Stossel Solves the Health Crisis with Capitalism

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Helllooooooooo JREF!!!! I started this thread with the hope of brainstorming some ideas that might help reduce the cost of health care spending in the U.S. The only catch is that is needs to be reduced without switching to a Universal Health Care system.

This Stossel video has some good ideas to help lower costs, and I was wondering what others here thought of his Capitalist approach to the problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEXFU...%3DaEXFUbSbg1I

Plus, Michael Moore and Stossel have it out and Stossel calls Moore a fatty. Check it out and please leave any thoughts.

[kellyb]

No audio on my pc. Can you give me a synopsis?

[Free Thinkr]

Stossel, lulz.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Originally Posted by kellyb

No audio on my pc. Can you give me a synopsis?

Yes. Basically the programme is advocating a free market system, with patients shopping around for the best quality healthcare they can afford. The several obvious problems associated with this were not mentioned, just relentless inappropriate analogies to buying cars and food and how competition lowers the price of everything being given.

It employed the usual right-wing tactic of inducing fear of a universal system, reinforcing American stereotypes of the Canadian and European systems. This included showing huge queues for dental treatment in the UK and doctors on strike in France and Germany. No doubt the suitably frightened American viewer would be left thinking the problems highlighted happen on a regular basis.

[oggiesnr]

Can someone give me back the time I've just wasted spent watching that rubbish?

The state of US health is an example of imperfect markets and vested interests at work. There is no answer other than UHC or stricter Government controls which are not permitted as answers by the OP.

To steal an ongoing argument from another thread, I'm off for my next bout of taxation funded but free at the point of delivery chemo tomorrow safe in the knowledge that I'm getting good care and I don't have to worry about insurance or bankruptcy.

Be well

Steve

[Toke]

Maybe the problem is that there are not enough different insurance policy options to fit american´s individual needs.

Last I heard there were no more than 50.000 different ones in Michigan. That seems completely insufficient for the number of people there.
Why can´t they get individual options?

[kellyb]

Quote:

Yes. Basically the programme is advocating a free market system, with patients shopping around for the best quality healthcare they can afford.

I'm confused. That's what we are already doing.

[Toke]

Quote:

I'm confused. That's what we are already doing

.

Well, you are obviusly not doing it enough.

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Quote:

It employed the usual right-wing tactic of inducing fear of a universal system, reinforcing American stereotypes of the Canadian and European systems. This included showing huge queues for dental treatment in the UK and doctors on strike in France and Germany. No doubt the suitably frightened American viewer would be left thinking the problems highlighted happen on a regular basis.

Frightened??? You're an easy scare, are ya? Was anything Stossel said a lie?

[Toke]

Quote:

Frightened??? You're an easy scare, are ya? Was anything Stossel said a lie?

My best guess is that he have misrepresented reality, to cover the cold economic facts of how you run healthcare for a whole country.
Without spending too much and without poor or expensively ill people going without care.

I will be back from work in 4 weeks and able to wacht video over the internet. If you are still interrested then I will see it.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Originally Posted by kellyb

I'm confused. That's what we are already doing.

The programme was not meant to educate American viewers, merely frighten them and reaffirm their irrational prejudices.

E.g., "Imagine how people would behave if they had food insurance?" and "The best car socialism ever produced was the Trabant."

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Quote:

My best guess is that he have misrepresented reality, to cover the cold economic facts of how you run healthcare for a whole country.
Without spending too much and without poor or expensively ill people going without care.

I will be back from work in 4 weeks and able to wacht video over the internet. If you are still interrested then I will see it.

I would love for someone to point out what was a misrepresentation.

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Quote:

The programme was not meant to educate American viewers, merely frighten them and reaffirm their irrational prejudices.

There you go again with the whole frightening nonsense. Who the hell gets scared by Stossel? Was anything in the piece not true?

Quote:

E.g., "Imagine how people would behave if they had food insurance?" and "The best car socialism ever produced was the Trabant."

Were those points invalid? Are they lies?

[Toke]

Misrepresentation come in many forms.

Have you heard of the AB that were written in the logbook for showing up drunk for duty.
The next day he wrote in the log "The captain were sober today".

Try look at it again, read post #4 and look for selective reporting and handwaving.

[quixotecoyote]

stanley: Have you considered that you may have adopted capitalism as an ideology?

I just remember you as part of a decent give-and-take in the universal health care thread, where you acknowledged several problems in the existing system and reasons why a universal system could alleviate them, but then I pop over here and see that someone said "capitalist" and it was like a magic word that reverted you fully to your original position.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Originally Posted by DaN K. StAnLeY

Frightened??? You're an easy scare, are ya? Was anything Stossel said a lie?

It was taken out of context.

With respect to the queues for NHS dentists in the UK, this was caused by dentists opting out of the NHS and only taking private patients.

Clearly the people queuing should have just shopped around the large number of private dentists in their area, as Stossel is recommending Americans do for all their medical services.

I wonder if Dick Cheney shopped around for each of his heart bypasses?

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Originally Posted by kellyb

No audio on my pc. Can you give me a synopsis?

It wasn't quite as scary as it was made out to be. Basically Stossel talks to people and throws around some ideas on why things are getting so expensive. He goes over a few ideas to help lower cost of medical care for everyone. The program also shows how Michael Moore makes a ton of dubious claims in Sicko, and Moore and Stossel meet up for a showdown in the middle (resulting in Moore looking foolish as usual).

[Ivor the Engineer]

Originally Posted by DaN K. StAnLeY

<snip>

Were those points invalid? Are they lies?

There were either totally irrelevant to the issue of healthcare (Trabant) or tried to equate two tasks which have very different requirements and problems (shopping for food and shopping for healthcare).

[Toke]

Michael Moore is good at selective reporting. Is Stossel any better?

What ideas?
Free marked is basicly what you got now, and not that succesfull. Does he want more of the same, goverment out of the way?

[kellyb]

Quote:

Quote:

E.g., "Imagine how people would behave if they had food insurance?" and "The best car socialism ever produced was the Trabant."

Were those points invalid? Are they lies?

I don't understand. What actually would happen if people had food insurance? And...the car thing...the British make cars, right??? Explain those two points to me like I'm a 5 year old coz I'm lost.

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Quote:

I just remember you as part of a decent give-and-take in the universal health care thread, where you acknowledged several problems in the existing system and reasons why a universal system could alleviate them, but then I pop over here and see that someone said "capitalist" and it was like a magic word that reverted you fully to your original position.

I may have acknowledged problems. I may have even said UHC could alleviate some of them but I've not said I would like to have a UHC system (I've always loved me some capitalism). If UHC is the ONLY option maybe, but thats what I'm here to explore. I wonder why almost everyone posting believes UHC is the ONLY option. I would really like to stick with the ideas put forward in the video for this thread though. for example, what is true about it, what is false, other ideas that can save mooney without resorting to UHC.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by DaN K. StAnLeY

It wasn't quite as scary as it was made out to be. Basically Stossel talks to people and throws around some ideas on why things are getting so expensive. He goes over a few ideas to help lower cost of medical care for everyone. The program also shows how Michael Moore makes a ton of dubious claims in Sicko, and Moore and Stossel meet up for a showdown in the middle (resulting in Moore looking foolish as usual).

What are his claims on the reason for our inflated costs, and what are his claims about how it can be remedied?

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Quote:

I don't understand. What actually would happen if people had food insurance? And...the car thing...the British make cars, right??? Explain those two points to me like I'm a 5 year old coz I'm lost.

I'm sorry, but you'd have to watch it.

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Originally Posted by Ivor the Engineer

There were either totally irrelevant to the issue of healthcare (Trabant) or tried to equate two tasks which have very different requirements and problems (shopping for food and shopping for healthcare).

So no, and no?

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Quote:

With respect to the queues for NHS dentists in the UK, this was caused by dentists opting out of the NHS and only taking private patients.

Are wait time better now? How long does the average joe need to wait for dental?

Why were these dentist opting out of such a wonderful system?

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Quote:

Misrepresentation come in many forms.

Have you heard of the AB that were written in the logbook for showing up drunk for duty.
The next day he wrote in the log "The captain were sober today".

Try look at it again, read post #4 and look for selective reporting and handwaving.

I'm not even sure what that post means????

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Quote:

Free marked is basicly what you got now

Not quite. He make the difference clear in the show.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by DaN K. StAnLeY

I'm sorry, but you'd have to watch it.

So...you don't understand it, either????

[Free Thinkr]

Originally Posted by DaN K. StAnLeY

So no, and no?

Are you just going to lie now? Or did you want to have a meaningful discussion. You must choose one or the other.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by DaN K. StAnLeY

Not quite. He make the difference clear in the show.

How?

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

KellyB, what was really scary for me was seeing a Canadian man who was having a heart attack waiting for an available bed. It was also pretty scary for the woman on the show who's doctors told here she had to wait months for "elective" surgery that ended up almost killing her. Luckily she made it to the doctors in the US who were able to treat her and BTW said if she would have waited any longer she'd be dead. She wasn't upset at the cost though. She was just fine with being alive.

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Originally Posted by Free Thinkr

Are you just going to lie now? Or did you want to have a meaningful discussion. You must choose one or the other.

How am I lying? I just don't think that the points are "totally irrelevant" like others do.

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Quote:

So...you don't understand it, either????

Yes.......I don't understand it because I don't feel like breaking down every minute for you. Watch it or don't.

[Free Thinkr]

Originally Posted by DaN K. StAnLeY

How am I lying? I just don't think that the points are "totally irrelevant" like others do.

You don't see how there's major differences in the market for cars and healthcare? You don't see how there's major differences in the market for food and healthcare?

If that's the case, this thread is a waste of time. But I don't believe you.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by DaN K. StAnLeY

KellyB, what was really scary for me was seeing a Canadian man who was having a heart attack waiting for an available bed. It was also pretty scary for the woman on the show who's doctors told here she had to wait months for "elective" surgery that ended up almost killing her. Luckily she made it to the doctors in the US who were able to treat her and BTW said if she would have waited any longer she'd be dead. She wasn't upset at the cost though. She was just fine with being alive.

Those things happen here, too. You need to know the relative frequency of such events to form a grounded opinion on UHC vs ours.

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Originally Posted by Free Thinkr

You don't see how there's major differences in the market for cars and healthcare? You don't see how there's major differences in the market for food and healthcare?

If that's the case, this thread is a waste of time. But I don't believe you.

Sure they are different. I don't think they are tottally irrelevant just because you say so. There are plenty of other government run organizations here that perform poorly, would you like a list?

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

So if our healthcare is so bad, why did the people from other countries (famous Italian singer, Jordans pres, etc) choose to come here instead of their current system?

I thought it was funny when Stossel pointed out that Moore basically wanted to turn over HC to a government he hates and has ZERO trust for. His response was "Well, we use to do things right." Then points out WWII, pffft!!!

[Ivor the Engineer]

Originally Posted by DaN K. StAnLeY

Are wait time better now?

Yes.

Quote:

How long does the average joe need to wait for dental?

Once you are on a dentist's list there is no waiting time as such. The queues were to get on an NHS dentist's list.

Have a look at the difference in price between private and NHS dental charges:

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/dentist/n...te-prices.html

Dental work required	Private Prices	NHS Prices *
Apiectomy	£401	£198.0
Braces	£1050	£198.0
Bridge	£562	N/A
Cancellation fee	£39	N/A
Combined Treatments	£366	N/A
Dental Crown	£375	£198.0
Dental Examination	£44	£16.2
Dentures	£448	£198.0
First Consultation	£53	£16.2
Hygiene Clean	£70	N/A
Implants	£1075	N/A
Large tooth filling	£105	£121.3
Root canal	£350	£198.0
Sedated tooth removal	£144	£44.6
Small tooth filling	£78	£44.6
Tooth Extraction	£91	N/A
Tooth Scale and Polish	£47	£16.2
Veneer	£342	N/A
Whitening	£304	N/A
Wisdom tooth extraction	£176	N/A
X-ray	£29	£16.2

Quote:

Why were these dentist opting out of such a wonderful system?

At the time my original dentist opted to do mostly private work it was because he could make twice the money for less work. I.e. Opportunity and greed.

[Toke]

Quote:

So if our healthcare is so bad, why did the people from other countries (famous Italian singer, Jordans pres, etc) choose to come here instead of their current system?

There is general agreement that the us have great healthcare for the people who can afford the best.
But that is not terribly relevant for the population at large. They would be better of with a tax paid system instead of going through an insurance company.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Originally Posted by DaN K. StAnLeY

So if our healthcare is so bad, why did the people from other countries (famous Italian singer, Jordans pres, etc) choose to come here instead of their current system?

<snip>

Because all those people are very wealthy and can afford to access the best healthcare in the world, wherever it may be located.

Are you very wealthy?