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BenBurch · 21st February 2009, 09:32 PM

The Grizzly population in the lower 48 is thought to be about 1300 individuals.

So, by makaya's thinking, there would be no roadkill, right?

Therefore, I just am imagining this;

http://www.newwest.net/city/article/18257/C8/L8/

And table 11 in here must not exist either;

http://www.wildraven.net/carnivores/...ty/report.html

makaya325 · 21st February 2009, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

The Grizzly population in the lower 48 is thought to be about 1300 individuals.

So, by makaya's thinking, there would be no roadkill, right?

Therefore, I just am imagining this;

http://www.newwest.net/city/article/18257/C8/L8/

And table 11 in here must not exist either;

http://www.wildraven.net/carnivores/...ty/report.html

I believe a ratio of solitary animals who see, like most humans, "Big truck, dont cross!". Of course, some will be hit, and reports indicate that. MOST reports arent near roads at all.

Whats interesting is that some are undertermined: bigfoot related perhaps?

LTC8K6 · 21st February 2009, 09:35 PM

The number and location of reported sightings means there would be road kill, stanfr.

There's no point in trying to manufacture actual numbers of bigfoot, imo.

We have basically one reliable statistic to use, and that is the number of reports.

makaya325 · 21st February 2009, 09:38 PM

No there wouldnt. Reports GENERALLY occur in REMOTE areas. Some arent remote, but that doesnt mean a whole family is in populated areas, maybe 1 or 2 near roads

There's no point in trying to manufacture actual numbers of bigfoot, imo.

We have basically one reliable statistic to use, and that is the number of reports.[/quote]

LTC8K6 · 21st February 2009, 09:44 PM

End of makaya's argument...

http://www.bfro.net/news/google_earth.asp

BenBurch · 21st February 2009, 09:48 PM

I was hoping for somebody who could actually argue against this. Maybe if I give it time one will appear with arguments that pass muster?

BenBurch · 21st February 2009, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by makaya325

... Dont bother me with facts, my minds already made up-kitz

kitakaze · 21st February 2009, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti

Very true, stan.

If Bigfoot exists....it would be intelligent enough to know that 'big things headed straight for it, would....most likely....hurt a lot upon impact.

Why, I can practically hear it's thoughts now...

...

"Gee, I have absolutely no clue what makes that thing go...(though I'm almost certain it's not nuculer-powered

)......and it's closin-in reeeeeaal quick-like....I think I'll MOVE!!"

The near-human creature would, if at all possible, avoid being hit.

How truly dumb. Any animal would avoid being hit. A fly avoids being hit. Gee, Sweaty, since Bigfoot apparently dart out in front of cars and logging trucks, they can't be too smart, can they? How dumb is this Bigfoot?:

Teenagers see animal lying in the middle of the road near Schoal Creek.

BTW, Sweaty, what was that about little mak's keen powers of observations?:

Originally Posted by makaya325

When i first say the memorial day footage, i couldnt stop shaking my head. Its clearly a hoax, and the costume was found.

MattusMaximus · 21st February 2009, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Where is all the Bigfoot road kill?

Silly question. Everyone knows the aliens have beamed them all up - sheesh!

LTC8K6 · 21st February 2009, 10:09 PM

BFRO sighting reports plotted via google Earth:

kitakaze · 21st February 2009, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by makaya325

snipped to remove hack-job quoting by little mak

Makaya, please answer post #77 properly and the questions as they have been specified. Are you afraid of being honest? So far you failed the test miserably. Also mentioning unreported sightings has absolutely nothing to do with the argument you made of over 50% of sightings occurring in the PNW and the source you cited. Are you an intellectual coward?

kitakaze · 21st February 2009, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by makaya325

So you shouldnt even bother considering whether it exists..

Dont bother me with facts, my minds already made up-kitz

Your facts? Let's see... Over 50% of sightings are in the PNW, very few sightings deal with roadside encounters, the MDF is a costume which has been found... those kind of facts?

Your "facts" have the funny habit of looking like something that fell out of your butt.

kitakaze · 21st February 2009, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by makaya325

MOST reports arent near roads at all.

Crap footer claim. Evidence, please.

kitakaze · 21st February 2009, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by makaya325

Reports GENERALLY occur in REMOTE areas.

Crap footer claim. Evidence, please.

kitakaze · 21st February 2009, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

BFRO sighting reports plotted via google Earth:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...0ebf14ff4f.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...0ec014a940.jpg

Excellent.

Safe-Keeper · 22nd February 2009, 02:03 AM

Quote:

If Bigfoot exists....it would be intelligent enough to know that 'big things headed straight for it, would....most likely....hurt a lot upon impact.

As opposed to humans, who are either too dumb to realize this, or want to be run down?

Give me a break. Intelligence has never been an issue.

BenBurch · 22nd February 2009, 07:01 AM

Amazing how many points on that Google Earth layer are on roads or in populated areas... LOL.

BenBurch · 22nd February 2009, 07:15 AM

HAHA! There is one 13 miles from my house out near Hampshire. On a tiny creek about a half mile from a road and in an area (as all areas here would be) closely bounded by roads. Illinois is a gridwork of roads of various importance that run alone ancient farm property lines. This one was near Rt 72 and not far from people's houses at all.

Yeah, that bigboot never had to cross any roads. LOL.

desertgal · 22nd February 2009, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

Silly question. Everyone knows the aliens have beamed them all up - sheesh!

No, no. Haven't you heard? There is no Bigfoot road kill because they survive death.

And then they get beamed up.

LTC8K6 · 22nd February 2009, 10:18 PM

Re-hosted...

BFRO sighting reports plotted via google Earth:

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...efb7cc8b6g.jpg

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...2fa4a2ba6g.jpg

JoeTheJuggler · 22nd February 2009, 10:46 PM

Frankly, I don't see the value of talking about the absence of evidence (even the sort of evidence that is reasonably expected). I'd rather evaluate the evidence for the existence of Bigfoot. If it's not sufficient to the astounding claim that a previously unknown large primate inhabits North America, then I provisionally reject the claim.

I'll reconsider when a peer-reviewed mainstream journal has accepted the discovery of a new species of large primate in North America.

manofthesea · 22nd February 2009, 11:22 PM

I guess for a reasonable comparison maybe some sharp internet p.i. could post stats and links of gorilla, orangutan, and chimpanzee roadkill occuring in their native habitats. That's assuming they're apes and not neanderthals.

EHocking · 23rd February 2009, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by manofthesea

I guess for a reasonable comparison maybe some sharp internet p.i. could post stats and links of gorilla, orangutan, and chimpanzee roadkill occuring in their native habitats. That's assuming they're apes and not neanderthals.

Here's some crazy gorilla vs bf roadkill stats:

Republic of Congo
Human Population: 3.9M
Gorilla Population: 125,000
Land Area: 341,000km²
Airports : 5 paved
Roads: 17,289km

Ontario
Human Population: 11.4M
Bigfoot Sightings: 62
Land Area: 917,741km²
Airports : 41 paved
Roads: 191,000km

OK, so the human population density is similar:
RoC / Ontario
11.42 / 12.42
close enough to 1:1

But the number of "animals isn't
RoC / Ontario
0.37 / 0.000068
or 5440:1 odd

ratio of roads / km²?
RoC / Ontario
0.05 / 0.21
or 1:4

ratio of paved roads / km²?
RoC / Ontario
0.005 / 0.13
or 1:26

passenger cars per 1000 people
RoC / Ontario
16.4 / 1220
or 1:74

So in Ontario, you have a similar human population density to the RoC. With 74 times as many passenger cars 4 times as many roads, it seems you have nearly 300 times more chance of seeing a BF by the side of the road in Ontario than you do of seeing a gorilla by the side of the road in Congo. On paved roads only, you are nearly 2000 times more likely to see a BF than a gorilla in similar circumstances.

Yet, we can confidently estimate (having seen, photographed, studied up close and found/dissected bodies) that the Congo gorilla population is in the realm of 125,000 and there is not ONE BF has been confirmed anywhere.

BenBurch · 23rd February 2009, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Frankly, I don't see the value of talking about the absence of evidence (even the sort of evidence that is reasonably expected). I'd rather evaluate the evidence for the existence of Bigfoot. If it's not sufficient to the astounding claim that a previously unknown large primate inhabits North America, then I provisionally reject the claim.

I'll reconsider when a peer-reviewed mainstream journal has accepted the discovery of a new species of large primate in North America.

In this case it is not an absence of evidence! The lack of road kill is positive evidence that either the beasts do not exist or that their numbers are vanishingly small. We exclude the latter case by reproductive reality - a population of a handful of individuals is functionally extinct, and over the course of the time when you might have expected road or rail kill would have become zero.

Which makes the Bigfoot one of those phenomena like UFOs or Spring Heel Jack; Lots of people report it. The honest ones were misidentifying something mundane, the rest are, charitably, deluded.

Drewbot · 23rd February 2009, 08:04 AM

For bigfoot to avoid being found as roadkill, because his 'kin' come and clean him up, what if the kin got whacked too, and his kin after him? I mean eventually the low population of bigfeet would work against them, and they'd run out of corpse cleaner-uppers.

How many times have you seen 10 or 12 Raccoons dead, because they were travelling together across the road? And they aren't even trying to clean up a dead sibling, they are just crossing the road.

Biscuit · 23rd February 2009, 08:21 AM

Has no one considered the 'fact' that bigfoot is actually trans-dimensional and phase shifts before it gets hit by a car?

I thought not. Shame on all of you.

Seriously though, another animal that is an interesting comparison is the big horn sheep. Wiki has their population at around 19K in the U.S. As recently as the early 90's that number was in the thousands. Their territory is almost the entire SW. Big horn sheep are very shy and reclusive animals that stay far away from people and predators. Every big horn sheep territory I have ever been to prohibits dogs and has a lot of rules for conduct as these creatures are very sensitive to intruders and are easily upset. Big horn sheep prefer remote high altitude mountain cliffs and valleys to live in. There are very few roads or railroads in their territories due to the intrusion that would cause.

I have been lucky enough to see them on several occasions in various parts of Arizona. Our population is in the low thousands and I have only ever seen them from a distance. Their is no chance of sneaking up on one.

Despite all of this there are photos, videos, live and dead specimens, and guess what.... road kill.

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/publications...horn_Sheep.pdf

Bottom of page 40.

BenBurch · 24th February 2009, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

Has no one considered the 'fact' that bigfoot is actually trans-dimensional and phase shifts before it gets hit by a car?...

Actually, they ARE extinct, having all died in Noah's flood along with the dinosaurs and unicorns and these reports are their ghosts.

JoeTheJuggler · 24th February 2009, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

In this case it is not an absence of evidence! The lack of road kill is positive evidence that either the beasts do not exist or that their numbers are vanishingly small.

No, it's actually an absence of evidence. There is no drawer at the Smithsonian with the label "Lack of Bigfoot Roadkill". Granted, in this case the absence of evidence is significant.

The fact is, it's up to Bigfoot claimants to make their case, and they've failed. Period.

My ex wife is a botanist, and for her to publish an article entitled "A new species of x" (where x is some taxon--usually a family), no peer review process would turn it down because years or centuries of the "lack" of anything. They just check to see that she's collected and made a herbarium specimen or examined existing herbarium specimens and that she's done a good job of the systematics (making the case that her sample isn't a known species).

BenBurch · 24th February 2009, 11:14 AM

No, when you have a properly constrained definition, a negative result is evidence.

Suppose I have a hypothesis about some physical law, and from that I predict that some action one can perform experimentally will fail to produce a result you otherwise would see if the hypothesis were false. And then I perform that experiment and my results are consistent with the hypothesis, I can say I have supported that hypothesis with negative evidence.

In this case we predict that any large creature that is seen literally all over the country will be detectable in road kill if it exists. We have great surveillance of the roads, with peace officers passing down each one frequently, and insurance paperwork to document any roadkill with large creatures. And we observe no such road kill in spite of hundreds of examples of really rare creatures being observed as road kill, then we can state said large creature either does not exist or exists in absolutely vanishing numbers.

Aepervius · 24th February 2009, 11:53 AM

I tend to agree with Joe here. It is very significant that there are no road kill and should be reflected into any actual study or evidence on bigfoot. But it ain#t evidence of bigfoot not existing.

But the point is moot anyway as there is not the slightiest evidence of bigfoot exsitence whatsoever.

Correa Neto · 24th February 2009, 05:17 PM

Oh boy, sweaty is going to add your last sentence to his collection of misquotes...

quarky · 24th February 2009, 05:30 PM

What if, when you kill a big-foot by car, you automaticly become a bigfoot?
And then you're just another missing person to the folks you leave behind.

(I haven't figured out what happens to the car yet.)

GT/CS · 24th February 2009, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

What if, when you kill a big-foot by car, you automaticly become a bigfoot?
And then you're just another missing person to the folks you leave behind.

(I haven't figured out what happens to the car yet.)

The alien overlords beam it up.

quarky · 24th February 2009, 06:22 PM

If a bear can ride a unicycle, a bigfoot can drive a car.

xblade · 24th February 2009, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

What if, when you kill a big-foot by car, you automaticly become a bigfoot?
And then you're just another missing person to the folks you leave behind.

(I haven't figured out what happens to the car yet.)

The new bigfoot summons several other bigfoots, and they proceed to eat the dead bigfoot AND the car.

xblade · 24th February 2009, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by makaya325

No there wouldnt. Reports GENERALLY occur in REMOTE areas. Some arent remote, but that doesnt mean a whole family is in populated areas, maybe 1 or 2 near roads

JoeTheJuggler · 24th February 2009, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

No, when you have a properly constrained definition, a negative result is evidence.

Negative result of what?

You're talking about the absence of evidence, not "positive evidence".

Positive evidence is what those claiming Bigfoot exists must provide. If they fail, I provisionally reject the claim that Bigfoot exists. Knowing what I do about the Great Apes, it would take some impressive evidence indeed.

Quote:

Suppose I have a hypothesis about some physical law, and from that I predict that some action one can perform experimentally will fail to produce a result you otherwise would see if the hypothesis were false. And then I perform that experiment and my results are consistent with the hypothesis, I can say I have supported that hypothesis with negative evidence.

Again, with Bigfoot roadkill, what is the test or experiment that resulted in a negative result?

Absence of roadkill is not the same thing as a negative result.

BenBurch · 25th February 2009, 08:55 AM

Let me restate it;

It can be established that roadkill provides a reliable assay of larger terrestrial fauna, and can be used within limits to establish relative populations of specific animal from place-to-place. If one then hypothesizes an unknown large terrestrial animal, one predicts that this signal will be found in examination of roadkill data. Upon examination no signal is found. This sets an upper limit on the number of this hypothesized unknown terrestrial animal. As can be seen from the Grizzly data, this upper limit for that animal has to be very small, with zero not excluded. From basic principles of population biology, any animal with that small a breeding population is functionally extinct. This is positive evidence.

Starthinker · 25th February 2009, 11:02 AM

I know I'm coming into this late, and no, I did not read all 4 or 5 pages, but I thought I would pass along this sighting.

Quote:

The reason I started researching bigfoot as a kid was because of a story my dad told me. He was a truck driver, coast-to-coast, and would be gone for weeks at a time. One trip he came home empty, something he almost never did, and was shook up a bit. He said while driving through thick forest something jogged (he said it was faster than a walk, slower than a run) into the road. He slammed on the brakes only because he thought at first it was a person, you see, as a trucker you never slam on your brakes as it will cause jack-knifing and if a deer jumped out in front of you, you simply "drove through it" and stopped normally. In any case, this is one of the rare times he slammed on the breaks and the truck was lurching all over the road and the thing that ran out in front of him hit the front of the truck, full frontal, almost like it knew it wasn't going to make so decided to jump on instead. This is a cab-over by the way, the old type where the front of the truck was as flat as a brick. My dad said, it just turned and he hit it but by that time he was slowed considerably. The beast looked him right in the face with a human type horror in it, it probably thought it was going to die. The truck lurched to a stop a split second later and the creature fell backwards, did a roll, and ran off the highway into the woods. The thing that upset my dad the most, according to him, was that the face was right there against the windshield, a good 7 or 8 feet from the ground. I know I'm 6'1" and the top of my head would be even with the bottom of his windshield. He would just say that face was human, but not human. Like the pictures of cavemen, but with more modern features, dark skin, and the facial expression was undeniable. My dad always said that whatever it was, it was more scared than he was.

Now my dad always told the tall tale but we could always tell when he was spinning a yarn or telling the truth. In any case when he was 72 he had a stroke and lay in a hospital bed for three days mumbling all kinds of weird things. It was the most heart-wrentching moment of my life. He talked through how to rebuild an engine, he gave directions from Detroit to Miami, and at one point he was mumbling about all the "lies" he told. (We knew they were tall tales, exagerations, but we never called them lies, those were his words.) But, he said, he really hit that bigfoot and he never took that route again and it really scared the bejesus out of him. I don't think in his stroke-induced delirium he would have had the wits to lie or spin a tale at that point, and that is the only reason I now believe that this encounter really took place.

Now, this took place in the early 70's, according to him happened about 3 in the morning on a 4 lane highway somewhere past Denver heading west. He was the only vehicle on the road and didn't stop until he hit an open truckstop but I never got specifics on that, I was after all just a teen ager at the time. I wish I knew then what I know now, I would have looked for all kinds of stuff but back then it was just a gee-wiz story.

desertyeti · 25th February 2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

He would just say that face was human, but not human. Like the pictures of cavemen, but with more modern features, dark skin, and the facial expression was undeniable.

Sounds like he hit a person.

21st February 2009, 09:32 PM	#121
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	The Grizzly population in the lower 48 is thought to be about 1300 individuals. So, by makaya's thinking, there would be no roadkill, right? Therefore, I just am imagining this; http://www.newwest.net/city/article/18257/C8/L8/ And table 11 in here must not exist either; http://www.wildraven.net/carnivores/...ty/report.html
	__________________ Are you IN? Join the IN crowd now!

21st February 2009, 09:34 PM	#122
makaya325 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: It's ok, im a limo driver! Posts: 4,655	Originally Posted by BenBurch The Grizzly population in the lower 48 is thought to be about 1300 individuals. So, by makaya's thinking, there would be no roadkill, right? Therefore, I just am imagining this; http://www.newwest.net/city/article/18257/C8/L8/ And table 11 in here must not exist either; http://www.wildraven.net/carnivores/...ty/report.html I believe a ratio of solitary animals who see, like most humans, "Big truck, dont cross!". Of course, some will be hit, and reports indicate that. MOST reports arent near roads at all. Whats interesting is that some are undertermined: bigfoot related perhaps?
	Last edited by makaya325; 21st February 2009 at 09:36 PM.

21st February 2009, 09:35 PM	#123
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,756	The number and location of reported sightings means there would be road kill, stanfr. There's no point in trying to manufacture actual numbers of bigfoot, imo. We have basically one reliable statistic to use, and that is the number of reports.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

21st February 2009, 09:44 PM	#125
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,756	End of makaya's argument... http://www.bfro.net/news/google_earth.asp
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

21st February 2009, 09:48 PM	#126
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	I was hoping for somebody who could actually argue against this. Maybe if I give it time one will appear with arguments that pass muster?
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21st February 2009, 09:38 PM	#124
makaya325 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: It's ok, im a limo driver! Posts: 4,655	No there wouldnt. Reports GENERALLY occur in REMOTE areas. Some arent remote, but that doesnt mean a whole family is in populated areas, maybe 1 or 2 near roads There's no point in trying to manufacture actual numbers of bigfoot, imo. We have basically one reliable statistic to use, and that is the number of reports.[/quote]

21st February 2009, 09:49 PM	#127
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Originally Posted by makaya325 ... Dont bother me with facts, my minds already made up-kitz
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21st February 2009, 10:08 PM	#128
kitakaze Resident DJ/NSA Supermole Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada Posts: 9,461	Originally Posted by SweatyYeti Very true, stan. If Bigfoot exists....it would be intelligent enough to know that 'big things headed straight for it, would....most likely....hurt a lot upon impact. Why, I can practically hear it's thoughts now...... "Gee, I have absolutely no clue what makes that thing go...(though I'm almost certain it's not nuculer-powered )......and it's closin-in reeeeeaal quick-like....I think I'll MOVE!!" The near-human creature would, if at all possible, avoid being hit. How truly dumb. Any animal would avoid being hit. A fly avoids being hit. Gee, Sweaty, since Bigfoot apparently dart out in front of cars and logging trucks, they can't be too smart, can they? How dumb is this Bigfoot?: Teenagers see animal lying in the middle of the road near Schoal Creek. BTW, Sweaty, what was that about little mak's keen powers of observations?: Originally Posted by makaya325 When i first say the memorial day footage, i couldnt stop shaking my head. Its clearly a hoax, and the costume was found.
	__________________ Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

21st February 2009, 10:08 PM	#129
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,204	Quote: Where is all the Bigfoot road kill? Silly question. Everyone knows the aliens have beamed them all up - sheesh!
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher The Times They Are A-Changin'

21st February 2009, 10:09 PM	#130
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,756	BFRO sighting reports plotted via google Earth:
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

21st February 2009, 10:13 PM	#131
kitakaze Resident DJ/NSA Supermole Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada Posts: 9,461	Originally Posted by makaya325 snipped to remove hack-job quoting by little mak Makaya, please answer post #77 properly and the questions as they have been specified. Are you afraid of being honest? So far you failed the test miserably. Also mentioning unreported sightings has absolutely nothing to do with the argument you made of over 50% of sightings occurring in the PNW and the source you cited. Are you an intellectual coward?
	__________________ Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 Last edited by kitakaze; 21st February 2009 at 10:14 PM.

21st February 2009, 10:24 PM	#132
kitakaze Resident DJ/NSA Supermole Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada Posts: 9,461	Originally Posted by makaya325 So you shouldnt even bother considering whether it exists.. Dont bother me with facts, my minds already made up-kitz Your facts? Let's see... Over 50% of sightings are in the PNW, very few sightings deal with roadside encounters, the MDF is a costume which has been found... those kind of facts? Your "facts" have the funny habit of looking like something that fell out of your butt.
	__________________ Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

21st February 2009, 10:30 PM	#133
kitakaze Resident DJ/NSA Supermole Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada Posts: 9,461	Originally Posted by makaya325 MOST reports arent near roads at all. Crap footer claim. Evidence, please.
	__________________ Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

21st February 2009, 10:31 PM	#134
kitakaze Resident DJ/NSA Supermole Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada Posts: 9,461	Originally Posted by makaya325 Reports GENERALLY occur in REMOTE areas. Crap footer claim. Evidence, please.
	__________________ Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

21st February 2009, 10:33 PM	#135
kitakaze Resident DJ/NSA Supermole Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada Posts: 9,461	Originally Posted by LTC8K6 BFRO sighting reports plotted via google Earth: http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...0ebf14ff4f.jpg http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...0ec014a940.jpg Excellent.
	__________________ Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

22nd February 2009, 02:03 AM	#136
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,179	Quote: If Bigfoot exists....it would be intelligent enough to know that 'big things headed straight for it, would....most likely....hurt a lot upon impact. As opposed to humans, who are either too dumb to realize this, or want to be run down? Give me a break. Intelligence has never been an issue.

22nd February 2009, 07:01 AM	#137
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Amazing how many points on that Google Earth layer are on roads or in populated areas... LOL.
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22nd February 2009, 07:15 AM	#138
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	HAHA! There is one 13 miles from my house out near Hampshire. On a tiny creek about a half mile from a road and in an area (as all areas here would be) closely bounded by roads. Illinois is a gridwork of roads of various importance that run alone ancient farm property lines. This one was near Rt 72 and not far from people's houses at all. Yeah, that bigboot never had to cross any roads. LOL.
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22nd February 2009, 08:15 AM	#139
desertgal Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Virginia City Posts: 3,327	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus Silly question. Everyone knows the aliens have beamed them all up - sheesh! No, no. Haven't you heard? There is no Bigfoot road kill because they survive death. And then they get beamed up.

22nd February 2009, 10:18 PM	#140
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,756	Re-hosted... BFRO sighting reports plotted via google Earth: http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...efb7cc8b6g.jpg http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...2fa4a2ba6g.jpg
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22nd February 2009, 10:46 PM	#141
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,173	Frankly, I don't see the value of talking about the absence of evidence (even the sort of evidence that is reasonably expected). I'd rather evaluate the evidence for the existence of Bigfoot. If it's not sufficient to the astounding claim that a previously unknown large primate inhabits North America, then I provisionally reject the claim. I'll reconsider when a peer-reviewed mainstream journal has accepted the discovery of a new species of large primate in North America.
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22nd February 2009, 11:22 PM	#142
manofthesea 2wu4u Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,356	I guess for a reasonable comparison maybe some sharp internet p.i. could post stats and links of gorilla, orangutan, and chimpanzee roadkill occuring in their native habitats. That's assuming they're apes and not neanderthals.
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23rd February 2009, 05:59 AM	#143
EHocking Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,419	Originally Posted by manofthesea I guess for a reasonable comparison maybe some sharp internet p.i. could post stats and links of gorilla, orangutan, and chimpanzee roadkill occuring in their native habitats. That's assuming they're apes and not neanderthals. Here's some crazy gorilla vs bf roadkill stats: Republic of Congo Human Population: 3.9M Gorilla Population: 125,000 Land Area: 341,000km² Airports : 5 paved Roads: 17,289km Ontario Human Population: 11.4M Bigfoot Sightings: 62 Land Area: 917,741km² Airports : 41 paved Roads: 191,000km OK, so the human population density is similar: RoC / Ontario 11.42 / 12.42 close enough to 1:1 But the number of "animals isn't RoC / Ontario 0.37 / 0.000068 or 5440:1 odd ratio of roads / km²? RoC / Ontario 0.05 / 0.21 or 1:4 ratio of paved roads / km²? RoC / Ontario 0.005 / 0.13 or 1:26 passenger cars per 1000 people RoC / Ontario 16.4 / 1220 or 1:74 So in Ontario, you have a similar human population density to the RoC. With 74 times as many passenger cars 4 times as many roads, it seems you have nearly 300 times more chance of seeing a BF by the side of the road in Ontario than you do of seeing a gorilla by the side of the road in Congo. On paved roads only, you are nearly 2000 times more likely to see a BF than a gorilla in similar circumstances. Yet, we can confidently estimate (having seen, photographed, studied up close and found/dissected bodies) that the Congo gorilla population is in the realm of 125,000 and there is not ONE BF has been confirmed anywhere.
EHocking Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,419	__________________ "A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite Forum Birdwatching Webpage

23rd February 2009, 07:29 AM	#144
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler Frankly, I don't see the value of talking about the absence of evidence (even the sort of evidence that is reasonably expected). I'd rather evaluate the evidence for the existence of Bigfoot. If it's not sufficient to the astounding claim that a previously unknown large primate inhabits North America, then I provisionally reject the claim. I'll reconsider when a peer-reviewed mainstream journal has accepted the discovery of a new species of large primate in North America. In this case it is not an absence of evidence! The lack of road kill is positive evidence that either the beasts do not exist or that their numbers are vanishingly small. We exclude the latter case by reproductive reality - a population of a handful of individuals is functionally extinct, and over the course of the time when you might have expected road or rail kill would have become zero. Which makes the Bigfoot one of those phenomena like UFOs or Spring Heel Jack; Lots of people report it. The honest ones were misidentifying something mundane, the rest are, charitably, deluded.
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23rd February 2009, 08:04 AM	#145
Drewbot Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,874	For bigfoot to avoid being found as roadkill, because his 'kin' come and clean him up, what if the kin got whacked too, and his kin after him? I mean eventually the low population of bigfeet would work against them, and they'd run out of corpse cleaner-uppers. How many times have you seen 10 or 12 Raccoons dead, because they were travelling together across the road? And they aren't even trying to clean up a dead sibling, they are just crossing the road.
Drewbot Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,874	__________________ "I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic

23rd February 2009, 08:21 AM	#146
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,923	Has no one considered the 'fact' that bigfoot is actually trans-dimensional and phase shifts before it gets hit by a car? I thought not. Shame on all of you. Seriously though, another animal that is an interesting comparison is the big horn sheep. Wiki has their population at around 19K in the U.S. As recently as the early 90's that number was in the thousands. Their territory is almost the entire SW. Big horn sheep are very shy and reclusive animals that stay far away from people and predators. Every big horn sheep territory I have ever been to prohibits dogs and has a lot of rules for conduct as these creatures are very sensitive to intruders and are easily upset. Big horn sheep prefer remote high altitude mountain cliffs and valleys to live in. There are very few roads or railroads in their territories due to the intrusion that would cause. I have been lucky enough to see them on several occasions in various parts of Arizona. Our population is in the low thousands and I have only ever seen them from a distance. Their is no chance of sneaking up on one. Despite all of this there are photos, videos, live and dead specimens, and guess what.... road kill. http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/publications...horn_Sheep.pdf Bottom of page 40.
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,923	__________________ “... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

24th February 2009, 06:30 AM	#147
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	Originally Posted by Biscuit Has no one considered the 'fact' that bigfoot is actually trans-dimensional and phase shifts before it gets hit by a car?... Actually, they ARE extinct, having all died in Noah's flood along with the dinosaurs and unicorns and these reports are their ghosts.
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24th February 2009, 10:59 AM	#148
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,173	Originally Posted by BenBurch In this case it is not an absence of evidence! The lack of road kill is positive evidence that either the beasts do not exist or that their numbers are vanishingly small. No, it's actually an absence of evidence. There is no drawer at the Smithsonian with the label "Lack of Bigfoot Roadkill". Granted, in this case the absence of evidence is significant. The fact is, it's up to Bigfoot claimants to make their case, and they've failed. Period. My ex wife is a botanist, and for her to publish an article entitled "A new species of x" (where x is some taxon--usually a family), no peer review process would turn it down because years or centuries of the "lack" of anything. They just check to see that she's collected and made a herbarium specimen or examined existing herbarium specimens and that she's done a good job of the systematics (making the case that her sample isn't a known species).
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24th February 2009, 11:14 AM	#149
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,500	No, when you have a properly constrained definition, a negative result is evidence. Suppose I have a hypothesis about some physical law, and from that I predict that some action one can perform experimentally will fail to produce a result you otherwise would see if the hypothesis were false. And then I perform that experiment and my results are consistent with the hypothesis, I can say I have supported that hypothesis with negative evidence. In this case we predict that any large creature that is seen literally all over the country will be detectable in road kill if it exists. We have great surveillance of the roads, with peace officers passing down each one frequently, and insurance paperwork to document any roadkill with large creatures. And we observe no such road kill in spite of hundreds of examples of really rare creatures being observed as road kill, then we can state said large creature either does not exist or exists in absolutely vanishing numbers.
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24th February 2009, 11:53 AM	#150
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,892	I tend to agree with Joe here. It is very significant that there are no road kill and should be reflected into any actual study or evidence on bigfoot. But it ain#t evidence of bigfoot not existing. But the point is moot anyway as there is not the slightiest evidence of bigfoot exsitence whatsoever.
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24th February 2009, 05:17 PM	#151
Correa Neto Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hunting rocks somewhere in Brazil Posts: 7,235	Oh boy, sweaty is going to add your last sentence to his collection of misquotes...
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24th February 2009, 05:30 PM	#152
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	What if, when you kill a big-foot by car, you automaticly become a bigfoot? And then you're just another missing person to the folks you leave behind. (I haven't figured out what happens to the car yet.)
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

24th February 2009, 05:41 PM	#153
GT/CS Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,630	Originally Posted by quarky What if, when you kill a big-foot by car, you automaticly become a bigfoot? And then you're just another missing person to the folks you leave behind. (I haven't figured out what happens to the car yet.) The alien overlords beam it up.
GT/CS Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,630	__________________ SweatyYeti or Bill Munns would be my vote for looking at this - BFSleuth @ BFF I've got plenty of common sense! I just choose to ignore it. - Calvin; October 15, 1986

24th February 2009, 06:22 PM	#154
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	If a bear can ride a unicycle, a bigfoot can drive a car.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

24th February 2009, 07:48 PM	#155
xblade Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 462	Originally Posted by quarky What if, when you kill a big-foot by car, you automaticly become a bigfoot? And then you're just another missing person to the folks you leave behind. (I haven't figured out what happens to the car yet.) The new bigfoot summons several other bigfoots, and they proceed to eat the dead bigfoot AND the car.