Obama admin defends *another* Bush admin change: guns in nat'l parks

FlamingMoe · 20th February 2009, 11:05 PM

Quote:

The Obama administration is legally defending a last-minute rule enacted by President George W. Bush that allows concealed firearms in national parks, even as it is internally reviewing whether the measure meets environmental muster.

In a response Friday to a lawsuit by gun-control and environmental groups, the Justice Department sought to block a preliminary injunction of the controversial rule. The regulation, which took effect Jan. 9, allows visitors to bring concealed, loaded guns into national parks and wildlife refuges; for more than two decades they were allowed in such areas only if they were unloaded or stored and dismantled.

This is a stunning development. The part I don't get is the environmental review part. How can you conduct a study of the environmental effect of something that has no effect on the environment? Allowing concealed carry in the parks has as much effect on the environment as allowing purple shirts.

KoihimeNakamura · 20th February 2009, 11:51 PM

Hunting concerns, probably.

FlamingMoe · 21st February 2009, 12:42 AM

Anyone who is going to hunt in a national park where hunting is already illegal won't be stopped by another law saying you can't have your guns.

Ergo, there is still no environmental impact.

KoihimeNakamura · 21st February 2009, 12:47 AM

You're using common sense logic to figure out why a bureaucracy works. This doesn't always work.

FlamingMoe · 21st February 2009, 12:54 AM

I work for the feds. I should have considered your point.

Texas · 21st February 2009, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by FlamingMoe

I work for the feds. I should have considered your point.

It's all the lead clean up

gumboot · 21st February 2009, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by FlamingMoe

Anyone who is going to hunt in a national park where hunting is already illegal won't be stopped by another law saying you can't have your guns.

This is true, but if it's illegal to have guns at all Federal officers can arrest and successfully prosecute you simply for having a gun, and don't need to prove you were there to hunt, which could be quite difficult unless you were caught hauling a grizzly (or whatever it is they hunt) out of the park.

Using minor mundane offenses to shut down criminals who are too clever to leave evidence of more serious crimes is quite common.

WildCat · 21st February 2009, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

This is true, but if it's illegal to have guns at all Federal officers can arrest and successfully prosecute you simply for having a gun, and don't need to prove you were there to hunt, which could be quite difficult unless you were caught hauling a grizzly (or whatever it is they hunt) out of the park.

Using minor mundane offenses to shut down criminals who are too clever to leave evidence of more serious crimes is quite common.

Since it's difficult to conceal any gun except for a handgun I don't think this is a hunting issue.

Granted, some people do hunt with handguns (many states have handgun hunting seasons for deer for example) but if you're a poacher a handgun would be a bizarre choice.

And frankly, if I was carrying a handgun as a last-ditch defense against a bear attack I'd want nothing less than a .44 magnum, which are rather large and more difficult to conceal (particularly in warm months), though certainly possible.

So IMHO this seems aimed at self-defense against people, not animals.

dudalb · 21st February 2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

And frankly, if I was carrying a handgun as a last-ditch defense against a bear attack I'd want nothing less than a .44 magnum, which are rather large and more difficult to conceal (particularly in warm months), though certainly possible.

Are you feeling lucky today, Yogi?

Tsukasa Buddha · 21st February 2009, 01:02 PM

See? Obama is the most Liberal president evar.

Tricky · 21st February 2009, 04:45 PM

Reconsidering my post. I need to research more.

BPSCG · 21st February 2009, 07:22 PM

If I see a man in a national park with a gun, I'll kill him.

FlamingMoe · 21st February 2009, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

If I see a man in a national park with a gun, I'll kill him.

Uhh, park rangers?

peptoabysmal · 21st February 2009, 08:14 PM

It appears to be about removing a double standard. IF you have a permit for concealed weapon, why should it be any different in the city or in a national park?

Rangers aren't worried about poaching, they are worried that someone with a concealed weapon might overreact and shoot a bear or something out of fear.

http://www.ajc.com/services/content/...2/06/guns.html

KingMerv00 · 22nd February 2009, 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by FlamingMoe

Uhh, park rangers?

Looks like you are new here so there is no reason you should know but BPSCG is parodying another poster.

KoihimeNakamura · 22nd February 2009, 05:29 AM

Yeah. Personally, I'm fine with the notion of letting people with CCW having.. their guns on parks and such.

BPSCG · 22nd February 2009, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Rika

Yeah. Personally, I'm fine with the notion of letting people with CCW having.. their guns on parks and such.

CCW laws are state laws - I don't believe they apply on federal property. Anyone who disagrees should test his hypothesis by trying to go into the U.S. Capitol with a concealed weapon.

Set up a PayPal account so we can bail you out afterwards.

BPSCG · 22nd February 2009, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

If I see a man in a national park with a gun, I'll kill him.

Originally Posted by FlamingMoe

Uhh, park rangers?

Here ya go, Moe. Enjoy.

KoihimeNakamura · 23rd February 2009, 03:52 AM

Aren't there federal equivalants to CCW?

Springfork · 23rd February 2009, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Rika

Aren't there federal equivalants to CCW?

Not for civilians. If Illinois and Wisconsin (the last two holdouts) would pass concealed carry, there wouldn't be any need for a federal CCW.

Beerina · 23rd February 2009, 09:31 AM

Apparently you're all still living in the mental model of reality that memes teach you to get you to behave in a manner that, out in actual reality, causes the spread of the memes.

Eight million little plank issues, before the election, are to help the meme get elected, which is as close to a reproduction win it gets, and helps massively to spread it to more people, hence its value.

You were expecting something else, young grasshoppers? You are blinded by the wool pulled over your eyes.

Beerina: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, grasshoppers?

Randiites: No.

Beerina: Why not?

Randiites: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

Beerina: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain. But you feel it. You've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is but it's there, like a splinter in your mind driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Randiites: The Meme?

Beerina: Do you want to know what IT is? The Meme is everywhere. It is all around us, even now in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

Randiites: What truth?

Beerina: That you are a slave, grasshoppers. Like everyone else you were born into bondage, born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. A prison for your mind.... Unfortunately, no one can be told what The Meme is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back.

You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe about how nuts I am, and how your mental model of reality is an accurate description, and how planks and political positions are to band people together to win elections for the good of The People, with no ulterior motives aside from simple conspiracy and greed.

You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes....

Remember, all I'm offering is the truth, nothing more...

It'll be ok. I promise.

roger · 23rd February 2009, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by FlamingMoe

Uhh, park rangers?

There's no time. Stick to the scenerio.

20th February 2009, 11:05 PM	#1
FlamingMoe Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Your mom's house. Posts: 853	*Obama admin defends another* Bush admin change: guns in nat'l parks** Justice Dept. Defends Bush Rule on Guns Quote: The Obama administration is legally defending a last-minute rule enacted by President George W. Bush that allows concealed firearms in national parks, even as it is internally reviewing whether the measure meets environmental muster. In a response Friday to a lawsuit by gun-control and environmental groups, the Justice Department sought to block a preliminary injunction of the controversial rule. The regulation, which took effect Jan. 9, allows visitors to bring concealed, loaded guns into national parks and wildlife refuges; for more than two decades they were allowed in such areas only if they were unloaded or stored and dismantled. This is a stunning development. The part I don't get is the environmental review part. How can you conduct a study of the environmental effect of something that has no effect on the environment? Allowing concealed carry in the parks has as much effect on the environment as allowing purple shirts.

20th February 2009, 11:51 PM	#2
KoihimeNakamura Creativity Murderer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Graham, WA Posts: 6,846	Hunting concerns, probably.
	__________________ Don't mind me.

21st February 2009, 12:47 AM	#4
KoihimeNakamura Creativity Murderer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Graham, WA Posts: 6,846	You're using common sense logic to figure out why a bureaucracy works. This doesn't always work.
	__________________ Don't mind me.

21st February 2009, 01:03 AM	#6
Texas Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,847	Originally Posted by FlamingMoe I work for the feds. I should have considered your point. It's all the lead clean up
Texas Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,847

21st February 2009, 05:11 AM	#7
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,103	Originally Posted by FlamingMoe Anyone who is going to hunt in a national park where hunting is already illegal won't be stopped by another law saying you can't have your guns. This is true, but if it's illegal to have guns at all Federal officers can arrest and successfully prosecute you simply for having a gun, and don't need to prove you were there to hunt, which could be quite difficult unless you were caught hauling a grizzly (or whatever it is they hunt) out of the park. Using minor mundane offenses to shut down criminals who are too clever to leave evidence of more serious crimes is quite common.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

21st February 2009, 12:42 AM	#3
FlamingMoe Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Your mom's house. Posts: 853	Anyone who is going to hunt in a national park where hunting is already illegal won't be stopped by another law saying you can't have your guns. Ergo, there is still no environmental impact.

21st February 2009, 12:54 AM	#5
FlamingMoe Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Your mom's house. Posts: 853	I work for the feds. I should have considered your point.

21st February 2009, 08:23 AM	#8
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,978	Originally Posted by gumboot This is true, but if it's illegal to have guns at all Federal officers can arrest and successfully prosecute you simply for having a gun, and don't need to prove you were there to hunt, which could be quite difficult unless you were caught hauling a grizzly (or whatever it is they hunt) out of the park. Using minor mundane offenses to shut down criminals who are too clever to leave evidence of more serious crimes is quite common. Since it's difficult to conceal any gun except for a handgun I don't think this is a hunting issue. Granted, some people do hunt with handguns (many states have handgun hunting seasons for deer for example) but if you're a poacher a handgun would be a bizarre choice. And frankly, if I was carrying a handgun as a last-ditch defense against a bear attack I'd want nothing less than a .44 magnum, which are rather large and more difficult to conceal (particularly in warm months), though certainly possible. So IMHO this seems aimed at self-defense against people, not animals.

21st February 2009, 12:57 PM	#9
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,782	Quote: And frankly, if I was carrying a handgun as a last-ditch defense against a bear attack I'd want nothing less than a .44 magnum, which are rather large and more difficult to conceal (particularly in warm months), though certainly possible. Are you feeling lucky today, Yogi?

21st February 2009, 01:02 PM	#10
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,879	See? Obama is the most Liberal president evar.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

21st February 2009, 04:45 PM	#11
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,338	Reconsidering my post. I need to research more.
	Last edited by Tricky; 21st February 2009 at 04:46 PM.

21st February 2009, 07:22 PM	#12
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	If I see a man in a national park with a gun, I'll kill him.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

21st February 2009, 07:59 PM	#13
FlamingMoe Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Your mom's house. Posts: 853	Originally Posted by BPSCG If I see a man in a national park with a gun, I'll kill him. Uhh, park rangers?

21st February 2009, 08:14 PM	#14
peptoabysmal Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,467	It appears to be about removing a double standard. IF you have a permit for concealed weapon, why should it be any different in the city or in a national park? Rangers aren't worried about poaching, they are worried that someone with a concealed weapon might overreact and shoot a bear or something out of fear. http://www.ajc.com/services/content/...2/06/guns.html
	__________________ OBAMA: It's not that I want to punish your success; I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you that they've got a chance to success, too. I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody.

22nd February 2009, 03:05 AM	#15
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by FlamingMoe Uhh, park rangers? Looks like you are new here so there is no reason you should know but BPSCG is parodying another poster.
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

22nd February 2009, 05:29 AM	#16
KoihimeNakamura Creativity Murderer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Graham, WA Posts: 6,846	Yeah. Personally, I'm fine with the notion of letting people with CCW having.. their guns on parks and such.
	__________________ Don't mind me.

22nd February 2009, 06:37 AM	#17
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by Rika Yeah. Personally, I'm fine with the notion of letting people with CCW having.. their guns on parks and such. CCW laws are state laws - I don't believe they apply on federal property. Anyone who disagrees should test his hypothesis by trying to go into the U.S. Capitol with a concealed weapon. Set up a PayPal account so we can bail you out afterwards.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

22nd February 2009, 06:47 AM	#18
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by BPSCG If I see a man in a national park with a gun, I'll kill him. Originally Posted by FlamingMoe Uhh, park rangers? Here ya go, Moe. Enjoy.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

23rd February 2009, 03:52 AM	#19
KoihimeNakamura Creativity Murderer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Graham, WA Posts: 6,846	Aren't there federal equivalants to CCW?
	__________________ Don't mind me.

23rd February 2009, 07:49 AM	#20
Springfork Scholar Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 68	Originally Posted by Rika Aren't there federal equivalants to CCW? Not for civilians. If Illinois and Wisconsin (the last two holdouts) would pass concealed carry, there wouldn't be any need for a federal CCW.
Springfork Scholar Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 68

23rd February 2009, 09:31 AM	#21
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Apparently you're all still living in the mental model of reality that memes teach you to get you to behave in a manner that, out in actual reality, causes the spread of the memes. Eight million little plank issues, before the election, are to help the meme get elected, which is as close to a reproduction win it gets, and helps massively to spread it to more people, hence its value. You were expecting something else, young grasshoppers? You are blinded by the wool pulled over your eyes. Beerina: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, grasshoppers? Randiites: No. Beerina: Why not? Randiites: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life. Beerina: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain. But you feel it. You've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is but it's there, like a splinter in your mind driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about? Randiites: The Meme? Beerina: Do you want to know what IT is? The Meme is everywhere. It is all around us, even now in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, *when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth. Randiites: What truth? Beerina: That you are a slave, grasshoppers. Like everyone else you were born into bondage, born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. A prison for your mind.... Unfortunately, no one can be told what The Meme* is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe about how nuts I am, and how your mental model of reality is an accurate description, and how planks and political positions are to band people together to win elections for the good of The People, with no ulterior motives aside from simple conspiracy and greed. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.... Remember, all I'm offering is the truth, nothing more... It'll be ok. I promise.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

23rd February 2009, 09:37 AM	#22
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	Originally Posted by FlamingMoe Uhh, park rangers? There's no time. Stick to the scenerio.
	__________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir