Gravestone moves by itself.

egslim · 19th February 2009, 02:55 AM

Wasn't sure where to post this, but here's the story (in Dutch):

Four times at the cemetery in Aalsum a gravestone was found lying next to the grave. The police installed videocameras to see who was responsible, but the images showed the stone moved by itself - a little less than a meter, within a few seconds.

Out of privacy considerations the images haven't been released, unfortunately. But according to the police's spokeswoman you can see the stone gliding, not being lifted. Also, the stone ended up lying at another side of the grave every time.

Since we can safely discard any paranormal explanation for obvious reasons, and since any natural phenomenon seems unlikely, my question is how this could be conjured? I know magician's secrets aren't to be disclosed here, but this isn't from an entertainment performance.

Shrike · 19th February 2009, 07:17 AM

The church/grave yard now says it is natural.
Heating by the sun, apparently. Well, cold night temperatures and a relatively warm sun.
Linkie (also in Dutch of course): http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/p...friesland.html.

egslim · 19th February 2009, 09:09 AM

I find that rather unlikely.

Natural thermal expansion produces only very slow and minor movement. If the stone's balance was very poor, then such a minor displacement may have been enough to cause the stone to fall off .

But the grave is level, and assuming the stone was centered, it would have been well balanced. Then for it to fall off requires much greater displacement than a single case of thermal expansion could possibly account for.

At most thermal expansion could have caused the stone to move a few mm each day. But that would have caused the stone to become noticebly uncentered, long before it actually fell off.

Moreover, the stone fell off 5 times during the past two months. That's once per 12 days. Assuming a grave is 90cm wide and the stone has its center of gravity in the center, that's 3 cm/day movement on average. Seems far too much for thermal movement to account for.

I still suspect trickery is involved.

scriewy · 20th February 2009, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by egslim

Since we can safely discard any paranormal explanation for obvious reasons.

what are the obvious reasons ? did i miss smething ?

egslim · 20th February 2009, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by scriewy

did i miss smething ?

No, unfortunately you found it - the thread, that is.

The subject is how a gravestone could be moved by trickery, in front of police cameras. Let's stick to the topic.

scriewy · 21st February 2009, 08:15 AM

well ok, will try the physically possible way.
1: invisible threads are out, no 1 passed by to tie them
2: some 1 has an underground tunnel which leads to a doorway underneath the grave.
3: some 1 comes to graves proximity with a vibrational device, but he wont control which way the cover will slide.
4: a piece of metal was built into the cover with the idea in mind to move it with electromagnet in future.
5: some 1 uses a sonic device in proximity to vibrate the cover.
6: army of nanobots move it, but that's way expansive for this trick.
7: some 1 could shoot something that flew fast anough for cams not to pick with invisible thread or fishline attached to it from 1 side to another and in the right place to grab the cover, pull the thread from 2 sides and drag the cover down.
i dont know any magic tricks (i mean at all, not specifically for this task), so thats all i got from rational explanation.

Bristow42 · 23rd February 2009, 04:20 AM

I have not all the facts. Soil reacts to temperature when water is added to the equasion, and type of soil. A spring or trapped water under the grave can expand and contract due to temperature changes, moving soils. I have seen first hand how soils react to under ground water due to tides. Light poles and sign posts moving up and down, and moving in a circular movement in a 12 hour period. Concrete foot paths rising and lowing with not cracks visible once the tide had reseeded.
You will find water is involved either freezing at night expanding clay or soil under the tombstone. pushing it up. Thus on the video appearing to be rising out of the ground. If you notice the trees in the back ground of the photo, it is winter or Autum and the man wearing a leather jacket.

666 · 23rd February 2009, 06:46 AM

Here's a version of the story in English. Scroll halfway down page 1 and see the continuation on page 2.

Quote:

The most remarkable story in today’s newspapers concerns a 450-kilogramme gravestone in a small village in Frisia which has been sliding off a grave all on its own.

sophia8 · 23rd February 2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

“After the fourth time we decided to place a camera (at the site). When the stone moved for a fifth time we looked at the images.” The paper continues: “And what they saw still gives police spokeswoman Anne van der Meer the shakes. ‘It was unbelievable. I was stunned. You see the stone sliding off. It nearly falls off. Eventually it hits another stone. And then the slab can’t move any further … How is it possible? 450 kilogrammes? And it happens really fast, a question of seconds… It shoots away. I have never experienced something like this during my police career and I don’t have an explanation.”

Oh dear. "a question of seconds"? "it nearly falls off"? "it shoots away"? That hardly sounds like an investigator talking; I thought police officers were trained in observation..
Exactly how heavy is the stone? How far was it observed to move, and at what speed? Which direction does it move in? Does it remain upright or does it tilt at any point? These are the sort of things I would expect to be covered in a description of the video.
And their excuse for not publicly releasing the video sounds pretty pathetic. If the family's privacy is so important, just get a video-editing expert to obscure the inscription.

Ragnarok · 23rd February 2009, 05:58 PM

I'm going with the stonemason's guess of a giant invisible muskrat.

What else could it be?

RobertlewisIR · 24th February 2009, 12:52 AM

The only ways I could think to conjure it would require substantial set-up beforehand. I'd be inclined to look for a natural explanation first.

19th February 2009, 02:55 AM	#1
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,332	Gravestone moves by itself. Wasn't sure where to post this, but here's the story (in Dutch): Four times at the cemetery in Aalsum a gravestone was found lying next to the grave. The police installed videocameras to see who was responsible, but the images showed the stone moved by itself - a little less than a meter, within a few seconds. Out of privacy considerations the images haven't been released, unfortunately. But according to the police's spokeswoman you can see the stone gliding, not being lifted. Also, the stone ended up lying at another side of the grave every time. Since we can safely discard any paranormal explanation for obvious reasons, and since any natural phenomenon seems unlikely, my question is how this could be conjured? I know magician's secrets aren't to be disclosed here, but this isn't from an entertainment performance.
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,332

19th February 2009, 07:17 AM	#2
Shrike Warning: May Contain Nuts Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Waddinxveen Posts: 1,153	The church/grave yard now says it is natural. Heating by the sun, apparently. Well, cold night temperatures and a relatively warm sun. Linkie (also in Dutch of course): http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/p...friesland.html.
	__________________ It's getting harder and harder to believe in people, let alone gods - Terry Pratchett. http://www.olyslagertranslations.nl

19th February 2009, 09:09 AM	#3
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,332	I find that rather unlikely. Natural thermal expansion produces only very slow and minor movement. If the stone's balance was very poor, then such a minor displacement may have been enough to cause the stone to fall off . But the grave is level, and assuming the stone was centered, it would have been well balanced. Then for it to fall off requires much greater displacement than a single case of thermal expansion could possibly account for. At most thermal expansion could have caused the stone to move a few mm each day. But that would have caused the stone to become noticebly uncentered, long before it actually fell off. Moreover, the stone fell off 5 times during the past two months. That's once per 12 days. Assuming a grave is 90cm wide and the stone has its center of gravity in the center, that's 3 cm/day movement on average. Seems far too much for thermal movement to account for. I still suspect trickery is involved.
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,332	Last edited by egslim; 19th February 2009 at 09:41 AM.

20th February 2009, 02:19 AM	#4
scriewy New Blood Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 9	Originally Posted by egslim Since we can safely discard any paranormal explanation for obvious reasons. what are the obvious reasons ? did i miss smething ?
scriewy New Blood Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 9

20th February 2009, 02:57 AM	#5
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,332	Originally Posted by scriewy did i miss smething ? No, unfortunately you found it - the thread, that is. The subject is how a gravestone could be moved by trickery, in front of police cameras. Let's stick to the topic.
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,332

21st February 2009, 08:15 AM	#6
scriewy New Blood Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 9	well ok, will try the physically possible way. 1: invisible threads are out, no 1 passed by to tie them 2: some 1 has an underground tunnel which leads to a doorway underneath the grave. 3: some 1 comes to graves proximity with a vibrational device, but he wont control which way the cover will slide. 4: a piece of metal was built into the cover with the idea in mind to move it with electromagnet in future. 5: some 1 uses a sonic device in proximity to vibrate the cover. 6: army of nanobots move it, but that's way expansive for this trick. 7: some 1 could shoot something that flew fast anough for cams not to pick with invisible thread or fishline attached to it from 1 side to another and in the right place to grab the cover, pull the thread from 2 sides and drag the cover down. i dont know any magic tricks (i mean at all, not specifically for this task), so thats all i got from rational explanation.
scriewy New Blood Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 9

23rd February 2009, 04:20 AM	#7
Bristow42 Student Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 48	I have not all the facts. Soil reacts to temperature when water is added to the equasion, and type of soil. A spring or trapped water under the grave can expand and contract due to temperature changes, moving soils. I have seen first hand how soils react to under ground water due to tides. Light poles and sign posts moving up and down, and moving in a circular movement in a 12 hour period. Concrete foot paths rising and lowing with not cracks visible once the tide had reseeded. You will find water is involved either freezing at night expanding clay or soil under the tombstone. pushing it up. Thus on the video appearing to be rising out of the ground. If you notice the trees in the back ground of the photo, it is winter or Autum and the man wearing a leather jacket.
	Last edited by Bristow42; 23rd February 2009 at 05:11 AM.

23rd February 2009, 06:46 AM	#8
666 Whingeing Pom Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: East of Kernow. Posts: 982	Here's a version of the story in English. Scroll halfway down page 1 and see the continuation on page 2. Quote: The most remarkable story in today’s newspapers concerns a 450-kilogramme gravestone in a small village in Frisia which has been sliding off a grave all on its own.
	__________________

23rd February 2009, 10:08 AM	#9
sophia8 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Scottishland Posts: 1,679	Quote: “After the fourth time we decided to place a camera (at the site). When the stone moved for a fifth time we looked at the images.” The paper continues: “And what they saw still gives police spokeswoman Anne van der Meer the shakes. ‘It was unbelievable. I was stunned. You see the stone sliding off. It nearly falls off. Eventually it hits another stone. And then the slab can’t move any further … How is it possible? 450 kilogrammes? And it happens really fast, a question of seconds… It shoots away. I have never experienced something like this during my police career and I don’t have an explanation.” Oh dear. "a question of seconds"? "it nearly falls off"? "it shoots away"? That hardly sounds like an investigator talking; I thought police officers were trained in observation.. Exactly how heavy is the stone? How far was it observed to move, and at what speed? Which direction does it move in? Does it remain upright or does it tilt at any point? These are the sort of things I would expect to be covered in a description of the video. And their excuse for not publicly releasing the video sounds pretty pathetic. If the family's privacy is so important, just get a video-editing expert to obscure the inscription.
	__________________ "The fact that time will continue after we die does not negate the time that we were alive. We are alive now, and nothing can erase that." - Greta Christina "You will find me if you want me in the garden. Unless it's pouring down with rain" - Einsturzende Neubauten

23rd February 2009, 05:58 PM	#10
Ragnarok Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 492	I'm going with the stonemason's guess of a giant invisible muskrat. What else could it be?
Ragnarok Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 492

24th February 2009, 12:52 AM	#11
RobertlewisIR New Blood Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 20	The only ways I could think to conjure it would require substantial set-up beforehand. I'd be inclined to look for a natural explanation first.
RobertlewisIR New Blood Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 20