Hamas & Israel Cease-Fire. Hamas Violates cease-fire. - Page 2

FireGarden · 18th January 2009, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Really? Even though Israel does nothing to stop them?

We've been through this before, haven't we?
Hamas arrested an al-Aqsa rocket squad in July 2008:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000881.html

I imagine the practical difficulties of doing the same are harder today.

Skeptic · 18th January 2009, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by yairhol

Incident 2:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...657857,00.html

ddt, still waiting for your promised thread...

Foghettaboutit. The moral-outrage crowd will surely find some excuse to magically not care about, let alone mention, Hamas' rocket attacks.

They always do.

FireGarden · 18th January 2009, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by yairhol

In this case you could type: "Hamas cease-fire rockets Israel".
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090118/...l_palestinians

The quote you gave reads: "Militant rockets peppered southern Israel ahead of the Palestinian truce offer, ..." Which I take to mean rockets before the offer.

Your source goes on to say: "The Palestinian cease-fire was announced by military leaders in Gaza and in Damascus, Syria, the base of Gaza's exiled Hamas leaders. They did not set a time, but it appeared to be effective immediately."

ddt · 18th January 2009, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by yairhol

And then, a rocket is fired to Israel hitting near the town of Netivot.

Originally Posted by ddt

Evidence? The linked article doesn't say so.

easily. google is your friend. You just type www.google.com and at the blank field you type in keywords to whatever you are looking for. In this case you could type: "Hamas cease-fire rockets Israel".

You're the one making the claim; the onus is on you to provide the evidence. And neither of the articles you linked to refers to Netivot, so you're still doing a piss-poor job of providing evidence.

Originally Posted by yairhol

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090118/...l_palestinians

Quote:

Militant rockets peppered southern Israel ahead of the Palestinian truce offer, threatening to re-ignite three weeks of violence that killed more than 1,200 Palestinians — more than half of them civilians, Gaza officials said — and turned the streets of Hamas-ruled Gaza into battlegrounds.

(bolding mine). See the problem with the quote? We've already gone over this. Now you're lying again.

WildCat · 18th January 2009, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by FireGarden

We've been through this before, haven't we?
Hamas arrested an al-Aqsa rocket squad in July 2008:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000881.html

I imagine the practical difficulties of doing the same are harder today.

And no evidence was presented that anything came of that other than an arrest. The Palestinians have a rich history of arresting people who are then immediately let go witout any sort of punishment, the arrest is for show only.

And the current situation seems not to have deterred Hamas from arresting and summarily executing Fatah members merely for appearing to celebrate the Israeli war on Hamas.

Hamas clearly has the means to stop other factions from firing rockets, what they lack is the will.

Allen773 · 18th January 2009, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

And no evidence was presented that anything came of that other than an arrest. The Palestinians have a rich history of arresting people who are then immediately let go witout any sort of punishment, the arrest is for show only.

And the current situation seems not to have deterred Hamas from arresting and summarily executing Fatah members merely for appearing to celebrate the Israeli war on Hamas.

Hamas clearly has the means to stop other factions from firing rockets, what they lack is the will.

And conversely, Israel has the means to end the occupations and blockades, what they lack is the will.

WildCat · 18th January 2009, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Allen773

And conversely, Israel has the means to end the occupations and blockades, what they lack is the will.

The ocupation ended in 2005, perhaps you missed the news? Gaza is now Jew-free.

The "blockade" is a response to Hamas attacking Israel and an internationally recognized terrorist group as the government of Gaza. US persons, for example, are prohibited from doing business with Hamas no matter what Israel does.

yairhol · 18th January 2009, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by ddt

Now you're lying again.

So are you saying there was no rocket fire at Israel after Hamas declared cease-fire?

Originally Posted by ddt

And neither of the articles you linked to refers to Netivot

In the Israeli newspaper it said the rockets hit near Netivot. I have a feeling you don't read Hebrew so I didn't link to that article.
On the other hand the link I did provide said :

Quote:

two rockets exploded in two kibbutzim near the Gaza border

Are you now arguing if it was near Netivot but not in the kibbutzim, or maybe not in the kibbutzim but in Netivot or some other location?
Suddenly you're not saying anything bad about the break of cease-fire by Hamas but arguing if the rockt hit in this or that GPS location in Israel.

pathetic.

Skeptic · 18th January 2009, 09:40 PM

Yes, pathetic -- but what did you expect, Yairhol?

Slayhamlet · 18th January 2009, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by yairhol

So are you saying there was no rocket fire at Israel after Hamas declared cease-fire?

In the Israeli newspaper it said the rockets hit near Netivot. I have a feeling you don't read Hebrew so I didn't link to that article.
On the other hand the link I did provide said :

Are you now arguing if it was near Netivot but not in the kibbutzim, or maybe not in the kibbutzim but in Netivot or some other location?
Suddenly you're not saying anything bad about the break of cease-fire by Hamas but arguing if the rockt hit in this or that GPS location in Israel.

pathetic.

So the only report that the rockets were fired after the Hamas cease-fire is from the notoriously unreliable Debka? That's it?

Hamas has declared a one-week cease-fire. Let us know if/when they actually break it. Okay? So far you've got nothing.

Pathetic indeed.

Slayhamlet · 19th January 2009, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Yes, pathetic -- but what did you expect, Yairhol?

How about some sources that are from actual, respectable media outlets? It shouldn't be so hard to find them, if what you and Yairhol claim is true.

As for Debka.com, by its own admission only about 80 percent of its reports turn out to be true. Most others, including Israeli intelligence officials, consider the site's content far less reliable than that.

lionking · 19th January 2009, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

No, because the UN is a antisemitic dictators' debating club.

Exactly. Over 300 resolutions condemning Israel. How many condemning arab countries? Zero.

yairhol · 19th January 2009, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Slayhamlet

So the only report that the rockets were fired after the Hamas cease-fire is from the notoriously unreliable Debka? That's it?

Nope. I already said that it appeard in the Israeli ynet news site in Hebrew.

Fiona · 19th January 2009, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

No, because the UN is a antisemitic dictators' debating club.

Well in that case Israel quite simply has no right to exist at all and any and all forms of resistance to the invader are quite legitimate. All countries should take strong steps to dismantle the illegal occupation of the land of palestine and should not rest until Israel is defeated

I do not believe that, but if I accept your statement that is the obvious conclusion

quixotecoyote · 19th January 2009, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Fiona

Well in that case Israel quite simply has no right to exist at all and any and all forms of resistance to the invader are quite legitimate. All countries should take strong steps to dismantle the illegal occupation of the land of palestine and should not rest until Israel is defeated

I do not believe that, but if I accept your statement that is the obvious conclusion

Really? So if the anti-semitic faction in the UN managed to get control of the security council, you'd gleefully skip down the road to the next holocaust, since whatever the UN says is legitimate?

I do not believe that, but if I accept your statement that is the obvious conclusion.

lupus_in_fabula · 19th January 2009, 01:50 AM

Everyone can play this game:

B'tselem is investigating the shooting of a Palestinian farmer on Sunday.

Quote:

A farmer from the Huza'ah village, Maher Abd al-Athim Yusuf Abu-Rajileh, age 24, was killed this morning by Israeli gunfire while working his land, some 400 meters from the Israeli border. His brother, Dr. Wissam Abu-Rijleh, told B'Tselem that in spite of the ceasefire, the soldiers opened fire without warning at dozens of farmers, killed Abu-Rajileh.

Even if it turns out to be true, I see little purpose in constantly trying to find breaches by either side. I prefer looking at the how the underpinning structural situation evolves. When people have tried to kill each other for an intense period of time (3 weeks now), there's always going to be some continued individual momentum despite cease-fire announcements.

Fiona · 19th January 2009, 01:52 AM

Nope. Israel's right to exist rests on a decision of the UN. That is quite simple. If the UN has no legitimacy neither does the state of Israel.

The persistent conflation of anti-semitism with anti-zionism is understandable at many levels: but it does not reflect the real world and no amount of repetition will make it do so. There are people who are anti-semitic: and there are those who oppose Israel for those reasons, I imagine. But opposition to Israel does not imply anti-semitism and repeated assertions that it does only seems to be an attempt to change the subject.

I have seen no UN resolution in favour of a holocaust: not even a failed resolution. Have you?

quixotecoyote · 19th January 2009, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by Fiona

Nope. Israel's right to exist rests on a decision of the UN. That is quite simple. If the UN has no legitimacy neither does the state of Israel.

It's interesting to note how little regard you have towards right of Israel to exist. If the UN decides your country shouldn't exist, would you accept that your country has no right to exist?

Quote:

I have seen no UN resolution in favour of a holocaust: not even a failed resolution. Have you?

Of course not. Merely the desire to see Israel cease to exist and the population put under the control of one of several regimes who promise their death and destruction.

But you know, surely they are merely anti-Zionist and once Israel is destroyed they'll treat the jews under their control with the maximum of respect and decency.

Fiona · 19th January 2009, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

It's interesting to note how little regard you have towards right of Israel to exist. If the UN decides your country shouldn't exist, would you accept that your country has no right to exist?

I suggest you ask a palestinian

quixotecoyote · 19th January 2009, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by Fiona

I suggest you ask a palestinian

The terrorists, or the ones who elected terrorists?

Ragnarok · 19th January 2009, 02:57 AM

I know it would take some doing to make Hamas look any worse than they are, but HOW do we know it is Hamas every time? How difficult would it be for their opponents, or anyone else who doesn't want peace to fire rockets pretending to be Hamas? As it is not a conventional war, I doubt very much that the Hamas fellas all wear little badges, or easily designated clothing.

Doesn't the real blame for all this mayhem lie with a society that allows its military and arms dealers to get away with shoddy book-keeping?

gtc · 19th January 2009, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by Fiona

Nope. Israel's right to exist rests on a decision of the UN. That is quite simple. If the UN has no legitimacy neither does the state of Israel.

Would that apply to an independent Scotland? Would Scotland only have the right to its independence if the UN agreed?

KoihimeNakamura · 19th January 2009, 03:57 AM

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

Surprise.

Skeptic · 19th January 2009, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Nope. Israel's right to exist rests on a decision of the UN.

No it doesn't. The UN *recognized* the Jews' right for a state -- a decision it obviously deeply regrets -- but it no more *gave* the Jews that right than anyone else did.

In any case, the UN in 1947 is one thing, the UN in 2009 quite another. Ever since the cold war got into gear, in the early 50s at the latest, the UN was hijacked by the dictatorships and became a Israel-bashing debating club.

Skeptic · 19th January 2009, 04:18 AM

Look at the obvious double standard: the Jews' sole right to a state is a UN deicision... but the Palestinians have an inalianable right to a state, UN decision or not.

(And yes, I know the UN decision didn't merely "decide to create Israel", and in fact called for two states, a decision nullified by the Arab world's instant attack on Israel with the goal of throwing the Jews into the sea. But I digress.)

Fiona · 19th January 2009, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by gtc

Would that apply to an independent Scotland? Would Scotland only have the right to its independence if the UN agreed?

If the proposed independent scotland was to be established by taking half of denmark, then yes, I think so

ddt · 19th January 2009, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by lupus_in_fabula

B'tselem is investigating the shooting of a Palestinian farmer on Sunday.

As a matter of policy, B'Tselem investigates every death in the conflict.

lupus_in_fabula · 19th January 2009, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

As a matter of policy, B'Tselem investigates every death in the conflict.

Yes, that's their job, which they should continue diligently. I should have been more clear in that I was questioning the rationale of this thread. There are two unilateral announcements (each with different conditions) and there's at least one Palestinians fraction announcing it will decide for itself when to stop firing rockets.

gtc · 19th January 2009, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Fiona

If the proposed independent scotland was to be established by taking half of denmark, then yes, I think so

Its going to take x per cent of the UK and no one is proposing to let England, Wales and NI vote in any referendum.

yairhol · 20th January 2009, 07:42 AM

Hamas violates Cease-Fire. Incidents # 1 & 2 (01.20.09):

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...659231,00.html

Quote:

Gunmen fire at IDF troops in 2 incidents

Force fired on near Gaza border, south of Kissufim crossing; 40 minutes later, gunmen shoot at another Israeli force in central Strip. No injuries reported. Meanwhile, army begins pulling out last forces from Strip. Reservists released, regular brigades remain in bases near Gaza, prepared for any possible scenario

yairhol · 20th January 2009, 09:37 AM

Hamas violation #3:

Quote:

IDF: Palestinians fired 8 mortar shells Tuesday

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...659473,00.html

Skeptic · 20th January 2009, 02:04 PM

Yairhol, how many times can we say this?

These folks CLAIM they are "outraged" by Hamas' random rocketing of Israeli civilians, ceasefire violations, etc. but their actions prove they just don't care.

dudalb · 20th January 2009, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Yairhol, how many times can we say this?

These folks CLAIM they are "outraged" by Hamas' random rocketing of Israeli civilians, ceasefire violations, etc. but their actions prove they just don't care.

Exactly. I have been maintaining for some time that a number of people here really want Israel destroyed, but don't have the guts to say so.
I doubt that Israel's action in the Gaza was the right move to make, but I can understand why they did it.
And I also maintain that there is no chance in hell of a peace deal as long as Hamas stays in power..despite wishful thinking to the contrary.

a_unique_person · 20th January 2009, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Exactly. I have been maintaining for some time that a number of people here really want Israel destroyed, but don't have the guts to say so.

Who would they be? Do you have any evidence or are you psychic?

FireGarden · 21st January 2009, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I doubt that Israel's action in the Gaza was the right move to make, but I can understand why they did it.

We all understand why. And you "doubt" it was the right move. You just don't have the guts to call a spade a spade: what Israel engaged in was a massive act of terror.

See: Like you, I can be a mind-reader.

FireGarden · 21st January 2009, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Yairhol, how many times can we say this?

These folks CLAIM they are "outraged" by Hamas' random rocketing of Israeli civilians, ceasefire violations, etc. but their actions prove they just don't care.

I'll state very clearly that my outrage at what Israel has done far, far outstrips my outrage at what Hamas has done. I regard Israel as the more dangerous terrorist in the region.

If what Hamas has done requires a single sentence in condemnation, then what Israel has done requires a thousand. That is why I don't take time out of my day to catalogue every single crime that Hamas commits.

Have you even seen one single picture of what has happened in Gaza?

yairhol · 21st January 2009, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by FireGarden

I'll state very clearly that my outrage at what Israel has done far, far outstrips my outrage at what Hamas has done. I regard Israel as the more dangerous terrorist in the region.

If what Hamas has done requires a single sentence in condemnation, then what Israel has done requires a thousand. That is why I don't take time out of my day to catalogue every single crime that Hamas commits.

Have you even seen one single picture of what has happened in Gaza?

We like terrorists don't we? Yes, yes we do.
Amazing how an American person can rude for the terrorists after 9/11.

America, I'm sure has killed some innocent people in Afghanistan while persuing Bin-Laden. It's just the way war is against terrorists. Is America considered a terrorist nation by your standards?

Yes we have seen pictures of what Gaza looks like now.
More and more evidence is pouring in of how terrorists used civilian buildings for shooting rockets and mortars at Israeli towns and villages. Then people like you say what evil Israel has done to those poor civilians. I mean come on, Israel destroyed their houses. How terrible is that?

Almost 3000 rockets and mortars were fired by the terrorists at Israel in 2008 alone and you claim that Israel should have not went on a military operation to stop it?

yairhol · 21st January 2009, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by FireGarden

That is why I don't take time out of my day to catalogue every single crime that Hamas commits.

If you try to catalogue every single crime that Hamas commits you'll need a 3000+ post thread for 2008 alone.
Let's not count all the crimes by Hamas but let's do count the one operation Israel does to stop the 3000+ crimes by Hamas.

a balanced and logical view.

The Fool · 21st January 2009, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by yairhol

We like terrorists don't we? Yes, yes we do.
Amazing how an American person can rude for the terrorists after 9/11.

America, I'm sure has killed some innocent people in Afghanistan while persuing Bin-Laden. It's just the way war is against terrorists. Is America considered a terrorist nation by your standards?

Yes we have seen pictures of what Gaza looks like now.
More and more evidence is pouring in of how terrorists used civilian buildings for shooting rockets and mortars at Israeli towns and villages. Then people like you say what evil Israel has done to those poor civilians. I mean come on, Israel destroyed their houses. How terrible is that?

Almost 3000 rockets and mortars were fired by the terrorists at Israel in 2008 alone and you claim that Israel should have not went on a military operation to stop it?

Just curious but is there any number of Dead Palestinians you would call too violent a reaction? Any number come to mind?

yairhol · 21st January 2009, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

Just curious but is there any number of Dead Palestinians you would call too violent a reaction? Any number come to mind?

I don't look at human lives in numbers. Not on the Israeli side and not on the Palestinian.
The military operation was a must in Israel's view in order to stop the almost 3000 rockets/mortars a year shot on southern Israeli civilians by the terrorists. There is no possible way of fighting gureilla terrorists hiding in civilian population, firing from within crowds of people and hiding their arsenals in civilian families' kitchens, without civilians getting hurt. It's a great tragedy that Palestinian civilians get hurt but we must remember that it's a situation in which the Hamas is forcing on its own people. The Hamas don't regard their people's lives, not Israel. The Hamas are shooting from schools, children's rooms, mosques etc.
There have been plenty of evidence that Israel is doing all it can to avoid hurting innocent Palestinian lives. And again, almost 3000 rockets/mortars are fired at Israeli civilians a year. I can't imagine a government in the world that would not do something similar to what Israel had done.

18th January 2009, 12:37 PM	#41
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Originally Posted by WildCat Really? Even though Israel does nothing to stop them? We've been through this before, haven't we? Hamas arrested an al-Aqsa rocket squad in July 2008: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000881.html I imagine the practical difficulties of doing the same are harder today.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

18th January 2009, 12:58 PM	#43
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Originally Posted by yairhol In this case you could type: "Hamas cease-fire rockets Israel". http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090118/...l_palestinians The quote you gave reads: "Militant rockets peppered southern Israel ahead of the Palestinian truce offer, ..." Which I take to mean rockets before the offer. Your source goes on to say: "The Palestinian cease-fire was announced by military leaders in Gaza and in Damascus, Syria, the base of Gaza's exiled Hamas leaders. They did not set a time, but it appeared to be effective immediately."
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

18th January 2009, 04:06 PM	#44
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,318	Originally Posted by yairhol Originally Posted by yairhol And then, a rocket is fired to Israel hitting near the town of Netivot. Originally Posted by ddt Evidence? The linked article doesn't say so. easily. google is your friend. You just type www.google.com and at the blank field you type in keywords to whatever you are looking for. In this case you could type: "Hamas cease-fire rockets Israel". You're the one making the claim; the onus is on you to provide the evidence. And neither of the articles you linked to refers to Netivot, so you're still doing a piss-poor job of providing evidence. Originally Posted by yairhol http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090118/...l_palestinians Quote: Militant rockets peppered southern Israel ahead of the Palestinian truce offer, threatening to re-ignite three weeks of violence that killed more than 1,200 Palestinians — more than half of them civilians, Gaza officials said — and turned the streets of Hamas-ruled Gaza into battlegrounds. (bolding mine). See the problem with the quote? We've already gone over this. Now you're lying again.
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group

18th January 2009, 05:16 PM	#46
Allen773 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 419	Originally Posted by WildCat And no evidence was presented that anything came of that other than an arrest. The Palestinians have a rich history of arresting people who are then immediately let go witout any sort of punishment, the arrest is for show only. And the current situation seems not to have deterred Hamas from arresting and summarily executing Fatah members merely for appearing to celebrate the Israeli war on Hamas. Hamas clearly has the means to stop other factions from firing rockets, what they lack is the will. And conversely, Israel has the means to end the occupations and blockades, what they lack is the will.
Allen773 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 419

18th January 2009, 09:21 PM	#48
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Originally Posted by ddt Now you're lying again. So are you saying there was no rocket fire at Israel after Hamas declared cease-fire? Originally Posted by ddt And neither of the articles you linked to refers to Netivot In the Israeli newspaper it said the rockets hit near Netivot. I have a feeling you don't read Hebrew so I didn't link to that article. On the other hand the link I did provide said : Quote: two rockets exploded in two kibbutzim near the Gaza border Are you now arguing if it was near Netivot but not in the kibbutzim, or maybe not in the kibbutzim but in Netivot or some other location? Suddenly you're not saying anything bad about the break of cease-fire by Hamas but arguing if the rockt hit in this or that GPS location in Israel. pathetic.
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

18th January 2009, 12:46 PM	#42
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by yairhol Incident 2: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...657857,00.html ddt, still waiting for your promised thread... Foghettaboutit. The moral-outrage crowd will surely find some excuse to magically not care about, let alone mention, Hamas' rocket attacks. They always do.

18th January 2009, 05:13 PM	#45
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,983	Originally Posted by FireGarden We've been through this before, haven't we? Hamas arrested an al-Aqsa rocket squad in July 2008: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000881.html I imagine the practical difficulties of doing the same are harder today. And no evidence was presented that anything came of that other than an arrest. The Palestinians have a rich history of arresting people who are then immediately let go witout any sort of punishment, the arrest is for show only. And the current situation seems not to have deterred Hamas from arresting and summarily executing Fatah members merely for appearing to celebrate the Israeli war on Hamas. Hamas clearly has the means to stop other factions from firing rockets, what they lack is the will.

18th January 2009, 05:33 PM	#47
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,983	Originally Posted by Allen773 And conversely, Israel has the means to end the occupations and blockades, what they lack is the will. The ocupation ended in 2005, perhaps you missed the news? Gaza is now Jew-free. The "blockade" is a response to Hamas attacking Israel and an internationally recognized terrorist group as the government of Gaza. US persons, for example, are prohibited from doing business with Hamas no matter what Israel does.

18th January 2009, 09:40 PM	#49
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Yes, pathetic -- but what did you expect, Yairhol?

18th January 2009, 11:51 PM	#50
Slayhamlet Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,427	Originally Posted by yairhol So are you saying there was no rocket fire at Israel after Hamas declared cease-fire? In the Israeli newspaper it said the rockets hit near Netivot. I have a feeling you don't read Hebrew so I didn't link to that article. On the other hand the link I did provide said : Are you now arguing if it was near Netivot but not in the kibbutzim, or maybe not in the kibbutzim but in Netivot or some other location? Suddenly you're not saying anything bad about the break of cease-fire by Hamas but arguing if the rockt hit in this or that GPS location in Israel. pathetic. So the only report that the rockets were fired after the Hamas cease-fire is from the notoriously unreliable Debka? That's it? Hamas has declared a one-week cease-fire. Let us know if/when they actually break it. Okay? So far you've got nothing. Pathetic indeed.

19th January 2009, 12:05 AM	#51
Slayhamlet Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,427	Originally Posted by Skeptic Yes, pathetic -- but what did you expect, Yairhol? How about some sources that are from actual, respectable media outlets? It shouldn't be so hard to find them, if what you and Yairhol claim is true. As for Debka.com, by its own admission only about 80 percent of its reports turn out to be true. Most others, including Israeli intelligence officials, consider the site's content far less reliable than that.

19th January 2009, 12:43 AM	#52
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,650	Originally Posted by Skeptic No, because the UN is a antisemitic dictators' debating club. Exactly. Over 300 resolutions condemning Israel. How many condemning arab countries? Zero.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

19th January 2009, 12:59 AM	#53
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Originally Posted by Slayhamlet So the only report that the rockets were fired after the Hamas cease-fire is from the notoriously unreliable Debka? That's it? Nope. I already said that it appeard in the Israeli ynet news site in Hebrew.
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

19th January 2009, 01:22 AM	#54
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238	Originally Posted by Skeptic No, because the UN is a antisemitic dictators' debating club. Well in that case Israel quite simply has no right to exist at all and any and all forms of resistance to the invader are quite legitimate. All countries should take strong steps to dismantle the illegal occupation of the land of palestine and should not rest until Israel is defeated I do not believe that, but if I accept your statement that is the obvious conclusion
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238

19th January 2009, 01:27 AM	#55
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by Fiona Well in that case Israel quite simply has no right to exist at all and any and all forms of resistance to the invader are quite legitimate. All countries should take strong steps to dismantle the illegal occupation of the land of palestine and should not rest until Israel is defeated I do not believe that, but if I accept your statement that is the obvious conclusion Really? So if the anti-semitic faction in the UN managed to get control of the security council, you'd gleefully skip down the road to the next holocaust, since whatever the UN says is legitimate? I do not believe that, but if I accept your statement that is the obvious conclusion.
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

19th January 2009, 01:50 AM	#56
lupus_in_fabula Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,046	Everyone can play this game: B'tselem is investigating the shooting of a Palestinian farmer on Sunday. Quote: A farmer from the Huza'ah village, Maher Abd al-Athim Yusuf Abu-Rajileh, age 24, was killed this morning by Israeli gunfire while working his land, some 400 meters from the Israeli border. His brother, Dr. Wissam Abu-Rijleh, told B'Tselem that in spite of the ceasefire, the soldiers opened fire without warning at dozens of farmers, killed Abu-Rajileh. Even if it turns out to be true, I see little purpose in constantly trying to find breaches by either side. I prefer looking at the how the underpinning structural situation evolves. When people have tried to kill each other for an intense period of time (3 weeks now), there's always going to be some continued individual momentum despite cease-fire announcements.
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19th January 2009, 01:52 AM	#57
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238	Nope. Israel's right to exist rests on a decision of the UN. That is quite simple. If the UN has no legitimacy neither does the state of Israel. The persistent conflation of anti-semitism with anti-zionism is understandable at many levels: but it does not reflect the real world and no amount of repetition will make it do so. There are people who are anti-semitic: and there are those who oppose Israel for those reasons, I imagine. But opposition to Israel does not imply anti-semitism and repeated assertions that it does only seems to be an attempt to change the subject. I have seen no UN resolution in favour of a holocaust: not even a failed resolution. Have you?
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238

19th January 2009, 02:35 AM	#58
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by Fiona Nope. Israel's right to exist rests on a decision of the UN. That is quite simple. If the UN has no legitimacy neither does the state of Israel. It's interesting to note how little regard you have towards right of Israel to exist. If the UN decides your country shouldn't exist, would you accept that your country has no right to exist? Quote: I have seen no UN resolution in favour of a holocaust: not even a failed resolution. Have you? Of course not. Merely the desire to see Israel cease to exist and the population put under the control of one of several regimes who promise their death and destruction. But you know, surely they are merely anti-Zionist and once Israel is destroyed they'll treat the jews under their control with the maximum of respect and decency.
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19th January 2009, 02:45 AM	#59
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238	Originally Posted by quixotecoyote It's interesting to note how little regard you have towards right of Israel to exist. If the UN decides your country shouldn't exist, would you accept that your country has no right to exist? I suggest you ask a palestinian
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238

19th January 2009, 02:54 AM	#60
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by Fiona I suggest you ask a palestinian The terrorists, or the ones who elected terrorists?
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19th January 2009, 02:57 AM	#61
Ragnarok Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 492	I know it would take some doing to make Hamas look any worse than they are, but HOW do we know it is Hamas every time? How difficult would it be for their opponents, or anyone else who doesn't want peace to fire rockets pretending to be Hamas? As it is not a conventional war, I doubt very much that the Hamas fellas all wear little badges, or easily designated clothing. Doesn't the real blame for all this mayhem lie with a society that allows its military and arms dealers to get away with shoddy book-keeping?
Ragnarok Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 492

19th January 2009, 03:00 AM	#62
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,114	Originally Posted by Fiona Nope. Israel's right to exist rests on a decision of the UN. That is quite simple. If the UN has no legitimacy neither does the state of Israel. Would that apply to an independent Scotland? Would Scotland only have the right to its independence if the UN agreed?

19th January 2009, 03:57 AM	#63
KoihimeNakamura Creativity Murderer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Graham, WA Posts: 6,849	http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull Surprise.
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19th January 2009, 04:05 AM	#64
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Quote: Nope. Israel's right to exist rests on a decision of the UN. No it doesn't. The UN recognized the Jews' right for a state -- a decision it obviously deeply regrets -- but it no more gave the Jews that right than anyone else did. In any case, the UN in 1947 is one thing, the UN in 2009 quite another. Ever since the cold war got into gear, in the early 50s at the latest, the UN was hijacked by the dictatorships and became a Israel-bashing debating club.

19th January 2009, 04:18 AM	#65
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Look at the obvious double standard: the Jews' sole right to a state is a UN deicision... but the Palestinians have an inalianable right to a state, UN decision or not. (And yes, I know the UN decision didn't merely "decide to create Israel", and in fact called for two states, a decision nullified by the Arab world's instant attack on Israel with the goal of throwing the Jews into the sea. But I digress.)
	Last edited by Skeptic; 19th January 2009 at 04:21 AM.

19th January 2009, 04:20 AM	#66
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238	Originally Posted by gtc Would that apply to an independent Scotland? Would Scotland only have the right to its independence if the UN agreed? If the proposed independent scotland was to be established by taking half of denmark, then yes, I think so
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238

19th January 2009, 05:12 AM	#67
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,318	Originally Posted by lupus_in_fabula B'tselem is investigating the shooting of a Palestinian farmer on Sunday. As a matter of policy, B'Tselem investigates every death in the conflict.
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19th January 2009, 05:28 AM	#68
lupus_in_fabula Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,046	Originally Posted by ddt As a matter of policy, B'Tselem investigates every death in the conflict. Yes, that's their job, which they should continue diligently. I should have been more clear in that I was questioning the rationale of this thread. There are two unilateral announcements (each with different conditions) and there's at least one Palestinians fraction announcing it will decide for itself when to stop firing rockets.
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19th January 2009, 01:06 PM	#69
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,114	Originally Posted by Fiona If the proposed independent scotland was to be established by taking half of denmark, then yes, I think so Its going to take x per cent of the UK and no one is proposing to let England, Wales and NI vote in any referendum.

20th January 2009, 07:42 AM	#70
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Starting Over so that there are no disagreements Hamas violates Cease-Fire. Incidents # 1 & 2 (01.20.09): http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...659231,00.html Quote: Gunmen fire at IDF troops in 2 incidents Force fired on near Gaza border, south of Kissufim crossing; 40 minutes later, gunmen shoot at another Israeli force in central Strip. No injuries reported. Meanwhile, army begins pulling out last forces from Strip. Reservists released, regular brigades remain in bases near Gaza, prepared for any possible scenario
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

20th January 2009, 09:37 AM	#71
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Hamas violation #3: Quote: IDF: Palestinians fired 8 mortar shells Tuesday http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...659473,00.html
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

20th January 2009, 02:04 PM	#72
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Yairhol, how many times can we say this? These folks CLAIM they are "outraged" by Hamas' random rocketing of Israeli civilians, ceasefire violations, etc. but their actions prove they just don't care.

20th January 2009, 05:18 PM	#73
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,786	Originally Posted by Skeptic Yairhol, how many times can we say this? These folks CLAIM they are "outraged" by Hamas' random rocketing of Israeli civilians, ceasefire violations, etc. but their actions prove they just don't care. Exactly. I have been maintaining for some time that a number of people here really want Israel destroyed, but don't have the guts to say so. I doubt that Israel's action in the Gaza was the right move to make, but I can understand why they did it. And I also maintain that there is no chance in hell of a peace deal as long as Hamas stays in power..despite wishful thinking to the contrary.

20th January 2009, 05:24 PM	#74
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,321	Originally Posted by dudalb Exactly. I have been maintaining for some time that a number of people here really want Israel destroyed, but don't have the guts to say so. Who would they be? Do you have any evidence or are you psychic?
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21st January 2009, 12:48 AM	#75
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Originally Posted by dudalb I doubt that Israel's action in the Gaza was the right move to make, but I can understand why they did it. We all understand why. And you "doubt" it was the right move. You just don't have the guts to call a spade a spade: what Israel engaged in was a massive act of terror. See: Like you, I can be a mind-reader.
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