Nuclear-Free Library Zone

BPSCG · 29th January 2009, 09:05 AM

Link.

Quote:

Berkeley's public library will face a showdown with the city's Peace and Justice Commission tonight over whether a service contract for the book check-out system violates the city's nuclear-free ordinance.

Quote:

The dispute centers on a five-year, $63,000 contract the library wants to sign with 3M, an international technology company based in Minnesota, to service five scanner machines library patrons use to check out books.

But 3M, a company with operations in 60 countries, refused to sign Berkeley's nuclear-free disclosure form as required by the Nuclear Free Berkeley Act passed by voters in 1986.

As a result, the library's self-checkout machines have not been serviced in about six months. Library officials say 3M is the only company authorized by the manufacturer to fix the machines, which were purchased in 2004.

The library asked the Peace and Justice Commission for a waiver, but at its Jan. 5 meeting the commission voted 7-1, with two abstentions, to reject the request. The library is now appealing the decision to the City Council.

Gord_in_Toronto · 29th January 2009, 09:54 AM

Does it really get more ridiculous than this?

Funniest thing I have seen in a week (and this includes PETA and their "sea kittens").

ravdin · 29th January 2009, 10:58 AM

Oh brother. I was going to post that myself, but I don't want to be the source of "wacky Berkeley news stories".

The city council approved a compromise two year contract with 3M yesterday. I wrote to my representative and asked him to vote in favor of common sense (meaning, of course, for the libraries), but he was one of the dissenters against the compromise. As a Berkeley resident, I will take full responsibility if there is a nuclear war in the meantime.

Quote:

Dear Council Member Arreguin,

I am writing to you regarding the city's proposed contract with 3M to maintain the libraries' automated checkout machines. I urge you to vote for common sense- and by that I mean in favor of the libraries. Berkeley's residents deserve decent working services in return for our hard earned taxpayer dollars, not political grandstanding and hyperbole about how doing business with 3M will lead to nuclear war.

Very truly yours,

Bill Ravdin

BPSCG · 29th January 2009, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by ravdin

As a Berkeley resident, I will take full responsibility if there is a nuclear war in the meantime.

Wow - a confession already. And we didn't even have to waterboard you!

LibraryLady · 29th January 2009, 11:26 AM

I........

Um..................

Well.................

Gha............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BPSCG · 29th January 2009, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by LibraryLady

I........

Um..................

Well.................

Gha............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Har! I was wondering when you were going to show up!

uruk · 29th January 2009, 11:31 AM

Is it me or is California getting loopier by the year? Is it the water?

Sherman Bay · 29th January 2009, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by uruk

Is it me or is California getting loopier by the year? Is it the water?

No, "It's the water" is Oregon. California is more like granola; whatever isn't fruits or nuts is flakes.

ravdin · 29th January 2009, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by uruk

Is it me or is California getting loopier by the year? Is it the water?

California's a big place. We have this kind of loopiness in Berkeley, as well as the controversy last year over the Marine recruitment center. This is not typical for the entire state. California voters approved Prop 8, also backward thinking but of a different kind. Berkeley is of course overwhelmingly opposed to Prop 8, so I'm not out of step here on every issue.

I know a couple of other library ladies in Berkeley, who were none too thrilled to learn about this latest local development.

Dr H · 29th January 2009, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Sherman Bay

No, "It's the water" is Oregon. California is more like granola; whatever isn't fruits or nuts is flakes.

Actually "it's the water" is Washington, c/o Olympia beer.

uruk · 29th January 2009, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by ravdin

California's a big place. We have this kind of loopiness in Berkeley, as well as the controversy last year over the Marine recruitment center. This is not typical for the entire state. California voters approved Prop 8, also backward thinking but of a different kind. Berkeley is of course overwhelmingly opposed to Prop 8, so I'm not out of step here on every issue.

I know a couple of other library ladies in Berkeley, who were none too thrilled to learn about this latest local development.

I know I was making a generalization. I'm from Texas and there is no end to the generalizations aimed at Texans. It just seems that it is the loud mouthed yahoos that get noticed the most and give the rest of us a bad rep.

I was just noting that California seems to have quite a "unique" crop of yahoos.

ravdin · 29th January 2009, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by uruk

I know I was making a generalization. I'm from Texas and there is no end to the generalizations aimed at Texans. It just seems that it is the loud mouthed yahoos that get noticed the most and give the rest of us a bad rep.

I was just noting that California seems to have quite a "unique" crop of yahoos.

True enough, and believe me, no offense taken (I make fun of Texans a lot so I wouldn't have a leg to stand on anyway).

dudalb · 29th January 2009, 01:35 PM

As a Sacramentan, I am worried about the looniness from Berkeley managing to somehow get over the Coastal Range and infect us.

cwalner · 29th January 2009, 01:40 PM

About 8 years ago my dad moved from Orange County, CA to San Francisco, CA. Without changing a single political viewpoint, he went from being a token liberal to a token conservative overnight.

ravdin · 29th January 2009, 01:54 PM

As I am fond of saying, a "conservative" in Berkeley is anyone to the right of Mao.

Sherman Bay · 29th January 2009, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Dr H

Actually "it's the water" is Washington, c/o Olympia beer.

Well, I was close. But what do I know? I'm an ex-Berkeleyite, ex-Los Angelino, former Gypsy Boots fan, a Confederate General from Big Sur refugee, now a cheesehead.

KingMerv00 · 29th January 2009, 06:48 PM

There has to be a rational explanation for this. I can't handle the alternative. What's on this disclosure form?

Edit: Think I found it here.

I guess 3M works with nukes every once in a while and that the statute is overly broad.

Gord_in_Toronto · 29th January 2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

"Work for nuclear weapons" is any work the purpose of which is the development, testing, production, maintenance or storage of nuclear weapons or the components of nuclear weapons; or any secret or classified research or evaluation of nuclear weapons; or any operation, management or administration of such work.

"Nuclear weapon" is any device, the intended explosion of which results from the energy released by reactions involving atomic nuclei, either fission or fusion or both. This definition of nuclear weapons includes the means of transporting, guiding, propelling or triggering the weapon if and only if such means is destroyed or rendered useless in the normal propelling, triggering, or detonation of the weapon.

"Component of a nuclear weapon" is any device, radioactive or non-radioactive, the primary intended function of which is to contribute to the operation of a nuclear weapon (or be a part of a nuclear weapon)

So, if 3M sells a single floppy disk to a company that is anyway involved in thinking about a "Nuclear weapon", that's game over?

BPSCG · 29th January 2009, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

There has to be a rational explanation for this.

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

So, if 3M sells a single floppy disk to a company that is anyway involved in thinking about a "Nuclear weapon", that's game over?

Why are y'all so surprised? This is Berkeley you're talking about. Code Pink Central.

What I find surprising is that after all the time he's spent living there, ravdin hasn't tried to pull his head off his shoulders with his bare hands. The Democratic People's Republic of Alexandria, Virginia, which passed a resolution a few years ago calling for the repeal of the USA Patriot Act (during which Mayor William Euille and much of the Alexandria City Council demonstrated they hadn't the slightest idea what they didn't like about the act) is a right-wing neocon haven compared to Berkeley, and I just about have a stroke every time I open the Alexandria Gazette Packet, the weekly cheerleader for the local left-wing politics. If ravdin doesn't literally take up his sword and slay every time he goes outside, he's by far a better man than I am.

KingMerv00 · 29th January 2009, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Why are y'all so surprised?

Not really, but that does stop me from being boggled.

fullflavormenthol · 29th January 2009, 08:05 PM

This is why I basically put California on a list of States I don't want to actually live in, and Berkley and San Francisco as cities I never want to even visit.

KingMerv00 · 29th January 2009, 08:08 PM

"Work for nuclear weapons"...what an odd legal phrasing:

Modified · 29th January 2009, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

So, if 3M sells a single floppy disk to a company that is anyway involved in thinking about a "Nuclear weapon", that's game over?

That wouldn't be my interpretation of "primary intended function", but the term is vague.

illumino · 29th January 2009, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Modified

That wouldn't be my interpretation of "primary intended function", but the term is vague.

3M has their hands in many things, its very likely that they may hold government contracts somehow relating to nuclear devices. Also, parts are not always contracted specifically for a particular piece government equipment, especially lately with the DoD push to use more Commerical Off-The Shelf (COTS) items to reduce procurement costs. I work for the US DoD and we use many items that are not specifically designed for government equipment. Many items used in our nuclear systems are certified to be a high quality, but are not necessarily designed for nuclear components.

ravdin · 29th January 2009, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

What I find surprising is that after all the time he's spent living there, ravdin hasn't tried to pull his head off his shoulders with his bare hands.

It's true that while Berkeley can be a nice place to live (great food, 68 degree weather in January), I can get pretty worked up sometimes about the fools we've entrusted to run our local government. But then I think: this is my town. Am I going to be run off by a bunch of hippies? Is Code Pink really too much for me to handle? Maybe someday I'll have to conclude that yes, there's no place for me in Berkeley and I should leave it for the peaceniks and moochers. But since I'm going to be a curmudgeon just about anywhere, at least for today it might as well be here.

Sherman Bay · 30th January 2009, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by ravdin

It's true that while Berkeley can be a nice place to live (great food, 68 degree weather in January), I can get pretty worked up sometimes about the fools we've entrusted to run our local government. But then I think: this is my town.

Then why don't you run for council office?

BPSCG · 30th January 2009, 05:49 AM

Quote:

It's true that while Berkeley can be a nice place to live (great food, 68 degree weather in January), I can get pretty worked up sometimes about the fools we've entrusted to run our local government. But then I think: this is my town.

Originally Posted by Sherman Bay

Then why don't you run for council office?

I suspect there are plenty of other exercises in utter futility that don't require nearly the investment of time, money, and emotional anguish.

Arguing with some of the more extreme nutters on this forum comes most immediately to mind.

Gord_in_Toronto · 30th January 2009, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Modified

That wouldn't be my interpretation of "primary intended function", but the term is vague.

Having read over the definitions from the disclosure I posted earlier about six times in an attempt to truly understand, I think that, given its lack of clarity, just about any activity could be read into it. Not drafted by a lawyer fer shure.

ravdin · 30th January 2009, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Sherman Bay

Then why don't you run for council office?

Ha! I wouldn't get elected dogcatcher around here. Although it could be fun to run on the "shut down People's Park" platform....

dudalb · 30th January 2009, 11:17 AM

I have a theory that one problem Berkely has is that a good percentage of the voters are students who know they are only going to be there for a few years, and don't give a damn about the long term good for the city, and elect ideologues who really care nothing about running the city on a realistic basis, only about peddling their ideology.

WildCat · 30th January 2009, 11:32 AM

Really, couldn't you pretty much shut down Berkeley altogether with that stupid rule? I'm sure every computer/computer parts manufacturer has their product used in some way in nuke programs, as well as office furniture manufacturers, office product manufacturers, etc etc. I bet there's Bic pens in use in the DOD for example.

Dr H · 30th January 2009, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

There has to be a rational explanation for this. I can't handle the alternative. What's on this disclosure form?

Edit: Think I found it here.

I guess 3M works with nukes every once in a while and that the statute is overly broad.

Y'know, this conjures up a rather disturbing image of nuclear weapons held together with Scotch-brand cellophane tape...

ravdin · 30th January 2009, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I have a theory that one problem Berkely has is that a good percentage of the voters are students who know they are only going to be there for a few years, and don't give a damn about the long term good for the city, and elect ideologues who really care nothing about running the city on a realistic basis, only about peddling their ideology.

I don't agree. The students are concentrated near campus, and in any case I don't think they take much interest in local politics. I think it's the long term residents who are voting in the radical left wingers. Many of them have high ideals but they don't have to live near grubby places like People's Park.

Originally Posted by WildCat

Really, couldn't you pretty much shut down Berkeley altogether with that stupid rule? I'm sure every computer/computer parts manufacturer has their product used in some way in nuke programs, as well as office furniture manufacturers, office product manufacturers, etc etc. I bet there's Bic pens in use in the DOD for example.

Probably so. The ruling against 3M is so arbitrary that it suggests that the city leaders aren't antinuclear as much as they are anticorporate.

illumino · 30th January 2009, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Really, couldn't you pretty much shut down Berkeley altogether with that stupid rule? I'm sure every computer/computer parts manufacturer has their product used in some way in nuke programs, as well as office furniture manufacturers, office product manufacturers, etc etc. I bet there's Bic pens in use in the DOD for example.

Actually we use Skilcraft pens, quality blind-made products

fullflavormenthol · 30th January 2009, 05:44 PM

I could imagine people actually moving to Berkley, maybe those "we're moving to Canada" people that couldn't make the transition. I mean here in Missouri I am considered a Marxist (I'm actually a libertarian, go figure) but in Berkley I would be Bill O'Reilly to those people. Not anything against the place, but it seems from what I am able to read that common sense, at least to me, is very much gone from that place.

Nevertheless, I suppose it is good for different cities to represent different ideals. It allows us all to decide where to live.....unless someone offers us a good job there, and then we just have to deal with it I supppose.

29th January 2009, 09:05 AM	#1
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Nuclear-Free Library Zone Link. Quote: Berkeley's public library will face a showdown with the city's Peace and Justice Commission tonight over whether a service contract for the book check-out system violates the city's nuclear-free ordinance. Quote: The dispute centers on a five-year, $63,000 contract the library wants to sign with 3M, an international technology company based in Minnesota, to service five scanner machines library patrons use to check out books. But 3M, a company with operations in 60 countries, refused to sign Berkeley's nuclear-free disclosure form as required by the Nuclear Free Berkeley Act passed by voters in 1986. As a result, the library's self-checkout machines have not been serviced in about six months. Library officials say 3M is the only company authorized by the manufacturer to fix the machines, which were purchased in 2004. The library asked the Peace and Justice Commission for a waiver, but at its Jan. 5 meeting the commission voted 7-1, with two abstentions, to reject the request. The library is now appealing the decision to the City Council.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

29th January 2009, 09:54 AM	#2
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,411	Does it really get more ridiculous than this? Funniest thing I have seen in a week (and this includes PETA and their "sea kittens").
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

29th January 2009, 10:58 AM	#3
ravdin Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,555	Oh brother. I was going to post that myself, but I don't want to be the source of "wacky Berkeley news stories". The city council approved a compromise two year contract with 3M yesterday. I wrote to my representative and asked him to vote in favor of common sense (meaning, of course, for the libraries), but he was one of the dissenters against the compromise. As a Berkeley resident, I will take full responsibility if there is a nuclear war in the meantime. Quote: Dear Council Member Arreguin, I am writing to you regarding the city's proposed contract with 3M to maintain the libraries' automated checkout machines. I urge you to vote for common sense- and by that I mean in favor of the libraries. Berkeley's residents deserve decent working services in return for our hard earned taxpayer dollars, not political grandstanding and hyperbole about how doing business with 3M will lead to nuclear war. Very truly yours, Bill Ravdin
	__________________ If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak. -Jayne Cobb Believe what you're told. There would be chaos if everyone thought for themselves. -Top Dog slogan Last edited by ravdin; 29th January 2009 at 11:01 AM.

29th January 2009, 11:19 AM	#4
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by ravdin As a Berkeley resident, I will take full responsibility if there is a nuclear war in the meantime. Wow - a confession already. And we didn't even have to waterboard you!
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

29th January 2009, 11:26 AM	#5
LibraryLady ...but not JUST a LibraryLady Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Building a house in the common ground Posts: 13,067	I........ Um.................. Well................. Gha............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
	__________________ What would Hüsker Dü? I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about. Mildred Loving

29th January 2009, 11:30 AM	#6
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by LibraryLady I........ Um.................. Well................. Gha............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Har! I was wondering when you were going to show up!
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

29th January 2009, 11:31 AM	#7
uruk Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 5,313	Is it me or is California getting loopier by the year? Is it the water?
	__________________ Fourscore and seven years ago I tapped yo mama in a log cabin! Abe Lincoln

29th January 2009, 11:40 AM	#8
Sherman Bay Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,074	Originally Posted by uruk Is it me or is California getting loopier by the year? Is it the water? No, "It's the water" is Oregon. California is more like granola; whatever isn't fruits or nuts is flakes.

29th January 2009, 11:55 AM	#9
ravdin Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by uruk Is it me or is California getting loopier by the year? Is it the water? California's a big place. We have this kind of loopiness in Berkeley, as well as the controversy last year over the Marine recruitment center. This is not typical for the entire state. California voters approved Prop 8, also backward thinking but of a different kind. Berkeley is of course overwhelmingly opposed to Prop 8, so I'm not out of step here on every issue. I know a couple of other library ladies in Berkeley, who were none too thrilled to learn about this latest local development.
	__________________ If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak. -Jayne Cobb Believe what you're told. There would be chaos if everyone thought for themselves. -Top Dog slogan

29th January 2009, 12:13 PM	#10
Dr H Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 818	Originally Posted by Sherman Bay No, "It's the water" is Oregon. California is more like granola; whatever isn't fruits or nuts is flakes. Actually "it's the water" is Washington, c/o Olympia beer.
	__________________ Dr H "I have nothing to say and I am saying it and that is poetry." -- John Cage

29th January 2009, 12:14 PM	#11
uruk Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 5,313	Originally Posted by ravdin California's a big place. We have this kind of loopiness in Berkeley, as well as the controversy last year over the Marine recruitment center. This is not typical for the entire state. California voters approved Prop 8, also backward thinking but of a different kind. Berkeley is of course overwhelmingly opposed to Prop 8, so I'm not out of step here on every issue. I know a couple of other library ladies in Berkeley, who were none too thrilled to learn about this latest local development. I know I was making a generalization. I'm from Texas and there is no end to the generalizations aimed at Texans. It just seems that it is the loud mouthed yahoos that get noticed the most and give the rest of us a bad rep. I was just noting that California seems to have quite a "unique" crop of yahoos.
	__________________ Fourscore and seven years ago I tapped yo mama in a log cabin! Abe Lincoln

29th January 2009, 01:31 PM	#12
ravdin Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by uruk I know I was making a generalization. I'm from Texas and there is no end to the generalizations aimed at Texans. It just seems that it is the loud mouthed yahoos that get noticed the most and give the rest of us a bad rep. I was just noting that California seems to have quite a "unique" crop of yahoos. True enough, and believe me, no offense taken (I make fun of Texans a lot so I wouldn't have a leg to stand on anyway).
	__________________ If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak. -Jayne Cobb Believe what you're told. There would be chaos if everyone thought for themselves. -Top Dog slogan

29th January 2009, 01:35 PM	#13
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,782	As a Sacramentan, I am worried about the looniness from Berkeley managing to somehow get over the Coastal Range and infect us.

29th January 2009, 01:40 PM	#14
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,693	About 8 years ago my dad moved from Orange County, CA to San Francisco, CA. Without changing a single political viewpoint, he went from being a token liberal to a token conservative overnight.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

29th January 2009, 01:54 PM	#15
ravdin Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,555	As I am fond of saying, a "conservative" in Berkeley is anyone to the right of Mao.
	__________________ If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak. -Jayne Cobb Believe what you're told. There would be chaos if everyone thought for themselves. -Top Dog slogan

29th January 2009, 06:36 PM	#16
Sherman Bay Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,074	Originally Posted by Dr H Actually "it's the water" is Washington, c/o Olympia beer. Well, I was close. But what do I know? I'm an ex-Berkeleyite, ex-Los Angelino, former Gypsy Boots fan, a Confederate General from Big Sur refugee, now a cheesehead.

29th January 2009, 06:48 PM	#17
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	There has to be a rational explanation for this. I can't handle the alternative. What's on this disclosure form? Edit: Think I found it here. I guess 3M works with nukes every once in a while and that the statute is overly broad.
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust? Last edited by KingMerv00; 29th January 2009 at 06:52 PM.

29th January 2009, 07:09 PM	#18
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,411	Quote: "Work for nuclear weapons" is any work the purpose of which is the development, testing, production, maintenance or storage of nuclear weapons or the components of nuclear weapons; or any secret or classified research or evaluation of nuclear weapons; or any operation, management or administration of such work. "Nuclear weapon" is any device, the intended explosion of which results from the energy released by reactions involving atomic nuclei, either fission or fusion or both. This definition of nuclear weapons includes the means of transporting, guiding, propelling or triggering the weapon if and only if such means is destroyed or rendered useless in the normal propelling, triggering, or detonation of the weapon. "Component of a nuclear weapon" is any device, radioactive or non-radioactive, the primary intended function of which is to contribute to the operation of a nuclear weapon (or be a part of a nuclear weapon) So, if 3M sells a single floppy disk to a company that is anyway involved in thinking about a "Nuclear weapon", that's game over?
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

29th January 2009, 07:29 PM	#19
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 There has to be a rational explanation for this. Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto So, if 3M sells a single floppy disk to a company that is anyway involved in thinking about a "Nuclear weapon", that's game over? Why are y'all so surprised? This is Berkeley you're talking about. Code Pink Central. What I find surprising is that after all the time he's spent living there, ravdin hasn't tried to pull his head off his shoulders with his bare hands. The Democratic People's Republic of Alexandria, Virginia, which passed a resolution a few years ago calling for the repeal of the USA Patriot Act (during which Mayor William Euille and much of the Alexandria City Council demonstrated they hadn't the slightest idea what they didn't like about the act) is a right-wing neocon haven compared to Berkeley, and I just about have a stroke every time I open the Alexandria Gazette Packet, the weekly cheerleader for the local left-wing politics. If ravdin doesn't literally take up his sword and slay every time he goes outside, he's by far a better man than I am.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

29th January 2009, 08:02 PM	#20
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by BPSCG Why are y'all so surprised? Not really, but that does stop me from being boggled.
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

29th January 2009, 08:05 PM	#21
fullflavormenthol Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,417	This is why I basically put California on a list of States I don't want to actually live in, and Berkley and San Francisco as cities I never want to even visit.
	__________________ "Burning people! He says what we're all thinking!" -GLaDOS

29th January 2009, 08:08 PM	#22
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	"Work for nuclear weapons"...what an odd legal phrasing:
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

29th January 2009, 08:08 PM	#23
Modified Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 4,062	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto So, if 3M sells a single floppy disk to a company that is anyway involved in thinking about a "Nuclear weapon", that's game over? That wouldn't be my interpretation of "primary intended function", but the term is vague.

29th January 2009, 09:03 PM	#24
illumino New Blood Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 9	Originally Posted by Modified That wouldn't be my interpretation of "primary intended function", but the term is vague. 3M has their hands in many things, its very likely that they may hold government contracts somehow relating to nuclear devices. Also, parts are not always contracted specifically for a particular piece government equipment, especially lately with the DoD push to use more Commerical Off-The Shelf (COTS) items to reduce procurement costs. I work for the US DoD and we use many items that are not specifically designed for government equipment. Many items used in our nuclear systems are certified to be a high quality, but are not necessarily designed for nuclear components.
illumino New Blood Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 9

29th January 2009, 11:39 PM	#25
ravdin Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by BPSCG What I find surprising is that after all the time he's spent living there, ravdin hasn't tried to pull his head off his shoulders with his bare hands. It's true that while Berkeley can be a nice place to live (great food, 68 degree weather in January), I can get pretty worked up sometimes about the fools we've entrusted to run our local government. But then I think: this is my town. Am I going to be run off by a bunch of hippies? Is Code Pink really too much for me to handle? Maybe someday I'll have to conclude that yes, there's no place for me in Berkeley and I should leave it for the peaceniks and moochers. But since I'm going to be a curmudgeon just about anywhere, at least for today it might as well be here.
	__________________ If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak. -Jayne Cobb Believe what you're told. There would be chaos if everyone thought for themselves. -Top Dog slogan Last edited by ravdin; 29th January 2009 at 11:40 PM.

30th January 2009, 05:42 AM	#26
Sherman Bay Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,074	Originally Posted by ravdin It's true that while Berkeley can be a nice place to live (great food, 68 degree weather in January), I can get pretty worked up sometimes about the fools we've entrusted to run our local government. But then I think: this is my town. Then why don't you run for council office?

30th January 2009, 05:49 AM	#27
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Quote: It's true that while Berkeley can be a nice place to live (great food, 68 degree weather in January), I can get pretty worked up sometimes about the fools we've entrusted to run our local government. But then I think: this is my town. Originally Posted by Sherman Bay Then why don't you run for council office? I suspect there are plenty of other exercises in utter futility that don't require nearly the investment of time, money, and emotional anguish. Arguing with some of the more extreme nutters on this forum comes most immediately to mind.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

30th January 2009, 06:46 AM	#28
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,411	Originally Posted by Modified That wouldn't be my interpretation of "primary intended function", but the term is vague. Having read over the definitions from the disclosure I posted earlier about six times in an attempt to truly understand, I think that, given its lack of clarity, just about any activity could be read into it. Not drafted by a lawyer fer shure.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

30th January 2009, 08:41 AM	#29
ravdin Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by Sherman Bay Then why don't you run for council office? Ha! I wouldn't get elected dogcatcher around here. Although it could be fun to run on the "shut down People's Park" platform....
	__________________ If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak. -Jayne Cobb Believe what you're told. There would be chaos if everyone thought for themselves. -Top Dog slogan

30th January 2009, 11:17 AM	#30
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,782	I have a theory that one problem Berkely has is that a good percentage of the voters are students who know they are only going to be there for a few years, and don't give a damn about the long term good for the city, and elect ideologues who really care nothing about running the city on a realistic basis, only about peddling their ideology.

30th January 2009, 11:32 AM	#31
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,015	Really, couldn't you pretty much shut down Berkeley altogether with that stupid rule? I'm sure every computer/computer parts manufacturer has their product used in some way in nuke programs, as well as office furniture manufacturers, office product manufacturers, etc etc. I bet there's Bic pens in use in the DOD for example.

30th January 2009, 12:36 PM	#32
Dr H Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 818	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 There has to be a rational explanation for this. I can't handle the alternative. What's on this disclosure form? Edit: Think I found it here. I guess 3M works with nukes every once in a while and that the statute is overly broad. Y'know, this conjures up a rather disturbing image of nuclear weapons held together with Scotch-brand cellophane tape...
	__________________ Dr H "I have nothing to say and I am saying it and that is poetry." -- John Cage

30th January 2009, 12:52 PM	#33
ravdin Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by dudalb I have a theory that one problem Berkely has is that a good percentage of the voters are students who know they are only going to be there for a few years, and don't give a damn about the long term good for the city, and elect ideologues who really care nothing about running the city on a realistic basis, only about peddling their ideology. I don't agree. The students are concentrated near campus, and in any case I don't think they take much interest in local politics. I think it's the long term residents who are voting in the radical left wingers. Many of them have high ideals but they don't have to live near grubby places like People's Park. Originally Posted by WildCat Really, couldn't you pretty much shut down Berkeley altogether with that stupid rule? I'm sure every computer/computer parts manufacturer has their product used in some way in nuke programs, as well as office furniture manufacturers, office product manufacturers, etc etc. I bet there's Bic pens in use in the DOD for example. Probably so. The ruling against 3M is so arbitrary that it suggests that the city leaders aren't antinuclear as much as they are anticorporate.
	__________________ If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak. -Jayne Cobb Believe what you're told. There would be chaos if everyone thought for themselves. -Top Dog slogan Last edited by ravdin; 30th January 2009 at 12:58 PM.

30th January 2009, 05:15 PM	#34
illumino New Blood Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 9	Originally Posted by WildCat Really, couldn't you pretty much shut down Berkeley altogether with that stupid rule? I'm sure every computer/computer parts manufacturer has their product used in some way in nuke programs, as well as office furniture manufacturers, office product manufacturers, etc etc. I bet there's Bic pens in use in the DOD for example. Actually we use Skilcraft pens, quality blind-made products
illumino New Blood Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 9

30th January 2009, 05:44 PM	#35
fullflavormenthol Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,417	I could imagine people actually moving to Berkley, maybe those "we're moving to Canada" people that couldn't make the transition. I mean here in Missouri I am considered a Marxist (I'm actually a libertarian, go figure) but in Berkley I would be Bill O'Reilly to those people. Not anything against the place, but it seems from what I am able to read that common sense, at least to me, is very much gone from that place. Nevertheless, I suppose it is good for different cities to represent different ideals. It allows us all to decide where to live.....unless someone offers us a good job there, and then we just have to deal with it I supppose.
	__________________ "Burning people! He says what we're all thinking!" -GLaDOS