Derren Brown Show

[yairhol]

Hi,
I never heard of Derren Brown until I visited this section of the forum.
I checked a video of his on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vz_YTNLn6w

I've gotta say, sorry but I don't believe it's real. These people that he's conjuring are actors. It's not logical at all that they look at the money, count it and one guy gives back change (change from what? He didn't count any money) and the other guy looks at the pile of paper he's been given and let's Brown out. And this is all happening because Brown asked about the subway? No way, I'm not buying it.
What makes you guys so sure it's real and not staged?

Thanks.

edit: this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_oUDev1rME
is complete garbage. He's guessing about the astology just like that without the woman ever saying a word. That's just staged and if not then he should take the $1M challenge because if that's real than he has paranormal powers.
can't understand what he's saying at 3:28 but whatver it is it's guessing. I'm sure the 3 ladies are part of the show.

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by yairhol

I've gotta say, sorry but I don't believe it's real. These people that he's conjuring are actors. It's not logical at all that they look at the money

If it was logical then they wouldn't call it a magic show.

Originally Posted by yairhol

What makes you guys so sure it's real and not staged?

Generally (not talking about just this trick, but magic in general) we might know exactly how it's done. Other times we know that tricks fool people and acknowledge that we don't know everything. In those cases I'd admit that it could be staged, but unless I know for sure then I wouldn't claim staging is the only possible way it could be done.

Originally Posted by yairhol

this video is complete garbage. He's guessing about the astology just like that without the woman ever saying a word. That's just staged and if not then he should take the $1M challenge because if that's real than he has paranormal powers.

That's called a false dichotomy (or false dilemma). You claim that it's either staged or real and ignore the other options. For example, it could be a trick that you can't figure out. It could be something that only happens one time out of 1000 and they didn't show you the 999 times it didn't work (those are just 2 of several other possibilities).

Do you assume that that when any other magician who does something you can't figure out that it must be either staged or real?

[yairhol]

I would accept that 1 out of 1000 argument or some other bizzare statistics but I don't think that's what's going on in the show otherwise that would be his only actions 24/7.
I'm not a magician and do not question when magicians interact with objects (like making them disappear by sleight of hand or simple yet genious 'technology') but interacting with people and in 3 minutes without them saying a word besides their name and he can guess what they're thinking and what they would like their dream date to be like etc...no, that's in the paranormal realm.

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by yairhol

I'm not a magician and do not question when magicians interact with objects (like making them disappear by sleight of hand or simple yet genious 'technology')

That's part of the point. Why don't you question that if you don't know? Why are you so sure it's sleight of hand or technology when you don't know?

Originally Posted by yairhol

but interacting with people and in 3 minutes without them saying a word besides their name and he can guess what they're thinking and what they would like their dream date to be like etc...no, that's in the paranormal realm.

It could be in the paranormal realm, if it was done in controlled circumstances, if you knew everything that happened before and after what you see on a TV show, if you eliminate all the other possibilities. But since he's never claimed any such abilities it's unlikely he going to apply for the MDC.

I can't say definitely that it wasn't staged, because I don't know (and haven't even seen the specific things you're talking about). But Darren is not known for massive staging or video editing tricks in his shows so I would not assume that's the only other possibility.

You're applying the same reasoning as people who go to psychics and say "there was just no way she could have known that" when in fact there are many ways she could have known it. You just don't know all the possibilities and disregard them.

[yairhol]

In the intro to the video he says that people ask him if he can use his mental skills to get beautiful women and he says yes and here is how I do it...(or something like that).
Well, it wouldn't be very interesting if Brown asked the ladies before hand what they liked or didn't like and then tape himself magically guessing what they like and don't like.

"Look at me, I will make this person disappear with the power of my mind"...cut...person walks out of frame....action "see, he disappeared".

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by yairhol

Well, it wouldn't be very interesting if Brown asked the ladies before hand what they liked or didn't like and then tape himself magically guessing what they like and don't like.

Well, it wouldn't be very interesting if that's what he did and everyone knew it. But the point remains. You don't know that he didn't do that, so why would you ignore that possibility and insist it must be real when that would be much more likely?

As far as I know, Brown doesn't stoop that low. But there have been magicians on TV who did did things that could be compared to that although not as blatant.

[yairhol]

Originally Posted by Bob Klase

Well, it wouldn't be very interesting if that's what he did and everyone knew it. But the point remains. You don't know that he didn't do that, so why would you ignore that possibility and insist it must be real when that would be much more likely?

I don't insist it is real. On the contrary, I said it must be faked.
I can't imagine a TV station stooping so low as to let such a show where they trick the audience into thinking that something is genuine when in fact it is totally staged.
So my reaction is that the guy is a true mentalist but doing what he did in those clips I posted is insulting the viewers' intelligence. I turned off the video clips close to the end because I felt like an idiot watching them.

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by yairhol

I don't insist it is real. On the contrary, I said it must be faked.

Of course it's faked. Brown is a magician and it's a magic show. But you insisted that it must be either real or that it's staged (in the sense that it's set up ahead of time and everyone involved is in on the trick).

Originally Posted by yairhol

I can't imagine a TV station stooping so low as to let such a show where they trick the audience into thinking that something is genuine when in fact it is totally staged.

Apparently you've never heard about Sylvia Brown on Montel Williams show.

[firecoins]

Originally Posted by yairhol

I would accept that 1 out of 1000 argument or some other bizzare statistics but I don't think that's what's going on in the show otherwise that would be his only actions 24/7.
I'm not a magician and do not question when magicians interact with objects (like making them disappear by sleight of hand or simple yet genious 'technology') but interacting with people and in 3 minutes without them saying a word besides their name and he can guess what they're thinking and what they would like their dream date to be like etc...no, that's in the paranormal realm.

you aren't educated in cold readings.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by yairhol

I can't imagine a TV station stooping so low as to let such a show where they trick the audience into thinking that something is genuine when in fact it is totally staged.

Isn't that what "reality TV" is all about?

[yairhol]

Originally Posted by firecoins

you aren't educated in cold readings.

I'm educated enough to know that there is a need for interaction between the 'psychic' and the 'gullible'.
In the video I posted Deren Brown approaches 3 women and asks for their names. Then he starts guessing about what they like and don't like in their dream dates and every guess is accurate. That's not cold reading.
I once thought that the people appearing in the Criss Angel episodes are actually people on the street. Then people here told me that they were actually actors and are in on the plot. Since then I have not seen another Criss Angel show. What's the big deal if everyone is on his side and there is heavy use of camera trickery?
Using such tactics anyone can do what he does.

Quote:

"Look at me, I will make this person disappear with the power of my mind"...cut...person walks out of frame....action "see, he disappeared".

If Derren Brown is a mentalist then he should do real things. They may be simpler than what he has in his current videos but at least the viewer can really appreciate Brown's skills.

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by yairhol

I once thought that the people appearing in the Criss Angel episodes are actually people on the street.

Some (even most) are.

Originally Posted by yairhol

If Derren Brown is a mentalist then he should do real things.

What do you mean by "real" things? He's a mentalist- he has no actual paranormal abilities.

[yairhol]

Not paranormal but trickery of the mind. Real trickery designed to trick his subjects on the show, not staged trickery designed to fool the audience.
Most magicians (not mentalists) perform to fool their audience. A mentalist needs to work with the audience in order to fool a third party.
Or so I think.

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by yairhol

Not paranormal but trickery of the mind. Real trickery designed to trick his subjects on the show, not staged trickery designed to fool the audience.

I've been in magic for 50 years and I don't know how he did the thing with the money/blank paper, but you seem to be concluding that it's staged and the subjects are not fooled based only on the assumption that if if wasn't staged you'd be able to figure out possible methods.

I don't know exactly how he did the bit with the 3 girls, but I can think of at least 2 different ways that are not staged.

I would not assume anything is staged unless I know for sure, or unless I see some evidence other than "I can't figure out other any way to do it".

Originally Posted by yairhol

Most magicians (not mentalists) perform to fool their audience. A mentalist needs to work with the audience in order to fool a third party.

Some magicians do mentalism and mentalists are magicians. There can be differences between between the two, but that's not one of them. Both perform to fool their audience. Either can work with the audience to fool a third party.

[Chris H]

Originally Posted by yairhol

In the intro to the video he says that people ask him if he can use his mental skills to get beautiful women and he says yes and here is how I do it...(or something like that).

This is meant to be tongue in cheek, and I expect it was planted by him for when he knew that the news would come out that he is a homosexual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derren_Brown#Personal_life

I'm a big fan of Brown, and I don't know how he does a lot of the things that he does. As a magician, I can guess at a few. I will say that I've seen him live in London twice, and his live show is spectacular. He goes to extraordinary lengths to demonstrate that his participants are selected at random, and some of his routines are simply mind boggling.

He is an atheist, and a skeptic though. Quite a bit of his later work subtly deals with skepticism. Check out 'The Seance'. If you want to know a bit more about him, he has a book out for the general public that I don't think is particularly expensive these days.

Amazon UK

Cheers,

Chris

[DJM]

Originally Posted by yairhol

Hi,
I never heard of Derren Brown until I visited this section of the forum.
I checked a video of his on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vz_YTNLn6w

I've gotta say, sorry but I don't believe it's real. These people that he's conjuring are actors. It's not logical at all that they look at the money, count it and one guy gives back change (change from what? He didn't count any money) and the other guy looks at the pile of paper he's been given and let's Brown out. And this is all happening because Brown asked about the subway? No way, I'm not buying it.
What makes you guys so sure it's real and not staged?

You don't need any actors to do that, and there's nothing staged. In fact the blank money effect is originally meant to be done during a real life situation, such as ordering stuff at a restaurant with people around. Derren changes a few things during that clip to make it more suitable for TV, but the idea is basically the same.

But it's a step in the right direction that you don't buy his question about the subway, misdirection is a big part of mentalism and magic.

[dezrah]

I'm going to chime in with the other magicians here. Just because you don't know the method, doesn't mean there isn't one. For instance: Derren is well known for using effects that don't always pay off, but when they do, they seem impossible. (Try his books "Absolute Magic" and/or Pure Effect for a fantastic background on his magic and thinking)

In fact, most mentalists use material that has a high risk/reward ratio. In my own show, I end with an effect that doesn't work 9 times out of 10. It's done with humor, so if it fails, I still get a great close with laughs and applause, but when it hits, it's simply amazing. The audience is left with the false dicotomy of real powers or stooges .

Some people have been guilty of using stooges in the past, but with the wide range of absolutely incredible stooge-less effects available and the high risk of getting caught, only the lazy would bother "faking" it.

Final case in point: A routine by Banachek called "Psycokinetic Touches". One spectator closes his eyes, and on the other side of the stage, the magician touches a 2nd spectator somewhere on their body. The first spectator is able to accurately describe the location and amount of touches, and even claims to have felt the touches themself. Impossible without stooges? Nope. I do it all the time.

And no, I won't tell you how it's done. ;P

[c4llum]

I think this shows how easily people can be foooled to believe something is paranormal. Derren Bown is exceptionally good. He doesn't claim to have paranormal powers. He uses all kinds of techniques, NLP (not sure about that on) hypnosis, and mind tricks and is very good at 'reading' things from peoples faces, bodylanguage etc..
If you believe it was set up. Just go to one of his live performances.

[mummymonkey]

Originally Posted by c4llum

He uses all kinds of techniques, NLP (not sure about that on) hypnosis, and mind tricks and is very good at 'reading' things from peoples faces, bodylanguage etc..

I don't believe in any of that either. They're just presentation and misdirection. He's a good magician, the mind stuff is just his "angle".

[c4llum]

Originally Posted by mummymonkey

I don't believe in any of that either. They're just presentation and misdirection. He's a good magician, the mind stuff is just his "angle".

I've seen him use these techniques. There is no question whether he does or doesn't. Just check out some of his work in youtube. It's clear he uses these techniques and there is no other way of him 'knowing' these things.

[Garrette]

Originally Posted by c4llum

I've seen him use these techniques. There is no question whether he does or doesn't. Just check out some of his work in youtube. It's clear he uses these techniques and there is no other way of him 'knowing' these things.

You are incorrect, and mummymonkey is correct. He is not the only one who does those things, and others don't claim NLP. DB, in fact, denounces NLP in his latest book.

ETA: Re-reading my post, I see that it comes across as harsh. I don't intend it that way. Your conclusion that Derren Brown actually uses those techniques is reasonable if, as I surmise from your age (posted on your profile), you are unfamiliar with magic and with the things Derren Brown has written.

Two important points that I hope you learn sooner rather than later are these:

1. People deceive other people, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not; sometimes with ill intent, sometimes not.

2. The fact that you can't think of how something is done does not mean someone else can't think of how to do it.

Best wishes

[Garrette]

And my apologies, c4llum, for not saying it before:

Welcome to the forums. It's good to have curious and confident youngsters here.

[c4llum]

Originally Posted by Garrette

And my apologies, c4llum, for not saying it before:

Welcome to the forums. It's good to have curious and confident youngsters here.

cheers!

[themagicwand]

Originally Posted by yairhol

That's just staged and if not then he should take the $1M challenge because if that's real than he has paranormal powers.

Thank you. That just made me laugh so hard I nearly died. You don't know magic do you?

[dezrah]

Originally Posted by themagicwand

Thank you. That just made me laugh so hard I nearly died. You don't know magic do you?

But that's our job, as skeptical magicians, isn't it? To educate the public about what is possible with trickery and performance? There are a lot of people who assume that if they can't figure out how it's done, it could be "real".

Expose? No. Educate? Yes.

[edd]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that exposure would often backfire anyway. If someone ends up thinking they know how it's all done, when they see something they can't explain would they be more likely to make exactly the error dezrah describes?
I've overheard numerous people walking out of a Derren Brown show thinking they know how something was done, when really they were quite a long way off the mark. Maybe a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by dezrah

There are a lot of people who assume that if they can't figure out how it's done, it could be "real".

Or that it was editting..SFX, etc.

[Locutus]

Given Derren Brown's popularity in the UK, his friendship with people like Dawkins (notorious for his despising of charlatans) and many of his programmes that are about debunking spiritualism and the existence of 'real' magic, I don't think that he "cheats" on his tricks. He's an accomplished mentalist for a reason: he drives people crazy trying to work out how he does it.

[MikeSun5]

Derren Brown's show is obviously dressed up for television, but I doubt he uses camera tricks and stooges as much as some have suggested. And sometimes, his "explanations" are part of the misdirection. I have a video of a young DB doing a lecture where he really shows off some impressive mentalism on a tiny stage. He does a routine called Reminiscence that is absolutely amazing whether you know the method or not.
It's not like that video proves he doesn't "cheat," I'm just saying he's good enough to not have to.

[edd]

Originally Posted by MikeSun5

Derren Brown's show is obviously dressed up for television, but I doubt he uses camera tricks and stooges as much as some have suggested. And sometimes, his "explanations" are part of the misdirection. I have a video of a young DB doing a lecture where he really shows off some impressive mentalism on a tiny stage. He does a routine called Reminiscence that is absolutely amazing whether you know the method or not.
It's not like that video proves he doesn't "cheat," I'm just saying he's good enough to not have to.

Seconding this. If he required camera tricks he'd not be currently on tour with a stage show.

And the risks of using stooges are too great - you do not want to be caught using a stooge when you can do things a more reputable way.

[Azrael 5]

I cannot see the youtube links "In my country",I know what the blank paper effect is but what is the other one being mentioned with 3 women?

[firecoins]

Originally Posted by edd

And the risks of using stooges are too great - you do not want to be caught using a stooge when you can do things a more reputable way.

what makes you think stooges are not a reputable method? You certainly don't want to get caught using any method.

[firecoins]

Originally Posted by edd

Seconding this. If he required camera tricks he'd not be currently on tour with a stage show.

.

Copperfield used camera tricks and his stage shows generate millions. Its a perfectly acceptable method.

[MikeSun5]

Originally Posted by firecoins

Copperfield used camera tricks and his stage shows generate millions. Its a perfectly acceptable method.

Apples and oranges. Stage magic needs certain types of angles and stooges to work. Most mentalism doesn't require it. Again, DB may use that stuff, but he doesn't need to. Copperfield does.

The only thing they really have in common is that sleazy raised eyebrow thing they both do.

[yairhol]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

I cannot see the youtube links "In my country",I know what the blank paper effect is but what is the other one being mentioned with 3 women?

I'm at work now and can't watch the video but from what I remember DB approaches 3 ladies sitting and he joins them. They hardly say anything and he suddenly knows about their sign and about the type of men they like and all sorts of things. They agree with everything he says.


The first video where he pays people blank papers, they 'count' it and the transaction is finalized and DB walk a way - I just can't believe it's real. If I was working in a store and someone came in, bought something and asked where the subway was (no matter how he asked it), that wouldn't make me suddenly be willing to receive blank paper, count it (count what?) and put it in the cashier. Sorry, no way.

[yairhol]

Originally Posted by dezrah

I'm going to chime in with the other magicians here. Just because you don't know the method, doesn't mean there isn't one. For instance: Derren is well known for using effects that don't always pay off, but when they do, they seem impossible. (Try his books "Absolute Magic" and/or Pure Effect for a fantastic background on his magic and thinking)

In fact, most mentalists use material that has a high risk/reward ratio. In my own show, I end with an effect that doesn't work 9 times out of 10. It's done with humor, so if it fails, I still get a great close with laughs and applause, but when it hits, it's simply amazing. The audience is left with the false dicotomy of real powers or stooges .

Some people have been guilty of using stooges in the past, but with the wide range of absolutely incredible stooge-less effects available and the high risk of getting caught, only the lazy would bother "faking" it.

Final case in point: A routine by Banachek called "Psycokinetic Touches". One spectator closes his eyes, and on the other side of the stage, the magician touches a 2nd spectator somewhere on their body. The first spectator is able to accurately describe the location and amount of touches, and even claims to have felt the touches themself. Impossible without stooges? Nope. I do it all the time.

And no, I won't tell you how it's done. ;P

I saw that once live at a show by some magician. AMAZING!!
I can't even start to imagine how it's done.

[yairhol]

Here's an article complaining about DB:

http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

[MikeSun5]

Originally Posted by yairhol

Here's an article complaining about DB:

http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

That's like 6 years old. Derren Brown has said, even on his website, that his routines consist of "psychological illusion, perceptual manipulation and persuasive technique." He's never claimed to be a psychologist, although he does claim to utilize NLP (which we all know is bogus). That's all part of the misdirection.
His setup usually includes intensive screening of participants to ensure a decent effect. Also, he's extremely patient. One of the things he did on his show was flip a coin so it landed 'heads' 10 times in a row - without camera tricks. He admitted it took him many hours to get that footage, as he had to flip thousands of coins to get that to happen (odds were against him, after all). Those two tactics can yeild surprising results. I don't know all of his tricks, nor would I shout them out here if I did. It's just lame when people can't see this stuff for what it is: good entertainment.
Personally, I doubt very much that he used stooges on that Paying with Paper routine. If you don't know, you don't know... Just say that and don't claim it's camera tricks and stooges. Because seriously, you don't know.

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by firecoins

Copperfield used camera tricks and his stage shows generate millions. Its a perfectly acceptable method.

Not really. Copperfield only used them a couple times fairly early in his television career. Although whether it's acceptable would depend on exactly how you define 'camera trick'- it's a tricky question.

[Chris H]

Go to any of Derren Browns shows and you'll see that he goes to extraordinary lengths to prove that stooges aren't used. Every audience member is selected via a throw of a soft toy or frisbee. He's good, but I don't imagine that magic boy is a world champion frisbee thrower, and as a magician, I'm more than convinced that no stooges are used. Copperfield however...