Steel failing in hydrocarbon fires. - Page 8

BenBurch · 31st May 2009, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by George152

Just dull red is sufficient to work it though its easier if the steel is cherry red.

Maybe the kooks have never heard of forge welding ?

Likely.

Its a LOT of work to forge things, and so the hotter the better.

There is a reason your traditional blacksmith was muscular.

tsig · 31st May 2009, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Likely.

Its a LOT of work to forge things, and so the hotter the better.

There is a reason your traditional blacksmith was muscular.

"Under a spreading chestnut-tree
The village smithy stands;
The smith, a mighty man is he,
With large and sinewy hands;
And the muscles of his brawny arms
Are strong as iron bands." (HWL)

Yes but could he bend steel in his bare hands?

Therefore: inside job.

BenBurch · 3rd June 2009, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

"Under a spreading chestnut-tree
The village smithy stands;
The smith, a mighty man is he,
With large and sinewy hands;
And the muscles of his brawny arms
Are strong as iron bands." (HWL)

Yes but could he bend steel in his bare hands?

Therefore: inside job.

Only in bad weather. The rest of the time you want to do that outside.

BenBurch · 15th September 2009, 08:24 PM

Hey, truthers! Still putting your fingers in your ears and going "LA! LA! LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" are you?

Architect · 16th September 2009, 12:12 AM

Ahh, yes. I forgot about this thread. And so, of course, did our Truther friends.

BenBurch · 16th September 2009, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Architect

Ahh, yes. I forgot about this thread. And so, of course, did our Truther friends.

They have finely-tuned reality filters.

jaydeehess · 16th September 2009, 11:12 AM

Its likely a case of "sshhhh, if you don't post in the thread it will pass to the second page of threads and be forgotten"

Cherry red, dull orange, or simply hot due to the sun while constricted from expanding, steel behaves badly when heated.

rwguinn · 16th September 2009, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

Its likely a case of "sshhhh, if you don't post in the thread it will pass to the second page of threads and be forgotten"

Cherry red, dull orange, or simply hot due to the sun while constricted from expanding, steel behaves ~~badly~~ predictably when heated.

Fixed that for you. This is an Educational Forum--let's be accurate.

jaydeehess · 17th September 2009, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by rwguinn

Fixed that for you. This is an Educational Forum--let's be accurate.

Ok,thanks.

In my defense, there was no smilie for tongue-in-cheek.

Newtons Bit · 17th September 2009, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

Ok,thanks.

In my defense, there was no smilie for tongue-in-cheek.

Sure there is, it's this one:

The tongue is inside the cheek, it's just not visible.

rwguinn · 17th September 2009, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

Ok,thanks.

In my defense, there was no smilie for tongue-in-cheek.

Same problem here ...

:^

BenBurch · 19th September 2009, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Sure there is, it's this one:

The tongue is inside the cheek, it's just not visible.

So, you're saying its an inside job?

ElMondoHummus · 19th September 2009, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Sure there is, it's this one:

The tongue is inside the cheek, it's just not visible.

Originally Posted by BenBurch

So, you're saying its an inside job?

And if you ever use the words "tongue" and "job" in the same context again, I WILL open fire!!!

Granted, all that'll happen is that you'll get wet, since all I'd use is a water gun, but be forwarned! You will get drenched!!!

BenBurch · 19th September 2009, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

And if you ever use the words "tongue" and "job" in the same context again, I WILL open fire!!!

Granted, all that'll happen is that you'll get wet, since all I'd use is a water gun, but be forwarned! You will get drenched!!! http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...7beae15535.gif

I thought the point of a tongue job was to get SOMEBODY wet, right?

Newtons Bit · 19th September 2009, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

I thought the point of a tongue job was to get SOMEBODY wet, right?

BenBurch · 7th October 2009, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Yes, I'm evil.

Elf Grinder 3000 · 10th October 2009, 01:49 PM

Here is the truthers argument or questions. Please explain

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...rch_type=&aq=f

Pentagon crash:

1. How did the plane that hit the pentagon disintegrate completely. The only thing that was found was skin from the plane and what they claim was the diffuser case from the tail of the claim.

2. Experts from Pratt and Whitney and Rolls Royce claim that the jet engine part "diffuser case" found in the pentagon was not from the plane that hit the building (a 757).

3. Why was there no mark from the jet engine impact on the sides of the Pentagon building.

4. Why did the fbi confiscate the the security tape from the local hotel, the gas station and the parking lot of the pentagon. The only tape of the crash shows a image that can not be identified by the video.

Architect · 10th October 2009, 01:51 PM

I'm afraid that you're on the wrong thread. This is specifically for those who challenge the "official theory" to support their claims that steel does not fail in normal hydrocarbon fires.

Sam.I.Am · 10th October 2009, 01:57 PM

If you're going to resurrect a thread at least do it to one that has some relevance to your post.

Elf Grinder 3000 · 10th October 2009, 02:00 PM

Is there an official thread arguing the steel "disintegrated" vs. melted?

Architect · 10th October 2009, 02:03 PM

Then start one. But this thread is specifically about Truther claims that steel is magically fireproof.

You'll note that none of them managed to come up with anything. This should tell you lots about the quality of their arguments.

BasqueArch · 10th October 2009, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Yes, I'm evil.

We know ... you have those "craaazy eyes"

BasqueArch · 10th October 2009, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Elf Grinder 3000

Here is the truthers argument or questions. Please explain

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...rch_type=&aq=f

Pentagon crash:
..............
2. Experts from Pratt and Whitney and Rolls Royce claim that the jet engine part "diffuser case" found in the pentagon was not from the plane that hit the building (a 757).

....... by the video.

Go to the top of the page hit"search" then fill in "google search" with whatever words like "pentagon rolls-royce" . Dozens of JREF pages will answer your question. Saves all of us lots of time.

TruthersLie · 10th October 2009, 04:03 PM

Here you go elfgrinder...
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=156171

your very own thread

UNLoVedRebel · 10th October 2009, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Elf Grinder 3000

Here is the truthers argument or questions. Please explain

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...rch_type=&aq=f

Pentagon crash:

1. How did the plane that hit the pentagon disintegrate completely. The only thing that was found was skin from the plane and what they claim was the diffuser case from the tail of the claim.

2. Experts from Pratt and Whitney and Rolls Royce claim that the jet engine part "diffuser case" found in the pentagon was not from the plane that hit the building (a 757).

3. Why was there no mark from the jet engine impact on the sides of the Pentagon building.

4. Why did the fbi confiscate the the security tape from the local hotel, the gas station and the parking lot of the pentagon. The only tape of the crash shows a image that can not be identified by the video.

Happy 2005 Everybody!

My predictions for the New Year:

Patriots will win the Super Bowl.

White Sox will in the World Series.

A hurricane will hit the gulf coast devastating New Orleans.

edit: I got a premonition North Carolina will win the Final Four.

dropzone · 12th October 2009, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by Architect

It was the boss' idea, don't blame me. And the client liked it. Always more of a Mies man myself.....

I had to redesign Mies' window frames for the IIT library so they did NOT let it water that later froze, breaking things. Mies designed buildings that both lacked any interest but also were not functional, the two greatest sins an architect can commit.

BenBurch · 13th October 2009, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by dropzone

I had to redesign Mies' window frames for the IIT library so they did NOT let it water that later froze, breaking things. Mies designed buildings that both lacked any interest but also were not functional, the two greatest sins an architect can commit.

Frank Lloyd Wright houses nearly always have leaky roofs.

BenBurch · 13th October 2009, 07:49 AM

BTW, in "Classic Trains" a few months back there was a picture and story of a Southern Pacific boiler explosion on an oil-fired locomotive in 1952. Almost at the end of steam. Classic crown sheet failure.

Grizzly Bear · 13th October 2009, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Frank Lloyd Wright houses nearly always have leaky roofs.

not just his houses...

Architect · 13th October 2009, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by dropzone

Mies designed buildings that both lacked any interest but also were not functional, the two greatest sins an architect can commit.

I can't comment as to his detailing skills, but the simplicity of his designs are exactly what makes the buildings of interest; you have to bear in mind that the Modern Movement is a reaction to over-detailing. Compare, for example, the work of Corbusier or other early Modernists.

And who can deny that the Barcelona Pavillion is wonderfield piece of sculpture, a play on light and space?

dropzone · 13th October 2009, 01:39 PM

Maybe it's because I live in Chicago and the area is positively infested with buildings by him and his fanboys.

Grizzly Bear · 13th October 2009, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by dropzone

Maybe it's because I live in Chicago and the area is positively infested with buildings by him and his fanboys.

(This is my last derail... I swear!)

Miami doesn't have too many good buildings itself. And really the only completed one that has drawn any of my attention is the Performing Arts Center in downtown. That project was laden with over-budgets because of the stuff they kept adding to the design. The MAM (Miami Art Museum) is getting a new location with designs by Herzog & De Mueron, and they had the model for that design on exhibit in the current museum location.

[/derail]

Just curious if any CD proponent's actually going to address the OP.... ever... You posted this a few months ago and it's been avoided like the plague.

BenBurch · 13th October 2009, 08:07 PM

Nope. Not one of them has had any coherent reply to the OP. Not that I expected them to. It proves that fire alone can bring down all-steel buildings.

A W Smith · 13th October 2009, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Frank Lloyd Wright houses nearly always have leaky roofs.

Wright often had his own interns with little to no experience performing work on those houses. His flat roofs are notorious for their leaks. One engineering firm has made a career out of correcting major structural defects in FLW buildings. They are bidding on their seventh. i have always hated his architecture. too much emphasis on the deep dark horizontal. Like living in a shale outcropping cave. He once said anyone over six feet tall is a weed. His Guggenheim museum looks to me like an overturned pile of hat boxes.

http://www.plinia.net/browser/browser-fallwater.html

I confess to being fan of Mies van der Rohe though. scouring the library for his work. the Seagram building, Farnsworth house, the Barcelona pavilion, IBM plaza. In also a fan of Philip Johnson. got a problem with that?

Grizzly Bear · 16th October 2009, 11:29 AM

Bumpety bumpety bump bump bumpety!
These truthers keep giving us these complaints that no steel structures have ever completely collapsed due to fires... surely if they think it can't possibly happen I would think they'd be able to walk into a thread like this one rather confidently. I'm quite curious why they aren't compelled to be more detailed about why the lack of precedents is an indication that it can never happen... should we be revising both local and international building codes? Couldn't we be saving so much money on construction costs if all that fireproofing were not required?

~~~~Awaiting ever optimistically that one of these guys shall make the big leap into this thread...

Architect · 18th October 2009, 01:24 AM

We'll never see them; in all fairness, we've not had anyone shouting "fireproof steel" for a few months now, but whether it's because they've found something else (explosives paper?) or given up on the point remains to be seen.

We could ask the Mods to rename this "The Mies Vs Corb Vs FLW Thread"?

A W Smith · 18th October 2009, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Architect

We'll never see them; in all fairness, we've not had anyone shouting "fireproof steel" for a few months now, but whether it's because they've found something else (explosives paper?) or given up on the point remains to be seen.

We could ask the Mods to rename this "The Mies Vs Corb Vs FLW Thread"?

A movie that scared me as a child was the 1959 horror movie "the house on the haunted hill". The few exterior shots of the house in that movie showed me a house that was cold, sterile and forbidding and I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to live there. Later in life I compared that style of house to the brutalist architecture of Le Corbusier. Looking for that movie on IMDB tonight I found the filming location. Imagine my surprise to find it is the Ennis house designed by FLW.

9/11 Chewy Defense · 18th October 2009, 08:43 PM

http://vodpod.com/watch/1686708-rich...6-in-fresno-ca

Richard Gage's a Practicing Architech of 20 years & is into fireproofing buildings.

<Bells going off in head>

Practicing Architech
Fireproofing Buildings

Truthers miss that 1 or something?

dropzone · 18th October 2009, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by A W Smith

A movie that scared me as a child was the 1959 horror movie "the house on the haunted hill".....

Thanks!

I live in a split-level, derived from the Prairie School. It has a nice layout, with a vaulted ceiling in the living room and a lower level that is usually above the flood level. The guys from the 20th century were not always wrong, and the IBM Building was cool until it had been copied dozens of times in Chicago's Loop, but one must have limits, and Mies' students and opponents have proven to be less than helpful. The Chicago Public Library, f'rinstance, could stand a previously-announced controlled demolition.

triforcharity · 18th October 2009, 09:27 PM

Here is an intersting paper I found. Even talks about hydrocarbon fires and the WTC.

Well, its not a WHOLE paper, but a chapter from a paper.

http://www.architecture.uwaterloo.ca...df/172-ch8.pdf

Thought it waas worth the read.

31st May 2009, 07:11 PM	#281
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,129	Originally Posted by George152 Just dull red is sufficient to work it though its easier if the steel is cherry red. Maybe the kooks have never heard of forge welding ? Likely. Its a LOT of work to forge things, and so the hotter the better. There is a reason your traditional blacksmith was muscular.
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3rd June 2009, 08:24 PM	#283
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,129	Originally Posted by tsig "Under a spreading chestnut-tree The village smithy stands; The smith, a mighty man is he, With large and sinewy hands; And the muscles of his brawny arms Are strong as iron bands." (HWL) Yes but could he bend steel in his bare hands? Therefore: inside job. Only in bad weather. The rest of the time you want to do that outside.
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15th September 2009, 08:24 PM	#284
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,129	Hey, truthers! Still putting your fingers in your ears and going "LA! LA! LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" are you?
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16th September 2009, 12:12 AM	#285
Architect Chief Punkah Wallah Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 8,478	Ahh, yes. I forgot about this thread. And so, of course, did our Truther friends.
	__________________ When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies. James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party

16th September 2009, 10:43 AM	#286
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,129	Originally Posted by Architect Ahh, yes. I forgot about this thread. And so, of course, did our Truther friends. They have finely-tuned reality filters.
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31st May 2009, 07:37 PM	#282
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,738	Originally Posted by BenBurch Likely. Its a LOT of work to forge things, and so the hotter the better. There is a reason your traditional blacksmith was muscular. "Under a spreading chestnut-tree The village smithy stands; The smith, a mighty man is he, With large and sinewy hands; And the muscles of his brawny arms Are strong as iron bands." (HWL) Yes but could he bend steel in his bare hands? Therefore: inside job.

16th September 2009, 11:12 AM	#287
jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: I beedunk 40 miles from the border Posts: 10,805	Its likely a case of "sshhhh, if you don't post in the thread it will pass to the second page of threads and be forgotten" Cherry red, dull orange, or simply hot due to the sun while constricted from expanding, steel behaves badly when heated.

16th September 2009, 11:17 AM	#288
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,432	Originally Posted by jaydeehess Its likely a case of "sshhhh, if you don't post in the thread it will pass to the second page of threads and be forgotten" Cherry red, dull orange, or simply hot due to the sun while constricted from expanding, steel behaves ~~badly~~ predictably when heated. Fixed that for you. This is an Educational Forum--let's be accurate.
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

17th September 2009, 02:52 PM	#289
jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: I beedunk 40 miles from the border Posts: 10,805	Originally Posted by rwguinn Fixed that for you. This is an Educational Forum--let's be accurate. Ok,thanks. In my defense, there was no smilie for tongue-in-cheek.

17th September 2009, 02:54 PM	#290
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,887	Originally Posted by jaydeehess Ok,thanks. In my defense, there was no smilie for tongue-in-cheek. Sure there is, it's this one: The tongue is inside the cheek, it's just not visible.
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,887	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

17th September 2009, 02:57 PM	#291
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,432	Originally Posted by jaydeehess Ok,thanks. In my defense, there was no smilie for tongue-in-cheek. Same problem here ... :^
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

19th September 2009, 06:18 PM	#292
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,129	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Sure there is, it's this one: The tongue is inside the cheek, it's just not visible. So, you're saying its an inside job?
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19th September 2009, 06:56 PM	#293
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 11,938	Arrrrgh!! The double entendres!!! >:-( Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Sure there is, it's this one: The tongue is inside the cheek, it's just not visible. Originally Posted by BenBurch So, you're saying its an inside job? And if you ever use the words "tongue" and "job" in the same context again, I WILL open fire!!! Granted, all that'll happen is that you'll get wet, since all I'd use is a water gun, but be forwarned! You will get drenched!!!
	__________________ must take this very carefully....booze is wise men's drink..... -pillory "... I'm quite willing to have everyone use my rejection of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a basis for assessing my intelligence, judgment, and trustworthiness" -Prof. Ann Althouse

19th September 2009, 07:22 PM	#294
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,129	Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus And if you ever use the words "tongue" and "job" in the same context again, I WILL open fire!!! Granted, all that'll happen is that you'll get wet, since all I'd use is a water gun, but be forwarned! You will get drenched!!! http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...7beae15535.gif I thought the point of a tongue job was to get SOMEBODY wet, right?
	__________________ Are you IN? Join the IN crowd now!

19th September 2009, 07:23 PM	#295
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,887	Originally Posted by BenBurch I thought the point of a tongue job was to get SOMEBODY wet, right?
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,887	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

7th October 2009, 03:12 PM	#296
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,129	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Yes, I'm evil.
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10th October 2009, 01:49 PM	#297
Elf Grinder 3000 Scholar Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 81	Here is the truthers argument or questions. Please explain http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...rch_type=&aq=f Pentagon crash: 1. How did the plane that hit the pentagon disintegrate completely. The only thing that was found was skin from the plane and what they claim was the diffuser case from the tail of the claim. 2. Experts from Pratt and Whitney and Rolls Royce claim that the jet engine part "diffuser case" found in the pentagon was not from the plane that hit the building (a 757). 3. Why was there no mark from the jet engine impact on the sides of the Pentagon building. 4. Why did the fbi confiscate the the security tape from the local hotel, the gas station and the parking lot of the pentagon. The only tape of the crash shows a image that can not be identified by the video.
Elf Grinder 3000 Scholar Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 81

10th October 2009, 01:51 PM	#298
Architect Chief Punkah Wallah Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 8,478	I'm afraid that you're on the wrong thread. This is specifically for those who challenge the "official theory" to support their claims that steel does not fail in normal hydrocarbon fires.
	__________________ When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies. James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party

10th October 2009, 01:57 PM	#299
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,154	If you're going to resurrect a thread at least do it to one that has some relevance to your post.
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar.

10th October 2009, 02:00 PM	#300
Elf Grinder 3000 Scholar Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 81	Is there an official thread arguing the steel "disintegrated" vs. melted?
Elf Grinder 3000 Scholar Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 81

10th October 2009, 02:03 PM	#301
Architect Chief Punkah Wallah Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 8,478	Then start one. But this thread is specifically about Truther claims that steel is magically fireproof. You'll note that none of them managed to come up with anything. This should tell you lots about the quality of their arguments.
	__________________ When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies. James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party

10th October 2009, 03:19 PM	#302
BasqueArch Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Whispering Glades, Fredonia Posts: 1,376	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Originally Posted by BenBurch Yes, I'm evil. We know ... you have those "craaazy eyes"
	Last edited by BasqueArch; 10th October 2009 at 04:00 PM.

10th October 2009, 03:46 PM	#303
BasqueArch Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Whispering Glades, Fredonia Posts: 1,376	Originally Posted by Elf Grinder 3000 Here is the truthers argument or questions. Please explain http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...rch_type=&aq=f Pentagon crash: .............. 2. Experts from Pratt and Whitney and Rolls Royce claim that the jet engine part "diffuser case" found in the pentagon was not from the plane that hit the building (a 757). ....... by the video. Go to the top of the page hit"search" then fill in "google search" with whatever words like "pentagon rolls-royce" . Dozens of JREF pages will answer your question. Saves all of us lots of time.

10th October 2009, 04:03 PM	#304
TruthersLie This space for rent. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates Posts: 3,720	Here you go elfgrinder... http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=156171 your very own thread

10th October 2009, 04:08 PM	#305
UNLoVedRebel Hard Knocks Doctorate Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: School of Hard Knocks Posts: 5,507	Originally Posted by Elf Grinder 3000 Here is the truthers argument or questions. Please explain http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...rch_type=&aq=f Pentagon crash: 1. How did the plane that hit the pentagon disintegrate completely. The only thing that was found was skin from the plane and what they claim was the diffuser case from the tail of the claim. 2. Experts from Pratt and Whitney and Rolls Royce claim that the jet engine part "diffuser case" found in the pentagon was not from the plane that hit the building (a 757). 3. Why was there no mark from the jet engine impact on the sides of the Pentagon building. 4. Why did the fbi confiscate the the security tape from the local hotel, the gas station and the parking lot of the pentagon. The only tape of the crash shows a image that can not be identified by the video. Happy 2005 Everybody! My predictions for the New Year: Patriots will win the Super Bowl. White Sox will in the World Series. A hurricane will hit the gulf coast devastating New Orleans. edit: I got a premonition North Carolina will win the Final Four.
	__________________ "All the Officialiers here typically have rancid alien avatars or else some kind of violent military-type avatar. Once again affirming my contention that 9/11 Officialiers are the most violent, murderous, group of people in the United States. Both statistically confirmed, but also anecdotally affirmed in almost every case of active pro-Officialers." - FloydGoethe Last edited by UNLoVedRebel; 10th October 2009 at 04:10 PM.

12th October 2009, 07:20 PM	#306
dropzone Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,666	Originally Posted by Architect It was the boss' idea, don't blame me. And the client liked it. Always more of a Mies man myself..... I had to redesign Mies' window frames for the IIT library so they did NOT let it water that later froze, breaking things. Mies designed buildings that both lacked any interest but also were not functional, the two greatest sins an architect can commit.

13th October 2009, 07:47 AM	#307
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,129	Originally Posted by dropzone I had to redesign Mies' window frames for the IIT library so they did NOT let it water that later froze, breaking things. Mies designed buildings that both lacked any interest but also were not functional, the two greatest sins an architect can commit. Frank Lloyd Wright houses nearly always have leaky roofs.
	__________________ Are you IN? Join the IN crowd now!

13th October 2009, 07:49 AM	#308
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,129	BTW, in "Classic Trains" a few months back there was a picture and story of a Southern Pacific boiler explosion on an oil-fired locomotive in 1952. Almost at the end of steam. Classic crown sheet failure.
	__________________ Are you IN? Join the IN crowd now!

13th October 2009, 10:31 AM	#309
Grizzly Bear このマスクによっ Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 5,689	Originally Posted by BenBurch Frank Lloyd Wright houses nearly always have leaky roofs. not just his houses...
Grizzly Bear このマスクによっ Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 5,689	__________________ Graduation on 8/13/2011 8D Last edited by Grizzly Bear; 13th October 2009 at 10:32 AM.

13th October 2009, 12:39 PM	#310
Architect Chief Punkah Wallah Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 8,478	Originally Posted by dropzone Mies designed buildings that both lacked any interest but also were not functional, the two greatest sins an architect can commit. I can't comment as to his detailing skills, but the simplicity of his designs are exactly what makes the buildings of interest; you have to bear in mind that the Modern Movement is a reaction to over-detailing. Compare, for example, the work of Corbusier or other early Modernists. And who can deny that the Barcelona Pavillion is wonderfield piece of sculpture, a play on light and space?
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13th October 2009, 01:39 PM	#311
dropzone Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,666	Maybe it's because I live in Chicago and the area is positively infested with buildings by him and his fanboys.

13th October 2009, 01:56 PM	#312
Grizzly Bear このマスクによっ Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 5,689	Originally Posted by dropzone Maybe it's because I live in Chicago and the area is positively infested with buildings by him and his fanboys. (This is my last derail... I swear!) Miami doesn't have too many good buildings itself. And really the only completed one that has drawn any of my attention is the Performing Arts Center in downtown. That project was laden with over-budgets because of the stuff they kept adding to the design. The MAM (Miami Art Museum) is getting a new location with designs by Herzog & De Mueron, and they had the model for that design on exhibit in the current museum location. [/derail] Just curious if any CD proponent's actually going to address the OP.... ever... You posted this a few months ago and it's been avoided like the plague.
Grizzly Bear このマスクによっ Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 5,689	__________________ Graduation on 8/13/2011 8D

13th October 2009, 08:07 PM	#313
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,129	Nope. Not one of them has had any coherent reply to the OP. Not that I expected them to. It proves that fire alone can bring down all-steel buildings.
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13th October 2009, 08:57 PM	#314
A W Smith Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Central Jersey Posts: 7,031	Cal me a fanboy of the Miesian style since about 1974 Originally Posted by BenBurch Frank Lloyd Wright houses nearly always have leaky roofs. Wright often had his own interns with little to no experience performing work on those houses. His flat roofs are notorious for their leaks. One engineering firm has made a career out of correcting major structural defects in FLW buildings. They are bidding on their seventh. i have always hated his architecture. too much emphasis on the deep dark horizontal. Like living in a shale outcropping cave. He once said anyone over six feet tall is a weed. His Guggenheim museum looks to me like an overturned pile of hat boxes. http://www.plinia.net/browser/browser-fallwater.html I confess to being fan of Mies van der Rohe though. scouring the library for his work. the Seagram building, Farnsworth house, the Barcelona pavilion, IBM plaza. In also a fan of Philip Johnson. got a problem with that?
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16th October 2009, 11:29 AM	#315
Grizzly Bear このマスクによっ Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 5,689	Bumpety bumpety bump bump bumpety! These truthers keep giving us these complaints that no steel structures have ever completely collapsed due to fires... surely if they think it can't possibly happen I would think they'd be able to walk into a thread like this one rather confidently. I'm quite curious why they aren't compelled to be more detailed about why the lack of precedents is an indication that it can never happen... should we be revising both local and international building codes? Couldn't we be saving so much money on construction costs if all that fireproofing were not required? ~~~~Awaiting ever optimistically that one of these guys shall make the big leap into this thread...
Grizzly Bear このマスクによっ Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 5,689	__________________ Graduation on 8/13/2011 8D