Karma seems to work.

Cainkane1 · 6th March 2009, 06:56 AM

I'm 62 years old and four years ago I went to my last highschool reunion. Most of the tough guys were missing. Many had died and others had been injured. One particularly bad person I knew had actually lost both of his feet in a motorcycle accident. Are people with a mean disposition more likely to have accidents than a normal person? Also many of these bully types had done jail time and this includes one person who had beat his wife to death and was in prison for life.

slingblade · 6th March 2009, 07:00 AM

If karma worked, I wouldn't be homeless, and an alcoholic wife-abuser wouldn't be the richest man in town.

theMark · 6th March 2009, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

I'm 62 years old and four years ago I went to my last highschool reunion. Most of the tough guys were missing. Many had died and others had been injured. One particularly bad person I knew had actually lost both of his feet in a motorcycle accident. Are people with a mean disposition more likely to have accidents than a normal person? Also many of these bully types had done jail time and this includes one person who had beat his wife to death and was in prison for life.

Well - isn't that just "actions and consequences"? People playing it rough are more likely to either hurt themselves or get hurt. If "driving a motorcycle" says "tough", then "tough" comes with a higher chance of being involved in a motorcycle crash than someone who does NOT drive a motorcycle...

"Karma" doesn't seem to apply in the financial world or in politics, either - a politician needs to be of average intellect, able to compromise on anything, ruthlessly self-serving and willing to play enemies and friends better than they play him. Because anyone too introspective will drop from the radar in the blink of an eye...

Just quoting an opinion piece here, of course

quarky · 6th March 2009, 07:18 AM

I thought Karma was a concept that involved many lifetimes, as in reincarnation.
If so, there's no judging it, unless you pretend to see the big picture.

For revenge, one must assume the pricks today will have a nasty life next time around.

Safe-Keeper · 6th March 2009, 07:18 AM

Bullies and other people who do bad things frequently do them because they're living rough lives. They're at-risk people, with bad upbringing or whatever. Which is why the two -being 'tough' and ending up the victim of all kinds of bad things- go together.

Gitro · 6th March 2009, 07:20 AM

Well, have you ever thought that, because of the way they act, it leads them to do things that are high-risk/illegal? As in, the bully type beats his wife because he is a bully, and winds up in jail for it.

Freethinker · 6th March 2009, 08:10 AM

So that explains why one of the nicest guys I know lost his only child in a car accident 2 years ago and is now dying of an incurable but excruciatingly slow, painful disease. Church deacon, founded a drug free club for kids, tireless volunteer, great co-worker and all-around nice guy.

quarky · 6th March 2009, 08:12 AM

The bully beats his wife because she deserves the beatings on account of being a beater in her previous life. That's the beauty of Karma.

Dancing David · 6th March 2009, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by theMark

Well - isn't that just "actions and consequences"?

Ah, the buddha nature!

That is all that kamma is in the strict buddhist interpretation is, negative thoughts, acts, words, intents have negative consequences.

There are other influences as well.

yy2bggggs · 6th March 2009, 08:49 AM

So, are we talking the rational form of karma, where your actions simply have consequences, or the irrational new agey kind of mystic balancing force?

Regardless, what seemed to be observed by the OP is slightly distinct. It's more of an observation that dispositions have consequences, which may in addition be inflated by confirmation bias.

Cainkane1 · 6th March 2009, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Freethinker

So that explains why one of the nicest guys I know lost his only child in a car accident 2 years ago and is now dying of an incurable but excruciatingly slow, painful disease. Church deacon, founded a drug free club for kids, tireless volunteer, great co-worker and all-around nice guy.

I don't really believe in karma. I just wanted a discussion. Horrilbe things happen to great people all the time. I'd also like to add in the case of most bullys like the other posters say they live lives that invite disaster and retaliation. I'll add this. While most Bullys have self induced problems basically they never get punished as much as they deserve. A lady at writing.com told me that a man who molested her ended up on the street where he died a hopeless alcoholic. However she didn't tell the police what he had done. He simply imploaded in a slow karmic self induced disaster.

Sorry about your friend.

slingblade · 6th March 2009, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by quarky

The bully beats his wife because she deserves the beatings on account of being a beater in her previous life. That's the beauty of Karma.

Excuse me?

JoeTheJuggler · 6th March 2009, 09:58 AM

I don't think one's subjective observation at a high school reunion even rises to the level of evidence that there is even something going on in need of explanation. (Frankly, I doubt very much that high school bullies die young. I suspect many bullies go on to lead very successful lives.)

I think trying to give rational explanations for why bullies don't live long is rather like trying to give rational explanations for the unusual number of disappearances of planes and ships in the Bermuda Triangle . . .with out first verifying that there is an unusual number of such disappearances.

JoeTheJuggler · 6th March 2009, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by yy2bggggs

So, are we talking the rational form of karma, where your actions simply have consequences, or the irrational new agey kind of mystic balancing force?

From the OP, I'd say he's talking bout the latter--some sort of cosmic justice.

Quote:

Regardless, what seemed to be observed by the OP is slightly distinct. It's more of an observation that dispositions have consequences, which may in addition be inflated by confirmation bias.

I don't think it rises even to that level. It could be ALL bias and no observation of any real consequences.

It could be that all the very meek and quiet people, who also failed to show up because they came to bad ends, just weren't memorable enough for their absence to be noticeable.

I wonder how flexible the definition of who is a bully and who isn't was before going to the reunion. (For that matter--are there really bullies in high school? I had 400 people in my class, and I can't think of anyone I'd label a "bully".)

Tanstaafl · 6th March 2009, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

I wonder how flexible the definition of who is a bully and who isn't was before going to the reunion. (For that matter--are there really bullies in high school? I had 400 people in my class, and I can't think of anyone I'd label a "bully".)

Well, all I can say is I wish I went to your school instead of mine.

joobz · 6th March 2009, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by slingblade

Excuse me?

I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view. He's just posting the real logic behind karma. The lot you are given in life is what you deserve because supposedly you did something to deserve it.

That's the justification of the Caste system in India.

You can justify anything (good or bad) with Karma.

billw · 6th March 2009, 10:12 AM

All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness.

Ecclesiastes 7:15, KJV

Cainkane1 · 6th March 2009, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Tanstaafl

Well, all I can say is I wish I went to your school instead of mine.

Me too. I went to a school where there was a lot of poverty. Some of these bullys were victims of abuse themselves although I'll say this. The worst ones were athletes and some were even scholars. These didn't die young but they had been married and dovorced several times and their children didn't love them. They had lost a lot of money on divorce and child support.

I Ratant · 6th March 2009, 10:30 AM

"What goes around around, comes around"... but many times on the return trip, you're not there to receive it.
For some reason "quid pro quo" was floating around in the old head bone earlier today before arising.
What "karma" is Maddof existing on?
There's no one/nothing keeping track of goods and bads in any ledger that has to be balanced for an even life.
Life is hard, then you die.
Do unto others as you would have them do to you, because it makes life better for all involved.
If only everyone followed that dictum.

I Ratant · 6th March 2009, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

...

I wonder how flexible the definition of who is a bully and who isn't was before going to the reunion. (For that matter--are there really bullies in high school? I had 400 people in my class, and I can't think of anyone I'd label a "bully".)

.
I never had a class with more than 15 people at most, before college!
One bully in a class with only 5 people once.

Cainkane1 · 6th March 2009, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by billw

All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness.

Ecclesiastes 7:15, KJV

Yes the bible does say that. It kinda pulls the rug out from under Karma in this life anyway. Still bad people do invite trouble. People retaliate, they drive recklessly and have wrecks, they get in trouble with the law etc. One particularly bad person I knew in highschool was making a good living as a used car parts junkjard owner. He was sitting in his easy chair and he died while asleep.

chillzero · 6th March 2009, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by quarky

The bully beats his wife because she deserves the beatings on account of being a beater in her previous life. That's the beauty of Karma.

Originally Posted by joobz

I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view. He's just posting the real logic behind karma. The lot you are given in life is what you deserve because supposedly you did something to deserve it.

That's the justification of the Caste system in India.

You can justify anything (good or bad) with Karma.

Indeed.
My opinion on karma is described and explained here:
http://www.ukskeptics.com/cms/blaming-the-victim/

While it focusses mainly on new-age healing and those experiences regarding karma, it's pretty much encompassing as regards karma in general. It's a very dangerous belief.

JoeTheJuggler · 6th March 2009, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Yes the bible does say that. It kinda pulls the rug out from under Karma in this life anyway. Still bad people do invite trouble. People retaliate, they drive recklessly and have wrecks, they get in trouble with the law etc. One particularly bad person I knew in highschool was making a good living as a used car parts junkjard owner. He was sitting in his easy chair and he died while asleep.

But there's abundant anecdotal evidence of the opposite too: bad things happening to good (or at least innocent people), and very good things happening to horribly bad people. At the very least, there's abundant evidence that it there is no natural law that provides justice in this lifetime (and there's no evidence of reincarnation, so I think we can dismiss that nonsense right out).

Before we go looking for an explanation for some phenomenon, I think we'd need to ascertain that the phenomenon exists.

ETA: FWIW, if you wish to make arguments based on Bible passages, there's also Matthew 26:52 which supports your position.

JoeTheJuggler · 6th March 2009, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Ah, the buddha nature!

That is all that kamma is in the strict buddhist interpretation is, negative thoughts, acts, words, intents have negative consequences.

There are other influences as well.

The way the local Zen teacher explains it, the Doctrine of Dependent Origination says that all things arise from causes and conditions (nothing exists independent of everything else, or everything exists in a web of interconnectedness), but karma is sort of equivalent to habits or addiction. The more you do something (including mental habits), the more you're prone to do that thing. (And Dependent Origination says that what you do has consequences.)

But I agree, it's not always put forth as some sort of natural law that ensures justice.

billw · 6th March 2009, 11:44 AM

I think the idea of karma is attractive because of human nature and wishful thinking: we like to believe that the world is a fair and just place, where good and bad people both get what they deserve. Even though we usually learn early in childhood that the world can be unfair and unjust, we still long to see Bernie Madoff lowered slowly into a pit full of starving alligators rather than stay in his penthouse under a plea bargain.

AkuManiMani · 6th March 2009, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

But there's abundant anecdotal evidence of the opposite too: bad things happening to good (or at least innocent people), and very good things happening to horribly bad people. At the very least, there's abundant evidence that it there is no natural law that provides justice in this lifetime (and there's no evidence of reincarnation, so I think we can dismiss that nonsense right out).

Before we go looking for an explanation for some phenomenon, I think we'd need to ascertain that the phenomenon exists.

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
-Ecclesiastes 9:11

Translation: s**t happens.

JoeTheJuggler · 6th March 2009, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by AkuManiMani

Translation: s**t happens.

I agree, but I don't think any Bible passage is evidence. (See my ETA above--must've added it after your reply.)

billw · 6th March 2009, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

I agree, but I don't think any Bible passage is evidence. (See my ETA above--must've added it after your reply.)

I'm just a little devil, quoting scripture for my own purposes

JoeTheJuggler · 6th March 2009, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by billw

I think the idea of karma is attractive because of human nature and wishful thinking: we like to believe that the world is a fair and just place, where good and bad people both get what they deserve.

Yep--sort of like religion as the opiate of the masses. If you think the injustice you're suffering will eventually come to justice because of a law of nature, you don't tend to do difficult things to change your lot.

Really, a heavenly reward is probably attractive for the same reasons as karma.

I also think both models justify the status quo from the opposite point of view. There's no need to pity the poor or unfortunate, because they either deserve it for something they did in the past life or because their condition is evidence that they are not among the elect (for salvation).

Safe-Keeper · 6th March 2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view.

Someone may want to PM her saying that, she may have left this thread in disgust.

Miss_Kitt · 6th March 2009, 12:33 PM

I think it was Robert Heinlein who said, "The race goes not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong--but that's the way to place your bets."

Setting aside the multi-life sort of karma, I do think that over time "what goes around, comes around" and if you're a jerk, or a thief, or abusive, or someone who uses people, the day will come when your choices will come back to haunt you. Eventually, the law of averages will catch up to you. If you drive recklessly (or impaired), sooner or later you'll be in a collision; if you're a bully, you won't have friends, coworkers, or kids that like you; if you are looking for someone to "take care of you" without you taking care of them, you're going to end up all alone when you need help the most.

Being a parent is really good for my 'karma', because I want to model for her being a good person. That motivates me to be kinder and more generous than I used to be, I think. Growing up (I'm now in my prime) has helped, too. Life is hard, dammit! Be gentle to those around you, you don't know what is going on in their lives.

Just my thoughts, MK

quarky · 6th March 2009, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by joobz

I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view. He's just posting the real logic behind karma. The lot you are given in life is what you deserve because supposedly you did something to deserve it.

That's the justification of the Caste system in India.

You can justify anything (good or bad) with Karma.

Thank you, joobz. That was where I was coming from.

theMark · 6th March 2009, 04:09 PM

Yes, karma sure is an elusive thing. Sometimes it seems plain obvious, sometimes it hides, sometimes it blends into the background like ... a chameleon! A "karma chameleon", maybe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e8WxDd3Ul8

Oh come on, nobody else though of this? Whenever I read "karma", I can't shake that tune. It's like higher-order synesthesia, only I find the "aesthesia" part sort of lacking...

quarky · 6th March 2009, 04:22 PM

Boy George had to work as a garbage man, for karmic reasons.

Regular garbage men might find this confusing.

Tsukasa Buddha · 6th March 2009, 04:36 PM

There are fifty different views on Karma, so I can't say for sure if works

.

joobz · 6th March 2009, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

There are fifty different views on Karma, so I can't say for sure if works

.

Do you know any ways to leave a lover?

slingblade · 6th March 2009, 08:41 PM

Normally, I'd say I was sorry for misunderstanding. Nothing personal, really, but I'm tired of saying sorry.

Don't make witty remarks when the subject is that serious. Say what you have to say plainly, so women like me don't flinch, duck, lash out, and then have to apologize.

Sorry, but I'm so tired of saying I'm sorry.

Roma · 6th March 2009, 10:51 PM

I hope Karma is real,
so many people have done so many really nice things for me knowing that I couldn't pay them.
I hope they get a lot of good Karma points.

quarky · 7th March 2009, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by slingblade

Normally, I'd say I was sorry for misunderstanding. Nothing personal, really, but I'm tired of saying sorry.

Don't make witty remarks when the subject is that serious. Say what you have to say plainly, so women like me don't flinch, duck, lash out, and then have to apologize.

Sorry, but I'm so tired of saying I'm sorry.

No need to apologize, if that was about my post. I need to learn to be more sensitive. I'm mostly a nice guy.

Dancing David · 7th March 2009, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by quarky

The bully beats his wife because she deserves the beatings on account of being a beater in her previous life. That's the beauty of Karma.

Uh huh, that is the hindu rationalization for the caste system. But there are other forms of karma.

6th March 2009, 06:56 AM	#1
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Karma seems to work. I'm 62 years old and four years ago I went to my last highschool reunion. Most of the tough guys were missing. Many had died and others had been injured. One particularly bad person I knew had actually lost both of his feet in a motorcycle accident. Are people with a mean disposition more likely to have accidents than a normal person? Also many of these bully types had done jail time and this includes one person who had beat his wife to death and was in prison for life.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

6th March 2009, 07:00 AM	#2
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	If karma worked, I wouldn't be homeless, and an alcoholic wife-abuser wouldn't be the richest man in town.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

6th March 2009, 07:10 AM	#3
theMark Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Stuck in Old Europe and the 80s, where the music is better than today Posts: 310	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 I'm 62 years old and four years ago I went to my last highschool reunion. Most of the tough guys were missing. Many had died and others had been injured. One particularly bad person I knew had actually lost both of his feet in a motorcycle accident. Are people with a mean disposition more likely to have accidents than a normal person? Also many of these bully types had done jail time and this includes one person who had beat his wife to death and was in prison for life. Well - isn't that just "actions and consequences"? People playing it rough are more likely to either hurt themselves or get hurt. If "driving a motorcycle" says "tough", then "tough" comes with a higher chance of being involved in a motorcycle crash than someone who does NOT drive a motorcycle... "Karma" doesn't seem to apply in the financial world or in politics, either - a politician needs to be of average intellect, able to compromise on anything, ruthlessly self-serving and willing to play enemies and friends better than they play him. Because anyone too introspective will drop from the radar in the blink of an eye... Just quoting an opinion piece here, of course
	__________________ ^{"I may not know what's right / but I know this can't be it. I'm never satisfied / when the answers could be real." Title: Unsatisfaction - by: Men Without Hats}

6th March 2009, 07:18 AM	#4
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	I thought Karma was a concept that involved many lifetimes, as in reincarnation. If so, there's no judging it, unless you pretend to see the big picture. For revenge, one must assume the pricks today will have a nasty life next time around.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

6th March 2009, 07:20 AM	#6
Gitro New Blood Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4	Well, have you ever thought that, because of the way they act, it leads them to do things that are high-risk/illegal? As in, the bully type beats his wife because he is a bully, and winds up in jail for it.
Gitro New Blood Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4

6th March 2009, 07:18 AM	#5
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,124	Bullies and other people who do bad things frequently do them because they're living rough lives. They're at-risk people, with bad upbringing or whatever. Which is why the two -being 'tough' and ending up the victim of all kinds of bad things- go together.

6th March 2009, 08:10 AM	#7
Freethinker Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 1,358	So that explains why one of the nicest guys I know lost his only child in a car accident 2 years ago and is now dying of an incurable but excruciatingly slow, painful disease. Church deacon, founded a drug free club for kids, tireless volunteer, great co-worker and all-around nice guy.
	__________________ "Did it indeed seem probable, as he had once overheard Dunbar ask, that the answers to the riddles of creation would be supplied by people too ignorant to understand the mechanics of rainfall? Had Almighty God, in all His infinite wisdom, really been afraid that men six thousand years ago would succeed in building a tower to heaven?" Thoughts of the Chaplain in Heller's Catch-22

6th March 2009, 08:12 AM	#8
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	The bully beats his wife because she deserves the beatings on account of being a beater in her previous life. That's the beauty of Karma.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

6th March 2009, 08:35 AM	#9
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,738	Originally Posted by theMark Well - isn't that just "actions and consequences"? Ah, the buddha nature! That is all that kamma is in the strict buddhist interpretation is, negative thoughts, acts, words, intents have negative consequences. There are other influences as well.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

6th March 2009, 08:49 AM	#10
yy2bggggs Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,436	So, are we talking the rational form of karma, where your actions simply have consequences, or the irrational new agey kind of mystic balancing force? Regardless, what seemed to be observed by the OP is slightly distinct. It's more of an observation that dispositions have consequences, which may in addition be inflated by confirmation bias.
yy2bggggs Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,436

6th March 2009, 09:05 AM	#11
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Originally Posted by Freethinker So that explains why one of the nicest guys I know lost his only child in a car accident 2 years ago and is now dying of an incurable but excruciatingly slow, painful disease. Church deacon, founded a drug free club for kids, tireless volunteer, great co-worker and all-around nice guy. I don't really believe in karma. I just wanted a discussion. Horrilbe things happen to great people all the time. I'd also like to add in the case of most bullys like the other posters say they live lives that invite disaster and retaliation. I'll add this. While most Bullys have self induced problems basically they never get punished as much as they deserve. A lady at writing.com told me that a man who molested her ended up on the street where he died a hopeless alcoholic. However she didn't tell the police what he had done. He simply imploaded in a slow karmic self induced disaster. Sorry about your friend.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

6th March 2009, 09:10 AM	#12
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Originally Posted by quarky The bully beats his wife because she deserves the beatings on account of being a beater in her previous life. That's the beauty of Karma. Excuse me?
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

6th March 2009, 09:58 AM	#13
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,833	I don't think one's subjective observation at a high school reunion even rises to the level of evidence that there is even something going on in need of explanation. (Frankly, I doubt very much that high school bullies die young. I suspect many bullies go on to lead very successful lives.) I think trying to give rational explanations for why bullies don't live long is rather like trying to give rational explanations for the unusual number of disappearances of planes and ships in the Bermuda Triangle . . .with out first verifying that there is an unusual number of such disappearances.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

6th March 2009, 10:04 AM	#14
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,833	Originally Posted by yy2bggggs So, are we talking the rational form of karma, where your actions simply have consequences, or the irrational new agey kind of mystic balancing force? From the OP, I'd say he's talking bout the latter--some sort of cosmic justice. Quote: Regardless, what seemed to be observed by the OP is slightly distinct. It's more of an observation that dispositions have consequences, which may in addition be inflated by confirmation bias. I don't think it rises even to that level. It could be ALL bias and no observation of any real consequences. It could be that all the very meek and quiet people, who also failed to show up because they came to bad ends, just weren't memorable enough for their absence to be noticeable. I wonder how flexible the definition of who is a bully and who isn't was before going to the reunion. (For that matter--are there really bullies in high school? I had 400 people in my class, and I can't think of anyone I'd label a "bully".)
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

6th March 2009, 10:09 AM	#15
Tanstaafl Unindicted Co-conspirator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 5,622	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler I wonder how flexible the definition of who is a bully and who isn't was before going to the reunion. (For that matter--are there really bullies in high school? I had 400 people in my class, and I can't think of anyone I'd label a "bully".) Well, all I can say is I wish I went to your school instead of mine.
	__________________ To forgive is human, to condemn for eternity is divine. -- AudioFreak Truth is where evidence comes from, not where belief leads to. --yy2bggggs Expelled exposed! Sylvia Browne

6th March 2009, 10:09 AM	#16
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,505	Originally Posted by slingblade Excuse me? I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view. He's just posting the real logic behind karma. The lot you are given in life is what you deserve because supposedly you did something to deserve it. That's the justification of the Caste system in India. You can justify anything (good or bad) with Karma.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

6th March 2009, 10:12 AM	#17
billw Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Far North Glendale Posts: 463	All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness. Ecclesiastes 7:15, KJV
	__________________ I may be going to hell in a bucket But at least I'm enjoying the ride. -- John Perry Barlow

6th March 2009, 10:27 AM	#18
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Originally Posted by Tanstaafl Well, all I can say is I wish I went to your school instead of mine. Me too. I went to a school where there was a lot of poverty. Some of these bullys were victims of abuse themselves although I'll say this. The worst ones were athletes and some were even scholars. These didn't die young but they had been married and dovorced several times and their children didn't love them. They had lost a lot of money on divorce and child support.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

6th March 2009, 10:30 AM	#19
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	"What goes around around, comes around"... but many times on the return trip, you're not there to receive it. For some reason "quid pro quo" was floating around in the old head bone earlier today before arising. What "karma" is Maddof existing on? There's no one/nothing keeping track of goods and bads in any ledger that has to be balanced for an even life. Life is hard, then you die. Do unto others as you would have them do to you, because it makes life better for all involved. If only everyone followed that dictum.

6th March 2009, 10:33 AM	#20
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler ... I wonder how flexible the definition of who is a bully and who isn't was before going to the reunion. (For that matter--are there really bullies in high school? I had 400 people in my class, and I can't think of anyone I'd label a "bully".) . I never had a class with more than 15 people at most, before college! One bully in a class with only 5 people once.

6th March 2009, 10:33 AM	#21
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Originally Posted by billw All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickedness. Ecclesiastes 7:15, KJV Yes the bible does say that. It kinda pulls the rug out from under Karma in this life anyway. Still bad people do invite trouble. People retaliate, they drive recklessly and have wrecks, they get in trouble with the law etc. One particularly bad person I knew in highschool was making a good living as a used car parts junkjard owner. He was sitting in his easy chair and he died while asleep.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

6th March 2009, 10:47 AM	#22
chillzero Domestic Godless Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Top of the world, ma! Posts: 15,235	Originally Posted by quarky The bully beats his wife because she deserves the beatings on account of being a beater in her previous life. That's the beauty of Karma. Originally Posted by joobz I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view. He's just posting the real logic behind karma. The lot you are given in life is what you deserve because supposedly you did something to deserve it. That's the justification of the Caste system in India. You can justify anything (good or bad) with Karma. Indeed. My opinion on karma is described and explained here: http://www.ukskeptics.com/cms/blaming-the-victim/ While it focusses mainly on new-age healing and those experiences regarding karma, it's pretty much encompassing as regards karma in general. It's a very dangerous belief.

6th March 2009, 11:32 AM	#23
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,833	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Yes the bible does say that. It kinda pulls the rug out from under Karma in this life anyway. Still bad people do invite trouble. People retaliate, they drive recklessly and have wrecks, they get in trouble with the law etc. One particularly bad person I knew in highschool was making a good living as a used car parts junkjard owner. He was sitting in his easy chair and he died while asleep. But there's abundant anecdotal evidence of the opposite too: bad things happening to good (or at least innocent people), and very good things happening to horribly bad people. At the very least, there's abundant evidence that it there is no natural law that provides justice in this lifetime (and there's no evidence of reincarnation, so I think we can dismiss that nonsense right out). Before we go looking for an explanation for some phenomenon, I think we'd need to ascertain that the phenomenon exists. ETA: FWIW, if you wish to make arguments based on Bible passages, there's also Matthew 26:52 which supports your position.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 6th March 2009 at 11:47 AM.

6th March 2009, 11:35 AM	#24
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,833	Originally Posted by Dancing David Ah, the buddha nature! That is all that kamma is in the strict buddhist interpretation is, negative thoughts, acts, words, intents have negative consequences. There are other influences as well. The way the local Zen teacher explains it, the Doctrine of Dependent Origination says that all things arise from causes and conditions (nothing exists independent of everything else, or everything exists in a web of interconnectedness), but karma is sort of equivalent to habits or addiction. The more you do something (including mental habits), the more you're prone to do that thing. (And Dependent Origination says that what you do has consequences.) But I agree, it's not always put forth as some sort of natural law that ensures justice.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

6th March 2009, 11:44 AM	#25
billw Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Far North Glendale Posts: 463	I think the idea of karma is attractive because of human nature and wishful thinking: we like to believe that the world is a fair and just place, where good and bad people both get what they deserve. Even though we usually learn early in childhood that the world can be unfair and unjust, we still long to see Bernie Madoff lowered slowly into a pit full of starving alligators rather than stay in his penthouse under a plea bargain.
	__________________ I may be going to hell in a bucket But at least I'm enjoying the ride. -- John Perry Barlow

6th March 2009, 11:47 AM	#26
AkuManiMani Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: On the crumbly edge of Is and Maybe Posts: 3,089	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler But there's abundant anecdotal evidence of the opposite too: bad things happening to good (or at least innocent people), and very good things happening to horribly bad people. At the very least, there's abundant evidence that it there is no natural law that provides justice in this lifetime (and there's no evidence of reincarnation, so I think we can dismiss that nonsense right out). Before we go looking for an explanation for some phenomenon, I think we'd need to ascertain that the phenomenon exists. I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. -Ecclesiastes 9:11 Translation: s**t happens.
	__________________ "Better is a poor and a wise child than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished." Last edited by AkuManiMani; 6th March 2009 at 11:48 AM.

6th March 2009, 11:49 AM	#27
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,833	Originally Posted by AkuManiMani Translation: s**t happens. I agree, but I don't think any Bible passage is evidence. (See my ETA above--must've added it after your reply.)
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

6th March 2009, 11:56 AM	#28
billw Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Far North Glendale Posts: 463	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler I agree, but I don't think any Bible passage is evidence. (See my ETA above--must've added it after your reply.) I'm just a little devil, quoting scripture for my own purposes
	__________________ I may be going to hell in a bucket But at least I'm enjoying the ride. -- John Perry Barlow

6th March 2009, 11:57 AM	#29
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,833	Originally Posted by billw I think the idea of karma is attractive because of human nature and wishful thinking: we like to believe that the world is a fair and just place, where good and bad people both get what they deserve. Yep--sort of like religion as the opiate of the masses. If you think the injustice you're suffering will eventually come to justice because of a law of nature, you don't tend to do difficult things to change your lot. Really, a heavenly reward is probably attractive for the same reasons as karma. I also think both models justify the status quo from the opposite point of view. There's no need to pity the poor or unfortunate, because they either deserve it for something they did in the past life or because their condition is evidence that they are not among the elect (for salvation).
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

6th March 2009, 12:06 PM	#30
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,124	Quote: I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view. Someone may want to PM her saying that, she may have left this thread in disgust.

6th March 2009, 12:33 PM	#31
Miss_Kitt Zombie Horse of Homeopathy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Lesser Seattle Posts: 3,632	I think it was Robert Heinlein who said, "The race goes not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong--but that's the way to place your bets." Setting aside the multi-life sort of karma, I do think that over time "what goes around, comes around" and if you're a jerk, or a thief, or abusive, or someone who uses people, the day will come when your choices will come back to haunt you. Eventually, the law of averages will catch up to you. If you drive recklessly (or impaired), sooner or later you'll be in a collision; if you're a bully, you won't have friends, coworkers, or kids that like you; if you are looking for someone to "take care of you" without you taking care of them, you're going to end up all alone when you need help the most. Being a parent is really good for my 'karma', because I want to model for her being a good person. That motivates me to be kinder and more generous than I used to be, I think. Growing up (I'm now in my prime) has helped, too. Life is hard, dammit! Be gentle to those around you, you don't know what is going on in their lives. Just my thoughts, MK
	__________________ It's much better to live an honest life than a delusional one -- desertgal Magic thinking is a lead personal floatation device. It looks really reassuring, but it will drag you down--whatthebutlersaw

6th March 2009, 04:07 PM	#32
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Originally Posted by joobz I don't think quarky is agreeing with the view. He's just posting the real logic behind karma. The lot you are given in life is what you deserve because supposedly you did something to deserve it. That's the justification of the Caste system in India. You can justify anything (good or bad) with Karma. Thank you, joobz. That was where I was coming from.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

6th March 2009, 04:09 PM	#33
theMark Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Stuck in Old Europe and the 80s, where the music is better than today Posts: 310	Yes, karma sure is an elusive thing. Sometimes it seems plain obvious, sometimes it hides, sometimes it blends into the background like ... a chameleon! A "karma chameleon", maybe? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e8WxDd3Ul8 Oh come on, nobody else though of this? Whenever I read "karma", I can't shake that tune. It's like higher-order synesthesia, only I find the "aesthesia" part sort of lacking...
	__________________ ^{"I may not know what's right / but I know this can't be it. I'm never satisfied / when the answers could be real." Title: Unsatisfaction - by: Men Without Hats}

6th March 2009, 04:22 PM	#34
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Boy George had to work as a garbage man, for karmic reasons. Regular garbage men might find this confusing.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

6th March 2009, 04:36 PM	#35
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,926	There are fifty different views on Karma, so I can't say for sure if works .
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn