The Incredible Shrinking Homeopathy Side Effects

Skeptic · 11th March 2009, 10:46 PM

In two other threads ("Suicide Attempt Failed" and "Memory of Water Proven") I have challanged homeopaths to overdose me.

At first the side effect of overdose -- on the warning label of the medicine (though admittedly not on the specific "homepathic sleeping drops" I took) -- was death: if I take too many of them I must call the poison control center lest I drop dead.

I didn't care, and took the whole bottle. Nothing happened.

Then, a homeopath in those threads told me that of course homeopathic medicine won't kill me, but, if I take a whole series of homeopathic medicines for a month of so per her instructions, it will mess me up pretty bad. "Dare I do it?" she asked.

I said that I don't care, and will do it, and asked her to provide me with the exact details of the homeopathic medicine I need to "mess me up pretty bad".

I then was recommended Sulphur 200C, but warned once more -- I might get sensitive teeth. Oh the horror.

Well, I'm still waiting for her to give me the exact brand, but obviosly once homeopaths find out you just don't care about their dire warnings and will overdose on their powerful nostrums no matter what they say, suddenly the "side effects" begin to magically shrink.

I think this is proof they, deep down, know their stuff doesn't work and actually doesn't cause anything, don't you?

In homeopathy, the wages of overdosing is death -- but after you take taxes out of it all that's left is a bit of a tired feeling, really.

lauwersw · 12th March 2009, 02:54 AM

I would think some do indeed know it doesn't really work, but don't underestimate the power of self-delusion.

That's what they do all the time in the face of other evidence. The best example I think is if one "remedy" doesn't give immediate results, it's not because it actually doesn't work, they just try some other things until they find something that gives the desired results (or at least that's what they think).

skyhand · 12th March 2009, 02:14 PM

I wonder if a mass suicide might be a good way to go? You should be able to get some good press coverage, if enough people take part in it.

blutoski · 12th March 2009, 04:04 PM

Think about whether the homeopaths willing to engage you might not be representative of the profession. Most homeopaths I've discussed this with don't understand why anybody thinks an 'overdose' of homeopathic remedy would be harmful.

I hear it all the time: "Homeopathy is completely safe: no harmful side effects; no risk of overdose."

geni · 12th March 2009, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by blutoski

Think about whether the homeopaths willing to engage you might not be representative of the profession. Most homeopaths I've discussed this with don't understand why anybody thinks an 'overdose' of homeopathic remedy would be harmful.

I hear it all the time: "Homeopathy is completely safe: no harmful side effects; no risk of overdose."

There are various aproaches. For example some will start playing with the lack of a solid definition of a homeopathic dose.

not daSkeptic · 12th March 2009, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by blutoski

... "no risk of overdose."

This is a telling statement, isn't it? An overdose is defined as being subjected to a higher quantity of a medication than recommended. If there's no risk of an overdose, that suggests either 1) the patient is incapable of consuming more than recommended, or 2) there is no dose to begin with. Unless a giant hand is going to pop out of the bottle and slap the patient for taking too many pills, I don't think #1 is an option.

JimBenArm · 12th March 2009, 05:22 PM

Please, Skeptic, if you go, I want to go with you!

I couldn't face life here without you! Even if it means sensitive teeth!

Oh, the huge manatee!

rjh01 · 13th March 2009, 12:15 AM

The main dangers is that the medicine is not 100% homeopathic. It may contain a real dose of something. Suggest first taking two or three pills to see if there are any effects. If not then the risk is small.

Of course who are you trying to convince? Most human beings will know that homeopathic medicine is worthless once it is explained what it is. The rest will never be convinced no matter what.

PixyMisa · 13th March 2009, 01:00 AM

It's all backwards anyway. Not taking a homeopathic remedy should be a fatal overdose.

Steve Knight · 13th March 2009, 03:17 AM

If you should go ahead with this then remember to follow the correct dosage regime and posology recommended by homeopaths, as some here already have, rather than just downing the whole bottle in one go. As noted, most modern homeopaths follow Kent's idea that taking 50 pills at once is the same as taking just one. (Hahnemann might have thought differently, certainly where the sick were concerned he advised against overdosing). Oddly however the recommended amount is often two pills taken together, for reasons I have yet to see explained, given the apparent lack of difference.

ETA: I've just found Rolfe's post where homeopaths give their response to this last point:
http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-28371.html

lauwersw · 13th March 2009, 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by skyhand

I wonder if a mass suicide might be a good way to go? You should be able to get some good press coverage, if enough people take part in it.

Done before in Belgium by SKEPP:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/belgium.html

With very little results, in any way... (meaning nobody got killed, very little got converted). Maybe good for a little awareness.

Mojo · 13th March 2009, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by blutoski

I hear it all the time: "Homeopathy is completely safe: no harmful side effects; no risk of overdose."

The thing is, since homoeopathy relies entirely on the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for its reports of cures, in order to be consistent they should also attribute any adverse events to the homoeopathy.

Quote:

Thirty-one patients described new symptoms (27%)

blutoski · 13th March 2009, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by daSkeptic

This is a telling statement, isn't it? An overdose is defined as being subjected to a higher quantity of a medication than recommended. If there's no risk of an overdose, that suggests either 1) the patient is incapable of consuming more than recommended, or 2) there is no dose to begin with. Unless a giant hand is going to pop out of the bottle and slap the patient for taking too many pills, I don't think #1 is an option.

That's partly true. It's really hard to get an overdose of many substances, so there's little fear of overdose for some modalities, including many conventional medicines. That's pretty much the reason for the distinction between over-the-counter versus prescription.

But I detect more quibbling with terminology than anything else. Most people who say they are worried about an overdose pretty clearly mean they are worried about the harm from an overdose.

In a peculiar way, since homeopathic remedies become more powerful with dilution, taking too much implies less risk, and taking a more diluted amount would be closer to what we call an overdose.

To the point of there being two jokes:

* "New! Now with even less active ingredient!"

and:

* "He forgot to take his remedy yesterday. Since his body was not used to getting such a small amount, he died of an overdose."

blutoski · 13th March 2009, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

The thing is, since homoeopathy relies entirely on the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for its reports of cures, in order to be consistent they should also attribute any adverse events to the homoeopathy.

You'd think.

blutoski · 13th March 2009, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

The main dangers is that the medicine is not 100% homeopathic. It may contain a real dose of something. Suggest first taking two or three pills to see if there are any effects. If not then the risk is small.

Of course who are you trying to convince? Most human beings will know that homeopathic medicine is worthless once it is explained what it is. The rest will never be convinced no matter what.

Yes, this is important. Consumerlab and the FDA have found that adulteration of homeopathic remedies with prescription drugs is too common.

Also: many homeopathic remedies may be non-prescription, but also not serial diluted. Just because somebody's a registered homeopath doesn't mean the particular treatment he's selected for you is traditionally homeopathic in the law of opposites/dilution/succussion sense.

Rolfe · 13th March 2009, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Steve Knight

.... the recommended amount is often two pills taken together, for reasons I have yet to see explained, given the apparent lack of difference.

ETA: I've just found Rolfe's post where homeopaths give their response to this last point:
http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-28371.html

That archive format can be hard to navigate, so here's the actual post.

Quote:

When I was trying that stupid Belladonna proving, I noticed that the bottle (bought in Boots) said on it that two pills should be taken twice daily. I asked at H'pathy what the point of the two-pill instruction was, because most of the posters there were taking the line that a dose was a dose was a dose, irrespective of the number of pills. (Apart from anything else, it's part of the stock homoeopath answer to the "I just scarfed this entire bottle of homoeopathic sleeping pills" stunt.) So, were Boots just trying to double their sales?

I was quite stunned by the reply, that maybe not all the pills in the bottle had been medicated, so taking two doubled your chance of getting a dose. This of course implies diabolical working practices and worse quality control, and frankly I simply don't believe it. Making sure that the entire batch does get medicated is so childishly simple that no manufacturer could possibly be allowing such poor practice. Then of course we got into the argument about how can you quality control a manufacturing process where you can't in any way whatsoever distinguish the finished product from the raw material, and relationships rather deteriorated from that point.

I just pegged the "unmedicated pills" excuse as yet another one from the lexicon of what we blame it on when for some reason the remedy doesn't appear to have done anything. Along with someone having touched the pill, airport security scanners, exposure to the close approach of Mars and drinking a cup of coffee (not to mention taking the contraceptive pill). I never did get an answer to why the twice-daily repetition of the remedy when Hahnemannian practice would seem to prohibit this, but that's a constant battle with these people anyway.

However, the excuse would seem to be completely blown out of the water by this "grafting" stunt. In fact, all Boots would have to do would be to ensure that there were one or two medicated pills in the bottle, and fill up with blanks. Hey, maybe they do that! The more I hear of the range of legitimate ways of producing homoeopathic products, the more of a money-spinner it seems to be.

So, either pills in the same bottle all take on the properties of the medicated ones, and so the grafting stunt is valid, or this doesn't happen, in which case precautions to avoid taking an inadvertently unmedicated pill may be advisable. They can't have it both ways. So which is it?

And they get all huffy when you complain that they themselves are full of internal contradictions!

Rolfe.

Gord_in_Toronto · 13th March 2009, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

That archive format can be hard to navigate, so here's the actual post.

Rolfe.

It really, really, really can't get more ~~funny~~ stupid that this. Can it?

Oh. Wait. Of course it can. Homeopaths are involved.

¹⁰⁰

Badly Shaved Monkey · 13th March 2009, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

The thing is, since homoeopathy relies entirely on the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for its reports of cures, in order to be consistent they should also attribute any adverse events to the homoeopathy.

Can't search for myself with my edge of civilisation phone reception, but you must remember the lunatic provings (Trisha Norland?) where the author comments on the spooky occurrences of car crashes and ship sinkings caused by some stupid middle class idiots swallowing sugar pills in England. One must never under-estimate the depths of superstitious befuddlement to which they have descended.

Rolfe · 13th March 2009, 03:32 PM

Misha Norland.

Rolfe.

Badly Shaved Monkey · 13th March 2009, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Misha Norland.

Rolfe.

Thanks. Any passing member of a higher civilisation should be obliged to sterilise this planet on the evidence of that alone.

Toke · 13th March 2009, 03:52 PM

I am surprised, would have throught the homeopathic condom would be used to treat infertility.

cow_cat · 13th March 2009, 04:19 PM

I've never knowingly taken a homeopathic remedy. Does that mean I've actually taken a fatal overdose of everything?

Gord_in_Toronto · 13th March 2009, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Soma

I've never knowingly taken a homeopathic remedy. Does that mean I've actually taken a fatal overdose of everything?

Yes! And you WILL DIE!Eventually.

Mojo · 14th March 2009, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey

Can't search for myself with my edge of civilisation phone reception, but you must remember the lunatic provings (Trisha Norland?) where the author comments on the spooky occurrences of car crashes and ship sinkings caused by some stupid middle class idiots swallowing sugar pills in England. One must never under-estimate the depths of superstitious befuddlement to which they have descended.

Wasn't that the "shipwreck" proving? I seem to remember it mentioning that there were a number of maritime calamities even before the proving started.

Gord_in_Toronto · 14th March 2009, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Wasn't that the "shipwreck" proving? I seem to remember it mentioning that there were a number of maritime calamities even before the proving started.

Ah. Precog Homeopathy. This the Ultimate Homeopathy - effects from not only infinitely dilute dilutions but from ~~delusions~~ dilutions to be made in the future!

Rolfe · 15th March 2009, 04:56 PM

Lionel Milgrom quotes a report where the patient got better when the homoeopath thought of the correct remedy, before it had even been prescribed.

They'll be able to cure death next.

Rolfe.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 15th March 2009, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Misha Norland.

The radiation produced in the annihilation of Positronium atoms.

Now they are making up elements?

Quote:

Buckyballs or Carbon 60

What in hell does this cure? Pentakis dedocahedronitis?

Quote:

Newly Formed Water

Yeah! Another homeopathic cure for dehydration. Just add water.

Quote:

Lionel Milgrom quotes a report where the patient got better when the homoeopath thought of the correct remedy, before it had even been prescribed.

That's metahomeopathy.

~~ Paul

Here_to_learn · 15th March 2009, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Lionel Milgrom quotes a report where the patient got better when the homoeopath thought of the correct remedy, before it had even been prescribed.

That's metahomeopathy.

~~ Paul

With the clear benefit that the less you think, the better...

Mojo · 16th March 2009, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Lionel Milgrom quotes a report where the patient got better when the homoeopath thought of the correct remedy, before it had even been prescribed.

He's also claimed that there is a vet somewhere in the South-West of England who treats animals by giving the remedies to the owner.

Klimax · 16th March 2009, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Here_to_learn

With the clear benefit that the less you think, the better...

And if there is no thinking,you are cured of all,including money.

Toke · 16th March 2009, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

He's also claimed that there is a vet somewhere in the South-West of England who treats animals by giving the remedies to the owner.

Sounds like a good idea, easier and just as effective.

Gord_in_Toronto · 16th March 2009, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Toke

Sounds like a good idea, easier and just as effective.

The next advancement in homeopathic science: Write the prescription on a piece of paper and hold it up to the phone.

Here_to_learn · 16th March 2009, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

The next advancement in homeopathic science: Write the prescription on a piece of paper and hold it up to the phone.

Would that be something like this?

ETA: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...9&postcount=44
http://improbable.com/2004/10/12/the...of-benveniste/

Toke · 16th March 2009, 12:32 PM

Amacing, what will they think off next?

Gord_in_Toronto · 16th March 2009, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Here_to_learn

Would that be something like this?

ETA: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...9&postcount=44
http://improbable.com/2004/10/12/the...of-benveniste/

I did not believe that my imagination was so good as to invent this idea. I do now remember reading about it -- but my mind must have blocked it.

So. I wonder when the technique will move from the lab into practice. Maybe it is being tested right now?

Here_to_learn · 16th March 2009, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

So. I wonder when the technique will move from the lab into practice. Maybe it is being tested right now?

Of course it is! I'm sure they have that testing running in parallel with all the other research where they actually take into account the criticism from our beloved Anti-homeopathy Illuminati members on this site!

Or maybe they actually have taken that into account, and that's why there's no new research being published and we only get to se the same old stuff over and over again!

HansMustermann · 16th March 2009, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Now they are making up elements?

Positronium actually exists... for an infinitesimally short time. It's the very lightweight atom made of an electron and a positron (anti-electron, if you will).

But the half-life of it is really infinitesimal, so I don't think you can do much more with it than measure stuff in a lab. The most stable version of it barely lasts about a microsecond.

It also decays into gamma-ray photons, so I'm not sure what would make that radiation more special than any other photons of that wavelength.

On the whole, it sounds to me like just about on par with using "quantum" in various scams. It just picks some words from a domain that most people are guaranteed not to understand, so it would make the scam easier.

Mojo · 16th March 2009, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Positronium actually exists... for an infinitesimally short time. It's the very lightweight atom made of an electron and a positron (anti-electron, if you will).

But the half-life of it is really infinitesimal, so I don't think you can do much more with it than measure stuff in a lab. The most stable version of it barely lasts about a microsecond.

That's OK, memories preserved in the structure of liquid water last for less than 50 femtoseconds, and homoeopaths have no trouble using that.

12th March 2009, 02:54 AM	#2
lauwersw Scholar Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 74	I would think some do indeed know it doesn't really work, but don't underestimate the power of self-delusion. That's what they do all the time in the face of other evidence. The best example I think is if one "remedy" doesn't give immediate results, it's not because it actually doesn't work, they just try some other things until they find something that gives the desired results (or at least that's what they think).
lauwersw Scholar Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 74

12th March 2009, 02:14 PM	#3
skyhand Scholar Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 70	I wonder if a mass suicide might be a good way to go? You should be able to get some good press coverage, if enough people take part in it.
skyhand Scholar Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 70

12th March 2009, 04:04 PM	#4
blutoski Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 5,966	Think about whether the homeopaths willing to engage you might not be representative of the profession. Most homeopaths I've discussed this with don't understand why anybody thinks an 'overdose' of homeopathic remedy would be harmful. I hear it all the time: "Homeopathy is completely safe: no harmful side effects; no risk of overdose."
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

12th March 2009, 04:37 PM	#6
not daSkeptic Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,919	Originally Posted by blutoski ... "no risk of overdose." This is a telling statement, isn't it? An overdose is defined as being subjected to a higher quantity of a medication than recommended. If there's no risk of an overdose, that suggests either 1) the patient is incapable of consuming more than recommended, or 2) there is no dose to begin with. Unless a giant hand is going to pop out of the bottle and slap the patient for taking too many pills, I don't think #1 is an option.
	__________________ Skepticism, good. Organized skepticism, bad. Formerly daSkeptic.

12th March 2009, 05:22 PM	#7
JimBenArm Based on a true story! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 12,970	Please, Skeptic, if you go, I want to go with you! I couldn't face life here without you! Even if it means sensitive teeth! Oh, the huge manatee!
	__________________ *"JimBenArm is right"* Hokulele Mom

11th March 2009, 10:46 PM	#1
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	The Incredible Shrinking Homeopathy Side Effects In two other threads ("Suicide Attempt Failed" and "Memory of Water Proven") I have challanged homeopaths to overdose me. At first the side effect of overdose -- on the warning label of the medicine (though admittedly not on the specific "homepathic sleeping drops" I took) -- was death: if I take too many of them I must call the poison control center lest I drop dead. I didn't care, and took the whole bottle. Nothing happened. Then, a homeopath in those threads told me that of course homeopathic medicine won't kill me, but, if I take a whole series of homeopathic medicines for a month of so per her instructions, it will mess me up pretty bad. "Dare I do it?" she asked. I said that I don't care, and will do it, and asked her to provide me with the exact details of the homeopathic medicine I need to "mess me up pretty bad". I then was recommended Sulphur 200C, but warned once more -- I might get sensitive teeth. Oh the horror. Well, I'm still waiting for her to give me the exact brand, but obviosly once homeopaths find out you just don't care about their dire warnings and will overdose on their powerful nostrums no matter what they say, suddenly the "side effects" begin to magically shrink. I think this is proof they, deep down, know their stuff doesn't work and actually doesn't cause anything, don't you? In homeopathy, the wages of overdosing is death -- but after you take taxes out of it all that's left is a bit of a tired feeling, really.

12th March 2009, 04:11 PM	#5
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,557	Originally Posted by blutoski Think about whether the homeopaths willing to engage you might not be representative of the profession. Most homeopaths I've discussed this with don't understand why anybody thinks an 'overdose' of homeopathic remedy would be harmful. I hear it all the time: "Homeopathy is completely safe: no harmful side effects; no risk of overdose." There are various aproaches. For example some will start playing with the lack of a solid definition of a homeopathic dose.

13th March 2009, 12:15 AM	#8
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,172	The main dangers is that the medicine is not 100% homeopathic. It may contain a real dose of something. Suggest first taking two or three pills to see if there are any effects. If not then the risk is small. Of course who are you trying to convince? Most human beings will know that homeopathic medicine is worthless once it is explained what it is. The rest will never be convinced no matter what.

13th March 2009, 01:00 AM	#9
PixyMisa Persnickety Insect Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sunny Munuvia Posts: 14,906	It's all backwards anyway. Not taking a homeopathic remedy should be a fatal overdose.
	__________________ Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO

13th March 2009, 03:17 AM	#10
Steve Knight Student Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 48	If you should go ahead with this then remember to follow the correct dosage regime and posology recommended by homeopaths, as some here already have, rather than just downing the whole bottle in one go. As noted, most modern homeopaths follow Kent's idea that taking 50 pills at once is the same as taking just one. (Hahnemann might have thought differently, certainly where the sick were concerned he advised against overdosing). Oddly however the recommended amount is often two pills taken together, for reasons I have yet to see explained, given the apparent lack of difference. ETA: I've just found Rolfe's post where homeopaths give their response to this last point: http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-28371.html
Steve Knight Student Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 48	__________________ Steve Knight www.zem.demon.co.uk Last edited by Steve Knight; 13th March 2009 at 04:52 AM.

13th March 2009, 03:24 AM	#11
lauwersw Scholar Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 74	Originally Posted by skyhand I wonder if a mass suicide might be a good way to go? You should be able to get some good press coverage, if enough people take part in it. Done before in Belgium by SKEPP: http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/belgium.html With very little results, in any way... (meaning nobody got killed, very little got converted). Maybe good for a little awareness.
lauwersw Scholar Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 74

13th March 2009, 04:55 AM	#12
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,086	Originally Posted by blutoski I hear it all the time: "Homeopathy is completely safe: no harmful side effects; no risk of overdose." The thing is, since homoeopathy relies entirely on the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for its reports of cures, in order to be consistent they should also attribute any adverse events to the homoeopathy. Quote: Thirty-one patients described new symptoms (27%)
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 13th March 2009 at 04:59 AM.

13th March 2009, 08:08 AM	#13
blutoski Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 5,966	Originally Posted by daSkeptic This is a telling statement, isn't it? An overdose is defined as being subjected to a higher quantity of a medication than recommended. If there's no risk of an overdose, that suggests either 1) the patient is incapable of consuming more than recommended, or 2) there is no dose to begin with. Unless a giant hand is going to pop out of the bottle and slap the patient for taking too many pills, I don't think #1 is an option. That's partly true. It's really hard to get an overdose of many substances, so there's little fear of overdose for some modalities, including many conventional medicines. That's pretty much the reason for the distinction between over-the-counter versus prescription. But I detect more quibbling with terminology than anything else. Most people who say they are worried about an overdose pretty clearly mean they are worried about the harm from an overdose. In a peculiar way, since homeopathic remedies become more powerful with dilution, taking too much implies less risk, and taking a more diluted amount would be closer to what we call an overdose. To the point of there being two jokes: * "New! Now with even less active ingredient!" and: * "He forgot to take his remedy yesterday. Since his body was not used to getting such a small amount, he died of an overdose."
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett Last edited by blutoski; 13th March 2009 at 08:12 AM.

13th March 2009, 08:12 AM	#14
blutoski Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 5,966	Originally Posted by Mojo The thing is, since homoeopathy relies entirely on the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for its reports of cures, in order to be consistent they should also attribute any adverse events to the homoeopathy. You'd think.
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

13th March 2009, 08:16 AM	#15
blutoski Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 5,966	Originally Posted by rjh01 The main dangers is that the medicine is not 100% homeopathic. It may contain a real dose of something. Suggest first taking two or three pills to see if there are any effects. If not then the risk is small. Of course who are you trying to convince? Most human beings will know that homeopathic medicine is worthless once it is explained what it is. The rest will never be convinced no matter what. Yes, this is important. Consumerlab and the FDA have found that adulteration of homeopathic remedies with prescription drugs is too common. Also: many homeopathic remedies may be non-prescription, but also not serial diluted. Just because somebody's a registered homeopath doesn't mean the particular treatment he's selected for you is traditionally homeopathic in the law of opposites/dilution/succussion sense.
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

13th March 2009, 09:09 AM	#16
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,320	Originally Posted by Steve Knight .... the recommended amount is often two pills taken together, for reasons I have yet to see explained, given the apparent lack of difference. ETA: I've just found Rolfe's post where homeopaths give their response to this last point: http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-28371.html That archive format can be hard to navigate, so here's the actual post. Quote: When I was trying that stupid Belladonna proving, I noticed that the bottle (bought in Boots) said on it that two pills should be taken twice daily. I asked at H'pathy what the point of the two-pill instruction was, because most of the posters there were taking the line that a dose was a dose was a dose, irrespective of the number of pills. (Apart from anything else, it's part of the stock homoeopath answer to the "I just scarfed this entire bottle of homoeopathic sleeping pills" stunt.) So, were Boots just trying to double their sales? I was quite stunned by the reply, that maybe not all the pills in the bottle had been medicated, so taking two doubled your chance of getting a dose. This of course implies diabolical working practices and worse quality control, and frankly I simply don't believe it. Making sure that the entire batch does get medicated is so childishly simple that no manufacturer could possibly be allowing such poor practice. Then of course we got into the argument about how can you quality control a manufacturing process where you can't in any way whatsoever distinguish the finished product from the raw material, and relationships rather deteriorated from that point. I just pegged the "unmedicated pills" excuse as yet another one from the lexicon of what we blame it on when for some reason the remedy doesn't appear to have done anything. Along with someone having touched the pill, airport security scanners, exposure to the close approach of Mars and drinking a cup of coffee (not to mention taking the contraceptive pill). I never did get an answer to why the twice-daily repetition of the remedy when Hahnemannian practice would seem to prohibit this, but that's a constant battle with these people anyway. However, the excuse would seem to be completely blown out of the water by this "grafting" stunt. In fact, all Boots would have to do would be to ensure that there were one or two medicated pills in the bottle, and fill up with blanks. Hey, maybe they do that! The more I hear of the range of legitimate ways of producing homoeopathic products, the more of a money-spinner it seems to be. So, either pills in the same bottle all take on the properties of the medicated ones, and so the grafting stunt is valid, or this doesn't happen, in which case precautions to avoid taking an inadvertently unmedicated pill may be advisable. They can't have it both ways. So which is it? And they get all huffy when you complain that they themselves are full of internal contradictions! Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

13th March 2009, 12:54 PM	#17
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,415	Originally Posted by Rolfe That archive format can be hard to navigate, so here's the actual post. Rolfe. It really, really, really can't get more ~~funny~~ stupid that this. Can it? Oh. Wait. Of course it can. Homeopaths are involved. ¹⁰⁰
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

13th March 2009, 02:59 PM	#18
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	Originally Posted by Mojo The thing is, since homoeopathy relies entirely on the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for its reports of cures, in order to be consistent they should also attribute any adverse events to the homoeopathy. Can't search for myself with my edge of civilisation phone reception, but you must remember the lunatic provings (Trisha Norland?) where the author comments on the spooky occurrences of car crashes and ship sinkings caused by some stupid middle class idiots swallowing sugar pills in England. One must never under-estimate the depths of superstitious befuddlement to which they have descended.
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

13th March 2009, 03:32 PM	#19
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,320	Misha Norland. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

13th March 2009, 03:38 PM	#20
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	Originally Posted by Rolfe Misha Norland. Rolfe. Thanks. Any passing member of a higher civilisation should be obliged to sterilise this planet on the evidence of that alone.
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

13th March 2009, 03:52 PM	#21
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,600	I am surprised, would have throught the homeopathic condom would be used to treat infertility.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

13th March 2009, 04:19 PM	#22
cow_cat Mr. Parodied Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Between the Sum and the Stars Posts: 957	I've never knowingly taken a homeopathic remedy. Does that mean I've actually taken a fatal overdose of everything?
	__________________ Now that is Scientific Fact. There's no real evidence for it, but it is Scientific Fact. -'Dr' Neil Fox, speaking on brasseye Used to have another username, but I hated it.

13th March 2009, 06:33 PM	#23
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,415	Originally Posted by Soma I've never knowingly taken a homeopathic remedy. Does that mean I've actually taken a fatal overdose of everything? Yes! And you WILL DIE!Eventually.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

14th March 2009, 01:15 PM	#24
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,086	Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey Can't search for myself with my edge of civilisation phone reception, but you must remember the lunatic provings (Trisha Norland?) where the author comments on the spooky occurrences of car crashes and ship sinkings caused by some stupid middle class idiots swallowing sugar pills in England. One must never under-estimate the depths of superstitious befuddlement to which they have descended. Wasn't that the "shipwreck" proving? I seem to remember it mentioning that there were a number of maritime calamities even before the proving started.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

14th March 2009, 06:21 PM	#25
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,415	Originally Posted by Mojo Wasn't that the "shipwreck" proving? I seem to remember it mentioning that there were a number of maritime calamities even before the proving started. Ah. Precog Homeopathy. This the Ultimate Homeopathy - effects from not only infinitely dilute dilutions but from ~~delusions~~ dilutions to be made in the future!
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

15th March 2009, 04:56 PM	#26
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,320	Lionel Milgrom quotes a report where the patient got better when the homoeopath thought of the correct remedy, before it had even been prescribed. They'll be able to cure death next. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

15th March 2009, 05:14 PM	#27
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,592	Originally Posted by Rolfe Misha Norland. The radiation produced in the annihilation of Positronium atoms. Now they are making up elements? Quote: Buckyballs or Carbon 60 What in hell does this cure? Pentakis dedocahedronitis? Quote: Newly Formed Water Yeah! Another homeopathic cure for dehydration. Just add water. Quote: Lionel Milgrom quotes a report where the patient got better when the homoeopath thought of the correct remedy, before it had even been prescribed. That's metahomeopathy. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

15th March 2009, 11:51 PM	#28
Here_to_learn Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 2,043	Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Originally Posted by Rolfe Lionel Milgrom quotes a report where the patient got better when the homoeopath thought of the correct remedy, before it had even been prescribed. That's metahomeopathy. ~~ Paul With the clear benefit that the less you think, the better...

16th March 2009, 01:44 AM	#29
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,086	Originally Posted by Rolfe Lionel Milgrom quotes a report where the patient got better when the homoeopath thought of the correct remedy, before it had even been prescribed. He's also claimed that there is a vet somewhere in the South-West of England who treats animals by giving the remedies to the owner.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

16th March 2009, 05:48 AM	#30
Klimax NWO cyborg (3930K inside) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9 Posts: 7,887	Originally Posted by Here_to_learn With the clear benefit that the less you think, the better... And if there is no thinking,you are cured of all,including money.
	__________________ ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400

16th March 2009, 08:47 AM	#31
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,600	Originally Posted by Mojo He's also claimed that there is a vet somewhere in the South-West of England who treats animals by giving the remedies to the owner. Sounds like a good idea, easier and just as effective.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

16th March 2009, 11:13 AM	#32
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,415	Originally Posted by Toke Sounds like a good idea, easier and just as effective. The next advancement in homeopathic science: Write the prescription on a piece of paper and hold it up to the phone.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

16th March 2009, 12:05 PM	#33
Here_to_learn Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 2,043	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto The next advancement in homeopathic science: Write the prescription on a piece of paper and hold it up to the phone. Would that be something like this? ETA: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...9&postcount=44 http://improbable.com/2004/10/12/the...of-benveniste/
	Last edited by Here_to_learn; 16th March 2009 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Links

16th March 2009, 12:32 PM	#34
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,600	Amacing, what will they think off next?
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

16th March 2009, 01:23 PM	#35
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,415	Originally Posted by Here_to_learn Would that be something like this? ETA: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...9&postcount=44 http://improbable.com/2004/10/12/the...of-benveniste/ I did not believe that my imagination was so good as to invent this idea. I do now remember reading about it -- but my mind must have blocked it. So. I wonder when the technique will move from the lab into practice. Maybe it is being tested right now?
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick