Merged: Memory of Water Proven

[Yuri Nalyssus]

Originally Posted by technoextreme

Ahhh yes. I see you've read the same Nature paper that I have.

I'm in a bit of a debate about the Montagnier paper at the moment (seems like it's doing the homeo rounds at the moment) - do you have a reference for the nature paper you are referring to?

Yuri

[quarky]

Originally Posted by Tatyana

Anthroposophy gathering = awesome hippy food.




They also make nice furniture.

You got that right!
Good music, too.

Forgive me though...3 days ago, I accidentally drank a cup of water that had traces of coffee in it.

Naturally, I'm speeding my ass off.

And looking for some serious homeopathic downers.

[Frinkiak7]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Here you go.

Quote:
In the autumn of 1997, while facilitating a clinical workshop in San Diego for North American students of the School of Homœopathy, I was approached by Chris Kurtz, then on our distance learning programme and just completing his PhD at the University of San Diego, offering to bring me a vial containing anti-matter. "You cannot be serious!" I exclaimed. "Quite serious." he retorted, proceeding to edify me. Naturally, I said, "Yes."

In February 1998 we initiated a formal proving of positronium at the School of Homœopathy. The stuff with which our proving was conducted was made by Chris Kurz, as I have written, in the summer of 1997. Ethanol in a vial was exposed to the radiation of decaying positronium - approximately 1,000,000,000 annihilation events being captured over a 24 hour period. This was run up to the thirtieth centesimal at Helios Homœopathic Pharmacy. This was the proving potency.

Rolfe.

Heh. Heh heh. Ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha!

AHHHHHHHHHH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Sorry. I just love science fiction.

[Yuri Nalyssus]

Originally Posted by quarky

Forgive me though...3 days ago, I accidentally drank a cup of water that had traces of coffee in it.

I know how you feel, I miss British rail canteens too

Yuri

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Here you go.




Rolfe.

Why are they giving that to homeopaths?
I know several physicists who would pay untold millions or more for even the tinyest amount of that stuff. Hell, they'd sell their whole family into slavery and burn down orphanages if that was what it took.

Some things just hurt your brain....

[Toke]

Funny they do not mention a trip to Europe. CERN is producing antimatter, and is able to store it for tens of seconds. That would be the place to go.

[Prometheus]

AFAIK Positronium decays in nanoseconds, so that grad student must have run quite a sprint from the lab over to the homeopathy 'school'.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Why are they giving that to homeopaths?
I know several physicists who would pay untold millions or more for even the tinyest amount of that stuff. Hell, they'd sell their whole family into slavery and burn down orphanages if that was what it took.

Some things just hurt your brain....

Never mind the"positronium", if homoeopathic remedies actually had any physiological effect beyond the effect of the carrier material, the stampede to figure out what was going on would make the race to crack the genetic code look like an amble in the park.

The fact that what we have is Roy, Rey and Ennis probably says it all.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

must give Xanta this though: She takes more flak to chase off than the average.

She seems to have vanished for now, though.

These papers she keeps spamming aren't so new now though. I wonder when the next existential bomb will be dropped?

Rolfe.

[Helen]

I have just read a little more on the site Rolfe linked to, for some reason I couldn't get past the headlines yesterday. It appears that the blood and feather of the trained Peregrine Falcon was used to cure claustrophobia. Cause a trained falcon is kept in darkness and restrained, you see. Obvious, no? The homeopath in question had even written a poem to illustrate this point. I'm still shuddering.

And I do realize that you are all quite aware of how utterly nonsensical all this is, but it is all new to me, and I'm struggling; it's quite hard to believe that this is for real.

So can I please ask a few very basic questions?

The provings, that is the extent of testing that is done, is that right? And it consists of giving a number of healthy people blood and feathers of a falcon, for instance, and then looking at them, and talking to them, to see what the effect seems to be?

Symptoms of diseases are good and should be encouraged, if I understand it correctly, since they are signs of the body fighting back. Therefore the cure should induce similar symptoms. So if my sinuses were clogged, for instance, and I had a headache as a result of that, I would be given something that gives me even more of a headache, and this would cure me, since it would encourage my body to fight the illness even harder. Is this how it is supposed to work?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Helen

The provings, that is the extent of testing that is done, is that right? And it consists of giving a number of healthy people blood and feathers of a falcon, for instance, and then looking at them, and talking to them, to see what the effect seems to be?

No, while homoeopaths often give the impression that substances are 'proved' using material doses, they are in fact proved as diluted remedies, generally so dilute that none of the original material remains. See, for example, Hahnemann's Organon, aphorism 128, in which he decrees proving remedies at 30C, or for a more recent example, Kayne: Homeopathic pharmacy: theory and practice (2 ed. 2006), p. 53.

They are given a remedy prepared from the feathers, or whatever. Then they record all of their feelings and impressions over the next couple of weeks, and the homoeopath (who knows what the remedy was) chooses the ones that fit the idea of the remedy.

[Aepervius]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Try this one. If you dare.

Rolfe.

It is a joke, isn't it ? Poe's law for homeopathy ?

I mean positronium proving ? Where they got enough of that ?

ETA

Quote:

Pharmaceutical Preparation

The homeopathic remedy "Positronium" was prepared using positrons from a Na-22 source, which were passed through a nitrogen gas cell to form postronium by capturing electrons off the nitrogen atoms. The resulting positronium beam then impinged on a metal surface, where the positronium atoms decayed, giving off the characteristic 511 keV radiation. A glass vial filled with 96% ethanol was exposed to this radiation for 24 hours and then potentized to 30C by the Helios Homœopathic Pharmacy. The strength of the positronium beam was approximately 10 million positronium atoms per second. A total of approximately 10^9 (1.000.000.000) annihilation events were captured by the glass via

It isn't positronium proving per see, it would HX/Gamma ray proving, as this is what was captured by the ethanol (511 KeV radiation bathing the ethanol). None of the positronium was inside the ethanol.

[Helen]

Originally Posted by Mojo

No, while homoeopaths often give the impression that substances are 'proved' using material doses, they are in fact proved as diluted remedies, generally so dilute that none of the original material remains. See, for example, Hahnemann's Organon, aphorism 128, in which he decrees proving remedies at 30C, or for a more recent example, Kayne: Homeopathic pharmacy: theory and practice (2 ed. 2006), p. 53.

They are given a remedy prepared from the feathers, or whatever. Then they record all of their feelings and impressions over the next couple of weeks, and the homoeopath (who knows what the remedy was) chooses the ones that fit the idea of the remedy.

So it's even worse than I thought, then...

And what was the positronium supposed to cure? Feeling non-existent?

[quarky]

Originally Posted by Helen

I have just read a little more on the site Rolfe linked to, for some reason I couldn't get past the headlines yesterday. It appears that the blood and feather of the trained Peregrine Falcon was used to cure claustrophobia. Cause a trained falcon is kept in darkness and restrained, you see. Obvious, no? The homeopath in question had even written a poem to illustrate this point. I'm still shuddering.

And I do realize that you are all quite aware of how utterly nonsensical all this is, but it is all new to me, and I'm struggling; it's quite hard to believe that this is for real.

So can I please ask a few very basic questions?

The provings, that is the extent of testing that is done, is that right? And it consists of giving a number of healthy people blood and feathers of a falcon, for instance, and then looking at them, and talking to them, to see what the effect seems to be?

Symptoms of diseases are good and should be encouraged, if I understand it correctly, since they are signs of the body fighting back. Therefore the cure should induce similar symptoms. So if my sinuses were clogged, for instance, and I had a headache as a result of that, I would be given something that gives me even more of a headache, and this would cure me, since it would encourage my body to fight the illness even harder. Is this how it is supposed to work?

You may be over-thinking it.

Just eat the bloody feathers.

[Helen]

Originally Posted by quarky

You may be over-thinking it.

Just eat the bloody feathers.

Oh alright then, I am a bit claustrophobic after all.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Aepervius

I mean positronium proving ? Where they got enough of that ?

Somewhere on the web there's a proving of the planet Venus.

[Helen]

Originally Posted by Mojo

Somewhere on the web there's a proving of the planet Venus.

What? Really? If people didn't believe in this, and were hurt by it, it would be hilarious! Now it's just disgusting.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by Paul

Wow, just wow, I didn't even consider that they might be so irresponsibly, or criminally, insane as to try some of the things on that page:

blood from dead AIDS patients, heroin, bird blood and feathers, rocks, and antimatter????!!!!

Antimatter is particularly ridiculous, since the life-time of antimatter is .... I don't remember the exact time, but we are talking fractions of a second.

Hans

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Helen

I have just read a little more on the site Rolfe linked to, for some reason I couldn't get past the headlines yesterday. It appears that the blood and feather of the trained Peregrine Falcon was used to cure claustrophobia. Cause a trained falcon is kept in darkness and restrained, you see. Obvious, no? The homeopath in question had even written a poem to illustrate this point. I'm still shuddering.

And I do realize that you are all quite aware of how utterly nonsensical all this is, but it is all new to me, and I'm struggling; it's quite hard to believe that this is for real.

So can I please ask a few very basic questions?

The provings, that is the extent of testing that is done, is that right? And it consists of giving a number of healthy people blood and feathers of a falcon, for instance, and then looking at them, and talking to them, to see what the effect seems to be?

Symptoms of diseases are good and should be encouraged, if I understand it correctly, since they are signs of the body fighting back. Therefore the cure should induce similar symptoms. So if my sinuses were clogged, for instance, and I had a headache as a result of that, I would be given something that gives me even more of a headache, and this would cure me, since it would encourage my body to fight the illness even harder. Is this how it is supposed to work?

As others have pointed out, the provings aren't done on the actual raw substance, but on the remedy produced from the substance. Usually several different potencies will be used, sometimes a low one included (that might have a tiny trace of the raw substance in it), but if it's anything at all dangerous then they'll only use the very dilute "high" potencies.

Hahnemann devised this idiea, as Mojo has referenced, because when he first tried his "like cures like" idea he killed a few people by poisoning them with the raw remedies. He was using things like arsenic and strychnine and sulphuric acid as well as harmless plants. He then decided the provings as well as the treatment worked better using the shaken-up water rather than the actual substance.

And by the way, the poem quoted on that page is an excerpt from a rather fine work by W. B. Yates called The Second Coming. I don't think homoeopaths can write decent poetry either.

Rolfe.

[Helen]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

As others have pointed out, the provings aren't done on the actual raw substance, but on the remedy produced from the substance. Usually several different potencies will be used, sometimes a low one included (that might have a tiny trace of the raw substance in it), but if it's anything at all dangerous then they'll only use the very dilute "high" potencies.

Hahnemann devised this idiea, as Mojo has referenced, because when he first tried his "like cures like" idea he killed a few people by poisoning them with the raw remedies. He was using things like arsenic and strychnine and sulphuric acid as well as harmless plants. He then decided the provings as well as the treatment worked better using the shaken-up water rather than the actual substance.

And by the way, the poem quoted on that page is an excerpt from a rather fine work by W. B. Yates called The Second Coming. I don't think homoeopaths can write decent poetry either.

Rolfe.

Oh no, oh no no, not that one, I know and love The second coming, the Mischa person had written a poem all his (her?) own... I'll see if I can find it. No widening gyres there.

[Helen]

Here it is (a gyre here as well, so I was wrong in that). I particularly like the end.

Falcon and Falconer

By lakeside, amidst violets white and blue,
amongst boulders sculpted into forms of sleepers
in love's embrace, hunted we two,
knowing that our past held a hidden clue
yet to bear fruit or be harvested by autumn reapers.

As seed is cast into fertile earth by careless breezes
or by sowers' hands, so shall our compound of love
raise flowers, lake, boulder, swan and dove
and make a nature which embraces what pleases,
for as seeds root below they blossom above.

We sanctify the soil and soul which dwells within
by our actions. So let us take care
to be full of heart and not to act upon whim,
or profanely speak when we intend to hymn,
or set a poisoned trap or baited snare.

We may be tormented by our hunger, by sin
Which burns, desire which turns in falcon's gyre
upon up-draft above the raging fire
which we have lit. Our terror is that conflagration
consume the world and become our funeral pyre!

Then falcon would have no returning
unless transformed to phoenix it aspire out of ashes
its nest to make! We must take heed of motives
if we are not to cinder in the burning
when flashing storms crash upon the lake

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Antimatter is particularly ridiculous, since the life-time of antimatter is .... I don't remember the exact time, but we are talking fractions of a second.

Is it longer or shorter than the lifespan of the hydrogen bonds that homoeopaths have proposed as a mechanism for water memory?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by Mojo

Is it longer or shorter than the lifespan of the hydrogen bonds that homoeopaths have proposed as a mechanism for water memory?

Shorter, I think. The hydrogen bonds can be quite long-lived, under the right conditions. The right conditions include super-cooled water, and areas under surface tension. Nobody denies that water is a surprisingly complex substance, still ......


Hans

[Mojo]

The estimates I've seen are in the order of picoseconds.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by Mojo

The estimates I've seen are in the order of picoseconds.

... and I was led to believe only the reckoning of god was swift!

[Yuri Nalyssus]

Originally Posted by Helen

And what was the positronium supposed to cure?

A warp core breach obviously.

Yuri

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Helen

Here it is (a gyre here as well, so I was wrong in that). I particularly like the end.

Falcon and Falconer

By lakeside, amidst violets white and blue,
[snip utterly forgettable doggerel]

Ah, sorry. I didn't look back at the page, and I hadn't remembered that bit.

Rolfe.

[malbui]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

And by the way, the poem quoted on that page is an excerpt from a rather fine work by W. B. Yates called The Second Coming. I don't think homoeopaths can write decent poetry either.

Oooh, I like a bit of old Double-U B. He had a lot of strange ideas but he could turn a phrase. It is Yeats, though, btw.

[Helen]

Originally Posted by malbui

Oooh, I like a bit of old Double-U B. He had a lot of strange ideas but he could turn a phrase. It is Yeats, though, btw.

As do I. Less fond of the poetry of Misha Norland, who seems to write poetry about all the provings (strange choice of words, that. Symptomatic? ). There is a poem about positronium as well, for those with stout hearts and strong minds.

Another question: On this site, all the provers seem to be their students. is that common, that the provers are people in the business, so to speak?

Sorry for all the very basic questions, but I'm fascinated.

[Helen]

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

A warp core breach obviously.

Yuri

Ah yes, I see. it all makes sense now!

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Helen

As do I. Less fond of the poetry of Misha Norland, who seems to write poetry about all the provings (strange choice of words, that. Symptomatic? ).

It derives from the German "Prüfung" meaning "test" apparently, the Prophet Hahnemann having been German.

See also the English usage in "the exception proves the rule", which means that rules are tested by exceptional curcumstances, not (as it generally seems to be used to mean) that an exception to a rule means the rule is true.

[Myriad]

Here are some more provings I'd like to see:

- Tachyons (cures regrets about the past?)

- NAND gates (for clear thinking, treats dementia?)

- WIN button from the 1970's (cures obesity?)

- Swear words (pain relief?)

Actually, the last one could represent a whole new breakthrough in homeopathy spinoff products: water that has had various things shouted at it, at very high frequencies and energies. The "proven" success of homeopathy establishes that the water can retain memory of the words, and various traditions of water blessed by incantation (e.g. holy water) gives the idea mythic resonance. Add some physics babble about microcavitation and sonoluminescence and it can't fail.

This is such a good idea easy money that it's certainly already been done.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Helen]

Originally Posted by Mojo

It derives from the German "Prüfung" meaning "test" apparently, the Prophet Hahnemann having been German.

See also the English usage in "the exception proves the rule", which means that rules are tested by exceptional curcumstances, not (as it generally seems to be used to mean) that an exception to a rule means the rule is true.

Yes, I thought so. I just quite like the fact that it's not called testing, it's called proving...

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Myriad

Actually, the last one could represent a whole new breakthrough in homeopathy spinoff products: water that has had various things shouted at it, at very high frequencies and energies. The "proven" success of homeopathy establishes that the water can retain memory of the words, and various traditions of water blessed by incantation (e.g. holy water) gives the idea mythic resonance. Add some physics babble about microcavitation and sonoluminescence and it can't fail.

This is such a good idea easy money that it's certainly already been done.

There's a remedy making machine somewhere out there on the web that is claimed to produce a specific remedy if you say what is wrong with you into it.

I've also seen claims that remedies can be produced by writing the name of the remedy substance on a piece of paper and putting a bottle of blank pills on top of it.

Apparently remedies produced in this way work just as well as regular homoeopathic remedies.

[Captain_Swoop]

Quote:

There's a remedy making machine somewhere out there on the web that is claimed to produce a specific remedy if you say what is wrong with you into it.

Cocktail Waiter?

[sts60]

Antimatter "proving"? Makes me think of a sort of Laurel and Hardy exchange between a homeopath and his patient:

H: What's the matter with you?
P: Matter.
H: Right. What's the matter with you?
P: Matter!
H: Yes, I said that? So?
P: That's what's the matter with me!
H: What's the matter with you?
... more of the same, and eventually ...
P, H together: Gamma rays!

And the bit about a homeopathic alcohol "[no] hair of the dog" for hangovers has inspired me to try an experimental addition to the state EMS protocols: next time I run a head trauma patient, I'll tap him lightly with my pinky finger. "Cancel the helicopter, the patient's cured!"

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by malbui

It is Yeats, though, btw.

Oops!

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Helen

Yes, I thought so. I just quite like the fact that it's not called testing, it's called proving...

I suppose, even in English, proving does mean testing. It has just acquired the connotations of a successful test.

I've always been amused by noticing, that if you're into German romantic opera, the hero dementing on about the dreadful trials he is enduring sings about "Schwere Prüfung" (see Florestan in Fidelio for example). More prosaically, I think a German school pupil who was complaining about a difficult exam paper would also describe this as a "schwere Prüfung".

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Myriad

This is such a good idea easy money that it's certainly already been done.

As Mojo said, pretty much. They haven't been as imaginative as you though.

What I'm waiting for is the explanation of how homoeopathy works that involves dark matter. Maybe I should write it?

Rolfe.

[Toke]

Originally Posted by Mojo

There's a remedy making machine somewhere out there on the web that is claimed to produce a specific remedy if you say what is wrong with you into it.

I've also seen claims that remedies can be produced by writing the name of the remedy substance on a piece of paper and putting a bottle of blank pills on top of it.

Apparently remedies produced in this way work just as well as regular homoeopathic remedies.

Yes, just when you think it cannot get any sillier they outdo themselves again.

My local supermarket had two adds on the billboard for healing.
One was a clairvoyant offering to connect you to your guardian angel who surely knew what you should do with your life.
The other offered conversational therapy for the same purpose and claimed some psychological degree or other.

The later might be real or at least not too woo.

I just can't help thinking of my childhood home where there were a dictionary of superstition next to a illustrated collection of newspaper adds of 200 years ago. The adds have not changed much, just changed media.

Those machines were very much in fashion 100 years ago in diagnosis version, you just send in some body fluid or other.