Driving an automobile; traffic; commuting; leisure cruising.

michaellee · 16th November 2003, 05:38 PM

Others here at the JREF may have started threads regarding driving an automobile. Good for them.
Not that I have hit a certain level of frustration or been sideswiped by some apparently blind co-driver;
The facts, as I see them, are very difficult to refute. I am writing this 6 hours since I was last behind
the wheel of an automobile, in an effort to let any "steam" that may have built up during my last driving escapade
dissapate. I actually thought of what I was going to write while driving, and I hope my diatribe touches the driver
in all of you who have the "privilege" of driving. In summary, I believe the following to be true:

1. If other drivers operated their vehicles as I do mine, there would be no traffic tie-ups, accidents, or gridlock.
2. Obtaining a California driver's license is easier, if you dare to believe, than graduating from public high school.
3. Is that a cell phone, makeup kit, or a Taco Bell Grande in your hand, you dumb moth......er.

Are all JREF'ers good drivers like myself? Or are you that driver I spotted causing that traffic tie-up last Wednesday?

16th November 2003, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by michaellee
Others here at the JREF may have started threads regarding driving an automobile. Good for them.
Not that I have hit a certain level of frustration or been sideswiped by some apparently blind co-driver;
The facts, as I see them, are very difficult to refute. I am writing this 6 hours since I was last behind
the wheel of an automobile, in an effort to let any "steam" that may have built up during my last driving escapade
dissapate. I actually thought of what I was going to write while driving, and I hope my diatribe touches the driver
in all of you who have the "privilege" of driving. In summary, I believe the following to be true:

1. If other drivers operated their vehicles as I do mine, there would be no traffic tie-ups, accidents, or gridlock.
2. Obtaining a California driver's license is easier, if you dare to believe, than graduating from public high school.
3. Is that a cell phone, makeup kit, or a Taco Bell Grande in your hand, you dumb moth......er.

Are all JREF'ers good drivers like myself? Or are you that driver I spotted causing that traffic tie-up last Wednesday?

I'd advise you to knock on wood at the first opportunity lest you run over a family of 5 the next time you drive somewhere.

Being a good driver depends on circumstance. I'm a good driver on mountain roads. In big city traffic I'm notsohotso.

geni · 16th November 2003, 05:47 PM

I cycle a lot so I am of the opion that drivers should recive more training in not killing cyclists.
As a driver I think I am about avarage for a fairly new driver (so I don't cause tie ups but if everyone drove like I did there would be a lot more of them).

Mr Manifesto · 16th November 2003, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Suddenly

I'd advise you to knock on wood at the first opportunity lest you run over a family of 5 the next time you drive somewhere.

Being a good driver depends on circumstance. I'm a good driver on mountain roads. In big city traffic I'm notsohotso.

That darned hypothetical family of five again! When will they learn to be more careful on the road?

michaellee · 16th November 2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Suddenly

Quote:

I'd advise you to knock on wood

No personal stabs intended! If there is any driver that knocks on wood, its me. I am 42 years old, driving since 16, my 1992 auto has 240K on it, all of these miles are work related, I have never driven it on vacation, and to this day, have avoided contact with another vehicle, dirt embankment, or drunken beggar, all this time. So if anyone is due for a collision, it's me.

16th November 2003, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

That darned hypothetical family of five again! When will they learn to be more careful on the road?

I put that in just for you, BTW.

Mr Manifesto · 16th November 2003, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Suddenly

I put that in just for you, BTW.

I think it should be the benchmark for all disaster scenarioes. Eg, "Bush's new proposal on building industry reform could cause a bridge to collapse and kill a family of five!"

16th November 2003, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by michaellee
Originally posted by Suddenly

No personal stabs intended! If there is any driver that knocks on wood, its me. I am 42 years old, driving since 16, my 1992 auto has 240K on it, all of these miles are work related, I have never driven it on vacation, and to this day, have avoided contact with another vehicle, dirt embankment, or drunken beggar, all this time. So if anyone is due for a collision, it's me.

I'm the opposite. I've been in two accidents that I most likely shouldn't have survived, and about 4 other collisions, and I'm a decade younger than you. My cars last as long as my socks, and none of these accidents were my fault.

There is something to be said for, during the third barrel roll while your car goes across the median into incoming traffic, thinking "O.K., so this is how I'm gonna die." Very liberating. Puts things in perspective, despite the psychological baggage. Assuming you somehow survive.

Ranb · 16th November 2003, 06:25 PM

I'm sure you find all types of people posting and lurking here. In fact, I think the typical poster here is no more rational than some of the machinegun crowd that posts at www.subguns.com .

I am under no impression that I am a better than average driver. I had my first major accident when I fell asleep at the wheel over 20 years ago on the way home from the prom. Since then, I have been rear ended 3 times, backed into once. and have cut off several drivers, almost causing one to go off the freeway.

I do not tie up traffic, but I may have run you off the road a few times.

Ranb

fishbob · 17th November 2003, 01:13 AM

I started driving when I was 12 on backroads and farms. To date, I have never been at the wheel of the car during an accident. I have been in the two wrecks as a passenger (no injuries), and I got hit on my bicycle once (ouch).

Every car I have owned, except my current one, has been hit while I was nowhere around. Each of these got mashed while legally parked.

58 Ford Pickup - unknown assailant
65 Mustang - backed into by my boss
67 Malibu - accident in the street came to a stop against my car
73 Torino - some guy running from the cops missed a turn
81 Honda Wagon - unknown assailant
89 Honda Hatchback - delivery truck

Luck and chance.

Ove · 17th November 2003, 01:47 AM

Quote:

none of these accidents were my fault.

Sorry but that's silly. Unless you tell me that those accidents happened while you was parked and somebody rammed you. There is ALLWAYS something you could have done to prevent an accident: Kept a better look out - Driven slower - kept more distance - etc. I realize what youre saying, like "he drowe right out in front of me" but even in that case you COULD have driven slower and kept a better look out at that siding.

I'm not trying to flame you but IMHO as long as both cars are moving BOTH drivers have some of the "blame" even if it is only 5 - 10%.

Jon_in_london · 17th November 2003, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by michaellee
Are all JREF'ers good drivers like myself?

Its strange how everyone is a good driver and nothing is their fault. Its always SOMEONE ELSE'S fault isnt it? Its always "THE OTHER GUY" who is to blame. This is one reason why I hate cars. As soon as someone gets behind the wheel they are transformed into belligerant egomaniacs who think they are a cross between Aryton Senna and Superman. Well actually, you arent. You are just like everybody else and to everybody else its YOU who is "THE OTHER GUY"!!!

Ove · 17th November 2003, 04:29 AM

My dad used to drive a truck (40 years never an accident), when i got my drivers license he said : "Son. Allways drive assuming that everybody else on the streets are complete nutcases".

I really find that a good advice. Many accidents happen because of :"Well surely he has seen me" or "He has to brake i got the rights" or similar.

You must NEVER expect the other driver to do "the sensible thing" but allways expect them to do something stupid.

Zep · 17th November 2003, 04:39 AM

Feel like you're a GOOD driver, know the rules, and deserve to be respected on the road?

Here lies the body of Thomas Gray.
He died defending his right of way.
He was right, so right, as he sped along.
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

Drive as if your life depended on it ..... because it does.

Jon_in_london · 17th November 2003, 04:46 AM

"The graveyard is full of people in a hurry"

Mr Manifesto · 17th November 2003, 04:55 AM

Never mind all that bollocks about impatient driving, lack of defensive driving, etc, the REAL problem is the family of five.

Just tonight, on the news, I saw this:

Family of Five Built House in Future Path of Oncoming Truck

UnrepentantSinner · 17th November 2003, 05:19 AM

I posted the "can you parellel park" thread some months ago and cannot parallel park. I do drive very carefully. I sometimes back off 5 mph or 100 feet just to be careful.

My Aztek has terrible view of where I am so I tend to swerve corners wide or have some trouble backing out of parking spaces. I do like my high view in daily driving though.

If more people drove defensively like me, and not like they're at a f***ing NASCAR racetrack then we'd have less wrecks and a lot less gridlock.

003998 · 17th November 2003, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ove
My dad used to drive a truck (40 years never an accident), when i got my drivers license he said : "Son. Allways drive assuming that everybody else on the streets are complete nutcases". I really find that a good advice. Many accidents happen because of :"Well surely he has seen me" or "He has to brake i got the rights" or similar.

You must NEVER expect the other driver to do "the sensible thing" but allways expect them to do something stupid.

My dad took that a step further and told me: "Son. When you drive, keep in mind that everybody else is out there to kill you."

I followed his advice and never had a major accident involving another driver. Sadly, it didn`t help me evade the multitude of immobile objects I encountered along the way. Gotta have to have something to do with bad hand-eye coordination and short attention span.

Jon_in_london · 17th November 2003, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 003998

My dad took that a step further and told me: "Son. When you drive, keep in mind that everybody else is out there to kill you."

I used to have that attitude when I had my bike. Ironically it was this attitude that did me in- I was so sure a minibus was planning to pull out and kill me that I momentarily lost concentration on the car in front of me screaching to a halt.

I fought the car and the car won.

LW · 17th November 2003, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by michaellee

Are all JREF'ers good drivers like myself?

When I was in driving school our instructor told us about studies that showed that 80% of drivers believe that they are better than average.

17th November 2003, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ove

Sorry but that's silly. Unless you tell me that those accidents happened while you was parked and somebody rammed you. There is ALLWAYS something you could have done to prevent an accident: Kept a better look out - Driven slower - kept more distance - etc. I realize what youre saying, like "he drowe right out in front of me" but even in that case you COULD have driven slower and kept a better look out at that siding.

I'm not trying to flame you but IMHO as long as both cars are moving BOTH drivers have some of the "blame" even if it is only 5 - 10%.

I meant according to the law and insurance company I was not to blame for any of these. I was sitting still for every car-car collision I've been in. The others involved landslides and road defects that I could not have reasonably avoided absent exremely slow driving, which would have made me a traffic hazzard anyway.

Causation is a different matter. If sure there is some action I could have taken to avoid each of these, but not a reasonable one. In each case I was driving with full control of my vehicle and in compliance with all relevent laws, and some outside agency presented an hazzard which could not be avoided with reasonable action. The "all parties are at fault" idea sounds like a "blame the victim" mentality. Every person is at some level a cause to every event that occurs to that person, in that but for some action or ommission the event would have been different or had not occurred. However, to assign blame based on things not reasonably foreseeable seems to mandate paranoia and overcompensation for possible risks, which is and of itself a hazzard.

Tmy · 17th November 2003, 06:53 AM

Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next?

Bikewer · 17th November 2003, 07:11 AM

As a police officer, I'm a constant observer of traffic trends....

at 56 years old, I've been doing that for a while, as well. Do folks drive more poorly now than they used to?
I dunno, really. I know there's lots more traffic, which screws up all the equations.
When I started in police work, there was essentially no traffic after midnight. Now, the freeways look pretty much the same 24/7.
Cars are a lot safer, if more fragile, if that makes sense. In fragging themselves, they frequently spare the driver. That said, high speed is still mighty deadly. Air bags don't cut it in 80 mph + collisions.
Seems to me that I see more people doing extremely dumb things in an effort to save a few seconds at best. Hanging turns in front of oncoming traffic, for instance, when letting that "pod" of traffic go by would only take a few seconds.
The level of competence does not seem to increase either, regardless of "drivers ed" programs.
Folks are still mistified by signs and directions.

As for the ubiquitous cell phone, here's what I see as the prime danger: Folks don't turn thier heads. They drive with the damn phone screwed into thier left ear, and drive with one hand. When making left turns, or changing lanes, they won' turn thier heads far enough to look properly, and they won't turn the steering wheel enough to "square off " the turn as you're supposed to.

One more bit: They ran a poll a while back, "How good a driver are you, and how many bad drivers are there?"

Something along the lines of 80% said they were "good" drivers.
These "good" drivers also said that they though that about 80% of other drivers were "bad."

Where did all the bad drivers come from?

Tmy · 17th November 2003, 07:18 AM

I hate how people say Boston drivers are the worst. We are notthe worst drivers. We are bad whenit comes to following the rules of the road , but our driving skills are much better than the average roadster.

If you have 20 minutes to get cross town and make your flight, who do you want driving. A Boston cabbie, or some yahoo from Des Moines.

wollery · 17th November 2003, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next?

Or singing along with the radio?

bjornart · 17th November 2003, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next?

http://www.apa.org/releases/driving_workload.html

They should, but they can't. Using a cell phone is marginally more distracting, since you have to accept the call or make it, and a ban is enforceable, sort of. People are supposed to know getting distracted is dangerous, but still they manage to do stuff like text messaging! Morons all of them! (I once drove several meters with the car half off the road after fiddling with the radio...

)

What's really needed is for people to realize that driving is g*****n dangerous. If you have lots of near accidents you are not a good driver, you are a lousy but lucky one, and you need to pay more attention to what you are doing.

michaellee · 17th November 2003, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Tmy
Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next?

It is no big deal if you are one the few drivers I see on a daily basis capable of multi-tasking. Most drivers while on their cell phones, are completely unaware of anything else going on around them, like the distinct possibility they are about to die because they cannot multi-task. I have no problem with those who talk on a cell phone and can still manage to change lanes properly, signal, or not cut off the nearest car because they have more important things to do than DRIVE safely.

And your driving record does say a lot. Of course, some accidents (never understood this term) are unavoidable as caused by others, but if you find a driver with multiple, at-fault accidents, and multiple instances of being convicted for traffic infractions, then, yes these are not your "best" drivers.

Cain · 17th November 2003, 08:45 AM

Quote:

When I was in driving school our instructor told us about studies that showed that 80% of drivers believe that they are better than average.

That holds true for just about anything though. Thomas Grizol wrote a wonderful book for skeptics called _How We Know it Isn't So_. Nintey-four percent of college professors believe they're better instructors than their collegues and so on.

I have never received a ticket or caused an accident. Somebody however did once hit the car behind my vehicle, and did a little bumper damage.

DrChinese · 17th November 2003, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next?

You are distracted, even if you don't acknowledge it. Different people are distracted by different amounts. Sometimes the net result is operating the vehicle in an unsafe manner, sometimes not.

I have noticed that drivers do not check their mirrors as often when talking on a cell phone. Pull up behind someone going average speed while in the left lane of the highway, and there is a very good chance they will be on their cell phone and won't move over. They are so absorbed in the call, they don't see you. There are many things that lessen the attention of drivers, and cell phones are one of them.

WildCat · 17th November 2003, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next?

Some people can, but many can't. Just look at the traffic around you. The guy doing 50 mph in the left lane of the interstate with 2 wheels in the breakdown lane? 95% of the time he's not drunk, just on the phone.
The woman in the Land Rover (I have never seen a man drive a Land Rover!) who has no idea that it's her turn at the 4-way stop, so everyone just sits there waiting for her to wake up? Cell phone.
And it doesn't matter if it's hands-free or not, the distraction is mental, not mechanical.

Other reasons for slowed traffic in Chicago:
-Left-turners who don't get out in the middle of the intersection so the car behind can also turn when the light changes. For those of you who live in the suburbs or cities w/ competent traffic engineers, in Chicago there are very few intersections w/ turn arrows and the left turn lanes (if present!) are very short. If 2 cars don't manage to turn the left turn traffic backs up and blocks the through lane, which causes chaos.

-People who block intersections. If you can't clear the intersection because of traffic, don't get in it! I can guarantee you the intersection of Damen and Elston is at a standstill right now for this very reason.

-Gaping (and the foot invarably hits the brakes as the jaw drops) at minor accidents or breakdowns on the other freakin' side of the interstate!

-Giant trucks who think it's a good idea to take a shortcut down narrow side streets.

-Illegally parked cars, either double-parked or parked right up to the intersection, blocking what is essentially the only form of right-turn lane you're likely to find here. And the people who double-park right next to an open parking spot should be severely beaten.

One question for you BMW drivers out there - why are the turn signals always broken?

michaellee · 17th November 2003, 05:50 PM

originally posted by WildCat

Quote:

-Gaping (and the foot invarably hits the brakes as the jaw drops) at minor accidents or breakdowns on the other freakin' side of the interstate!

Whenever traffic suddenly "hits the brakes", then 1 mile down the road the cause is only a minor fender bender on the 'other freakin' side of the interstate', I often say "someone must have rolled a golf ball across the freeway".

Iconoclast · 17th November 2003, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
If you have 20 minutes to get cross town and make your flight, who do you want driving. A Boston cabbie, or some yahoo from Des Moines.

That sounds like something a young Frank Gardner would have said...

Ove · 18th November 2003, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Causation is a different matter. If sure there is some action I could have taken to avoid each of these, but not a reasonable one. In each case I was driving with full control of my vehicle and in compliance with all relevent laws, and some outside agency presented an hazzard which could not be avoided with reasonable action. The "all parties are at fault" idea sounds like a "blame the victim" mentality. Every person is at some level a cause to every event that occurs to that person, in that but for some action or ommission the event would have been different or had not occurred. However, to assign blame based on things not reasonably foreseeable seems to mandate paranoia and overcompensation for possible risks, which is and of itself a hazzard.

True, my point was just that you allways hear a lot of bad excuses after accidents : "I ´HAD the rights" "He SHOULD have given sign" "She just came running out between two parked cars" etc. The one thing we need to be better at ALL of us is "reading" the traffic, trying to forese accidents but you are right it is a tough one.

Agammamon · 18th November 2003, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WildCat
. . .One question for you BMW drivers out there - why are the turn signals always broken? . . .

Hey, hey, hey! That is pure stereotyping, I use my turn signal all the time. Unfortunately it just makes the guy in front of me swerve into the very lane I am trying to get into.

Luke T. · 18th November 2003, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by michaellee
3. Is that a cell phone, makeup kit, or a Taco Bell Grande in your hand, you dumb moth......er.

I have a lot of traffic pet peeves. Lots and lots. Slower drivers in the left lane is number one. But the best bumper sticker I saw and almost bought was one that said "HANG UP AND DRIVE!!!"

There is a definite difference between talking to a passenger and talking to someone on the other end of a cell phone while driving.

edited to add: By the way, michaellee, I love your avatar. I do believe it is my favorite.

peptoabysmal · 18th November 2003, 09:18 PM

I don't know the exact mechanism, but it's something like this:
Engage mouth, disengage brain. For some reason, when people talk, especially on the cell phone, they are usually very distracted.

I would agree with points 1, 2, and 3 in the original post and add that anyone driving faster than you is a maniac and anyone driving slower is an idiot.

I can never understand when there is a curve on the freeway, which in no way requires Mario Andretti-like skills, almost everyone slows down like 10 mph. Same goes for hills.

I love using the cruise control, except for one thing, other drivers are incapable of maintaining a consistent speed.

I confess that once in a great while, when some f*cker in a little Honda cuts me off while driving my big-ass Hemi 4x4 ,this flicker of homicidal mania comes across me and quickly leaves. I just imagine how far I could knock the summabitch off the freeway, road, whatever. The gratification of the fantasy seems to be enough by itself to ease my frustration.

16th November 2003, 05:38 PM	#1
michaellee Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 634	Driving an automobile; traffic; commuting; leisure cruising. Others here at the JREF may have started threads regarding driving an automobile. Good for them. Not that I have hit a certain level of frustration or been sideswiped by some apparently blind co-driver; The facts, as I see them, are very difficult to refute. I am writing this 6 hours since I was last behind the wheel of an automobile, in an effort to let any "steam" that may have built up during my last driving escapade dissapate. I actually thought of what I was going to write while driving, and I hope my diatribe touches the driver in all of you who have the "privilege" of driving. In summary, I believe the following to be true: 1. If other drivers operated their vehicles as I do mine, there would be no traffic tie-ups, accidents, or gridlock. 2. Obtaining a California driver's license is easier, if you dare to believe, than graduating from public high school. 3. Is that a cell phone, makeup kit, or a Taco Bell Grande in your hand, you dumb moth......er. Are all JREF'ers good drivers like myself? Or are you that driver I spotted causing that traffic tie-up last Wednesday?
michaellee Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 634

16th November 2003, 05:43 PM	#2
Suddenly Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Driving an automobile; traffic; commuting; leisure cruising. Quote: Originally posted by michaellee Others here at the JREF may have started threads regarding driving an automobile. Good for them. Not that I have hit a certain level of frustration or been sideswiped by some apparently blind co-driver; The facts, as I see them, are very difficult to refute. I am writing this 6 hours since I was last behind the wheel of an automobile, in an effort to let any "steam" that may have built up during my last driving escapade dissapate. I actually thought of what I was going to write while driving, and I hope my diatribe touches the driver in all of you who have the "privilege" of driving. In summary, I believe the following to be true: 1. If other drivers operated their vehicles as I do mine, there would be no traffic tie-ups, accidents, or gridlock. 2. Obtaining a California driver's license is easier, if you dare to believe, than graduating from public high school. 3. Is that a cell phone, makeup kit, or a Taco Bell Grande in your hand, you dumb moth......er. Are all JREF'ers good drivers like myself? Or are you that driver I spotted causing that traffic tie-up last Wednesday? I'd advise you to knock on wood at the first opportunity lest you run over a family of 5 the next time you drive somewhere. Being a good driver depends on circumstance. I'm a good driver on mountain roads. In big city traffic I'm notsohotso.
Suddenly Guest Posts: n/a

16th November 2003, 05:51 PM	#4
Mr Manifesto Hierophant Walrus of the Secret Clique Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 4,824	Re: Re: Driving an automobile; traffic; commuting; leisure cruising. Quote: Originally posted by Suddenly I'd advise you to knock on wood at the first opportunity lest you run over a family of 5 the next time you drive somewhere. Being a good driver depends on circumstance. I'm a good driver on mountain roads. In big city traffic I'm notsohotso. That darned hypothetical family of five again! When will they learn to be more careful on the road?

16th November 2003, 05:51 PM	#5
michaellee Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 634	Originally posted by Suddenly Quote: I'd advise you to knock on wood No personal stabs intended! If there is any driver that knocks on wood, its me. I am 42 years old, driving since 16, my 1992 auto has 240K on it, all of these miles are work related, I have never driven it on vacation, and to this day, have avoided contact with another vehicle, dirt embankment, or drunken beggar, all this time. So if anyone is due for a collision, it's me.
michaellee Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 634

16th November 2003, 05:59 PM	#6
Suddenly Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Re: Re: Driving an automobile; traffic; commuting; leisure cruising. Quote: Originally posted by Mr Manifesto That darned hypothetical family of five again! When will they learn to be more careful on the road? I put that in just for you, BTW.
Suddenly Guest Posts: n/a

16th November 2003, 05:47 PM	#3
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,568	I cycle a lot so I am of the opion that drivers should recive more training in not killing cyclists. As a driver I think I am about avarage for a fairly new driver (so I don't cause tie ups but if everyone drove like I did there would be a lot more of them).

16th November 2003, 06:07 PM	#7
Mr Manifesto Hierophant Walrus of the Secret Clique Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 4,824	Re: Re: Re: Re: Driving an automobile; traffic; commuting; leisure cruising. Quote: Originally posted by Suddenly I put that in just for you, BTW. I think it should be the benchmark for all disaster scenarioes. Eg, "Bush's new proposal on building industry reform could cause a bridge to collapse and kill a family of five!"

16th November 2003, 06:09 PM	#8
Suddenly Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by michaellee Originally posted by Suddenly No personal stabs intended! If there is any driver that knocks on wood, its me. I am 42 years old, driving since 16, my 1992 auto has 240K on it, all of these miles are work related, I have never driven it on vacation, and to this day, have avoided contact with another vehicle, dirt embankment, or drunken beggar, all this time. So if anyone is due for a collision, it's me. I'm the opposite. I've been in two accidents that I most likely shouldn't have survived, and about 4 other collisions, and I'm a decade younger than you. My cars last as long as my socks, and none of these accidents were my fault. There is something to be said for, during the third barrel roll while your car goes across the median into incoming traffic, thinking "O.K., so this is how I'm gonna die." Very liberating. Puts things in perspective, despite the psychological baggage. Assuming you somehow survive.
Suddenly Guest Posts: n/a

16th November 2003, 06:25 PM	#9
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,105	I'm sure you find all types of people posting and lurking here. In fact, I think the typical poster here is no more rational than some of the machinegun crowd that posts at www.subguns.com . I am under no impression that I am a better than average driver. I had my first major accident when I fell asleep at the wheel over 20 years ago on the way home from the prom. Since then, I have been rear ended 3 times, backed into once. and have cut off several drivers, almost causing one to go off the freeway. I do not tie up traffic, but I may have run you off the road a few times. Ranb

17th November 2003, 01:13 AM	#10
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 5,667	I started driving when I was 12 on backroads and farms. To date, I have never been at the wheel of the car during an accident. I have been in the two wrecks as a passenger (no injuries), and I got hit on my bicycle once (ouch). Every car I have owned, except my current one, has been hit while I was nowhere around. Each of these got mashed while legally parked. 58 Ford Pickup - unknown assailant 65 Mustang - backed into by my boss 67 Malibu - accident in the street came to a stop against my car 73 Torino - some guy running from the cops missed a turn 81 Honda Wagon - unknown assailant 89 Honda Hatchback - delivery truck Luck and chance.
	__________________ When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder "Stupidity - a callow indifference to facts or data" - Stuart Firestein -neuroscientist. I hate bigots.

17th November 2003, 01:47 AM	#11
Ove Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,884	Quote: none of these accidents were my fault. Sorry but that's silly. Unless you tell me that those accidents happened while you was parked and somebody rammed you. There is ALLWAYS something you could have done to prevent an accident: Kept a better look out - Driven slower - kept more distance - etc. I realize what youre saying, like "he drowe right out in front of me" but even in that case you COULD have driven slower and kept a better look out at that siding. I'm not trying to flame you but IMHO as long as both cars are moving BOTH drivers have some of the "blame" even if it is only 5 - 10%.
	__________________ I am sitting here, completely surrounded by NO BEER..... (Onslow)

17th November 2003, 02:11 AM	#12
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Re: Driving an automobile; traffic; commuting; leisure cruising. Quote: Originally posted by michaellee Are all JREF'ers good drivers like myself? Its strange how everyone is a good driver and nothing is their fault. Its always SOMEONE ELSE'S fault isnt it? Its always "THE OTHER GUY" who is to blame. This is one reason why I hate cars. As soon as someone gets behind the wheel they are transformed into belligerant egomaniacs who think they are a cross between Aryton Senna and Superman. Well actually, you arent. You are just like everybody else and to everybody else its YOU who is "THE OTHER GUY"!!!
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

17th November 2003, 04:29 AM	#13
Ove Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,884	My dad used to drive a truck (40 years never an accident), when i got my drivers license he said : "Son. Allways drive assuming that everybody else on the streets are complete nutcases". I really find that a good advice. Many accidents happen because of :"Well surely he has seen me" or "He has to brake i got the rights" or similar. You must NEVER expect the other driver to do "the sensible thing" but allways expect them to do something stupid.
	__________________ I am sitting here, completely surrounded by NO BEER..... (Onslow)

17th November 2003, 04:39 AM	#14
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	Feel like you're a GOOD driver, know the rules, and deserve to be respected on the road? Here lies the body of Thomas Gray. He died defending his right of way. He was right, so right, as he sped along. But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong. Drive as if your life depended on it ..... because it does.
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

17th November 2003, 04:46 AM	#15
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	"The graveyard is full of people in a hurry"
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

17th November 2003, 04:55 AM	#16
Mr Manifesto Hierophant Walrus of the Secret Clique Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 4,824	Never mind all that bollocks about impatient driving, lack of defensive driving, etc, the REAL problem is the family of five. Just tonight, on the news, I saw this: Family of Five Built House in Future Path of Oncoming Truck

17th November 2003, 05:19 AM	#17
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	I posted the "can you parellel park" thread some months ago and cannot parallel park. I do drive very carefully. I sometimes back off 5 mph or 100 feet just to be careful. My Aztek has terrible view of where I am so I tend to swerve corners wide or have some trouble backing out of parking spaces. I do like my high view in daily driving though. If more people drove defensively like me, and not like they're at a f***ing NASCAR racetrack then we'd have less wrecks and a lot less gridlock.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

17th November 2003, 05:58 AM	#18
003998 Scholar Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 67	Quote: Originally posted by Ove My dad used to drive a truck (40 years never an accident), when i got my drivers license he said : "Son. Allways drive assuming that everybody else on the streets are complete nutcases". I really find that a good advice. Many accidents happen because of :"Well surely he has seen me" or "He has to brake i got the rights" or similar. You must NEVER expect the other driver to do "the sensible thing" but allways expect them to do something stupid. My dad took that a step further and told me: "Son. When you drive, keep in mind that everybody else is out there to kill you." I followed his advice and never had a major accident involving another driver. Sadly, it didn`t help me evade the multitude of immobile objects I encountered along the way. Gotta have to have something to do with bad hand-eye coordination and short attention span.
003998 Scholar Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 67

17th November 2003, 06:10 AM	#19
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Quote: Originally posted by 003998 My dad took that a step further and told me: "Son. When you drive, keep in mind that everybody else is out there to kill you." I used to have that attitude when I had my bike. Ironically it was this attitude that did me in- I was so sure a minibus was planning to pull out and kill me that I momentarily lost concentration on the car in front of me screaching to a halt. I fought the car and the car won.
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

17th November 2003, 06:22 AM	#20
LW Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 60°N 25°E Posts: 2,800	Re: Driving an automobile; traffic; commuting; leisure cruising. Quote: Originally posted by michaellee Are all JREF'ers good drivers like myself? When I was in driving school our instructor told us about studies that showed that 80% of drivers believe that they are better than average.

17th November 2003, 06:43 AM	#21
Suddenly Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Ove Sorry but that's silly. Unless you tell me that those accidents happened while you was parked and somebody rammed you. There is ALLWAYS something you could have done to prevent an accident: Kept a better look out - Driven slower - kept more distance - etc. I realize what youre saying, like "he drowe right out in front of me" but even in that case you COULD have driven slower and kept a better look out at that siding. I'm not trying to flame you but IMHO as long as both cars are moving BOTH drivers have some of the "blame" even if it is only 5 - 10%. I meant according to the law and insurance company I was not to blame for any of these. I was sitting still for every car-car collision I've been in. The others involved landslides and road defects that I could not have reasonably avoided absent exremely slow driving, which would have made me a traffic hazzard anyway. Causation is a different matter. If sure there is some action I could have taken to avoid each of these, but not a reasonable one. In each case I was driving with full control of my vehicle and in compliance with all relevent laws, and some outside agency presented an hazzard which could not be avoided with reasonable action. The "all parties are at fault" idea sounds like a "blame the victim" mentality. Every person is at some level a cause to every event that occurs to that person, in that but for some action or ommission the event would have been different or had not occurred. However, to assign blame based on things not reasonably foreseeable seems to mandate paranoia and overcompensation for possible risks, which is and of itself a hazzard.
Suddenly Guest Posts: n/a

17th November 2003, 06:53 AM	#22
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next?

17th November 2003, 07:11 AM	#23
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,528	As a police officer, I'm a constant observer of traffic trends.... at 56 years old, I've been doing that for a while, as well. Do folks drive more poorly now than they used to? I dunno, really. I know there's lots more traffic, which screws up all the equations. When I started in police work, there was essentially no traffic after midnight. Now, the freeways look pretty much the same 24/7. Cars are a lot safer, if more fragile, if that makes sense. In fragging themselves, they frequently spare the driver. That said, high speed is still mighty deadly. Air bags don't cut it in 80 mph + collisions. Seems to me that I see more people doing extremely dumb things in an effort to save a few seconds at best. Hanging turns in front of oncoming traffic, for instance, when letting that "pod" of traffic go by would only take a few seconds. The level of competence does not seem to increase either, regardless of "drivers ed" programs. Folks are still mistified by signs and directions. As for the ubiquitous cell phone, here's what I see as the prime danger: Folks don't turn thier heads. They drive with the damn phone screwed into thier left ear, and drive with one hand. When making left turns, or changing lanes, they won' turn thier heads far enough to look properly, and they won't turn the steering wheel enough to "square off " the turn as you're supposed to. One more bit: They ran a poll a while back, "How good a driver are you, and how many bad drivers are there?" Something along the lines of 80% said they were "good" drivers. These "good" drivers also said that they though that about 80% of other drivers were "bad." Where did all the bad drivers come from?

17th November 2003, 07:18 AM	#24
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	I hate how people say Boston drivers are the worst. We are notthe worst drivers. We are bad whenit comes to following the rules of the road , but our driving skills are much better than the average roadster. If you have 20 minutes to get cross town and make your flight, who do you want driving. A Boston cabbie, or some yahoo from Des Moines.

17th November 2003, 07:24 AM	#25
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! TLA Winner Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,316	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next? Or singing along with the radio?
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

17th November 2003, 07:50 AM	#26
bjornart Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,395	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next? http://www.apa.org/releases/driving_workload.html They should, but they can't. Using a cell phone is marginally more distracting, since you have to accept the call or make it, and a ban is enforceable, sort of. People are supposed to know getting distracted is dangerous, but still they manage to do stuff like text messaging! Morons all of them! (I once drove several meters with the car half off the road after fiddling with the radio... ) What's really needed is for people to realize that driving is g*****n dangerous. If you have lots of near accidents you are not a good driver, you are a lousy but lucky one, and you need to pay more attention to what you are doing.
bjornart Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,395	__________________ Well, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU LIKE TO BELIEVE, GODDAMMIT! I DEAL IN THE FACTS! -Cecil Adams

17th November 2003, 08:24 AM	#27
michaellee Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 634	Originally posted by Tmy Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next? It is no big deal if you are one the few drivers I see on a daily basis capable of multi-tasking. Most drivers while on their cell phones, are completely unaware of anything else going on around them, like the distinct possibility they are about to die because they cannot multi-task. I have no problem with those who talk on a cell phone and can still manage to change lanes properly, signal, or not cut off the nearest car because they have more important things to do than DRIVE safely. And your driving record does say a lot. Of course, some accidents (never understood this term) are unavoidable as caused by others, but if you find a driver with multiple, at-fault accidents, and multiple instances of being convicted for traffic infractions, then, yes these are not your "best" drivers.
michaellee Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 634

17th November 2003, 08:45 AM	#28
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,937	Quote: When I was in driving school our instructor told us about studies that showed that 80% of drivers believe that they are better than average. That holds true for just about anything though. Thomas Grizol wrote a wonderful book for skeptics called _How We Know it Isn't So_. Nintey-four percent of college professors believe they're better instructors than their collegues and so on. I have never received a ticket or caused an accident. Somebody however did once hit the car behind my vehicle, and did a little bumper damage.
	__________________ *Arrested Development* is coming back! Michael (to GOB): Get rid of the Seaward. Lucille: I’ll leave when I’m good and ready.

17th November 2003, 09:57 AM	#29
DrChinese Muse Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 634	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next? You are distracted, even if you don't acknowledge it. Different people are distracted by different amounts. Sometimes the net result is operating the vehicle in an unsafe manner, sometimes not. I have noticed that drivers do not check their mirrors as often when talking on a cell phone. Pull up behind someone going average speed while in the left lane of the highway, and there is a very good chance they will be on their cell phone and won't move over. They are so absorbed in the call, they don't see you. There are many things that lessen the attention of drivers, and cell phones are one of them.
DrChinese Muse Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 634	__________________ www.DrChinese.com The map is not the territory. - Korzybski.

17th November 2003, 04:34 PM	#30
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,049	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Whats the big deal about talking on a cell phone while your driving? The argument that your distracted is silly. ARe you anymore distracted talking to the passenger?? WIll they outlaw speech in automobiles next? Some people can, but many can't. Just look at the traffic around you. The guy doing 50 mph in the left lane of the interstate with 2 wheels in the breakdown lane? 95% of the time he's not drunk, just on the phone. The woman in the Land Rover (I have never seen a man drive a Land Rover!) who has no idea that it's her turn at the 4-way stop, so everyone just sits there waiting for her to wake up? Cell phone. And it doesn't matter if it's hands-free or not, the distraction is mental, not mechanical. Other reasons for slowed traffic in Chicago: -Left-turners who don't get out in the middle of the intersection so the car behind can also turn when the light changes. For those of you who live in the suburbs or cities w/ competent traffic engineers, in Chicago there are very few intersections w/ turn arrows and the left turn lanes (if present!) are very short. If 2 cars don't manage to turn the left turn traffic backs up and blocks the through lane, which causes chaos. -People who block intersections. If you can't clear the intersection because of traffic, don't get in it! I can guarantee you the intersection of Damen and Elston is at a standstill right now for this very reason. -Gaping (and the foot invarably hits the brakes as the jaw drops) at minor accidents or breakdowns on the other freakin' side of the interstate! -Giant trucks who think it's a good idea to take a shortcut down narrow side streets. -Illegally parked cars, either double-parked or parked right up to the intersection, blocking what is essentially the only form of right-turn lane you're likely to find here. And the people who double-park right next to an open parking spot should be severely beaten. One question for you BMW drivers out there - why are the turn signals always broken?

17th November 2003, 05:50 PM	#31
michaellee Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 634	originally posted by WildCat Quote: -Gaping (and the foot invarably hits the brakes as the jaw drops) at minor accidents or breakdowns on the other freakin' side of the interstate! Whenever traffic suddenly "hits the brakes", then 1 mile down the road the cause is only a minor fender bender on the 'other freakin' side of the interstate', I often say "someone must have rolled a golf ball across the freeway".
michaellee Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 634

17th November 2003, 07:41 PM	#32
Iconoclast Breaker of Icons Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,797	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy If you have 20 minutes to get cross town and make your flight, who do you want driving. A Boston cabbie, or some yahoo from Des Moines. That sounds like something a young Frank Gardner would have said...
	__________________ A gun is not a weapon Marge, it's a tool, like a butcher knife or a harpoon or... ah... ah... an alligator. You just need more education on the subject. -- Homer Simpson

18th November 2003, 03:40 AM	#33
Ove Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,884	Quote: Causation is a different matter. If sure there is some action I could have taken to avoid each of these, but not a reasonable one. In each case I was driving with full control of my vehicle and in compliance with all relevent laws, and some outside agency presented an hazzard which could not be avoided with reasonable action. The "all parties are at fault" idea sounds like a "blame the victim" mentality. Every person is at some level a cause to every event that occurs to that person, in that but for some action or ommission the event would have been different or had not occurred. However, to assign blame based on things not reasonably foreseeable seems to mandate paranoia and overcompensation for possible risks, which is and of itself a hazzard. True, my point was just that you allways hear a lot of bad excuses after accidents : "I ´HAD the rights" "He SHOULD have given sign" "She just came running out between two parked cars" etc. The one thing we need to be better at ALL of us is "reading" the traffic, trying to forese accidents but you are right it is a tough one.
	__________________ I am sitting here, completely surrounded by NO BEER..... (Onslow)

18th November 2003, 11:25 AM	#34
Agammamon Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,385	Quote: Originally posted by WildCat . . .One question for you BMW drivers out there - why are the turn signals always broken? . . . Hey, hey, hey! That is pure stereotyping, I use my turn signal all the time. Unfortunately it just makes the guy in front of me swerve into the very lane I am trying to get into.
	__________________ It will be a great day when the US Air Force has all the bombs it needs and the NEA has to hold a bake sale in order to pay its lobbyists.

18th November 2003, 11:32 AM	#35
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Re: Driving an automobile; traffic; commuting; leisure cruising. Quote: Originally posted by michaellee 3. Is that a cell phone, makeup kit, or a Taco Bell Grande in your hand, you dumb moth......er. I have a lot of traffic pet peeves. Lots and lots. Slower drivers in the left lane is number one. But the best bumper sticker I saw and almost bought was one that said "HANG UP AND DRIVE!!!" There is a definite difference between talking to a passenger and talking to someone on the other end of a cell phone while driving. edited to add: By the way, michaellee, I love your avatar. I do believe it is my favorite.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759