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Foster Zygote · 22nd August 2009, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Elizabeth I

He's really, really, really slow, isn't he?

The continents move faster.

fromdownunder · 22nd August 2009, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

Why do I want to know what you know to be the concept of God, the Christian God that is?

Yrreg

There are 40,000 (and counting) different sects of Christians, some with very few and very subtle variations on what they believe God is, and some with quite major differences.

Since I have no desire to define all 40,000 "Christian" Gods, and certainly none of the other Gods I lack a belief in, please be specific?

Give us the attributes of the one (out of 40,000) Christian God you accept, then we can talk.

I have a feeling that this will either not be responded to, or a "No True Scotsman" appeal will be forthcoming (or that this post will not even be read, since the OP always seems to be debating himself, and not the responses on his threads.

Norm

Sun Countess · 22nd August 2009, 03:59 PM

Well, according to my pseudo-orthodox atheist calendar, this month I'm targeting Odin for non-belief, next month is Zeus, and it's always Baal in October. I don't think the Christian god is in the rotation for special non-belief targeting until 2012. It's really really hard work to not believe in all the gods all the time, especially for us atheists who are sorely lacking in ordinary intelligence or human certainty. One at a time, that's my motto. Of course, that makes for a really long rotation.

Piscivore · 22nd August 2009, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

Any being not angry at the cancellation of Firefly is not be worthy of the label "God".

Seconded.

Piscivore · 22nd August 2009, 04:06 PM

As a polypseudotheist, the only genuine pseudo argument I know is "It's fun to belive in gods that don't exist. Especially when they admit it."

PaulJ · 22nd August 2009, 04:06 PM

Seems to me that Yrreg is jumping the gun.

To start from first principles: Yrreg, if you want a serious, honest debate please answer the the following - what do you believe, and why?

Foster Zygote · 22nd August 2009, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by PaulJ

Seems to me that Yrreg is jumping the gun.

To start from first principles: Yrreg, if you want a serious, honest debate please answer the the following - what do you believe, and why?

Welcome PaulJ,

Trust me, Gerry has long ago demonstrated that an honest, serious debate is the last thing he wants.

learner · 22nd August 2009, 04:50 PM

Gerry.
You seem to me to be at least as obsessed with Atheists as you clearly are with your religion.
Did you expect to spend so much time gibbering on about Atheists when you first left the atheist fold?
Couldn't you have just waved a nonchalant hand at religion the first time you were aware of it?
Give it a swerve and keep life simple. Just be good to people and stop the obsession.

Its really not necessary.

Hokulele · 22nd August 2009, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

Why do I want to know what you know to be the concept of God, the Christian God that is?

Pleroma.

Fiona · 22nd August 2009, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

theists who want to explain to them how God is a fact
Yrreg

Please tell me what you understand by the word "explain", Yrreg

I will give you some hints:

It does not mean the same thing as "tell"
It does not mean the same thing as "preach"
It does not mean the same thing as " assert"

How are you using the word?

X · 22nd August 2009, 07:12 PM

It has already been explained to yrreg (repeatedly) that when we discuss such concepts as the Flying Spaghetti Monster etc, we are not calling his god a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

What we are doing is comparing his (and, incidentally, our own) lack of belief in a Flying Spaghetti Monster to our lack of belief in his god.

The subject of the analogy is the lack of belief, not god.

But yrreg either cannot or will not understand this.

He seems to prefer to take umbrage at us calling his god names.

It plays into his idea that atheists are mean.

Originally Posted by Agatha

Yrreg. Please, for the love of all you hold dear, please read this:

Atheists don't believe in ANY god. Not in any concept of the Christian God, not in any concept of the Muslim God, the Norse Gods, the Roman Gods, the Greek Gods, the Chinese Gods, nor in any others you can think of.

We don't believe in any of them. We simply don't believe that any of them exist outside of the human imagination.

It really doesn't matter how you define your god, we still don't believe in it.

Quoted in the (small) hope that yrreg reads and comprehends.

Originally Posted by PaulJ

Seems to me that Yrreg is jumping the gun.

To start from first principles: Yrreg, if you want a serious, honest debate please answer the the following - what do you believe, and why?

If yrreg had wanted a serious, honest debate, he wouldn't have started with a strawman and a snide title.

PixyMisa · 22nd August 2009, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

What do you know to be the concept of God as accepted by Christians to be in fact existing?

That it's not based on evidence or logic.

Quote:

Why do I want to know what you know to be the concept of God, the Christian God that is?

Because you're consumed by irrelevancies.

Quote:

Because then I will know whether you are targeting the correct God, or you are missing altogether your target, and thus you are not being relevant in being atheists.

You don't get it, do you?

Your concept of God is irrelevant. Your beliefs are not special. We don't believe in any gods at all.

Lonewulf · 22nd August 2009, 07:22 PM

Why do you people bother, anyways? It's a testament to your will and your endurance of mind to be able to continually bash your collective heads against such an indestructible wall.

remirol · 22nd August 2009, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

Because then I will know whether you are targeting the correct God, or you are missing altogether your target, and thus you are not being relevant in being atheists.

Swing and a miss!

Atheism isn't "anti-god", no matter what value of "god" you pick.
Atheism is "lack of belief in all gods". This includes whichever correct god you think you've found this week.

Think of it as "god-indifferent", much like the aforementioned invisible pink unicorn in my closet. I don't check every night to make sure it isn't there; I'll worry about its existence if it ever shows up.

quarky · 22nd August 2009, 07:55 PM

I think I get it.
The concept of God exists, whether God exists or not.
For those that believe God does not exist, (the christian one, btw) how would they imagine that concept to be? Or, what do we think a theist is imagining, when they imagine God? (This wording has a more pro-atheist approach, but it may be the same thing yrreg was trying to get at.)

drzeus99 · 22nd August 2009, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Yoink

<SNIP>
and if all you mean by Nature is what anyone else means by Nature then I guess you can call it God or Arthur or Cyril or Maude or anything else you want to call it." <SNIP>

Maude???

Hmmmm... for some reason, that brings a tune to my head:

Lady Godiva was a freedom rider
She didn't care if the whole world looked.
Joan of Arc with the Lord to guide her
She was a sister who really cooked.

Isadora was the first bra burner
And you're glad she showed up. (Oh yeah)
And when the country was falling apart
Betsy Ross got it all sewed up.

And then there's Maude.
And then there's Maude.
And then there's Maude.
And then there's Maude.
And then there's Maude.
And then there's Maude.
And then there's

That old compromisin', enterprisin', anything but tranquilizing,
Right on Maude !!!!!!!

PixyMisa · 22nd August 2009, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by remirol

Swing and a miss!

Atheism isn't "anti-god", no matter what value of "god" you pick.
Atheism is "lack of belief in all gods". This includes whichever correct god you think you've found this week.

Right.

Yrreg, what your concept of God is, is up to you to define, not us.

You define it, and we'll tell you why we don't believe in it.

Quote:

Think of it as "god-indifferent", much like the aforementioned invisible pink unicorn in my closet. I don't check every night to make sure it isn't there; I'll worry about its existence if it ever shows up.

Or you start finding invisible pink holes in all your shirts...

Andrewsarchus · 22nd August 2009, 08:53 PM

Your argument is wrong Yregg. That is all.

drzeus99 · 22nd August 2009, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

What do you know to be the concept of God as accepted by Christians to be in fact existing?

Please take care that we are now into the concept of God accepted by Christians to be in fact existing, we are not now into the issue of the existence of God. Yrreg

Ummm.... You just don't get it Yrreg, do you. The whole point of atheism
is that we DON'T accept as FACT to be EXISTING, the christian god or ANY god. Obviously, we know that believers in ANY god accept the fact that their god exists, because they ARE BELIEVERS.
That part we already got, and rightfully acknowledge...that people who believe in god (any god, including the christian god), believe that their god exists. That goes without saying, and is needlessly written as a caveat in your sentence for some unknown reason that only furthers to bewilder us and add to the confusion myself and others have in attempting to comprehend exactly what you're asking.

If it's for us to suspend our logic, rational thought, and critical thinking, and somehow BELIEVE in, or pretend to BELIEVE in the existence of the christian (or any) god, you're just being a plain old silly ~~troll~~ goose.

drzeus99 · 22nd August 2009, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Pure_Argent

But we do believe in Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth. I mean, we're all intelligent people here.

Ummm.. Are you trying to tell me that there are people out there who DON'T BELIEVE in Cthulhu AND Yog-Sothoth??? You're kidding me, right? This must be some kind of joke. Say it ain't so..say it ain't so.
C'mon now.... this has GOT TO BE a joke. I get it...alright..where's the cameras...where's Allen Funt (oh, he's dead...never mind)..umm I mean..how about Peter Funt???
Or that Ashton Kutcher fella. Someone's tryin to pull my leg....

Oh you guys..you almost had me goin there. Almost *punk'd* the good DrZ.
I'm a little too smart to have the sheep pulled over my eyes.

To think....someone actually NOT believing in Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth...LOL
That's just too funny..and ridiculous. And for a second..just one second..I ALMOST bought into it. Now, how RIDICULOUS of a thought is that. Sheer lunacy, if you ask me. Even having to tell people that we believe in these 2.... almost had me going there... that there might be someone so blind, so utterly without any intelligence or common sense that they'd even question their existence... WHEW....

wollery · 23rd August 2009, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Andrewsarchus

Your argument is wrong Yregg. That is all.

Wait, what.

He has an argument?

Brainache · 23rd August 2009, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by wollery

Wait, what.

He has an argument?

Oh sorry, it's "being hit on the head" lessons in here...

H3LL · 23rd August 2009, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by yrreg

What do you know to be the concept of God as accepted by Christians to be in fact existing?

Please take care that we are now into the concept of God accepted by Christians to be in fact existing, we are not now into the issue of the existence of God.

Why do I want to know what you know to be the concept of God, the Christian God that is?

Because then I will know whether you are targeting the correct God, or you are missing altogether your target, and thus you are not being relevant in being atheists.

Yrreg

Would that be the Christian God of the Anglican Communion or the Christian God of the Assyrian Church of the East or the Christian God of the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Christian God of the Oriental Orthodox Church or the Christian God of the Roman Catholic Church or the Christian God of the Other Churches that call themselves Catholic or the Christian God of the Pre-Lutheran Protestants or the Christian God of the Lutheranists or the Christian God of the Reformed Churches or the Christian God of the Presbyterianists or the Christian God of the Congregationalist Churches or the Christian God of the Anabaptists or the Christian God of the Brethren or the Christian God of the Methodists or the Christian God of the Pietists and Holiness Churches or the Christian God of the Baptists or the Christian God of the Apostolic Churches or the Christian God of the Irvingites or the Christian God of the Pentecostalists or the Christian God of the Charismatics or the Christian God of the African Initiated Churches or the Christian God of the United and uniting churches or the Christian God of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) or the Christian God of the Stone-Campbell Movement or the Christian God of the Southcottites or the Christian God of the Millerites and Comparable groups or the Christian God of the Anglo-Israelists or the Christian God of the Latter Day Saints or the Christian God of the Prairie Saints or the Christian God of the Rocky Mountains or the Christian God of the Oneness Pentecostalism or the Christian God of the Unitarianism and Universalists or the Christian God of the Swedenborgianism or the Christian God of the Messianic Judaism or the Christian God of the New Thought or the Christian God of the ethnic or syncretic religions incorporating elements of Christianity or the Christian God of the New Age movements or the Christian God of the Religions associated with the Yoruba or the Christian God of Esoteric Christianity?

Or is it another one you have made up?

Which church should I go to?

I wouldn't want to mess it up and go to the wrong one. One of them must be right. They all think the others are wrong.

Just askin' ...

.

RevDisturba · 23rd August 2009, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by yrreg

I am now convinced that atheists have only genuine pseudo arguments against God.

1. Bad-mouthing God, like calling Him a Flying Spaghetti Monster, leprechaun, invisible pink unicorn, etc.
2. Laughing at God and theists who want to explain to them how God is a fact by engaging in frivolities, instead of attending carefully to the explanations from theists.
3. Pretending not to know what the issue is all about, or to not know anything which might enlighten them on the fact that God exists.

What do you guys here say, atheists and theists and people who are neither but interested in the issue of God or no God for an academic inquiry?

Yrreg, you know the answer to your own question don't you? Most Atheists are secure in their beliefs are not angry child like insulting jerks. Some sites have more than their fair share of abusive atheist AND Christians.

The best thing to do is to not answer any replies that contain bait words such as the FSM, or associating religious icons with mythical figures, or calling religion myth. Those kind of comments belong in juvenile hall or to be used amongst school children*. I see a this forum slightly trending upward towards ethical and debate in good faith and away from the Brownshirt/insultive' quagmire of the past. That bodes well for the future of our site (JREF).

; {>

oops I was making my assessment of this forum getting better by the first few comments on page one, on page two I see the rhetoric and hate speech heating up from the usual suspects, sad!

It seems that we still have a good measure of our unsavory juvenile types eh? Well this forum may still yet be a good place to post if the weeds can be pulled.

* The school children of the mentioned offensive insulting people. If I caught my children using those taunts and remarks they would be grounded of a week or worse.

proudnonbbeliever · 23rd August 2009, 03:58 AM

is gerry just an atheophile (if thats teh right word)?

Fiona · 23rd August 2009, 04:04 AM

Originally Posted by RevDisturba

The best thing to do is to not answer any replies that contain bait words such as the FSM, or associating religious icons with mythical figures, or calling religion myth.

That neither you nor Yrreg can see that those are not bait words nor attempts to annoy you: but are in fact perfectly legitimate arguments which have not been addressed speaks volumes. This has been explained many times, not least in this thread. When you have answered the points it may be those arguments will be abandoned. Trying to pretend you are being insulted is just a way of avoiding the issues, so far as I can see.

DC · 23rd August 2009, 04:10 AM

The best thing to do is to not answer any replies that contain bait words such as God and Jesus, or calling evolution myth.

yrreg · 23rd August 2009, 04:56 AM

You see, atheists, again you try to evade the question, not only try but actually avoiding the issue, instead going into what I call genuine pseudo arguments of bad mouthing God, laughing at God, and insisting you don't know nothing about the concept of God as understood by Christians.

For latecomers, see my opening message, and my message in post #14.

Yes, atheists, you have been saying since shall we say eternity that you lack belief in God or gods, but you have got to know what is the concept of God or gods you lack belief in, in order to be logical in calling yourselves atheists, and to understand what you read in writings directed against God.

Yrreg

Twiler · 23rd August 2009, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by yrreg

You see, atheists, again you try to evade the question, not only try but actually avoiding the issue, instead going into what I call genuine pseudo arguments of bad mouthing God, laughing at God, and insisting you don't know nothing about the concept of God as understood by Christians.

For latecomers, see my opening message, and my message in post #14.

Yes, atheists, you have been saying since shall we say eternity that you lack belief in God or gods, but you have got to know what is the concept of God or gods you lack belief in, in order to be logical in calling yourselves atheists, and to understand what you read in writings directed against God.

Yrreg

How about this: I do not believe in any entities who are said to be a source of absolute morality.

laca · 23rd August 2009, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by yrreg

Yes, atheists, you have been saying since shall we say eternity that you lack belief in God or gods, but you have got to know what is the concept of God or gods you lack belief in, in order to be logical in calling yourselves atheists, and to understand what you read in writings directed against God.

As has been pointed out to you several times before, atheists lack belief in any and all gods. Choose/define one. Atheists lack belief in it. Simple, isn't it?

zooterkin · 23rd August 2009, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by yrreg

You see, atheists, again you try to evade the question, not only try but actually avoiding the issue, instead going into what I call genuine pseudo arguments of bad mouthing God, laughing at God, and insisting you don't know nothing about the concept of God as understood by Christians.

I don't know what you're reading, but it's clearly not the comments in this thread. Please point to a post where any of the things you allege occurred.

Quote:

For latecomers, see my opening message, and my message in post #14.

Really, there's no need, your comments are there for all to see.

Quote:

Yes, atheists, you have been saying since shall we say eternity that you lack belief in God or gods,

Yes, you're getting the idea.

Quote:

but you have got to know what is the concept of God or gods you lack belief in,

All of those for which there is no evidence of their existence.

Quote:

in order to be logical in calling yourselves atheists, and to understand what you read in writings directed against God.

It still hasn't clicked, has it? How well do you understand the concept of all the Hindu gods? Do you lack belief in them?

yrreg · 23rd August 2009, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Phase Inverter

Originally Posted by yrreg
What do you know to be the concept of God as accepted by Christians to be in fact existing?

To answer your question honestly and without getting off track, the God that the Christians believe exists:

Has a name, Yahweh.
Is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth.
Is responsible for the creation of plants, animals, and humans on earth.
Is responsible for the creation of angels, and other beings in heaven.
Is one, but at the same time three, being(s). One of which was known as logos, but was made flesh and is now called Jesus.
Is referred to as being male.
Revealed himself to mankind on various occasions in various forms.
Directed the recording of these revelations in written form known as the Holy Bible.
Demands obedience and worship.
Chose one family to live while destroying every other human on earth.
Chose one family and it's descendants to be his people.
Dictated rules for worship, sacrifice, and behavior.
Sent a part of himself, Jesus, as a blood sacrifice to forgive the disobedience of his people.
Will punish for eternity all who do not accept or believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of their disobedience.
Will grant eternal life and bliss to all those who do accept and believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of their disobedience.
Will destroy heaven and earth and build a new heaven and earth with Jesus on the throne of the kingdom of God and the twelve disciples as rulers over the twelve tribes of his chosen people.
Etc.

Is this the God that you are "humanly certain" exists? Have I left anything out? Is there anything above that is incorrect?

Is this the God that we are going to hear arguments for or against?

Let me just invite you, Phase Inverter, for the present to your words in the following line in your list, the second item:

[God] Is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth.

That line from you say in very few words what I myself as a rational theist and a Christian understand to be God, namely, the maker of everything including the physical universe, and author of the scheme of intelligent order prevailing in it.

Yes, just keep to that line from your list and also my expanded version of that line, that is the concept of God which I am humanly certain in fact exists.

For the present don't go into anything else, just stick to that line from your list and as I said, which I expand into my own version as stated above.

Yrreg

Fiona · 23rd August 2009, 05:22 AM

Ok. We are back to "What is wrong with this defintion of God "

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=135293

I will ask the mods to merge this thread, shall I ? Yes, I believe I will

ETA: only trouble is deciding whether is is better merged with that one or with:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=147728 or even

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=148459

Hmm. I will stick with my first thought but if the mods think either of the others more appropriate so be it.

remirol · 23rd August 2009, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by yrreg

and insisting you don't know nothing about the concept of God as understood by Christians.

Learn to write. Start by avoiding double negatives.
I was raised Episcopalian. It isn't that I don't know about the Christian concept of god, but that I think it's a bunch of bunk.

Quote:

Yes, atheists, you have been saying since shall we say eternity that you lack belief in God or gods, but you have got to know what is the concept of God or gods you lack belief in,

What part of "all" do you not understand?

I'll make it slightly more clear. I lack belief in 100% of the concepts of god that I have been exposed to in this life. The ones I haven't ever heard of yet I can reserve judgment on, but I deem it unlikely that I won't lack belief in those, too.

So, you go ahead and hold your concept up, and I'll proceed to lack belief in it.

How's that?

Mojo · 23rd August 2009, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

The continents move faster.

The incontinents move much faster.

Mojo · 23rd August 2009, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by H3LL

Which church should I go to?

Nonono! Yrreg wants us to define which one we should not go to.

RoboTimbo · 23rd August 2009, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by yrreg

[God] Is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth.

For the present don't go into anything else, just stick to that line from your list and as I said, which I expand into my own version as stated above.

Yrreg

Your god(s) have no other attributes than that? Your god(s) affect nothing in daily life?

If so, then we can talk.

Pure Argent · 23rd August 2009, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Your god(s) have no other attributes than that? Your god(s) affect nothing in daily life?

If so, then we can talk.

I don't know about yours, but my god, the Great Cthulhu, has immeasurable impact on daily life. He eats about five people a day around here.

RoboTimbo · 23rd August 2009, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Pure_Argent

I don't know about yours, but my god, the Great Cthulhu, has immeasurable impact on daily life. He eats about five people a day around here.

Maybe he ate yrreG's god(s)? That would explain why he is so angry.

dafydd · 23rd August 2009, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by yrreg

You see, atheists, again you try to evade the question, not only try but actually avoiding the issue, instead going into what I call genuine pseudo arguments of bad mouthing God, laughing at God, and insisting you don't know nothing about the concept of God as understood by Christians.

For latecomers, see my opening message, and my message in post #14.

Yes, atheists, you have been saying since shall we say eternity that you lack belief in God or gods, but you have got to know what is the concept of God or gods you lack belief in, in order to be logical in calling yourselves atheists, and to understand what you read in writings directed against God.

Yrreg

There is no issue to avoid. I do not go out of my way to read writings directed against any god or gods.I do not believe they exist,end of story.How can I have a concept about something that does not exist? I never enter into discussion about the existence or non-existence of The Flying Spaghetti Monster or Ganesh the Hindu elephant god,so why should I debate with you about your delusion? Believe what you want to believe,I don't give a flying one.

22nd August 2009, 03:54 PM	#401
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,459	Originally Posted by Elizabeth I He's really, really, really slow, isn't he? The continents move faster.
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

22nd August 2009, 04:04 PM	#404
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,561	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 Any being not angry at the cancellation of Firefly is not be worthy of the label "God". Seconded.
	__________________ [R]evenge is a dish best served screaming and insane. - TM "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

22nd August 2009, 04:06 PM	#405
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,561	As a polypseudotheist, the only genuine pseudo argument I know is "It's fun to belive in gods that don't exist. Especially when they admit it."
	__________________ [R]evenge is a dish best served screaming and insane. - TM "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

22nd August 2009, 04:12 PM	#407
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,459	Originally Posted by PaulJ Seems to me that Yrreg is jumping the gun. To start from first principles: Yrreg, if you want a serious, honest debate please answer the the following - what do you believe, and why? Welcome PaulJ, Trust me, Gerry has long ago demonstrated that an honest, serious debate is the last thing he wants.
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

22nd August 2009, 04:50 PM	#408
learner Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2008 Location: dorset england Posts: 1,593	Gerry. You seem to me to be at least as obsessed with Atheists as you clearly are with your religion. Did you expect to spend so much time gibbering on about Atheists when you first left the atheist fold? Couldn't you have just waved a nonchalant hand at religion the first time you were aware of it? Give it a swerve and keep life simple. Just be good to people and stop the obsession. Its really not necessary.
	__________________ "I would give my right arm to be ambidextrous" - My Mate Dave " How do you expect me to use my initiative if you wont tell me what to do?" - Dave again Last edited by learner; 22nd August 2009 at 04:51 PM.

22nd August 2009, 03:56 PM	#402
fromdownunder Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 3,118	Originally Posted by yrreg Why do I want to know what you know to be the concept of God, the Christian God that is? Yrreg There are 40,000 (and counting) different sects of Christians, some with very few and very subtle variations on what they believe God is, and some with quite major differences. Since I have no desire to define all 40,000 "Christian" Gods, and certainly none of the other Gods I lack a belief in, please be specific? Give us the attributes of the one (out of 40,000) Christian God you accept, then we can talk. I have a feeling that this will either not be responded to, or a "No True Scotsman" appeal will be forthcoming (or that this post will not even be read, since the OP always seems to be debating himself, and not the responses on his threads. Norm

22nd August 2009, 03:59 PM	#403
Sun Countess Appearance of intelligence Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Posts: 3,176	Well, according to my pseudo-orthodox atheist calendar, this month I'm targeting Odin for non-belief, next month is Zeus, and it's always Baal in October. I don't think the Christian god is in the rotation for special non-belief targeting until 2012. It's really really hard work to not believe in all the gods all the time, especially for us atheists who are sorely lacking in ordinary intelligence or human certainty. One at a time, that's my motto. Of course, that makes for a really long rotation.

22nd August 2009, 04:06 PM	#406
PaulJ Student Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 30	Seems to me that Yrreg is jumping the gun. To start from first principles: Yrreg, if you want a serious, honest debate please answer the the following - what do you believe, and why?

22nd August 2009, 06:07 PM	#409
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,348	Originally Posted by yrreg Why do I want to know what you know to be the concept of God, the Christian God that is? Pleroma.
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

22nd August 2009, 06:24 PM	#410
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238	Originally Posted by yrreg theists who want to explain to them how God is a fact Yrreg Please tell me what you understand by the word "explain", Yrreg I will give you some hints: It does not mean the same thing as "tell" It does not mean the same thing as "preach" It does not mean the same thing as " assert" How are you using the word?
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238	Last edited by Fiona; 22nd August 2009 at 06:26 PM.

22nd August 2009, 07:12 PM	#411
X Slide Rulez 4 Life Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Launching the army, waiting for Hok to commit her forces (then the moles strike...) Posts: 4,087	It has already been explained to yrreg (repeatedly) that when we discuss such concepts as the Flying Spaghetti Monster etc, we are not calling his god a Flying Spaghetti Monster. What we are doing is comparing his (and, incidentally, our own) lack of belief in a Flying Spaghetti Monster to our lack of belief in his god. The subject of the analogy is the lack of belief, not god. But yrreg either cannot or will not understand this. He seems to prefer to take umbrage at us calling his god names. It plays into his idea that atheists are mean. Originally Posted by Agatha Yrreg. Please, for the love of all you hold dear, please read this: Atheists don't believe in ANY god. Not in any concept of the Christian God, not in any concept of the Muslim God, the Norse Gods, the Roman Gods, the Greek Gods, the Chinese Gods, nor in any others you can think of. We don't believe in any of them. We simply don't believe that any of them exist outside of the human imagination. It really doesn't matter how you define your god, we still don't believe in it. Quoted in the (small) hope that yrreg reads and comprehends. Originally Posted by PaulJ Seems to me that Yrreg is jumping the gun. To start from first principles: Yrreg, if you want a serious, honest debate please answer the the following - what do you believe, and why? If yrreg had wanted a serious, honest debate, he wouldn't have started with a strawman and a snide title.
	__________________ It is sad that this is necessary: Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly." Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly." [X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis

22nd August 2009, 07:13 PM	#412
PixyMisa Persnickety Insect Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sunny Munuvia Posts: 14,943	Originally Posted by yrreg What do you know to be the concept of God as accepted by Christians to be in fact existing? That it's not based on evidence or logic. Quote: Why do I want to know what you know to be the concept of God, the Christian God that is? Because you're consumed by irrelevancies. Quote: Because then I will know whether you are targeting the correct God, or you are missing altogether your target, and thus you are not being relevant in being atheists. You don't get it, do you? Your concept of God is irrelevant. Your beliefs are not special. We don't believe in any gods at all.
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22nd August 2009, 07:22 PM	#413
Lonewulf Humanistic Cyborg Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 10,380	Why do you people bother, anyways? It's a testament to your will and your endurance of mind to be able to continually bash your collective heads against such an indestructible wall.
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22nd August 2009, 07:48 PM	#414
remirol Senior Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Etlanna, Jawja Posts: 7,620	Originally Posted by yrreg Because then I will know whether you are targeting the correct God, or you are missing altogether your target, and thus you are not being relevant in being atheists. Swing and a miss! Atheism isn't "anti-god", no matter what value of "god" you pick. Atheism is "lack of belief in all gods". This includes whichever correct god you think you've found this week. Think of it as "god-indifferent", much like the aforementioned invisible pink unicorn in my closet. I don't check every night to make sure it isn't there; I'll worry about its existence if it ever shows up.
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22nd August 2009, 07:55 PM	#415
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	I think I get it. The concept of God exists, whether God exists or not. For those that believe God does not exist, (the christian one, btw) how would they imagine that concept to be? Or, what do we think a theist is imagining, when they imagine God? (This wording has a more pro-atheist approach, but it may be the same thing yrreg was trying to get at.)
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

22nd August 2009, 08:47 PM	#416
drzeus99 Hellmouth Beastie Join Date: May 2006 Location: Wherever misfortune has me Posts: 366	Originally Posted by Yoink <SNIP> and if all you mean by Nature is what anyone else means by Nature then I guess you can call it God or Arthur or Cyril or *Maude* or anything else you want to call it." <SNIP> Maude??? Hmmmm... for some reason, that brings a tune to my head: Lady Godiva was a freedom rider She didn't care if the whole world looked. Joan of Arc with the Lord to guide her She was a sister who really cooked. Isadora was the first bra burner And you're glad she showed up. (Oh yeah) And when the country was falling apart Betsy Ross got it all sewed up. And then there's Maude. And then there's Maude. And then there's Maude. And then there's Maude. And then there's Maude. And then there's Maude. And then there's That old compromisin', enterprisin', anything but tranquilizing, Right on Maude !!!!!!!
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22nd August 2009, 08:50 PM	#417
PixyMisa Persnickety Insect Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sunny Munuvia Posts: 14,943	Originally Posted by remirol Swing and a miss! Atheism isn't "anti-god", no matter what value of "god" you pick. Atheism is "lack of belief in all gods". This includes whichever correct god you think you've found this week. Right. Yrreg, what your concept of God is, is up to you to define, not us. You define it, and we'll tell you why we don't believe in it. Quote: Think of it as "god-indifferent", much like the aforementioned invisible pink unicorn in my closet. I don't check every night to make sure it isn't there; I'll worry about its existence if it ever shows up. Or you start finding invisible pink holes in all your shirts...
	__________________ Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO

22nd August 2009, 08:53 PM	#418
Andrewsarchus Scholar Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 118	Your argument is wrong Yregg. That is all.
Andrewsarchus Scholar Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 118

22nd August 2009, 09:04 PM	#419
drzeus99 Hellmouth Beastie Join Date: May 2006 Location: Wherever misfortune has me Posts: 366	Originally Posted by yrreg What do you know to be the concept of God as accepted by Christians to be in fact existing? Please take care that we are now into the concept of God accepted by Christians to be in fact existing, we are not now into the issue of the existence of God. Yrreg Ummm.... You just don't get it Yrreg, do you. The whole point of atheism is that we DON'T accept as FACT to be EXISTING, the christian god or ANY god. Obviously, we know that believers in ANY god accept the fact that their god exists, because they ARE BELIEVERS. That part we already got, and rightfully acknowledge...that people who believe in god (any god, including the christian god), believe that their god exists. That goes without saying, and is needlessly written as a caveat in your sentence for some unknown reason that only furthers to bewilder us and add to the confusion myself and others have in attempting to comprehend exactly what you're asking. If it's for us to suspend our logic, rational thought, and critical thinking, and somehow BELIEVE in, or pretend to BELIEVE in the existence of the christian (or any) god, you're just being a plain old silly ~~troll~~ goose.
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22nd August 2009, 09:21 PM	#420
drzeus99 Hellmouth Beastie Join Date: May 2006 Location: Wherever misfortune has me Posts: 366	Originally Posted by Pure_Argent But we do believe in Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth. I mean, we're all intelligent people here. Ummm.. Are you trying to tell me that there are people out there who DON'T BELIEVE in Cthulhu AND Yog-Sothoth??? You're kidding me, right? This must be some kind of joke. Say it ain't so..say it ain't so. C'mon now.... this has GOT TO BE a joke. I get it...alright..where's the cameras...where's Allen Funt (oh, he's dead...never mind)..umm I mean..how about Peter Funt??? Or that Ashton Kutcher fella. Someone's tryin to pull my leg.... Oh you guys..you almost had me goin there. Almost punk'd the good DrZ. I'm a little too smart to have the sheep pulled over my eyes. To think....someone actually NOT believing in Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth...LOL That's just too funny..and ridiculous. And for a second..just one second..I ALMOST bought into it. Now, how RIDICULOUS of a thought is that. Sheer lunacy, if you ask me. Even having to tell people that we believe in these 2.... almost had me going there... that there might be someone so blind, so utterly without any intelligence or common sense that they'd even question their existence... WHEW....
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23rd August 2009, 12:26 AM	#421
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,332	Originally Posted by Andrewsarchus Your argument is wrong Yregg. That is all. Wait, what. He has an argument?
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

23rd August 2009, 01:18 AM	#422
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Behind you! Posts: 9,182	Originally Posted by wollery Wait, what. He has an argument? Oh sorry, it's "being hit on the head" lessons in here...

23rd August 2009, 02:13 AM	#423
H3LL Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: (ləʊˈkeɪʃən) - n. 1. a site or position; situation. Posts: 4,976	Originally Posted by yrreg What do you know to be the concept of God as accepted by Christians to be in fact existing? Please take care that we are now into the concept of God accepted by Christians to be in fact existing, we are not now into the issue of the existence of God. Why do I want to know what you know to be the concept of God, the Christian God that is? Because then I will know whether you are targeting the correct God, or you are missing altogether your target, and thus you are not being relevant in being atheists. Yrreg Would that be the Christian God of the Anglican Communion or the Christian God of the Assyrian Church of the East or the Christian God of the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Christian God of the Oriental Orthodox Church or the Christian God of the Roman Catholic Church or the Christian God of the Other Churches that call themselves Catholic or the Christian God of the Pre-Lutheran Protestants or the Christian God of the Lutheranists or the Christian God of the Reformed Churches or the Christian God of the Presbyterianists or the Christian God of the Congregationalist Churches or the Christian God of the Anabaptists or the Christian God of the Brethren or the Christian God of the Methodists or the Christian God of the Pietists and Holiness Churches or the Christian God of the Baptists or the Christian God of the Apostolic Churches or the Christian God of the Irvingites or the Christian God of the Pentecostalists or the Christian God of the Charismatics or the Christian God of the African Initiated Churches or the Christian God of the United and uniting churches or the Christian God of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) or the Christian God of the Stone-Campbell Movement or the Christian God of the Southcottites or the Christian God of the Millerites and Comparable groups or the Christian God of the Anglo-Israelists or the Christian God of the Latter Day Saints or the Christian God of the Prairie Saints or the Christian God of the Rocky Mountains or the Christian God of the Oneness Pentecostalism or the Christian God of the Unitarianism and Universalists or the Christian God of the Swedenborgianism or the Christian God of the Messianic Judaism or the Christian God of the New Thought or the Christian God of the ethnic or syncretic religions incorporating elements of Christianity or the Christian God of the New Age movements or the Christian God of the Religions associated with the Yoruba or the Christian God of Esoteric Christianity? Or is it another one you have made up? Which church should I go to? I wouldn't want to mess it up and go to the wrong one. One of them must be right. They all think the others are wrong. Just askin' ... .
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23rd August 2009, 03:42 AM	#424
RevDisturba Muse Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 647	Originally Posted by yrreg I am now convinced that atheists have only genuine pseudo arguments against God. 1. Bad-mouthing God, like calling Him a Flying Spaghetti Monster, leprechaun, invisible pink unicorn, etc. 2. Laughing at God and theists who want to explain to them how God is a fact by engaging in frivolities, instead of attending carefully to the explanations from theists. 3. Pretending not to know what the issue is all about, or to not know anything which might enlighten them on the fact that God exists. What do you guys here say, atheists and theists and people who are neither but interested in the issue of God or no God for an academic inquiry? Yrreg, you know the answer to your own question don't you? Most Atheists are secure in their beliefs are not angry child like insulting jerks. Some sites have more than their fair share of abusive atheist AND Christians. The best thing to do is to not answer any replies that contain bait words such as the FSM, or associating religious icons with mythical figures, or calling religion myth. Those kind of comments belong in juvenile hall or to be used amongst school children. I see a this forum slightly trending upward towards ethical and debate in good faith and away from the Brownshirt/insultive' quagmire of the past. That bodes well for the future of our site (JREF). ; {> oops I was making my assessment of this forum getting better by the first few comments on page one, on page two I see the rhetoric and hate speech heating up from the usual suspects, sad! It seems that we still have a good measure of our unsavory juvenile types eh? Well this forum may still yet be a good place to post if the weeds can be pulled. The school children of the mentioned offensive insulting people. If I caught my children using those taunts and remarks they would be grounded of a week or worse.
RevDisturba Muse Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 647	__________________ Proverbs 26:4–5 ‘Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.’ Job 18:14 'His confidence shall be rooted out of his tabernacle, and it shall bring him to the king of terrors'. Last edited by RevDisturba; 23rd August 2009 at 03:50 AM.

23rd August 2009, 03:58 AM	#425
proudnonbbeliever Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Down Under Posts: 257	is gerry just an atheophile (if thats teh right word)?
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23rd August 2009, 04:04 AM	#426
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238	Originally Posted by RevDisturba The best thing to do is to not answer any replies that contain bait words such as the FSM, or associating religious icons with mythical figures, or calling religion myth. That neither you nor Yrreg can see that those are not bait words nor attempts to annoy you: but are in fact perfectly legitimate arguments which have not been addressed speaks volumes. This has been explained many times, not least in this thread. When you have answered the points it may be those arguments will be abandoned. Trying to pretend you are being insulted is just a way of avoiding the issues, so far as I can see.
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238

23rd August 2009, 04:10 AM	#427
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,708	The best thing to do is to not answer any replies that contain bait words such as God and Jesus, or calling evolution myth.
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23rd August 2009, 04:56 AM	#428
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329	You see, atheists, again you try to evade the question... You see, atheists, again you try to evade the question, not only try but actually avoiding the issue, instead going into what I call genuine pseudo arguments of bad mouthing God, laughing at God, and insisting you don't know nothing about the concept of God as understood by Christians. For latecomers, see my opening message, and my message in post #14. Yes, atheists, you have been saying since shall we say eternity that you lack belief in God or gods, but you have got to know what is the concept of God or gods you lack belief in, in order to be logical in calling yourselves atheists, and to understand what you read in writings directed against God. Yrreg
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329

23rd August 2009, 05:00 AM	#429
Twiler Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,494	Originally Posted by yrreg You see, atheists, again you try to evade the question, not only try but actually avoiding the issue, instead going into what I call genuine pseudo arguments of bad mouthing God, laughing at God, and insisting you don't know nothing about the concept of God as understood by Christians. For latecomers, see my opening message, and my message in post #14. Yes, atheists, you have been saying since shall we say eternity that you lack belief in God or gods, but you have got to know what is the concept of God or gods you lack belief in, in order to be logical in calling yourselves atheists, and to understand what you read in writings directed against God. Yrreg How about this: I do not believe in any entities who are said to be a source of absolute morality.
Twiler Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,494

23rd August 2009, 05:00 AM	#430
laca Illuminator Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3,176	Originally Posted by yrreg Yes, atheists, you have been saying since shall we say eternity that you lack belief in God or gods, but you have got to know what is the concept of God or gods you lack belief in, in order to be logical in calling yourselves atheists, and to understand what you read in writings directed against God. As has been pointed out to you several times before, atheists lack belief in any and all gods. Choose/define one. Atheists lack belief in it. Simple, isn't it?
laca Illuminator Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3,176

23rd August 2009, 05:06 AM	#431
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 25,030	Originally Posted by yrreg You see, atheists, again you try to evade the question, not only try but actually avoiding the issue, instead going into what I call genuine pseudo arguments of bad mouthing God, laughing at God, and insisting you don't know nothing about the concept of God as understood by Christians. I don't know what you're reading, but it's clearly not the comments in this thread. Please point to a post where any of the things you allege occurred. Quote: For latecomers, see my opening message, and my message in post #14. Really, there's no need, your comments are there for all to see. Quote: Yes, atheists, you have been saying since shall we say eternity that you lack belief in God or gods, Yes, you're getting the idea. Quote: but you have got to know what is the concept of God or gods you lack belief in, All of those for which there is no evidence of their existence. Quote: in order to be logical in calling yourselves atheists, and to understand what you read in writings directed against God. It still hasn't clicked, has it? How well do you understand the concept of all the Hindu gods? Do you lack belief in them?
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23rd August 2009, 05:10 AM	#432
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329	Thanks, Phase Inverter, for being relevant. Originally Posted by Phase Inverter Originally Posted by yrreg What do you know to be the concept of God as accepted by Christians to be in fact existing? To answer your question honestly and without getting off track, the God that the Christians believe exists: Has a name, Yahweh. Is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. Is responsible for the creation of plants, animals, and humans on earth. Is responsible for the creation of angels, and other beings in heaven. Is one, but at the same time three, being(s). One of which was known as logos, but was made flesh and is now called Jesus. Is referred to as being male. Revealed himself to mankind on various occasions in various forms. Directed the recording of these revelations in written form known as the Holy Bible. Demands obedience and worship. Chose one family to live while destroying every other human on earth. Chose one family and it's descendants to be his people. Dictated rules for worship, sacrifice, and behavior. Sent a part of himself, Jesus, as a blood sacrifice to forgive the disobedience of his people. Will punish for eternity all who do not accept or believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of their disobedience. Will grant eternal life and bliss to all those who do accept and believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of their disobedience. Will destroy heaven and earth and build a new heaven and earth with Jesus on the throne of the kingdom of God and the twelve disciples as rulers over the twelve tribes of his chosen people. Etc. Is this the God that you are "humanly certain" exists? Have I left anything out? Is there anything above that is incorrect? Is this the God that we are going to hear arguments for or against? Let me just invite you, Phase Inverter, for the present to your words in the following line in your list, the second item: [God] Is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. That line from you say in very few words what I myself as a rational theist and a Christian understand to be God, namely, the maker of everything including the physical universe, and author of the scheme of intelligent order prevailing in it. Yes, just keep to that line from your list and also my expanded version of that line, that is the concept of God which I am humanly certain in fact exists. For the present don't go into anything else, just stick to that line from your list and as I said, which I expand into my own version as stated above. Yrreg
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329

23rd August 2009, 05:22 AM	#433
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238	Ok. We are back to "What is wrong with this defintion of God " http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=135293 I will ask the mods to merge this thread, shall I ? Yes, I believe I will ETA: only trouble is deciding whether is is better merged with that one or with: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=147728 or even http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=148459 Hmm. I will stick with my first thought but if the mods think either of the others more appropriate so be it.
Fiona Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8,238	Last edited by Fiona; 23rd August 2009 at 05:30 AM.

23rd August 2009, 05:31 AM	#434
remirol Senior Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Etlanna, Jawja Posts: 7,620	Originally Posted by yrreg and insisting you don't know nothing about the concept of God as understood by Christians. Learn to write. Start by avoiding double negatives. I was raised Episcopalian. It isn't that I don't know about the Christian concept of god, but that I think it's a bunch of bunk. Quote: Yes, atheists, you have been saying since shall we say eternity that you lack belief in God or gods, but you have got to know what is the concept of God or gods you lack belief in, What part of "all" do you not understand? I'll make it slightly more clear. I lack belief in 100% of the concepts of god that I have been exposed to in this life. The ones I haven't ever heard of yet I can reserve judgment on, but I deem it unlikely that I won't lack belief in those, too. So, you go ahead and hold your concept up, and I'll proceed to lack belief in it. How's that?
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23rd August 2009, 05:59 AM	#435
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,478	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote The continents move faster. The incontinents move much faster.
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