basically suck it up when it comes to separatist politics like "we want our own country" in favour of quality of life.

I agree. If nothing else, Israel has demonstrated an ability to run a functioning society, which Palestine has not. Actually, I find Israel's success pretty impressive. Israel has something many of us forget - that is a substantial minority who could potentially cause major problems. 1 in 5 Israelis is an Arab. They don't seem to be causing any major problems for Israel, and I haven't seen much evidence of violent oppression by the Jewish majority. To go from blind hatred to peaceful co-existence in 60 years is pretty damn impressive. Consider the track record of the United States with its black population, which is only about half the percentage of Arab Israelis.

Originally Posted by Stout

From what meager information I've been able to glean from the internet, ( eg. 70% of Palestinians have TV and radio in their households, 20% have home PCs ) I'm led to believe that maybe Palestine isn't the humanitarian "hell hole" that *some* people would have me believe.

To be fair, it's possible that it was once not a hell hole, but now is. The ICRC was reporting a family who starved to death, or something. I get the impression the situation there has deteriorated dramatically since the beginning of the 2nd Intifada.

Originally Posted by Stout

Then there's the idea of the people of Palestine being used as pawns by extremist factions, like Hamas. Or are they an extremist faction by choice?

I think it's a bit of both. We have to remember that Palestine has always been ruled by extremist factions, and these factions controlled the schools. If children are being raised from infants in Palestine to hate Israel, to hate Jews, and to celebrate in Jihad, can you consider their inevitable support of extremists as voluntary? The Palestinians are victims of 60 years of brain washing, and their behaviour, given this, is unsurprising. In all seriousness what is desperately needed is for Palestine to be opened up, taken over by the International Community for several decades, and Islamic Fundamentalism brutally stamped out. Something akin to the De-nazification of Germany is needed. A whole generation of Germans were raised on Nazi ideology, but they were successfully weaned off their hate after the war. The same can happen here, but only if Palestine is given over to control of someone other than the hate-mongers.

Originally Posted by Stout

I have no issue with Israel doing what they're doing right now in Palestine, I think their methods of operation are designed to minimise civilian casualties ( otherwise they'd just carpet bomb the place ) but I'm wondering, as the ultra left is trying to convince me, if the people of Palestine really do have a "case" against the Israelis

I think it's quite sad that there's this inherent notion of sides. The absolute victims of this mess are indeed the Palestinians. I have no doubt of this. There's no way Israel's suffering compares. But the mistake is to assume that Israel is at fault. It's Palestine that is at fault. The leaders, over 60 years, have destroyed their own people in their efforts to push through a murderous agenda.

There are currently about 80,000 troops deployed on UN missions around the world, with that figure set to rise to over 95,000 once the full UN force is deployed to Darfur. I see no reason why Palestine should not be put under UN control.

a_unique_person · 10th January 2009, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

There are currently about 80,000 troops deployed on UN missions around the world, with that figure set to rise to over 95,000 once the full UN force is deployed to Darfur. I see no reason why Palestine should not be put under UN control.

Abbas is calling for UN observers to be brought in, and has done so before. It is Israel that doesn't want them.

gumboot · 10th January 2009, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Abbas is calling for UN observers to be brought in, and has done so before. It is Israel that doesn't want them.

I don't blame them. UN observers are worse than useless. They need peacekeepers with robust ROE.

Thunder · 10th January 2009, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Abbas is calling for UN observers to be brought in, and has done so before. It is Israel that doesn't want them.

Don't you realize that ALL UN observers are Nazi-sympathizing anti-Semites??

=)

gumboot · 10th January 2009, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

Don't you realize that ALL UN observers are Nazi-sympathizing anti-Semites??

=)

During the 2006 Lebanon War UN observers publicly issued reports on current Israeli troop movements while failing to provide any information about Hizbollah troop movements, in blatant violation of the UN's impartiality and neutrality. I cannot blame Israel for wanting nothing to do with them. UNMOs are a joke, and anyone who thinks deploying UNMOs is a serious effort for resolution by the international community is deluded.

a_unique_person · 10th January 2009, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

During the 2006 Lebanon War UN observers publicly issued reports on current Israeli troop movements while failing to provide any information about Hizbollah troop movements, in blatant violation of the UN's impartiality and neutrality. I cannot blame Israel for wanting nothing to do with them. UNMOs are a joke, and anyone who thinks deploying UNMOs is a serious effort for resolution by the international community is deluded.

Quote:

On July 25, there were 14 recorded events of artillery shelling of the UN OP, in so doing, approximately at 19:15 a 155-mm shell directly hit the wall of the OP shelter but the wall proved to be strong enough, and the UNMOs had a chance to advise the Naqura HQ on the fire. However, at 19:30 an aerial bomb pierced the shelter roof and exploded inside. All UNMOs were killed instantly, and the OP was smashed.

Taking into account the types of bombs used by the Israeli combat aircraft, their damage radius, intensity of bombardments as well as the fact that the aerial bombs always have deviation of up to 1000 meters if dropped from about 5 kilometers, we may come to a conclusion that the bombardment of the UN OP location was intentional.

Some joke.

http://www.peacekeeper.ru/en/index.php?mid=2186

gumboot · 10th January 2009, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Some joke.

http://www.peacekeeper.ru/en/index.php?mid=2186

And yet the actual peacekeepers on the ground at the time claim that Hizbollah were operating in the area on a regular basis. The joke is that the UN kept their UNMOs there after the war had started.

Email sent by the Canadian peacekeeper who was killed in the strike:

Quote:

What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.

CTV

Commenting on the implication of those words, a retired Canadian general:

Quote:

Those words, particularly the last sentence, are not-so-veiled language indicating Israeli strikes were aimed at Hezbollah targets near the post, said Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie.

"What that means is, in plain English, 'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.

That would mean Hezbollah was purposely setting up near the UN post, he added. It's a tactic Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie, who was the first UN commander in Sarajevo during the Bosnia civil war, said he's seen in past international missions: Aside from UN posts, fighters would set up near hospitals, mosques and orphanages.

The Ottawa Citizen

This is confirmed by Squadron Leader Andrew Greig, a New Zealander, who was supposed to be at the post at the time of the air strike, but could not get there due to the intensity of fire between Hizbollah and the IDF at the time.

5th January 2009, 11:39 PM	#121
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,688	Originally Posted by Slayhamlet Well, it's one of the largest per capita. Is this a serious point? The world must be in terror of the Eritrean and Transnistrian armies then.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

5th January 2009, 11:56 PM	#122
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by lionking Is this a serious point? The world must be in terror of the Eritrean and Transnistrian armies then. Not to mention Sealand's armed forces, which, according to my understanding, normally constitute 100% of the resident population (since only the "Sealand Guard" normally live there).
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

6th January 2009, 12:20 AM	#123
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,688	Originally Posted by gumboot Not to mention Sealand's armed forces, which, according to my understanding, normally constitute 100% of the resident population (since only the "Sealand Guard" normally live there). Thanks gumboot. Any country attacking Sealand would be absolutely crapping itself up against the largest per capita army in the world.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

6th January 2009, 01:20 AM	#125
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,688	Originally Posted by Slayhamlet No, I was being sardonic. I thought the context would have made that obvious. Guess not. Don't really see how this little tangent matters much, anyway. Israel's military is among the most advanced in the world. Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

6th January 2009, 03:28 AM	#126
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Originally Posted by Slayhamlet Okay. Can we actually see these reports? Here's one I found from the radio station 103 FM but it's in Hebrew. http://www.103.fm/programs/event.asp...K&c41t4nzVq=JK
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

6th January 2009, 01:00 AM	#124
Slayhamlet Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,427	Originally Posted by lionking Is this a serious point? The world must be in terror of the Eritrean and Transnistrian armies then. No, I was being sardonic. I thought the context would have made that obvious. Guess not. Don't really see how this little tangent matters much, anyway. Israel's military is among the most advanced in the world.

6th January 2009, 08:35 PM	#127
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by Slayhamlet No, I was being sardonic. I thought the context would have made that obvious. Guess not. Don't really see how this little tangent matters much, anyway. Israel's military is among the most advanced in the world. I've been told before by people that know, that the only reason the IDF look any good is because their opposition is so bad. Against any other modern western army they would be annihilated. I have seen some videos of their military operations that support this position, however this observation was made quite a few years ago, and may now be wrong.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

6th January 2009, 08:44 PM	#128
Texas Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,847	Originally Posted by gumboot I've been told before by people that know, that the only reason the IDF look any good is because their opposition is so bad. Against any other modern western army they would be annihilated. I have seen some videos of their military operations that support this position, however this observation was made quite a few years ago, and may now be wrong. They are the best in the Middle East but that isn't saying a lot. There appears to have been a bit of myth making when it comes to the Israeli military which has served it well over the years. That suffered a bit in 2006 in Lebanon and if it doesn't gain a clear victory in Gaza it will suffer even more so. That is extremely dangerous for Israel since the surrounding nations and especially Iran are watching very closely.
Texas Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,847

6th January 2009, 09:50 PM	#129
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,114	I would imagine the armies and terrorist groups that have been beaten by the IDF would have an incentive to over emphasise the IDF's qualities.

6th January 2009, 11:01 PM	#130
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,960	The IDF does have a lot of experience, which is invaluable, especially in urban operations.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

7th January 2009, 11:00 AM	#131
gdnp useless idiot Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Jersey-You gotta problem wit dat? Posts: 4,999	Originally Posted by gumboot Given that Palestinians are not in the hands of Israel, as Israel was not occupying Gaza, but are in fact in the hands of Palestine, of whom they are nationals, it is impossible for Israel to conduct Collective Punishment against Palestinians. So as long as Israel has not troops on the ground in Gaza, they can do whatever they want at the borders? Even cutting off all food, fuel, and medicine? I don't think so. As long as Israel controls Gaza's borders, they remain the occupying power.

7th January 2009, 02:26 PM	#132
IDB87 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the Grass Posts: 3,416	Originally Posted by gdnp Even cutting off all food, fuel, and medicine? I don't think so. I thought Gaza receieved 'the bare minimum'? Make up my mind please. Quote: As long as Israel controls Gaza's borders, they remain the occupying power. Can the goal of the Gaza blockade (whatever it may be) be applied to the West Bank? Why or why not?

7th January 2009, 02:33 PM	#133
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,128	Originally Posted by gdnp As long as Israel controls Gaza's borders, they remain the occupying power. Utter nonsense. To occupy a place you have to, you know, occupy it. Gaza has been Jew-free (ethnically cleansed) since 2005.

7th January 2009, 03:34 PM	#134
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089	Originally Posted by WildCat Utter nonsense. To occupy a place you have to, you know, occupy it. Gaza has been Jew-free (ethnically cleansed) since 2005. Ok then they are the imprisoning power. just as bad.
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089

7th January 2009, 03:38 PM	#135
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by gdnp So as long as Israel has not troops on the ground in Gaza, they can do whatever they want at the borders? Even cutting off all food, fuel, and medicine? I don't think so. As long as Israel controls Gaza's borders, they remain the occupying power. Israel control's Israel's side of the Israel-Gaza border. This shouldn't of any surprise to you. France controls the French side of the France-Germany border. The USA controls the American side of the USA-Canada border. Controlling your own borders is very much the norm. When an entity you are at war with borders your state, the first peaceful solution is to close your border with that state. Look to North and South Korea as a perfect example.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

7th January 2009, 10:09 PM	#136
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089	Originally Posted by gumboot Israel control's Israel's side of the Israel-Gaza border. This shouldn't of any surprise to you. France controls the French side of the France-Germany border. The USA controls the American side of the USA-Canada border. Controlling your own borders is very much the norm. When an entity you are at war with borders your state, the first peaceful solution is to close your border with that state. Look to North and South Korea as a perfect example. Do you honestly expect anyone to take that seriously given the actual situation there? Where Israel controls not only hte borders but the access from the sea and the airspace. israel is preventing enough supplies getting through to give the Gazans a decent standard of living and it's certinly restricting the flow of goods in order that the Gazans might build up any sort of economy that they might feed themselves. Making such an analogy between the French-German Border, the American-Canadian border and the imprisonment of the Gazans by the Israelis is complete and utter nonsense. And by doing so you just make yourself look a fool. No one is buying it!!
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089

7th January 2009, 10:28 PM	#137
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Again proven that Israel is taking humanitarian actions to ease the pain that the Hamas are unleashing on the Palestinian people: http://www.abcnews.go.com/Internatio...6592570&page=1 A state at war with a close-to-being a state (Palestine) and Israel loads hundreds of trucks with food, medicine and other supplies for the needy Palestinians who get no support from their own government.
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

7th January 2009, 10:30 PM	#138
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy Do you honestly expect anyone to take that seriously given the actual situation there? Where Israel controls not only hte borders but the access from the sea and the airspace. israel is preventing enough supplies getting through to give the Gazans a decent standard of living and it's certinly restricting the flow of goods in order that the Gazans might build up any sort of economy that they might feed themselves. Making such an analogy between the French-German Border, the American-Canadian border and the imprisonment of the Gazans by the Israelis is complete and utter nonsense. And by doing so you just make yourself look a fool. No one is buying it!! Don't you wonder why the Egyptians are closing their border with the Palestinians as well? Probably something that Israel and Egypt know that you refuse to understand.
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

8th January 2009, 12:28 AM	#139
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy Where Israel controls not only hte borders but the access from the sea and the airspace. israel is preventing enough supplies getting through to give the Gazans a decent standard of living and it's certinly restricting the flow of goods in order that the Gazans might build up any sort of economy that they might feed themselves. That's a pretty sensible thing for a country to do to a neighbour they are at war with. Why do you keep ignoring this important point? Israel is at war with Palestine. Palestine is their enemy. Why on earth should Israel help Palestine? Seriously. Give me one reason. Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy Making such an analogy between the French-German Border, the American-Canadian border and the imprisonment of the Gazans by the Israelis is complete and utter nonsense. And by doing so you just make yourself look a fool. The complete and utter nonsense is your repeated claim that there's something odd about Israel controlling their own border. There isn't.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

8th January 2009, 01:07 AM	#140
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,341	Originally Posted by WildCat Utter nonsense. To occupy a place you have to, you know, occupy it. Gaza has been Jew-free (ethnically cleansed) since 2005. As Sharon's advisor said, Gaza was 'placed in formaldehyde'. They may have removed the settlers, they didn't relinquish ultimate control.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

8th January 2009, 02:40 AM	#141
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by yairhol Reports are starting to pour in that Israeli newspapers have been getting quite a big number of emails from Palestinians in Gaza pleading the Israeli government to continue with the operation and destroy the Hamas. Some brave Palestinians have come up on radio talk shows and said that the Hamas are forcing the civilians to act as human shields. Other civilians are forced to become shahids or else their family members will be killed. I don't believe that for one second and would like to see evidence.

8th January 2009, 04:01 AM	#142
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,960	Originally Posted by parky76 Originally Posted by yairhol Reports are starting to pour in that Israeli newspapers have been getting quite a big number of emails from Palestinians in Gaza pleading the Israeli government to continue with the operation and destroy the Hamas. Some brave Palestinians have come up on radio talk shows and said that the Hamas are forcing the civilians to act as human shields. Other civilians are forced to become shahids or else their family members will be killed. I don't believe that for one second and would like to see evidence. I believe the bolded part. It fits in with an established MO for Islamic Radicals.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

8th January 2009, 04:34 AM	#143
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Originally Posted by parky76 I don't believe that for one second and would like to see evidence. What you believe or don't believe is not important. I already gave evidence.
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Last edited by yairhol; 8th January 2009 at 04:35 AM.

8th January 2009, 04:31 PM	#144
gdnp useless idiot Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Jersey-You gotta problem wit dat? Posts: 4,999	Originally Posted by yairhol Don't you wonder why the Egyptians are closing their border with the Palestinians as well? Probably something that Israel and Egypt know that you refuse to understand. Is it a shock to you that Egypt favors Fatah over Iran-supported Hamas?

8th January 2009, 04:41 PM	#145
gdnp useless idiot Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Jersey-You gotta problem wit dat? Posts: 4,999	Originally Posted by gumboot That's a pretty sensible thing for a country to do to a neighbour they are at war with. Why do you keep ignoring this important point? Israel is at war with Palestine. Palestine is their enemy. Why on earth should Israel help Palestine? Seriously. Give me one reason. What is your definition of "help Palestine?" I don't recall anyone here calling for Israel to supply humanitarian supplies to the Palestinians. Only for them to stop blockading the delivery of humanitarian supplies to the Palestinians. Quote: The complete and utter nonsense is your repeated claim that there's something odd about Israel controlling their own border. There isn't. Please, gumboot, this straw man is beneath you. The question is not Israel's right to control their border with Gaza. The question is whether Israel has the right to control what goes in (not enough) and what can come out (virtually nothing) of Gaza and simultaneously claim to not be an occupying power, regardless of whether these goods cross their border or not. As was posted elsewhere (I think in this thread), the only legitimate use of a siege under the laws of war is to force the military capitulation of the enemy. Not to punish the civilian population for electing a government you don't like.

8th January 2009, 04:46 PM	#146
gdnp useless idiot Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Jersey-You gotta problem wit dat? Posts: 4,999	Originally Posted by yairhol A state at war with a close-to-being a state (Palestine) and Israel loads hundreds of trucks with food, medicine and other supplies for the needy Palestinians who get no support from their own government. Yes, why has Hamas not been shipping food, fuel, and medicine into Gaza? Or better yet, starting their own farms, building their own pharmaceutical factories, and drilling their own oil wells and building their own refineries? Why indeed?

8th January 2009, 04:51 PM	#147
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by yairhol What you believe or don't believe is not important. I already gave evidence. you have? where?

9th January 2009, 06:05 AM	#148
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by gdnp Please, gumboot, this straw man is beneath you. The question is not Israel's right to control their border with Gaza. The question is whether Israel has the right to control what goes in (not enough) and what can come out (virtually nothing) of Gaza and simultaneously claim to not be an occupying power, regardless of whether these goods cross their border or not. "Controlling your border" and "controlling what crosses your border" are exactly the same thing. To suggest that controlling what crosses your own border constitutes "occupying" a state is essentially claiming that every single country in the world that borders another country is occupying that country. I honestly cannot see why you find this so hard to grasp. Does the USA control what leaves the USA into Canada, and what leaves Canada into the USA? Yes. Does that means the USA is occupying Canada? Absurd. So, again, the question no one wants to answer: "Why is it that Israel does not have a right to control their border with an enemy?" Originally Posted by gdnp As was posted elsewhere (I think in this thread), the only legitimate use of a siege under the laws of war is to force the military capitulation of the enemy. Not to punish the civilian population for electing a government you don't like. I'd love you to cite that law. There's only two ways, in international law, that a blockade can be illegal: 1) If the blockade is a "paper blockade" that is not actually acted on, as established in the Congress of Paris, 1856 2) If the blockade is declared illegal by the United Nations Security Council under Chapter VII of the UN Charter Given that neither of these has happened, the Israeli blockade of Gaza cannot be considered illegal. (By the way, your use of the term "siege" is incorrect.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

9th January 2009, 06:27 AM	#149
Stout Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 1,990	" Quote: Why is it that Israel does not have a right to control their border with an enemy?" They do...It's the marine blockade that prevents anything form entering and leaving Gaza that I'm curious about. Seems that there's more to it than Israel simply wanting to control their own borders.

9th January 2009, 06:41 AM	#150
gdnp useless idiot Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Jersey-You gotta problem wit dat? Posts: 4,999	Originally Posted by gumboot "Controlling your border" and "controlling what crosses your border" are exactly the same thing. To suggest that controlling what crosses your own border constitutes "occupying" a state is essentially claiming that every single country in the world that borders another country is occupying that country. I honestly cannot see why you find this so hard to grasp. Does the USA control what leaves the USA into Canada, and what leaves Canada into the USA? Yes. Does that means the USA is occupying Canada? Absurd. So, again, the question no one wants to answer: "Why is it that Israel does not have a right to control their border with an enemy?" Does Canada control what enters the US through California? No. thus Canada is not the occupying power for the US, even though they control their side of the US-Canadian border. Now look at a map of Gaza. You will note that there is a Mediterranean coastline of roughly 30 km in length. Since the time that Israel pulled their settlers and troops out of Gaza, they have maintained control over everything shipped in and out across the Gaza coastline. This is not Gaza's border with Israel: this is Gaza's border with international waters. Akin to the California coast. Yet if an international relief agency were to attempt to ship supplies into Gaza by sea, they would be stopped by Israeli warships. Not only now during the all-out war, but since the day Israel pulled out their troops. They have never, not once, relinquished control over the Gaza coastline, which (I repeat) is not a border with Israeli territory. One last time (before I give up). Israel's control of their land border with the Gaza strip does not make them the occupying power. Israel's control of the Gaza coastline and airspace, which they have never relinquished, does.

9th January 2009, 06:52 AM	#151
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by Stout " They do...It's the marine blockade that prevents anything form entering and leaving Gaza that I'm curious about. Seems that there's more to it than Israel simply wanting to control their own borders. Well Israel has been at war with Palestine since 2000, let's not forget. Which, incidentally, is when Israel shut down the West Bank-Gaza corridor and the Gaza Airport.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

9th January 2009, 07:22 AM	#152
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by gdnp One last time (before I give up). Israel's control of their land border with the Gaza strip does not make them the occupying power. Israel's control of the Gaza coastline and airspace, which they have never relinquished, does. The airspace and coastline is a separate issue, and I would consider it a military blockade, which given Israel has been at war with Palestine since 2000 (the beginning of the ongoing 2nd Intifada), I consider to be perfectly acceptable. Irrespective of this, you are wrong. A blockade does not amount to an occupation. An occupation is a very specific legal military term.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

9th January 2009, 07:49 AM	#153
Stout Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 1,990	Yet Israel withdrew their "occupation" of Palestine in 2005. I'm just trying to get some sort of handle of what life as an "average" Palestinian is/was actually like. I mean, I've been in a few third world countries so people living in poverty is nothing new to me and I'm curious just as to how much life in Palestine "sucks" compared to a country like, say, Honduras. Seems to me that the Palestinians "smartest" move would be to cast their lot with the Israelis and basically suck it up when it comes to separatist politics like "we want our own country" in favour of quality of life. From what meager information I've been able to glean from the internet, ( eg. 70% of Palestinians have TV and radio in their households, 20% have home PCs ) I'm led to believe that maybe Palestine isn't the humanitarian "hell hole" that some people would have me believe. Then there's the idea of the people of Palestine being used as pawns by extremist factions, like Hamas. Or are they an extremist faction by choice? Things I've been reading tell me that Israel assassinated all the moderates in Palestine and they ( The Israelis) have grand designs on keeping the Palestinians at each other's throats until they, presumably" kill each other off. I have no issue with Israel doing what they're doing right now in Palestine, I think their methods of operation are designed to minimise civilian casualties ( otherwise they'd just carpet bomb the place ) but I'm wondering, as the ultra left is trying to convince me, if the people of Palestine really do have a "case" against the Israelis

9th January 2009, 03:05 PM	#154
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Originally Posted by Stout I'm just trying to get some sort of handle of what life as an "average" Palestinian is/was actually like. I mean, I've been in a few third world countries so people living in poverty is nothing new to me and I'm curious just as to how much life in Palestine "sucks" compared to a country like, say, Honduras. I imagine it sucks, but the degree of suck probably varies over time. Right now it sucks big time. Originally Posted by Stout Seems to me that the Palestinians "smartest" move would be to cast their lot with the Israelis and basically suck it up when it comes to separatist politics like "we want our own country" in favour of quality of life. I agree. If nothing else, Israel has demonstrated an ability to run a functioning society, which Palestine has not. Actually, I find Israel's success pretty impressive. Israel has something many of us forget - that is a substantial minority who could potentially cause major problems. 1 in 5 Israelis is an Arab. They don't seem to be causing any major problems for Israel, and I haven't seen much evidence of violent oppression by the Jewish majority. To go from blind hatred to peaceful co-existence in 60 years is pretty damn impressive. Consider the track record of the United States with its black population, which is only about half the percentage of Arab Israelis. Originally Posted by Stout From what meager information I've been able to glean from the internet, ( eg. 70% of Palestinians have TV and radio in their households, 20% have home PCs ) I'm led to believe that maybe Palestine isn't the humanitarian "hell hole" that some people would have me believe. To be fair, it's possible that it was once not a hell hole, but now is. The ICRC was reporting a family who starved to death, or something. I get the impression the situation there has deteriorated dramatically since the beginning of the 2nd Intifada. Originally Posted by Stout Then there's the idea of the people of Palestine being used as pawns by extremist factions, like Hamas. Or are they an extremist faction by choice? I think it's a bit of both. We have to remember that Palestine has always been ruled by extremist factions, and these factions controlled the schools. If children are being raised from infants in Palestine to hate Israel, to hate Jews, and to celebrate in Jihad, can you consider their inevitable support of extremists as voluntary? The Palestinians are victims of 60 years of brain washing, and their behaviour, given this, is unsurprising. In all seriousness what is desperately needed is for Palestine to be opened up, taken over by the International Community for several decades, and Islamic Fundamentalism brutally stamped out. Something akin to the De-nazification of Germany is needed. A whole generation of Germans were raised on Nazi ideology, but they were successfully weaned off their hate after the war. The same can happen here, but only if Palestine is given over to control of someone other than the hate-mongers. Originally Posted by Stout I have no issue with Israel doing what they're doing right now in Palestine, I think their methods of operation are designed to minimise civilian casualties ( otherwise they'd just carpet bomb the place ) but I'm wondering, as the ultra left is trying to convince me, if the people of Palestine really do have a "case" against the Israelis I think it's quite sad that there's this inherent notion of sides. The absolute victims of this mess are indeed the Palestinians. I have no doubt of this. There's no way Israel's suffering compares. But the mistake is to assume that Israel is at fault. It's Palestine that is at fault. The leaders, over 60 years, have destroyed their own people in their efforts to push through a murderous agenda. There are currently about 80,000 troops deployed on UN missions around the world, with that figure set to rise to over 95,000 once the full UN force is deployed to Darfur. I see no reason why Palestine should not be put under UN control.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

10th January 2009, 04:19 PM	#155
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,341	Originally Posted by gumboot There are currently about 80,000 troops deployed on UN missions around the world, with that figure set to rise to over 95,000 once the full UN force is deployed to Darfur. I see no reason why Palestine should not be put under UN control. Abbas is calling for UN observers to be brought in, and has done so before. It is Israel that doesn't want them.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes