Rabbi attacked for praying with Obama

Thunder · 25th January 2009, 08:03 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057948.html

Basically, they are condemning him for praying with his fellow Americans in a church.

"How dare you pray with goys!!" They are basically saying.

TsarBomba · 25th January 2009, 11:43 AM

From the original post:

Quote:

"The long-standing policy of the Rabbinical Council of America, in accordance with Jewish law, is that participation in a prayer service held in the sanctuary of a church is prohibited," the statement read. "Any member of the RCA who attends such a service does so in contravention of this policy and should not be perceived as representing the organization in any capacity."

I'm sorry. What exactly do you have an objection to? I can think of lots of reasons why an organization like this would not want Rabbis praying in a church.

TsarBomba · 25th January 2009, 11:45 AM

From the original post:

Quote:

"The long-standing policy of the Rabbinical Council of America, in accordance with Jewish law, is that participation in a prayer service held in the sanctuary of a church is prohibited," the statement read. "Any member of the RCA who attends such a service does so in contravention of this policy and should not be perceived as representing the organization in any capacity."

I'm sorry. What exactly do you have an objection to? I can think of lots of reasons why an organization like this would not want Rabbis praying in a church.

Thunder · 25th January 2009, 11:50 AM

christian priests, ministers, etc..are allowed to come to synagogues and pray.

why should rabbis be any different?

the message seems to be: "you are welcome to come to our holy places and pray..for we are the true faith. but our holy men are not allowed to go to your temples of idol worship and lies. and we certainly are not allowed to demean ourselves by praying with the likes of you".

am i reading too much into this? i dont think i am.

TsarBomba · 25th January 2009, 11:58 AM

Seriously? You don't understand why Jewish groups would have a problem with this? And why Christians would have not problem with their leaders going to Synagogues?

Oy Vey!

I know that this may come as a shock to you--many Jews see Christianity as a threat. Something to do with continuous efforts to convert Jews. Something to do with deep seated fears from hundreds of years of persecution, pogroms, banishments, forced conversions, legal disabilities, anti-semitism, the Holocaust (which only ended 63 years ago), and so forth. If you understand that viewpoint, maybe you can understand why an Orthodox rabbinical group would not want a Rabbi to pray in a church.

Thunder · 25th January 2009, 12:11 PM

I don't see Christians as a threat. At least not anymore. I think that clearly ended with the Holocaust, when it became clear that Christian anti-Semitism was indeed contributing to much Jewish suffering.

I of course understand why Jews would be mad at a Rabbi for praying with his fellow Americans in a church. But I think their reasons for being mad are outdated and it is time to evolve and move on. We can't live in the past forever.

Do I think a Rabbi should say a clearly Christian prayer? Absolutely not. Not even the Lord's Prayer, which makes no specific references to Jesus.

Saying some generic Judeo-Christian prayer like "Oh God, please protect and keep the United States from harm", is no big deal in my eyes.

Can't we all just...get along and grow the hell up?

TsarBomba · 25th January 2009, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

I don't see Christians as a threat. At least not anymore. I think that clearly ended with the Holocaust, when it became clear that Christian anti-Semitism was indeed contributing to much Jewish suffering.

I of course understand why Jews would be mad at a Rabbi for praying with his fellow Americans in a church. But I think their reasons for being mad are outdated and it is time to evolve and move on. We can't live in the past forever.

Do I think a Rabbi should say a clearly Christian prayer? Absolutely not. Not even the Lord's Prayer, which makes no specific references to Jesus.

Saying some generic Judeo-Christian prayer like "Oh God, please protect and keep the United States from harm", is no big deal in my eyes.

Can't we all just...get along and grow the hell up?

As I read the article, they are merely pointing out that his attendance at this event was not in his official capacity as a representative of their group, nor did the group in any way endorse his attendance. I still don't see why you have a problem with that.

a_unique_person · 26th January 2009, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by TsarBomba

Seriously? You don't understand why Jewish groups would have a problem with this? And why Christians would have not problem with their leaders going to Synagogues?

Oy Vey!

I know that this may come as a shock to you--many Jews see Christianity as a threat. Something to do with continuous efforts to convert Jews. Something to do with deep seated fears from hundreds of years of persecution, pogroms, banishments, forced conversions, legal disabilities, anti-semitism, the Holocaust (which only ended 63 years ago), and so forth. If you understand that viewpoint, maybe you can understand why an Orthodox rabbinical group would not want a Rabbi to pray in a church.

They'll take America's arms and money, they'll talk about what great allies they are, but they can't trust them enough to say a simple, non denominational prayer?

DeusPhasmatis · 26th January 2009, 12:57 PM

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Praying in a house of worship that belongs to another god breaks the first commandment.

Vic Vega · 26th January 2009, 01:15 PM

"Any member of the RCA who attends such a service does so in contravention of this policy and should not be perceived as representing the organization in any capacity."

Wow! What a punishment. How will the Rabbi survive?

Much ado about nothing...

Vic Vega · 26th January 2009, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

They'll take America's arms and money, they'll talk about what great allies they are, but they can't trust them enough to say a simple, non denominational prayer?

Who is the "they" you are referring to? The policy is from the "Rabbinical Council of America".

They're taking arms and money from the US Government???? I'll bet they'd be surprised to hear that.

pgwenthold · 26th January 2009, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Praying in a house of worship that belongs to another god breaks the first commandment.

How so? If 99% of the time they pray in a synogogue, and only go to another churce 1%of the time, how is that "having other gods BEFORE me"?

The big God gets the majority of the prayers, and therefore is #1 on the list.

The commandment does not prohibit praying to other gods at all.

DeusPhasmatis · 26th January 2009, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

How so? If 99% of the time they pray in a synogogue, and only go to another churce 1%of the time, how is that "having other gods BEFORE me"?

The big God gets the majority of the prayers, and therefore is #1 on the list.

The commandment does not prohibit praying to other gods at all.

And having just one tryst isn't adultery, right? You're still being 99% faithful, after all!

Praying to another god is holding another god before Yaweh. Remember, he's a jealous god.

drkitten · 26th January 2009, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

They'll take America's arms and money, they'll talk about what great allies they are, but they can't trust them enough to say a simple, non denominational prayer?

If I needed a type specimen for "someone who can't distinguish between Jews and Israelis," you've just provided one.

Thunder · 26th January 2009, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

If I needed a type specimen for "someone who can't distinguish between Jews and Israelis," you've just provided one.

My synagogue flies an Israeli flag. On Rosh Hashanah we say a prayer for the welfare of the State of Israel.

This is clearly a mixing of Jewish faith with Zionist politics.

hgc · 26th January 2009, 05:11 PM

This location-specific religious taboo in Judaism doesn't sound right me. I want to know the "law" that is being referred to here. Ever since the destruction of the temple, the proper location for daily prayers is anywhere 10 men can stand together.

DeusPhasmatis · 26th January 2009, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by hgc

This location-specific religious taboo in Judaism doesn't sound right me. I want to know the "law" that is being referred to here. Ever since the destruction of the temple, the proper location for daily prayers is anywhere 10 men can stand together.

The issue is that a church is a place of worship to a different god, and thus not kosher. Yaweh is a jerk. I'm surprised that this isn't common knowledge.

hgc · 26th January 2009, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis

The issue is that a church is a place of worship to a different god, and thus not kosher. Yaweh is a jerk. I'm surprised that this isn't common knowledge.

Meh. That's a tenuous bridge to a law against worshipping in such a place. When someone starts telling me about laws, I want to know chapter and verse so that I can look it up myself. And the 1st commandment doesn't cover it in this case. Not saying there's no such restriction, but just that I never heard of it. Maybe it's in the Talmud.

linusrichard · 27th January 2009, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

christian priests, ministers, etc..are allowed to come to synagogues and pray.

why should rabbis be any different?

Christian priests, ministers, etc. are also allowed to eat cheeseburgers and shrimp cocktail. Is it that weird that different religions have different rules?

Quote:

the message seems to be: "you are welcome to come to our holy places and pray..for we are the true faith. but our holy men are not allowed to go to your temples of idol worship and lies. and we certainly are not allowed to demean ourselves by praying with the likes of you".

It's religion, though, right? - I mean, the whole thing is premised on having some access to absolute truth, so to be consistent, anyone who believes differently believes that which is not true, i.e., lies.

Quote:

am i reading too much into this? i dont think i am.

I don't know if you're reading too much into this, but what you are reading into it isn't really that big of a deal, as far as I can tell.

Originally Posted by parky76

I of course understand why Jews would be mad at a Rabbi for praying with his fellow Americans in a church. But I think their reasons for being mad are outdated and it is time to evolve and move on. We can't live in the past forever.

As far as I'm concerned, you can apply that statement to religion in general. Outdated, time to evolve and move on, can't live in the past forever. Check, check, check.

Quote:

Do I think a Rabbi should say a clearly Christian prayer? Absolutely not. Not even the Lord's Prayer, which makes no specific references to Jesus.

Saying some generic Judeo-Christian prayer like "Oh God, please protect and keep the United States from harm", is no big deal in my eyes.

How are you choosing to draw this particular line in this particular place? And how is the process by which you choose to draw this line there any better than the process by which the Rabbinical Council of America chooses to draw the line where they do?

Quote:

Can't we all just...get along and grow the hell up?

It's religion. What are you gonna do?

Originally Posted by parky76

My synagogue flies an Israeli flag. On Rosh Hashanah we say a prayer for the welfare of the State of Israel.

This is clearly a mixing of Jewish faith with Zionist politics.

I don't think anyone will argue with you there. The issue was the confusion of Jews with Israelis - or even better - the confusion of Jews with the Israeli government. Despite what your synagogue does, the Rabbinical Council of America does not receive arms or money from the U.S. government.

Damien Evans · 27th January 2009, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Praying in a house of worship that belongs to another god breaks the first commandment.

Fail.

pgwenthold · 27th January 2009, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis

And having just one tryst isn't adultery, right? You're still being 99% faithful, after all!

My marriage vows did not say that my wife would be my #1 girl. I vowed to be exclusive. The first commandment does not prohibit worshiping other gods.

Quote:

Praying to another god is holding another god before Yaweh. Remember, he's a jealous god.

So you are one of those who believes that all Catholics will go to hell because they pray to Mary and the saints, right?

Lucky · 27th January 2009, 04:02 PM

Some interesting comments to the Haaretz article – most of them scathing about the orthodox rabbis. A couple of them suggest that this 'law' derives from the prohibition on idolatry, because of the images, statues etc. in churches, and that's why it doesn't apply to mosques. I think this probably is the explanation. In typical orthodox fashion, a biblical prohibition has been interpreted, distorted and stretched to the limits of the imaginations of generations of rabbis, and beyond all bounds of reason.

I agree with parky on this one (

). OK, so the 'punishment' is a little rap on the knuckles (and, believe me, I do appreciate the difference between Judaism and Islam in the allowable sanctions for a 'transgression'). Even so, it's stupid, mean-spirited and indefensible, and puts Judaism in a bad light.

But ... parky, you're still doing this thing of equating Jews, Judaism, rabbis etc. with orthodoxy. It's factually incorrect. The orthodox are not 'the Jews'. They are a minority of Jews in your country. In the UK and Europe the mainstream (non black-hat) orthodox are the majority of Jews, but they are more like your Conservatives than your modern orthodox, and tend not to commit these public embarrassments.

DeusPhasmatis · 28th January 2009, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

My marriage vows did not say that my wife would be my #1 girl. I vowed to be exclusive. The first commandment does not prohibit worshiping other gods.

That's what the first commandment is: a law of exclusive worship.

Exodus 23:13 "Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips."

Of course, there's the wonderful Exodus 32, where Moses has a group of the Hebrews kill 3000 others for worshipping a golden calf. Not "Oh, that's fine as long as you worship Yaweh more", 3000 dead, and Yaweh still sends a plague to punish them further.

Quote:

So you are one of those who believes that all Catholics will go to hell because they pray to Mary and the saints, right?

Catholics don't follow the ten commandments.

RedSeaRoadkill · 28th January 2009, 01:53 PM

Jumping in here to hopefully clear a few things up....I was a practicing Orthodox Jew until quite recently, so I know of what I speak. Please don't bother pointing out the silliness/inanity/obvious-man-madeness of any of the following points; *we* know, but I'm merely explaining what the believers believe.

* Yes, of course the Rabbis have modified and expanded the scope of the laws of the Torah over the centuries. I imagine most religions do this to some extent, but Judaism has always been focused on the process of analysing and expounding on the 'word of god'. Jewish tradition has long maintained the notion that there is a bit of divine insight in every generation's sages (and that supernatural level of understanding the mind of god has been diminishing in each generation since the time of Moses). So if some rabbi added another layer of strictness to a rule, Judaism teaches that this is actually a revelation of what god wanted all along.

* Orthodox Jews *are* a tiny minority of worldwide Judaism, but it is undeniably the strain of the religion that is true to its roots, for whatever that's worth. Reform and Conservative Judaism are fairly recent modifications of what Jews historically were. That's not to say there weren't unobservant Jews throughout history -- of course they were, but they weren't self-justified as a branch of Judaism, they were simply off the wagon, so to speak.

* The Talmud clearly states that Jews are not allowed to even ENTER a house of worship that prays to another diety. However, there has been vigorous rabbinic debate over the centuries if Christianity entails praying to *another* diety, as the god of Jesus certainly *IS* the god of Abraham (et al). I believe the general consensus of rabbinical thought is that Christianity is not considered 'avodah zarah' (the hebrew term for a religion with a false god) for the various sins that incur the death penalty (I know, I know), but the laws errs on the side of strictness in other matters, such as entering a church. I remember as a child my family did not attend the wedding of a close business aquaintance of my father's as the ceremony was in a church, and we weren't allowed to enter.

* I am going to be charitable (just for this point) and assume that religious decisions are always made by strict adherence to dogmatic interpretation. I would therefore explain that a Rabbi (or any other Jew) is not allowed to enter a church, as explained above. But a priest or imam certainly accepts the validity of Judaism to some extent, as their beliefs are prediated on it. So a priest praying in a synogogue is just slumming with those who have not yet accepted Jesus, whereas the Rabbi going into a chuch would be supporting those who actively reject the word of god (as written quite explicitly in the Torah). I have never looked into seeing if they allow entrance to a mosque, but I'd bet the farm they don't. I don't think the 'idol' part of 'idolatry' matters all that much compared to the underlying apostasy.

* While Israel is a "Jewish" country, it is on the whole quite secular (I've lived there). The Orthodox Jews in Israel tend to live crowded together in only a few places, and they don't have much political clout with large issues (like national security and settlement activity) despite the picture the average American gets from the news. Strangely, however, they wield surprising clout when it comes to areas that affect them directly: army service exemptions, financial handouts (private school funding, etc), and official goverment stances on religious matters (eg, what kind of Jewish conversion is valid?). [I'm sure plenty of people have opinions on this issue, but if you want to discuss it further let's start a new thread.]

* I know of Rabbi Lookstein; he's at the left fringe of "Modern Orthodoxy", which is a made-up term describing Orthodox Jews who find that the reality of Orthodoxy is just too hard (it is), so they soften the rules just a tad, and give themselves a name to justify it (I live in a 'Modern Orthodox' community now).

It was very hard for me to face up to the fact that I didn't believe all the stuff I grew up steeped in. I was schooled in a 'black-hat' (ie, not "modern") orthodox environment throughout my childhood, and even had almost 6 years of post-high-school religious education. Do not underestimate the depth of belief these people have; it really is hard to appreciate if you haven't been there, but Orthodox Jews believe, I mean really BELIEVE all this stuff.

Darth Rotor · 28th January 2009, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis

And having just one tryst isn't adultery, right? You're still being 99% faithful, after all! Praying to another god is holding another god before Yaweh. Remember, he's a jealous god.

Rumor has it that it's the same God. Local deacon here even told me that last week: Jews and Muslims and Christians pray to the same God. They bicker about a bunch of details. This from an ordinated Catholic deacon who often teaches doctrine.

You might want to clue up.

@ pg: according to latest doctrine (you put two kids through CCD and see how much you have to discuss ...) is that praying to Mary is not praying to a God, it is a prayer to Mary in hopes she'll "put in a good word with The Big Guy" for ya, likewise with the Saints.

From the mouth of the local priest, ordained, and deacon, ordained.

Nitpicking, I know.

DR

NobbyNobbs · 28th January 2009, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

I don't see Christians as a threat. At least not anymore. I think that clearly ended with the Holocaust,

Clearly.

hgc · 28th January 2009, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by RedSeaRoadkill

Jumping in here to hopefully clear a few things up....I was a practicing Orthodox Jew until quite recently, so I know of what I speak. Please don't bother pointing out the silliness/inanity/obvious-man-madeness of any of the following points; *we* know, but I'm merely explaining what the believers believe.

...

Thanks for the great post and welcome to the forum.

I am reminded of a few things by all that you explained here. One is the documentary movie, Trembling Before God, which is about current and former Orthodox Jews who are homosexual. Many of them couldn't consider letting go of their religious devotion, no matter how thoroughly they are rejected by the only community where they feel at home. It was heartbreaking and also quite fascinating to see that level of devotion under great stress.

The best insight I ever got, as an outsider (Conservative Jew), into the Orthodox world is the books of Chaim Potok, and especially My Name is Asher Lev, one of the great 20th century American novels.

a_unique_person · 28th January 2009, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

If I needed a type specimen for "someone who can't distinguish between Jews and Israelis," you've just provided one.

You're right, I shouldn't have said that about the Jews. Hang on, I didn't, I referred to they, the RCA. If they don't support US aid to Israel, let me know about it.

As others have said, this is embarrassing, and it reminds me of the Pope welcoming back an active Holocaust denier into the fold.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=133739

or re-instating a Latin Mass that includes a prayer asks god for the conversion of Jews to Christians.

Slayhamlet · 28th January 2009, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

They'll take America's arms and money, they'll talk about what great allies they are, but they can't trust them enough to say a simple, non denominational prayer?

I'm pretty sure the Rabbinical Council of America isn't taking America's arms.

a_unique_person · 28th January 2009, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by Slayhamlet

I'm pretty sure the Rabbinical Council of America isn't taking America's arms.

[pedant] OK, they want America to supply Israel with aid and arms, but they aren't allowed to pray with them.[/pedant]

It's embarassing for them. Just like with the Pope, religious priorities make their followers look stupid. I grew up a Catholic, and I just sit back and wonder what is going through these guys heads when they make these decisions.

ponderingturtle · 29th January 2009, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by TsarBomba

Seriously? You don't understand why Jewish groups would have a problem with this? And why Christians would have not problem with their leaders going to Synagogues?

You can't let any other view but your own be seen as true or you will be leading people into damnation!

ponderingturtle · 29th January 2009, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis

And having just one tryst isn't adultery, right? You're still being 99% faithful, after all!

Well is she married? Adultery is only sleeping with a married woman.

ponderingturtle · 29th January 2009, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Rumor has it that it's the same God. Local deacon here even told me that last week: Jews and Muslims and Christians pray to the same God. They bicker about a bunch of details. This from an ordinated Catholic deacon who often teaches doctrine.

The Catholics don't seem to be very good and presenting a single consistent view about such things. I remember going to one debate were a Monsignor defined god as the mystery in the universe. Neatly ignoring any sort of anthropomorphizing or triumvirate god.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith needs to be more active at promoting the party line.

RedSeaRoadkill · 29th January 2009, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by hgc

....I am reminded of a few things by all that you explained here. One is the documentary movie, Trembling Before God, which is about current and former Orthodox Jews who are homosexual. Many of them couldn't consider letting go of their religious devotion, no matter how thoroughly they are rejected by the only community where they feel at home. It was heartbreaking and also quite fascinating to see that level of devotion under great stress.

The best insight I ever got, as an outsider (Conservative Jew), into the Orthodox world is the books of Chaim Potok, and especially My Name is Asher Lev, one of the great 20th century American novels.

I didn't see Trembling, but my wife did and told me it was excellent. I really should add it to my NetFlix queue....ok, done.

Potok wasn't just an excellent writer, he was particularly gifted at portraying the slice of Orthodoxy with which he was familiar; it's a bit dated now, but still about as good as it gets.

On a lighter note, check out Foreskin's Lament, a memoir of a gifted writer and his slide away from Orthodox Judaism. A little sad, but very, very funny.

MattusMaximus · 30th January 2009, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis

Catholics don't follow the ten commandments.

Which version of the Ten Commandments? Catholics have their own version, you know - just like they have their own version of the Bible.

a_unique_person · 30th January 2009, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

Which version of the Ten Commandments? Catholics have their own version, you know - just like they have their own version of the Bible.

That's right, the One True Bible.

DeusPhasmatis · 31st January 2009, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Rumor has it that it's the same God. Local deacon here even told me that last week: Jews and Muslims and Christians pray to the same God. They bicker about a bunch of details. This from an ordinated Catholic deacon who often teaches doctrine.

You might want to clue up.

It's a good thing this deacon is a rabbi steeped in rabbinical lore and an authority figure on rules interpretations for Jews.

You might want to clue up. Your (or this deacon's) is not the only interpretation.

25th January 2009, 11:43 AM	#2
TsarBomba One Damn Dirty Ape Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 5430 feet above you Posts: 796	From the original post: Quote: "The long-standing policy of the Rabbinical Council of America, in accordance with Jewish law, is that participation in a prayer service held in the sanctuary of a church is prohibited," the statement read. "Any member of the RCA who attends such a service does so in contravention of this policy and should not be perceived as representing the organization in any capacity." I'm sorry. What exactly do you have an objection to? I can think of lots of reasons why an organization like this would not want Rabbis praying in a church.
	__________________ Signature line? I don't need no stinking signature line!

25th January 2009, 11:45 AM	#3
TsarBomba One Damn Dirty Ape Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 5430 feet above you Posts: 796	From the original post: Quote: "The long-standing policy of the Rabbinical Council of America, in accordance with Jewish law, is that participation in a prayer service held in the sanctuary of a church is prohibited," the statement read. "Any member of the RCA who attends such a service does so in contravention of this policy and should not be perceived as representing the organization in any capacity." I'm sorry. What exactly do you have an objection to? I can think of lots of reasons why an organization like this would not want Rabbis praying in a church.
	__________________ Signature line? I don't need no stinking signature line!

25th January 2009, 11:50 AM	#4
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	christian priests, ministers, etc..are allowed to come to synagogues and pray. why should rabbis be any different? the message seems to be: "you are welcome to come to our holy places and pray..for we are the true faith. but our holy men are not allowed to go to your temples of idol worship and lies. and we certainly are not allowed to demean ourselves by praying with the likes of you". am i reading too much into this? i dont think i am.
	Last edited by Thunder; 25th January 2009 at 11:52 AM.

25th January 2009, 11:58 AM	#5
TsarBomba One Damn Dirty Ape Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 5430 feet above you Posts: 796	Seriously? You don't understand why Jewish groups would have a problem with this? And why Christians would have not problem with their leaders going to Synagogues? Oy Vey! I know that this may come as a shock to you--many Jews see Christianity as a threat. Something to do with continuous efforts to convert Jews. Something to do with deep seated fears from hundreds of years of persecution, pogroms, banishments, forced conversions, legal disabilities, anti-semitism, the Holocaust (which only ended 63 years ago), and so forth. If you understand that viewpoint, maybe you can understand why an Orthodox rabbinical group would not want a Rabbi to pray in a church.
	__________________ Signature line? I don't need no stinking signature line!

25th January 2009, 12:11 PM	#6
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	I don't see Christians as a threat. At least not anymore. I think that clearly ended with the Holocaust, when it became clear that Christian anti-Semitism was indeed contributing to much Jewish suffering. I of course understand why Jews would be mad at a Rabbi for praying with his fellow Americans in a church. But I think their reasons for being mad are outdated and it is time to evolve and move on. We can't live in the past forever. Do I think a Rabbi should say a clearly Christian prayer? Absolutely not. Not even the Lord's Prayer, which makes no specific references to Jesus. Saying some generic Judeo-Christian prayer like "Oh God, please protect and keep the United States from harm", is no big deal in my eyes. Can't we all just...get along and grow the hell up?
	Last edited by Thunder; 25th January 2009 at 12:13 PM.

25th January 2009, 08:03 AM	#1
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Rabbi attacked for praying with Obama http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057948.html Basically, they are condemning him for praying with his fellow Americans in a church. "How dare you pray with goys!!" They are basically saying.

25th January 2009, 06:53 PM	#7
TsarBomba One Damn Dirty Ape Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 5430 feet above you Posts: 796	Originally Posted by parky76 I don't see Christians as a threat. At least not anymore. I think that clearly ended with the Holocaust, when it became clear that Christian anti-Semitism was indeed contributing to much Jewish suffering. I of course understand why Jews would be mad at a Rabbi for praying with his fellow Americans in a church. But I think their reasons for being mad are outdated and it is time to evolve and move on. We can't live in the past forever. Do I think a Rabbi should say a clearly Christian prayer? Absolutely not. Not even the Lord's Prayer, which makes no specific references to Jesus. Saying some generic Judeo-Christian prayer like "Oh God, please protect and keep the United States from harm", is no big deal in my eyes. Can't we all just...get along and grow the hell up? As I read the article, they are merely pointing out that his attendance at this event was not in his official capacity as a representative of their group, nor did the group in any way endorse his attendance. I still don't see why you have a problem with that.
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26th January 2009, 05:23 AM	#8
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,327	Originally Posted by TsarBomba Seriously? You don't understand why Jewish groups would have a problem with this? And why Christians would have not problem with their leaders going to Synagogues? Oy Vey! I know that this may come as a shock to you--many Jews see Christianity as a threat. Something to do with continuous efforts to convert Jews. Something to do with deep seated fears from hundreds of years of persecution, pogroms, banishments, forced conversions, legal disabilities, anti-semitism, the Holocaust (which only ended 63 years ago), and so forth. If you understand that viewpoint, maybe you can understand why an Orthodox rabbinical group would not want a Rabbi to pray in a church. They'll take America's arms and money, they'll talk about what great allies they are, but they can't trust them enough to say a simple, non denominational prayer?
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

26th January 2009, 12:57 PM	#9
DeusPhasmatis Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 293	"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Praying in a house of worship that belongs to another god breaks the first commandment.
	__________________ "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." "Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking." -John Maynard Keynes I'm an evangelical empiricist and rationalist.

26th January 2009, 01:15 PM	#10
Vic Vega Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Cradle of Liberty Posts: 1,075	"Any member of the RCA who attends such a service does so in contravention of this policy and should not be perceived as representing the organization in any capacity." Wow! What a punishment. How will the Rabbi survive? Much ado about nothing...
	__________________ "The sleeping and the dead Are but as pictures. 'Tis the eye of childhood That fears a painted devil." --Shakespeare - Macbeth

26th January 2009, 01:18 PM	#11
Vic Vega Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Cradle of Liberty Posts: 1,075	Originally Posted by a_unique_person They'll take America's arms and money, they'll talk about what great allies they are, but they can't trust them enough to say a simple, non denominational prayer? Who is the "they" you are referring to? The policy is from the "Rabbinical Council of America". They're taking arms and money from the US Government???? I'll bet they'd be surprised to hear that.
	__________________ "The sleeping and the dead Are but as pictures. 'Tis the eye of childhood That fears a painted devil." --Shakespeare - Macbeth

26th January 2009, 01:39 PM	#12
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,069	Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Praying in a house of worship that belongs to another god breaks the first commandment. How so? If 99% of the time they pray in a synogogue, and only go to another churce 1%of the time, how is that "having other gods BEFORE me"? The big God gets the majority of the prayers, and therefore is #1 on the list. The commandment does not prohibit praying to other gods at all.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

26th January 2009, 02:47 PM	#13
DeusPhasmatis Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 293	Originally Posted by pgwenthold How so? If 99% of the time they pray in a synogogue, and only go to another churce 1%of the time, how is that "having other gods BEFORE me"? The big God gets the majority of the prayers, and therefore is #1 on the list. The commandment does not prohibit praying to other gods at all. And having just one tryst isn't adultery, right? You're still being 99% faithful, after all! Praying to another god is holding another god before Yaweh. Remember, he's a jealous god.
	__________________ "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." "Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking." -John Maynard Keynes I'm an evangelical empiricist and rationalist.

26th January 2009, 02:51 PM	#14
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by a_unique_person They'll take America's arms and money, they'll talk about what great allies they are, but they can't trust them enough to say a simple, non denominational prayer? If I needed a type specimen for "someone who can't distinguish between Jews and Israelis," you've just provided one.

26th January 2009, 03:16 PM	#15
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by drkitten If I needed a type specimen for "someone who can't distinguish between Jews and Israelis," you've just provided one. My synagogue flies an Israeli flag. On Rosh Hashanah we say a prayer for the welfare of the State of Israel. This is clearly a mixing of Jewish faith with Zionist politics.

26th January 2009, 05:11 PM	#16
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,014	This location-specific religious taboo in Judaism doesn't sound right me. I want to know the "law" that is being referred to here. Ever since the destruction of the temple, the proper location for daily prayers is anywhere 10 men can stand together.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

26th January 2009, 07:48 PM	#17
DeusPhasmatis Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 293	Originally Posted by hgc This location-specific religious taboo in Judaism doesn't sound right me. I want to know the "law" that is being referred to here. Ever since the destruction of the temple, the proper location for daily prayers is anywhere 10 men can stand together. The issue is that a church is a place of worship to a different god, and thus not kosher. Yaweh is a jerk. I'm surprised that this isn't common knowledge.
	__________________ "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." "Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking." -John Maynard Keynes I'm an evangelical empiricist and rationalist.

26th January 2009, 08:53 PM	#18
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,014	Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis The issue is that a church is a place of worship to a different god, and thus not kosher. Yaweh is a jerk. I'm surprised that this isn't common knowledge. Meh. That's a tenuous bridge to a law against worshipping in such a place. When someone starts telling me about laws, I want to know chapter and verse so that I can look it up myself. And the 1st commandment doesn't cover it in this case. Not saying there's no such restriction, but just that I never heard of it. Maybe it's in the Talmud.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

27th January 2009, 03:17 AM	#19
linusrichard Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Lansing, Mich. Posts: 2,665	Originally Posted by parky76 christian priests, ministers, etc..are allowed to come to synagogues and pray. why should rabbis be any different? Christian priests, ministers, etc. are also allowed to eat cheeseburgers and shrimp cocktail. Is it that weird that different religions have different rules? Quote: the message seems to be: "you are welcome to come to our holy places and pray..for we are the true faith. but our holy men are not allowed to go to your temples of idol worship and lies. and we certainly are not allowed to demean ourselves by praying with the likes of you". It's religion, though, right? - I mean, the whole thing is premised on having some access to absolute truth, so to be consistent, anyone who believes differently believes that which is not true, i.e., lies. Quote: am i reading too much into this? i dont think i am. I don't know if you're reading too much into this, but what you are reading into it isn't really that big of a deal, as far as I can tell. Originally Posted by parky76 I of course understand why Jews would be mad at a Rabbi for praying with his fellow Americans in a church. But I think their reasons for being mad are outdated and it is time to evolve and move on. We can't live in the past forever. As far as I'm concerned, you can apply that statement to religion in general. Outdated, time to evolve and move on, can't live in the past forever. Check, check, check. Quote: Do I think a Rabbi should say a clearly Christian prayer? Absolutely not. Not even the Lord's Prayer, which makes no specific references to Jesus. Saying some generic Judeo-Christian prayer like "Oh God, please protect and keep the United States from harm", is no big deal in my eyes. How are you choosing to draw this particular line in this particular place? And how is the process by which you choose to draw this line there any better than the process by which the Rabbinical Council of America chooses to draw the line where they do? Quote: Can't we all just...get along and grow the hell up? It's religion. What are you gonna do? Originally Posted by parky76 My synagogue flies an Israeli flag. On Rosh Hashanah we say a prayer for the welfare of the State of Israel. This is clearly a mixing of Jewish faith with Zionist politics. I don't think anyone will argue with you there. The issue was the confusion of Jews with Israelis - or even better - the confusion of Jews with the Israeli government. Despite what your synagogue does, the Rabbinical Council of America does not receive arms or money from the U.S. government.

27th January 2009, 04:08 AM	#20
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,297	Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Praying in a house of worship that belongs to another god breaks the first commandment. Fail.
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27th January 2009, 06:49 AM	#21
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,069	Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis And having just one tryst isn't adultery, right? You're still being 99% faithful, after all! My marriage vows did not say that my wife would be my #1 girl. I vowed to be exclusive. The first commandment does not prohibit worshiping other gods. Quote: Praying to another god is holding another god before Yaweh. Remember, he's a jealous god. So you are one of those who believes that all Catholics will go to hell because they pray to Mary and the saints, right?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

27th January 2009, 04:02 PM	#22
Lucky Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 1,196	Some interesting comments to the Haaretz article – most of them scathing about the orthodox rabbis. A couple of them suggest that this 'law' derives from the prohibition on idolatry, because of the images, statues etc. in churches, and that's why it doesn't apply to mosques. I think this probably is the explanation. In typical orthodox fashion, a biblical prohibition has been interpreted, distorted and stretched to the limits of the imaginations of generations of rabbis, and beyond all bounds of reason. I agree with parky on this one (). OK, so the 'punishment' is a little rap on the knuckles (and, believe me, I do appreciate the difference between Judaism and Islam in the allowable sanctions for a 'transgression'). Even so, it's stupid, mean-spirited and indefensible, and puts Judaism in a bad light. But ... parky, you're still doing this thing of equating Jews, Judaism, rabbis etc. with orthodoxy. It's factually incorrect. The orthodox are not 'the Jews'. They are a minority of Jews in your country. In the UK and Europe the mainstream (non black-hat) orthodox are the majority of Jews, but they are more like your Conservatives than your modern orthodox, and tend not to commit these public embarrassments.
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28th January 2009, 10:52 AM	#23
DeusPhasmatis Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 293	Originally Posted by pgwenthold My marriage vows did not say that my wife would be my #1 girl. I vowed to be exclusive. The first commandment does not prohibit worshiping other gods. That's what the first commandment is: a law of exclusive worship. Exodus 23:13 "Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips." Of course, there's the wonderful Exodus 32, where Moses has a group of the Hebrews kill 3000 others for worshipping a golden calf. Not "Oh, that's fine as long as you worship Yaweh more", 3000 dead, and Yaweh still sends a plague to punish them further. Quote: So you are one of those who believes that all Catholics will go to hell because they pray to Mary and the saints, right? Catholics don't follow the ten commandments.
	__________________ "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." "Words ought to be a little wild for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking." -John Maynard Keynes I'm an evangelical empiricist and rationalist.

28th January 2009, 01:53 PM	#24
RedSeaRoadkill Student Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 39	Jumping in here to hopefully clear a few things up....I was a practicing Orthodox Jew until quite recently, so I know of what I speak. Please don't bother pointing out the silliness/inanity/obvious-man-madeness of any of the following points; we know, but I'm merely explaining what the believers believe. * Yes, of course the Rabbis have modified and expanded the scope of the laws of the Torah over the centuries. I imagine most religions do this to some extent, but Judaism has always been focused on the process of analysing and expounding on the 'word of god'. Jewish tradition has long maintained the notion that there is a bit of divine insight in every generation's sages (and that supernatural level of understanding the mind of god has been diminishing in each generation since the time of Moses). So if some rabbi added another layer of strictness to a rule, Judaism teaches that this is actually a revelation of what god wanted all along. * Orthodox Jews are a tiny minority of worldwide Judaism, but it is undeniably the strain of the religion that is true to its roots, for whatever that's worth. Reform and Conservative Judaism are fairly recent modifications of what Jews historically were. That's not to say there weren't unobservant Jews throughout history -- of course they were, but they weren't self-justified as a branch of Judaism, they were simply off the wagon, so to speak. * The Talmud clearly states that Jews are not allowed to even ENTER a house of worship that prays to another diety. However, there has been vigorous rabbinic debate over the centuries if Christianity entails praying to another diety, as the god of Jesus certainly IS the god of Abraham (et al). I believe the general consensus of rabbinical thought is that Christianity is not considered 'avodah zarah' (the hebrew term for a religion with a false god) for the various sins that incur the death penalty (I know, I know), but the laws errs on the side of strictness in other matters, such as entering a church. I remember as a child my family did not attend the wedding of a close business aquaintance of my father's as the ceremony was in a church, and we weren't allowed to enter. * I am going to be charitable (just for this point) and assume that religious decisions are always made by strict adherence to dogmatic interpretation. I would therefore explain that a Rabbi (or any other Jew) is not allowed to enter a church, as explained above. But a priest or imam certainly accepts the validity of Judaism to some extent, as their beliefs are prediated on it. So a priest praying in a synogogue is just slumming with those who have not yet accepted Jesus, whereas the Rabbi going into a chuch would be supporting those who actively reject the word of god (as written quite explicitly in the Torah). I have never looked into seeing if they allow entrance to a mosque, but I'd bet the farm they don't. I don't think the 'idol' part of 'idolatry' matters all that much compared to the underlying apostasy. * While Israel is a "Jewish" country, it is on the whole quite secular (I've lived there). The Orthodox Jews in Israel tend to live crowded together in only a few places, and they don't have much political clout with large issues (like national security and settlement activity) despite the picture the average American gets from the news. Strangely, however, they wield surprising clout when it comes to areas that affect them directly: army service exemptions, financial handouts (private school funding, etc), and official goverment stances on religious matters (eg, what kind of Jewish conversion is valid?). [I'm sure plenty of people have opinions on this issue, but if you want to discuss it further let's start a new thread.] * I know of Rabbi Lookstein; he's at the left fringe of "Modern Orthodoxy", which is a made-up term describing Orthodox Jews who find that the reality of Orthodoxy is just too hard (it is), so they soften the rules just a tad, and give themselves a name to justify it (I live in a 'Modern Orthodox' community now). It was very hard for me to face up to the fact that I didn't believe all the stuff I grew up steeped in. I was schooled in a 'black-hat' (ie, not "modern") orthodox environment throughout my childhood, and even had almost 6 years of post-high-school religious education. Do not underestimate the depth of belief these people have; it really is hard to appreciate if you haven't been there, but Orthodox Jews believe, I mean really BELIEVE all this stuff.
RedSeaRoadkill Student Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 39

28th January 2009, 03:43 PM	#25
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,257	Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis And having just one tryst isn't adultery, right? You're still being 99% faithful, after all! Praying to another god is holding another god before Yaweh. Remember, he's a jealous god. Rumor has it that it's the same God. Local deacon here even told me that last week: Jews and Muslims and Christians pray to the same God. They bicker about a bunch of details. This from an ordinated Catholic deacon who often teaches doctrine. You might want to clue up. @ pg: according to latest doctrine (you put two kids through CCD and see how much you have to discuss ...) is that praying to Mary is not praying to a God, it is a prayer to Mary in hopes she'll "put in a good word with The Big Guy" for ya, likewise with the Saints. From the mouth of the local priest, ordained, and deacon, ordained. Nitpicking, I know. DR
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28th January 2009, 04:13 PM	#26
NobbyNobbs Gazerbeam's Protege Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The Mended Drum Posts: 5,630	Originally Posted by parky76 I don't see Christians as a threat. At least not anymore. I think that clearly ended with the Holocaust, Clearly.
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28th January 2009, 06:03 PM	#27
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,014	Originally Posted by RedSeaRoadkill Jumping in here to hopefully clear a few things up....I was a practicing Orthodox Jew until quite recently, so I know of what I speak. Please don't bother pointing out the silliness/inanity/obvious-man-madeness of any of the following points; we know, but I'm merely explaining what the believers believe. ... Thanks for the great post and welcome to the forum. I am reminded of a few things by all that you explained here. One is the documentary movie, Trembling Before God, which is about current and former Orthodox Jews who are homosexual. Many of them couldn't consider letting go of their religious devotion, no matter how thoroughly they are rejected by the only community where they feel at home. It was heartbreaking and also quite fascinating to see that level of devotion under great stress. The best insight I ever got, as an outsider (Conservative Jew), into the Orthodox world is the books of Chaim Potok, and especially My Name is Asher Lev, one of the great 20th century American novels.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

28th January 2009, 06:44 PM	#28
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,327	Originally Posted by drkitten If I needed a type specimen for "someone who can't distinguish between Jews and Israelis," you've just provided one. You're right, I shouldn't have said that about the Jews. Hang on, I didn't, I referred to they, the RCA. If they don't support US aid to Israel, let me know about it. As others have said, this is embarrassing, and it reminds me of the Pope welcoming back an active Holocaust denier into the fold. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=133739 or re-instating a Latin Mass that includes a prayer asks god for the conversion of Jews to Christians.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

28th January 2009, 08:06 PM	#29
Slayhamlet Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,427	Originally Posted by a_unique_person They'll take America's arms and money, they'll talk about what great allies they are, but they can't trust them enough to say a simple, non denominational prayer? I'm pretty sure the Rabbinical Council of America isn't taking America's arms.

28th January 2009, 08:11 PM	#30
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,327	Originally Posted by Slayhamlet I'm pretty sure the Rabbinical Council of America isn't taking America's arms. [pedant] OK, they want America to supply Israel with aid and arms, but they aren't allowed to pray with them.[/pedant] It's embarassing for them. Just like with the Pope, religious priorities make their followers look stupid. I grew up a Catholic, and I just sit back and wonder what is going through these guys heads when they make these decisions.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

29th January 2009, 07:03 AM	#31
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,425	Originally Posted by TsarBomba Seriously? You don't understand why Jewish groups would have a problem with this? And why Christians would have not problem with their leaders going to Synagogues? You can't let any other view but your own be seen as true or you will be leading people into damnation!
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29th January 2009, 07:08 AM	#32
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,425	Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis And having just one tryst isn't adultery, right? You're still being 99% faithful, after all! Well is she married? Adultery is only sleeping with a married woman.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

29th January 2009, 07:14 AM	#33
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,425	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Rumor has it that it's the same God. Local deacon here even told me that last week: Jews and Muslims and Christians pray to the same God. They bicker about a bunch of details. This from an ordinated Catholic deacon who often teaches doctrine. The Catholics don't seem to be very good and presenting a single consistent view about such things. I remember going to one debate were a Monsignor defined god as the mystery in the universe. Neatly ignoring any sort of anthropomorphizing or triumvirate god. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith needs to be more active at promoting the party line.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

29th January 2009, 10:36 AM	#34
RedSeaRoadkill Student Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 39	Originally Posted by hgc ....I am reminded of a few things by all that you explained here. One is the documentary movie, Trembling Before God, which is about current and former Orthodox Jews who are homosexual. Many of them couldn't consider letting go of their religious devotion, no matter how thoroughly they are rejected by the only community where they feel at home. It was heartbreaking and also quite fascinating to see that level of devotion under great stress. The best insight I ever got, as an outsider (Conservative Jew), into the Orthodox world is the books of Chaim Potok, and especially My Name is Asher Lev, one of the great 20th century American novels. I didn't see Trembling, but my wife did and told me it was excellent. I really should add it to my NetFlix queue....ok, done. Potok wasn't just an excellent writer, he was particularly gifted at portraying the slice of Orthodoxy with which he was familiar; it's a bit dated now, but still about as good as it gets. On a lighter note, check out Foreskin's Lament, a memoir of a gifted writer and his slide away from Orthodox Judaism. A little sad, but very, very funny.
RedSeaRoadkill Student Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 39

30th January 2009, 09:11 PM	#35
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,175	Originally Posted by DeusPhasmatis Catholics don't follow the ten commandments. Which version of the Ten Commandments? Catholics have their own version, you know - just like they have their own version of the Bible.
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