Pope concerned about "psuedo-mystics"

jimtron · 14th January 2009, 08:57 PM

From this Telegraph article, yet another doozy from the Pope:

Quote:

The Pope has ordered thorough investigations to be carried out into people who claim they have seen visions of the Virgin Mary...
He is hoping to cut down on an explosion in the number of bogus heavenly apparitions with new guidelines to help his bishops to root out frauds.
Benedict XVI plans to publish criteria to help them to distinguish between true and false claims of visions of Jesus and the Virgin Mary, messages, stigmata, weeping and bleeding statues and Eucharistic miracles...The Pope is said to be deeply concerned by the explosion in the number of pseudo-mystics who, claiming a direct line to God, set themselves against the bishops and lure the Catholic faithful out of the Church and into disobedient cults.

Pseudo-mystics who claim a direct line to God--sounds oddly familiar, doesn't it?

slingblade · 14th January 2009, 09:32 PM

There can be only one.

Well, none.

DeusPhasmatis · 14th January 2009, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by slingblade

There can be only one.

Well, none.

No-lander?

slingblade · 14th January 2009, 09:41 PM

As long as it's not Zoolander...

temporalillusion · 14th January 2009, 09:47 PM

A cool hat can add legitimacy.

Lord Emsworth · 14th January 2009, 09:49 PM

It is totally amazing ... and strangely alluring ... with what kind of garbage some people can get away with.

jimtron · 14th January 2009, 09:57 PM

They will use exorcists (among others) to determine if the visions are legit or not. It really freaks me out that the Vatican still advocates exorcisms.

KingMerv00 · 14th January 2009, 11:57 PM

Wait, I forgot. Which one is the Pope again?

dafydd · 15th January 2009, 04:23 AM

Here is an article from The Daily Telegraph.

'"According to Petrus, an Italian online magazine which leans towards conservative elements in the Vatican, anyone who claims to have seen an apparition will only be believed as long as they remain silent and do not court publicity over their claims. If they refuse to obey, this will be taken as a sign that their claims are false.

The visionaries will then be visited by a team of psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics, to certify their mental health while theologians will assess the content of any heavenly messages to see if they contravene Church teachings.

If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful.

Guidelines for the approval of apparitions and revelations were last issued in 1978. They lay down that a diocesan bishop can "either on his own initiative or at the request of the faithful" choose to investigate an alleged apparition. He then submits a report to the Vatican for approval."

ParrotPirate · 15th January 2009, 04:50 AM

Why anybody would take an old guy in a silly hat and a dress seriously is beyond me.

JFrankA · 15th January 2009, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by ParrotPirate

Why anybody would take an old guy in a silly hat and a dress seriously is beyond me.

welll......you know that hat was designed for a rabbit.....

(gotta love South Park)

Beerina · 15th January 2009, 07:02 AM

Would Da Papa be interested in providing scientific criteria to separate pseudo-mystics from the real ones?

I'll hold my breath!

Dancing David · 17th January 2009, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by JFrankA

welll......you know that hat was designed for a rabbit.....

(gotta love South Park)

Peter rabbit, upon this rock shall I found my church.

Sanctum Peter Cotium
Deus ri hunnam
hippitus hoppitus reus domine

In suus via torreium
Lepis en ei sanctum
hippitus hoppitus reus domine

CFLarsen · 17th January 2009, 07:44 AM

The Devil Within - Exorcism in the United States

IasonOuabache · 17th January 2009, 07:55 AM

Hold on. I got go out and buy a new irony meter.

hgc · 17th January 2009, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Here is an article from The Daily Telegraph.

'"According to Petrus, an Italian online magazine which leans towards conservative elements in the Vatican, anyone who claims to have seen an apparition will only be believed as long as they remain silent and do not court publicity over their claims. If they refuse to obey, this will be taken as a sign that their claims are false.

In other words: The Truth is the exclusive domain of the church.

This article is a treasure trove of asshattery.

Quote:

The visionaries will then be visited by a team of psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics, to certify their mental health while theologians will assess the content of any heavenly messages to see if they contravene Church teachings.

"...psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics.." Are all non-Catholics atheists? Or are they really saying that non-Catholic believers are excluded?

Quote:

If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful.

I'm just thrilled to find out that a possible future career path is demonologist.

Quote:

Guidelines for the approval of apparitions and revelations were last issued in 1978. They lay down that a diocesan bishop can "either on his own initiative or at the request of the faithful" choose to investigate an alleged apparition. He then submits a report to the Vatican for approval."

Didn't the Ghost Busters have a problem of not being properly licensed? This is how you go about getting the seal of approval.

geni · 17th January 2009, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Would Da Papa be interested in providing scientific criteria to separate pseudo-mystics from the real ones?

I'll hold my breath!

Well the process involves psychiatrists so it could be rather tricky.

geni · 17th January 2009, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by hgc

In other words: The Truth is the exclusive domain of the church.

Well some of the truth yes that is kinda the point.

Quote:

"...psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics.." Are all non-Catholics atheists? Or are they really saying that non-Catholic believers are excluded?

Or could be poor wording. No real benifit in haveing someone heavily into say eastern orthodox involved. Would depend on what the original italian/latin says but could well be looking to indicate secular rather than atheist.

DeusPhasmatis · 17th January 2009, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by hgc

Are all non-Catholics atheists?

Yes. See, they're using the old Greek definition, wherein anyone who doesn't believe in their god is an atheist. Socrates was called an atheist because he asked questions (despite professing belief in the Greek gods).

cj.23 · 17th January 2009, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by jimtron

Pseudo-mystics who claim a direct line to God--sounds oddly familiar, doesn't it?

I'm no fan of the Pope, but I can see where he is coming from. I am a fan of institutionalized religion, as opposed to personal revelation based stuff and cults. Sure, it all sounds happy, hippy and fun, but in my limited experience and understanding that is where the really nasty **** goes down, not in say the Methodists or RC. Sure we get child molesting catholic priests - like we get child molesting high school teachers - the difference (and utter evil) is if an institutional cover up was carried out -- but we don't get mass suicides or some of the really unpleasant stuff some of the New Religious Movements seem to use against renegade members.

Next problem is theological. Personal mystical revelation in Christianity has a ssytem of checks and balances attached - against reason, against Scripture, against the traditions of the Church. Many mystics are clearly loopy, or heretical - so the Pope is just maintaining his usual control over what he defines as legitimate doctrine. It's what Popes do...

cj x

joobz · 17th January 2009, 12:08 PM

From a power point of view, he had to cut down on it.
I mean, why is god/mary/jesus appearing to everyone BUT the pope?

cj.23 · 17th January 2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by joobz

From a power point of view, he had to cut down on it.
I mean, why is god/mary/jesus appearing to everyone BUT the pope?

Ah well maybe he is the Antipope?
SOUND _ YOU TUBE link
http://uk.youtube.com/watch.php?v=09o56AnTq1I

cj x

Lord Emsworth · 17th January 2009, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by hgc

"...psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics.." Are all non-Catholics atheists? Or are they really saying that non-Catholic believers are excluded?

In Italy I think it holds true that either you're a Catholic or an atheist (if understood as unbelivers in a wider sense). To a very high degree at at least. Not sure if that explains it though.

jimtron · 17th January 2009, 04:23 PM

cj23 said:

Quote:

I am a fan of institutionalized religion, as opposed to personal revelation based stuff and cults.

What's the advantage of institutionalized beliefs vs personal ones? To me they're both dubious, but with an institution there's a lot more politics, and you don't know whether church members are sincere or only in it for the money and power. If personal, at least there's less politics and filters and stuff. Also, with personal religious belief, I think that folks are more likely to keep it to themselves.

biomorph · 18th January 2009, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by joobz

<snip>
I mean, why is god/mary/jesus appearing to everyone BUT the pope?

Well, if he sez you can't go public with it, and if you do it's probably false, then keeping your mouth shut means you're getting the real deal.

Therefore he must get the visions, but has kept mum.

Hang on that makes no sense either, which makes sense.

Somehow......

Beerina · 18th January 2009, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by jimtron

cj23 said:

What's the advantage of institutionalized beliefs vs personal ones? To me they're both dubious, but with an institution there's a lot more politics, and you don't know whether church members are sincere or only in it for the money and power. If personal, at least there's less politics and filters and stuff. Also, with personal religious belief, I think that folks are more likely to keep it to themselves.

It's memespace evolution. Child memes, tired of being stomped out, adopted a "you can do it yourself" attitude. This allowed it to spread more rapidly and avoid stompage, rationale for stompage being a key component of the institutionalized memes.

This "mutation" worked.

shawmutt · 18th January 2009, 03:43 PM

pseudo-mystics as opposed to...

hgc · 18th January 2009, 05:59 PM

All you need to know about pseudo-mysticism can be found by example in Padre Pio and Josemaría Escrivá, both cananoized by the RC church in recent years -- in Pope JP 2's munificent saint factory.

14th January 2009, 08:57 PM	#1
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,966	Pope concerned about "psuedo-mystics" From this Telegraph article, yet another doozy from the Pope: Quote: The Pope has ordered thorough investigations to be carried out into people who claim they have seen visions of the Virgin Mary... He is hoping to cut down on an explosion in the number of bogus heavenly apparitions with new guidelines to help his bishops to root out frauds. Benedict XVI plans to publish criteria to help them to distinguish between true and false claims of visions of Jesus and the Virgin Mary, messages, stigmata, weeping and bleeding statues and Eucharistic miracles...The Pope is said to be deeply concerned by the explosion in the number of pseudo-mystics who, claiming a direct line to God, set themselves against the bishops and lure the Catholic faithful out of the Church and into disobedient cults. Pseudo-mystics who claim a direct line to God--sounds oddly familiar, doesn't it?
	__________________

14th January 2009, 09:32 PM	#2
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	There can be only one. Well, none.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

14th January 2009, 09:37 PM	#3
DeusPhasmatis Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 293	Originally Posted by slingblade There can be only one. Well, none. No-lander?
	__________________ "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." "Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking." -John Maynard Keynes I'm an evangelical empiricist and rationalist.

14th January 2009, 09:41 PM	#4
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	As long as it's not Zoolander...
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

14th January 2009, 09:49 PM	#6
Lord Emsworth Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Through the Cables and the Underground ... Posts: 2,827	It is totally amazing ... and strangely alluring ... with what kind of garbage some people can get away with.
	Last edited by Lord Emsworth; 14th January 2009 at 09:51 PM.

14th January 2009, 09:47 PM	#5
temporalillusion Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canada's Texas Posts: 1,163	A cool hat can add legitimacy.

14th January 2009, 09:57 PM	#7
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,966	They will use exorcists (among others) to determine if the visions are legit or not. It really freaks me out that the Vatican still advocates exorcisms.
	__________________

14th January 2009, 11:57 PM	#8
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Wait, I forgot. Which one is the Pope again?
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust? Last edited by KingMerv00; 14th January 2009 at 11:58 PM.

15th January 2009, 04:23 AM	#9
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,456	Here is an article from The Daily Telegraph. '"According to Petrus, an Italian online magazine which leans towards conservative elements in the Vatican, anyone who claims to have seen an apparition will only be believed as long as they remain silent and do not court publicity over their claims. If they refuse to obey, this will be taken as a sign that their claims are false. The visionaries will then be visited by a team of psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics, to certify their mental health while theologians will assess the content of any heavenly messages to see if they contravene Church teachings. If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful. Guidelines for the approval of apparitions and revelations were last issued in 1978. They lay down that a diocesan bishop can "either on his own initiative or at the request of the faithful" choose to investigate an alleged apparition. He then submits a report to the Vatican for approval."

15th January 2009, 04:50 AM	#10
ParrotPirate Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Here,now Posts: 1,540	Why anybody would take an old guy in a silly hat and a dress seriously is beyond me.

15th January 2009, 05:42 AM	#11
JFrankA Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 4,054	Originally Posted by ParrotPirate Why anybody would take an old guy in a silly hat and a dress seriously is beyond me. welll......you know that hat was designed for a rabbit..... (gotta love South Park)
	__________________ "How perverted you are.", "I will bite you like a serpent. The poison will slowly kill your sophism..." - SnakeTongue "More truth is in a single issue of Mad than a year of Time." - Gord in Toronto "Oh, and one more thing: For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the sheltered will never know." - Wise man in Sucker Punch

15th January 2009, 07:02 AM	#12
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Would Da Papa be interested in providing scientific criteria to separate pseudo-mystics from the real ones? I'll hold my breath!
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 15th January 2009 at 08:07 AM.

17th January 2009, 05:57 AM	#13
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,706	Originally Posted by JFrankA welll......you know that hat was designed for a rabbit..... (gotta love South Park) Peter rabbit, upon this rock shall I found my church. Sanctum Peter Cotium Deus ri hunnam hippitus hoppitus reus domine In suus via torreium Lepis en ei sanctum hippitus hoppitus reus domine
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

17th January 2009, 07:44 AM	#14
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	The Devil Within - Exorcism in the United States
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

17th January 2009, 07:55 AM	#15
IasonOuabache New Blood Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2	Hold on. I got go out and buy a new irony meter.
IasonOuabache New Blood Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2	Last edited by IasonOuabache; 17th January 2009 at 07:59 AM.

17th January 2009, 08:44 AM	#16
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,008	Originally Posted by dafydd Here is an article from The Daily Telegraph. '"According to Petrus, an Italian online magazine which leans towards conservative elements in the Vatican, anyone who claims to have seen an apparition will only be believed as long as they remain silent and do not court publicity over their claims. If they refuse to obey, this will be taken as a sign that their claims are false. In other words: The Truth is the exclusive domain of the church. This article is a treasure trove of asshattery. Quote: The visionaries will then be visited by a team of psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics, to certify their mental health while theologians will assess the content of any heavenly messages to see if they contravene Church teachings. "...psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics.." Are all non-Catholics atheists? Or are they really saying that non-Catholic believers are excluded? Quote: If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful. I'm just thrilled to find out that a possible future career path is demonologist. Quote: Guidelines for the approval of apparitions and revelations were last issued in 1978. They lay down that a diocesan bishop can "either on his own initiative or at the request of the faithful" choose to investigate an alleged apparition. He then submits a report to the Vatican for approval." Didn't the Ghost Busters have a problem of not being properly licensed? This is how you go about getting the seal of approval.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

17th January 2009, 09:01 AM	#17
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,559	Originally Posted by Beerina Would Da Papa be interested in providing scientific criteria to separate pseudo-mystics from the real ones? I'll hold my breath! Well the process involves psychiatrists so it could be rather tricky.

17th January 2009, 09:07 AM	#18
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,559	Originally Posted by hgc In other words: The Truth is the exclusive domain of the church. Well some of the truth yes that is kinda the point. Quote: "...psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics.." Are all non-Catholics atheists? Or are they really saying that non-Catholic believers are excluded? Or could be poor wording. No real benifit in haveing someone heavily into say eastern orthodox involved. Would depend on what the original italian/latin says but could well be looking to indicate secular rather than atheist.

17th January 2009, 11:11 AM	#19
DeusPhasmatis Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 293	Originally Posted by hgc Are all non-Catholics atheists? Yes. See, they're using the old Greek definition, wherein anyone who doesn't believe in their god is an atheist. Socrates was called an atheist because he asked questions (despite professing belief in the Greek gods).
	__________________ "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." "Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking." -John Maynard Keynes I'm an evangelical empiricist and rationalist.

17th January 2009, 11:22 AM	#20
cj.23 Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Kadath in the Cold Waste Posts: 2,822	Originally Posted by jimtron Pseudo-mystics who claim a direct line to God--sounds oddly familiar, doesn't it? I'm no fan of the Pope, but I can see where he is coming from. I am a fan of institutionalized religion, as opposed to personal revelation based stuff and cults. Sure, it all sounds happy, hippy and fun, but in my limited experience and understanding that is where the really nasty **** goes down, not in say the Methodists or RC. Sure we get child molesting catholic priests - like we get child molesting high school teachers - the difference (and utter evil) is if an institutional cover up was carried out -- but we don't get mass suicides or some of the really unpleasant stuff some of the New Religious Movements seem to use against renegade members. Next problem is theological. Personal mystical revelation in Christianity has a ssytem of checks and balances attached - against reason, against Scripture, against the traditions of the Church. Many mystics are clearly loopy, or heretical - so the Pope is just maintaining his usual control over what he defines as legitimate doctrine. It's what Popes do... cj x
	__________________ I'm an Anglican Christian, so I declare my prejudice here. Please take it in to account when reading my posts. "Most people would rather die than think: many do." - Betrand Russell My dull life blogged http://jerome23.wordpress.com

17th January 2009, 12:08 PM	#21
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,496	From a power point of view, he had to cut down on it. I mean, why is god/mary/jesus appearing to everyone BUT the pope?
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

17th January 2009, 12:11 PM	#22
cj.23 Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Kadath in the Cold Waste Posts: 2,822	Originally Posted by joobz From a power point of view, he had to cut down on it. I mean, why is god/mary/jesus appearing to everyone BUT the pope? Ah well maybe he is the Antipope? SOUND _ YOU TUBE link http://uk.youtube.com/watch.php?v=09o56AnTq1I cj x
	__________________ I'm an Anglican Christian, so I declare my prejudice here. Please take it in to account when reading my posts. "Most people would rather die than think: many do." - Betrand Russell My dull life blogged http://jerome23.wordpress.com

17th January 2009, 04:12 PM	#23
Lord Emsworth Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Through the Cables and the Underground ... Posts: 2,827	Originally Posted by hgc "...psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics.." Are all non-Catholics atheists? Or are they really saying that non-Catholic believers are excluded? In Italy I think it holds true that either you're a Catholic or an atheist (if understood as unbelivers in a wider sense). To a very high degree at at least. Not sure if that explains it though.

17th January 2009, 04:23 PM	#24
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,966	cj23 said: Quote: I am a fan of institutionalized religion, as opposed to personal revelation based stuff and cults. What's the advantage of institutionalized beliefs vs personal ones? To me they're both dubious, but with an institution there's a lot more politics, and you don't know whether church members are sincere or only in it for the money and power. If personal, at least there's less politics and filters and stuff. Also, with personal religious belief, I think that folks are more likely to keep it to themselves.
	__________________

18th January 2009, 01:43 PM	#25
biomorph Muse Join Date: May 2007 Location: here, and sometimes elsewhere Posts: 866	Originally Posted by joobz <snip> I mean, why is god/mary/jesus appearing to everyone BUT the pope? Well, if he sez you can't go public with it, and if you do it's probably false, then keeping your mouth shut means you're getting the real deal. Therefore he must get the visions, but has kept mum. Hang on that makes no sense either, which makes sense. Somehow......

18th January 2009, 03:40 PM	#26
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by jimtron cj23 said: What's the advantage of institutionalized beliefs vs personal ones? To me they're both dubious, but with an institution there's a lot more politics, and you don't know whether church members are sincere or only in it for the money and power. If personal, at least there's less politics and filters and stuff. Also, with personal religious belief, I think that folks are more likely to keep it to themselves. It's memespace evolution. Child memes, tired of being stomped out, adopted a "you can do it yourself" attitude. This allowed it to spread more rapidly and avoid stompage, rationale for stompage being a key component of the institutionalized memes. This "mutation" worked.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

18th January 2009, 03:43 PM	#27
shawmutt Squirrel Murderer Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Greencastle, PA Posts: 1,990	pseudo-mystics as opposed to...

18th January 2009, 05:59 PM	#28
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,008	All you need to know about pseudo-mysticism can be found by example in Padre Pio and Josemaría Escrivá, both cananoized by the RC church in recent years -- in Pope JP 2's munificent saint factory.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert