The mysterious "grab" photo ...

[GlennB]

(if indeed the excavator is called a "grab" at all, but never mind) ... that they claim shows molten metal.

I've been looking at this photo, off and on, for a few years now and it still mystifies me. I'd be interested in any comments/theories about it. Let me stress that my opinions are pure speculation, but Truthers make so many bold claims about this pic that perhaps it would be useful to discuss it. This miight already have been done to death, but I can't find an in-depth analysis anywhere. Also, a high-res photo would be good but, again, all I can find is the usual stuff.

Firstly - the general shot, with some coloured highlights to look at. One of these truly bemuses me, so I'll kick off with some thoughts about that first :



Firstly the yellow area, enlarged here :



A few things spring to mind.

1) the upper pink and dark areas appear to be symmetrical halves of a wedge-shaped and tapering piece of material, with distinct upper and lower boundaries. And - of course - what seems like a perfectly delineated boundary between the two colours.
That the pink/black colour transition might be due to a hot metal / cool metal transition strikes me as impossible to justify, whatever the conditions below ground before the "object" was brought up.
I'm increasingly of the opinion that this two-tone wedge is part of the grab jaw itself, though why it might be painted (or stained?) in a very precise two-tone is also a mystery.

2) The purple area, i.e. the bulk of the amorphous black material in the grab jaws. No matter how hard I look, enlarge or rotate this photo I can see no structure here. That it might have once been a metal column or piece of aluminium facade strikes me as unlikely. Notice, also, that the very top right of this black material (the green circle) appears to have a hot spot giving off a slight trail of smoke.
My very speculative guess is that this black material is in fact some kind of hydrocarbon debris. A desk, workstation or somesuch?

3) The black circle. This seems to be an extension of the main bulk of the black material in the jaws of the grab. If so, it would mean that this dark material is penetrating the glowing stuff. What could do that? Concrete through metal might fit the bill, but the dark stuff doesn't look much like concrete. Metal penetrating some burning hydrocarbon would also fit the bill, but again the dark material doesn't look like WTC metal.

4) The white circle. Looks like the headlights of a vehicle, or a floodlight. In any event, what effect will this have on the camera's exposure to the main object of the photo and the apparent colours reproduced?

5) The red circle. This is touted in Truther circles as a red-hot piece of pipe, yet it is isolated.

6) The blue circle. The bottom edge of this bright material is fairly straight, not what I'd expect from melting metal at all. The tangle of wires below also seem to have been connected to the "melting metal" lump, though this is not entirely clear. If so, why would thin wires survive while a bulk of metal is - supposedly - melting?

In general - the boundary between bright "hot metal" and dark unidentified material is extremely clear and precise. This is not the behaviour of any red/yellow/white hot metal that I have ever observed. And the general shape looks nothing like any WTC metal structures I have seen.

I'm more and more inclined to believe that this glowing object is not metal at all.

I'm speculating, of course, but your observations on all this would be interesting.

[T.A.M.]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/...6P2Ph/610x.jpg

Orange isn't it.

My guess is that it is molten glass or some other material. I am no expert though.

TAM

[Alt+F4]

The definition of molten is something made liquid by heat. Whatever that is, it's not molten. The machine in the photo is not used to move liquid materials.

[DGM]

Every time I look at this picture all I can think is, What contractor would screw up his machine by dipping into a pool of "molten metal"? The radiant heat alone would melt hydraulic lines and fry the seals out of the rams. I think this picture (taken at night I believe) is no where near as hot a "truthers" are suggesting it could be.

Maybe they should talk to the guy that ran that piece of equipment (no sorry that would make why to much sense).

[T.A.M.]

a piece of cracked glass, could heat up enough to turn orange, without being pure liquid, could it not (see picture I linked to above). It would be surrounded with a frame that might keep it "relatively" intact from a shape pov?

I am no expert, but that is what first comes to mind.

TAM

[DGM]

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

a piece of cracked glass, could heat up enough to turn orange, without being pure liquid, could it not (see picture I linked to above). It would be surrounded with a frame that might keep it "relatively" intact from a shape pov?

I am no expert, but that is what first comes to mind.

TAM

I'm thinking more along the lines of a fabric of some sort (maybe a metal mesh) and it's no where near as hot as it looks.


ETA: Try lighting a piece of steel wool on fire and see what that looks like.

[alexi_drago]

Is it definitely something the grab's got a hold of or is it something going on in the smoke behind it?

[scissorhands]

Just wondering if anyone knows the provenance of this photo?
Photographer, date taken, etc?

[DGM]

By the way it's a "Grapple"

[MikeW]

Originally Posted by scissorhands

Just wondering if anyone knows the provenance of this photo?
Photographer, date taken, etc?

It's supposedly taken by Frank Silecchia, a ground zero worker. I originally found it here, even before Jones did I think, where it's captioned "this is a picture of Tower #1 ..2 months later, molten steel". For some reason the image is no longer displayed, though.

[scissorhands]

Thank you.
I was wondering if I could find an original photo, not that Im suspicious about truthers inadvertantly messing with it in photoshop, of course.

[MikeW]

Originally Posted by scissorhands

Thank you.
I was wondering if I could find an original photo, not that Im suspicious about truthers inadvertantly messing with it in photoshop, of course.

I added a copy to my own page when I found it. That's not as satisfactory as having the source to hand, but it's the best I can do.

[scissorhands]

Contacting Frank Silecchia would be the logical step, from what I have read, he is best known for his discovery of the "cross" amongst the ruins, and a couple of other very blurry long distance shots of "molten metal" that look like they were taken on a camera phone.
Nothing like the quality of this photograph.


I find this photograph extremely dubious.

It looks enhanced to me.

[jaydeehess]

I've always thought it looked like a large transformer with cables hanging off of it.

[Brainster]

This couldn't by any chance be that weird orange sculpture outside WTC-7, could it?

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by scissorhands

Just wondering if anyone knows the provenance of this photo?
Photographer, date taken, etc?

I've seen that still shot edited into this YouTube video clip of a guy
in a hard hat and safety vest speaking about how hot the pile is.
It is made to look like they were the same event. I suspect the still shot is hacked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrJCa1haaY

The hard hat guy looks like he is in charge. Does anyone recognize him?

[GlennB]

enlarged :



Strangely, it seems to be raised above the ground and appears to be connected to an open structure of some kind.

Even more strangely, the side that's facing the light is brighter, while the underside is in partial shadow.

I don't believe this is glowing metal at all. I suggest it's simply a red object.

[Sunstealer]

Originally Posted by BigAl

The hard hat guy looks like he is in charge. Does anyone recognize him?

Notice how in his description he does not mention liquid or molten metal (and the video's title is misleading). A few points.

He estimates 1500 degrees which is most likely Fahrenheit, but ofcourse this is an estimate.

"We've had some small windows into the core at some point and it looked like an oven, it was just roaring inside and it had a bright, bright, orange reddish colour."

"See the stuff he's pulling out, it's red hot."

No liquid metal, but he is describing conditions that would have a severe detrimental effect on steel. The likelyhood is that any glass, aluminium, lead, etc would certainly have been liquefied and the metal react with allsorts of other materials.

[Kent1]

Originally Posted by GlennB

enlarged :

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...y/grabpipe.jpg

Strangely, it seems to be raised above the ground and appears to be connected to an open structure of some kind.

Even more strangely, the side that's facing the light is brighter, while the underside is in partial shadow.

I don't believe this is glowing metal at all. I suggest it's simply a red object.

I think its likely glowing metal. BTW there are more photos. I know of 3. It was taken on 9/27. Here's another one.

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/W...lyCollapse.pdf

Personally I think we are seeing glass with possibly rebar in it.

[CptColumbo]

If the upper right-hand corner of the picture is the sky, it would appear to be twilight (or later) and I would guess that the bright object on the right is a flood light.

[JimBenArm]

There is just one thing I have to add to this. Anyone who thinks that it's molten needs to do a simple experiment.

Take some tongs and a glass of water.

Lower tongs into water. Close tongs.

Raise tongs. Observe amount of material dangling from tongs.

That's exactly how much would have been dangling from the grapple if it dipped into molten metal. Steel, aluminum, glass, whatever. It would not have picked up anything molten.

Anyone who thinks it would have really needs to do this experiment. After banging their head against a wall, repeatedly. Just for being stupid enough to think otherwise.

[Kent1]

Originally Posted by JimBenArm

There is just one thing I have to add to this. Anyone who thinks that it's molten needs to do a simple experiment.

Take some tongs and a glass of water.

Lower tongs into water. Close tongs.

Raise tongs. Observe amount of material dangling from tongs.

That's exactly how much would have been dangling from the grapple if it dipped into molten metal. Steel, aluminum, glass, whatever. It would not have picked up anything molten.

Anyone who thinks it would have really needs to do this experiment. After banging their head against a wall, repeatedly. Just for being stupid enough to think otherwise.

Molten doesn't always mean liquid. I'd have no problem with someone saying that's molten.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/molten

[scissorhands]

Originally Posted by Kent1

Molten doesn't always mean liquid.

Really?
Every dictionary definition of the word, describes the term "molten" as meaning the state of a solid material after melting.
To melt, means "to be changed from a solid to a liquid state by heating."
The material in the photo shows no sign of being in a liquid state.
Therefore it is not molten.

[Kent1]

Originally Posted by scissorhands

Really?
Every dictionary definition of the word, describes the term "molten" as meaning the state of a solid material after melting.
To melt, means "to be changed from a solid to a liquid state by heating."
The material in the photo shows no sign of being in a liquid state.
Therefore it is not molten.

That's incorrect. See post above

[dtugg]

Honestly, that is a stupid definition. I have never heard of anybody refer to something as molten simply because it has "warmth or brilliance." Hell, according to that definition, a freaking lit light bulb is molten.

[alexi_drago]

Cool, molten fish.

[Kent1]

Originally Posted by dtugg

Honestly, that is a stupid definition. I have never heard of anybody refer to something as molten simply because it has "warmth or brilliance." Hell, according to that definition, a freaking lit light bulb is molten.

I wouldn't refer to a light bulb as molten either. However a hot glowing (possibly dripping) soft piece of metal or glass, I would.

[Minadin]

It's somewhat like when people refer colloquially to 'melted' steel beams / columns when they mean 'heat-deformed' instead of 'liquefied'. It's not unlike some people who like to use the word 'theory' in a manner which is more vernacular than scientific.

[alexi_drago]

Originally Posted by Kent1

I wouldn't refer to a light bulb as molten either. However a hot glowing soft piece of metal or glass, I would.

Glass can be molten without glowing or being hot. It just flows really really slowly.

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by Kent1

I wouldn't refer to a light bulb as molten either. However a hot glowing soft piece of metal or glass, I would.

Well if you want to go by the dictionary definition you cited, a light bulb is molten. If you disagree with that then you must agree that the third definition is bogus. So disregard that, and go by the first two.

[Kent1]

Originally Posted by dtugg

Well if you want to go by the dictionary definition you cited, a light bulb is molten. If you disagree with that then you must agree that the third definition is bogus. So disregard that, and go by the first two.

I'll stick with what I stated. Thanks.

[dtugg]

Originally Posted by Kent1

I'll stick with what I stated. Thanks.

OK, so you will stick with something that is scientifically incorrect.

[Kent1]

Originally Posted by dtugg

OK, so you will stick with something that is scientifically incorrect.

Have you ever heard of pliant molten glass?

[dtugg]

No. But I think we are talking about metal here.

[Kent1]

Originally Posted by dtugg

No. But I think we are talking about metal here.

I don't think the object is metal. I think its likely glass. Especially of its translucent nature.
But here is def for pliant.
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/featur...fid=1861738529

[dtugg]

I have to say this is kind of a stupid argument. I got drunk early today. I do believe there is a metallurgist here (Sunstealer?) that could settle the argument if he wants.

[DGM]

Originally Posted by Kent1

Have you ever heard of pliant molten glass?

I believe that's a state that iron /steel doesn't readily take. Your splitting hairs to make a point that is somewhat pointless. In the context of the discussion "molten" is very clear.

Just my $.02

[Smackety]

I think it is an orange lamp shade. It is upside down, and the lamp is still lit, so the lamp shade is 'glowing.'

Don't even try to tell me everyone remembered to turn off the lights when they were evacuating!

[Kent1]

Originally Posted by DGM

I believe that's a state that iron /steel doesn't readily take. Your splitting hairs to make a point that is somewhat pointless. In the context of the discussion "molten" is very clear.

Just my $.02

Its not splitting hairs in the slightest if you go back and read from the beginning. Steel can also be malleable, but the main point of course being that molten doesn't always equal a full liquid state. Furthermore its debatable as to whether or not the material is dripping. I thought JimBenArm was being a little too silly. So I had to point out the various problems. I thought it was in fact molten glass. Scissorhands then came on without simply reading my link. Then of course we had silly fish, light bulbs etc.
I also posted this earlier in another thread.
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=140

[DGM]

Originally Posted by Kent1

Its not splitting hairs in the slightest if you go back and read from the beginning. Steel can also be malleable, but the main point of course being that molten doesn't always equal a full liquid state. Furthermore its debatable as to whether or not the material is dripping. I thought JimBenArm was being a little too silly. So I had to point out the various problems. I thought it was in fact molten glass. Scissorhands then came on without simply reading my link. Then of course we had silly fish, light bulbs etc.
I also posted this earlier in another thread.
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=140

You would need to show me (I do ornamental iron work) that a piece of metal could be dripping on one end and be picked up on the other and look anything like that picture, Good luck. Your splitting hairs with a definition.