Stupid Europeans

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Quote:

Obama sees the current economic crisis as an opportunity. He has said so openly. And now we know what opportunity he wants to seize. Just as the Depression created the political and psychological conditions for Franklin Roosevelt's transformation of America from laissez-faireism to the beginnings of the welfare state, the current crisis gives Obama the political space to move the still (relatively) modest American welfare state toward European-style social democracy.
In the European Union, government spending has declined slightly, from 48 percent to 47 percent of GDP during the last 10 years. In the U.S., it has shot up from 34 percent to 40 percent. Part of this explosive growth in U.S. government spending reflects the emergency private-sector interventions of a Republican administration. But the clear intent was to make the massive intrusion into the private sector temporary and to retreat as quickly as possible. Obama has radically different ambitions.
The spread between Europe and America in government-controlled GDP has already shrunk from 14 percent to 7 percent. Two terms of Obamaism and the difference will be zero.
Conservatives take a dim view of the regulation-bound, economically sclerotic, socially stagnant, nanny state that is the European Union. Nonetheless, Obama is ascendant and has the personal mandate to take the country where he wishes. He has laid out boldly the Brussels-bound path he wants to take.

[Emphasis mine]
Linky.

Quote:

Europe — sclerotic, bureaucratized and social-democratized – has for decades enjoyed the protection, inventions and security afforded by its more laissez-fair, strapping, and exuberant cousin across the Pond, the United States. America, with its free markets, its market incentives, and its relatively large private sector, has been the engine of global growth. America’s system, based fundamentally on individual risk and responsibility, has been the great incubator of innovations that have become the staples of the modern age — from medical advances, to computers, to the internet and beyond. Around the world, people have benefited in ways beyond measure.
All that energy poured into progress is likely to fade, as America devolves into a nation of carbon-capped civil servants, tending to a much-shrunken private sector, and a growing line of people on the dole.

[Emphasis mine]
Linky.

Quote:

From the poorly designed stimulus bill and vague new financial rescue plan, to the enormous expansion of government spending, taxes and debt somehow permanently strengthening economic growth, the assumptions underlying the president's economic program seem bereft of rigorous analysis and a careful reading of history.
Unfortunately, our history suggests new government programs, however noble the intent, more often wind up delivering less, more slowly, at far higher cost than projected, with potentially damaging unintended consequences. The most recent case, of course, was the government's meddling in the housing market to bring home ownership to low-income families, which became a prime cause of the current economic and financial disaster.
On the growth effects of a large expansion of government, the European social welfare states present a window on our potential future: standards of living permanently 30% lower than ours. Rounding off perceived rough edges of our economic system may well be called for, but a major, perhaps irreversible, step toward a European-style social welfare state with its concomitant long-run economic stagnation is not.

[Emphasis mine]
Linky.



Linky.

In Democracy, Life Expectancy, Freedom of the Press, Smallest Prison Population, Lack of Corruption, Education, Energy Usage, Scientific Literacy, and Quality of Healthcare the United States only once enters the top twenty. The link has where the info came from.

Clearly, we need to get rid of public education, fight against universal healthcare, fight against oppressive election reform and tax systems, etc. just like all those countries above us did!

Stupid Europeans.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

In Democracy, Life Expectancy, Freedom of the Press, Smallest Prison Population, Lack of Corruption, Education, Energy Usage, Scientific Literacy, and Quality of Healthcare the United States only once enters the top twenty. The link has where the info came from.

errr

lol?

I'd agree with the rest, though I wouldn't necessarily say democracy as a whole is a very good thing when it turns into mob rule at the local level as has happened here

I like having democratically elected leaders bound by a constitution that they are too scared to change

[dirtywick]

Ranking Scientific Literacy of the US by the answers to a single question sounds pretty comprehensive, although the Democracy Index is close:

Quote:

As described in the report, the democracy index is a kind of weighted average based on the answers of 60 questions, each one with either two or three permitted alternative answers. Most answers are "experts' assessments"; the report does not indicate what kinds of experts, nor their number, nor whether the experts are employees of The Economist or e.g. independent scholars, nor the nationalities of the experts. Some answers are provided by public opinion surveys from the respective countries. "In the case of countries for which survey results are missing, survey results for similar countries and expert assessments are used in order to fill in gaps."

Well, I'm convinced.



Cute chart though.

[Thunder]

Europeans are not stupid

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

Stupid Europeans.

Were you being deliberately redundant here?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

Freedom of the Press

You're kidding me, right? How exactly did they form this ranking? Because it's nonsense. What other country in the world offers the equivalent of our 1st amendment right? I can't say categorically that there are none, but there sure as hell aren't 40 of them. Which makes me rather suspicious of the ranking mechanism for other factors (like "democracy") which are undoubtedly subjective.

Cell phone usage is an irrelevant metric, and internet speed is tied rather closely to population density, so it doesn't tell us much else. And infant mortality comparisons are deeply flawed, because different countries don't use the same definitions for counting infant mortality. Very early premies who die get counted as miscarriages in many countries when they would be counted as infant deaths in the US.

[Texas]

I thought we, the United States, fought a revolution to be free from the "European" way of life.

[KoihimeNakamura]

No, we didn't. (And I'm sure there's a Declaration of Human Rights.. somewhere.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by Rika

No, we didn't. (And I'm sure there's a Declaration of Human Rights.. somewhere.

So we didn't have a revolution?

[DC]

Originally Posted by Texas

I thought we, the United States, fought a revolution to be free from the "European" way of life.

from the european way of life????

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You're kidding me, right? How exactly did they form this ranking?

Well, it says in the link, as I said.

Quote:

Because it's nonsense. What other country in the world offers the equivalent of our 1st amendment right? I can't say categorically that there are none, but there sure as hell aren't 40 of them. Which makes me rather suspicious of the ranking mechanism for other factors (like "democracy") which are undoubtedly subjective.

Mmm, I'd rather disagree. With the first the actual practice matters more to me. And determining democracy is rather easy, the subjective bit, as noted above, is whether it is good to be very democratic.

Quote:

Cell phone usage is an irrelevant metric, and internet speed is tied rather closely to population density, so it doesn't tell us much else. And infant mortality comparisons are deeply flawed, because different countries don't use the same definitions for counting infant mortality. Very early premies who die get counted as miscarriages in many countries when they would be counted as infant deaths in the US.

Yes, I agree, which is why I didn't bother to point them out.

[KoihimeNakamura]

Originally Posted by Texas

So we didn't have a revolution?

DC got to it first, but it wasn't against the european way of life. It was more because some Americans whined that all of a sudden we had taxes, leading to no taxation without representation (Becuase the Ministry in Britain was full of idiots) ... and yeah. Up to about a few years before the revolution, Americans thought of themselves as British.

Had Britian tried a reasonable policy we could possibly be a Commonwealth state today.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Originally Posted by Texas

I thought we, the United States, fought a revolution to be free from the "European" way of life.

No, it was because we didn't want to pay taxes (to pay for the war that Britain waged to save us, and that everyone else had to pay for) without proper representation (Britain made the lame claim that we were "virtually represented").

And (as I think you were implying with the quotes?) there is no "European" way of life, because there are quite a few different countries there, last I checked. But it happens that quite a few are the evil social democracies that happen to outperform us.

[lionking]

Where's Oliver? He seems to speak for Europeans here.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

I'd agree with the rest, though I wouldn't necessarily say democracy as a whole is a very good thing when it turns into mob rule at the local level as has happened here

I like having democratically elected leaders bound by a constitution that they are too scared to change

And where are the unconstitutional democracies making reckless decisions willy nilly because the unclean commoners have had their way?

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by lionking

Where's Oliver? He seems to speak for Europeans here.

I do hope you mean he THINKS he does. While he occasionally has something interesting to say I'd rather he didn't speak for me.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You're kidding me, right? How exactly did they form this ranking? Because it's nonsense. What other country in the world offers the equivalent of our 1st amendment right? I can't say categorically that there are none, but there sure as hell aren't 40 of them. Which makes me rather suspicious of the ranking mechanism for other factors (like "democracy") which are undoubtedly subjective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Re...nkings_Map.PNG

[lionking]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

I do hope you mean he THINKS he does. While he occasionally has something interesting to say I'd rather he didn't speak for me.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

He's said something interesting?

[DC]

Originally Posted by lionking

Yeah, that's what I meant.

He's said something interesting?

did you ever?

[lionking]

At the expense of mod action, your negative opinion of my posts says more about you than me.

[DC]

Originally Posted by lionking

At the expense of mod action, your negative opinion of my posts says more about you than me.

aah, and i guess your negative oppinion about Oliver's posts tell us everything about Oliver, and not about you?

but back to topic.

[Redtail]

Originally Posted by Texas

I thought we, the United States, fought a revolution to be free from the "European" way of life.

Do teachers (and others) still implore kids to speak "The King's English"?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Texas

I thought we, the United States, fought a revolution to be free from the "European" way of life.

I actually thought the ones who fought during the revolution basically were Europeans themselve.

Anyway: That freedom of press claim is interesting, I also would like to know how they measured freedom of press if the US did rank so badly about it.

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by Oliver

I actually thought the ones who fought during the revolution basically were Europeans themselve.

Anyway: That freedom of press claim is interesting, I also would like to know how they measured freedom of press if the US did rank so badly about it.

Maybe the compleltely polarised bias channels have lowered it for them?

Perhaps Fox is seen as not free? Just a thought.

[Ocelot]

Originally Posted by Redtail

Do teachers (and others) still implore kids to speak "The King's English"?

I've seen a teacher send a player off the rugby field for abusing the Queen's English.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

Quote:

On the growth effects of a large expansion of government, the European social welfare states present a window on our potential future: standards of living permanently 30% lower than ours.

Linky.

"Stupid Europeans" have 25-50 days vacation a year, apart from public holidays. "Stupid Europeans" don't have to work two jobs to make ends meet.

Maybe the Bill Gateses make the US have a 30% higher pro capita income than Europe, but your average working class or middle class Joe (plumber or not) certainly doesn't see it. The real spending power of middle class Americans is lower than in 1980.

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

Linky.

In Democracy, Life Expectancy, Freedom of the Press, Smallest Prison Population, Lack of Corruption, Education, Energy Usage, Scientific Literacy, and Quality of Healthcare the United States only once enters the top twenty. The link has where the info came from.

Clearly, we need to get rid of public education, fight against universal healthcare, fight against oppressive election reform and tax systems, etc. just like all those countries above us did!

(emphasis mine)

I'm always amazed at the cognitive dissonance so many Americans (*) display about UHC. There is a strong denial about how clearly countries with UHC outperform the US in health care. But then, these Americans value their freedoms:
- the freedom of Big Pharma to set arbitrary prices for drugs in Medicare;
- the freedom to pay exorbitant insurance premiums;
- the freedom to go broke because of your hospital bills, a phenomenon that is nearly exclusive to the US.

(*) and I don't mean you, Tsusaka; the sarcasm in your OP is appreciated.

[Sefarst]

Hopefully, one day, we can also achieve the freedom to force other people to pay for our healthcare costs.

[DC]

Originally Posted by Sefarst

Hopefully, one day, we can also achieve the freedom to force other people to pay for our healthcare costs.

we call it solidarity.
we help eachother and try to not let eachother down.

[KoihimeNakamura]

... yes. But Americans value indepndence on that indepdence vs collective responsiblity scale.

So they see it as being forced to pay for someone elses bad health.

(There are obviously other reasons, but just pointing out you're attempting a value argument that won't work)

[Sefarst]

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

we call it solidarity.
we help eachother and try to not let eachother down.

Yes, solidarity. That's why you need laws and the police to force people to do it.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Sefarst

Hopefully, one day, we can also achieve the freedom to force other people to pay for our healthcare costs.

I find this attitude, among other things, repulsive. I also find it odd.

Why on earth would you NOT make sure everyone had healthcare? Would you want people dying because they couldn't afford to pay for a life saving operation? Seriously?

That is what you are advocating here. No matter how you try to spin it, that IS what will happen.

Sorry if this is a derail.

[DC]

Originally Posted by Rika

... yes. But Americans value indepndence on that indepdence vs collective responsiblity scale.

So they see it as being forced to pay for someone elses bad health.

(There are obviously other reasons, but just pointing out you're attempting a value argument that won't work)

i find it iresponsible for a sociaty to have a such a poor healtcare system where people go bankrupt or worse just because they have health problems.

i dont pay for others, i pay to be sure that at any point in my live i get the medical care i need, no mather how my job situation or my financial situation is.

going bankrupt for having healthproblems is not independence, its iresponsible.

my 2 rappen (cent)

[DC]

the very same people that want bring Democracy to all the countrys of the world, wants to bring freedom to everyone in the world, even by war.
dont want to secure they fellow countrymans healthcare.

[Sefarst]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

I find this attitude, among other things, repulsive. I also find it odd.

Why on earth would you NOT make sure everyone had healthcare? Would you want people dying because they couldn't afford to pay for a life saving operation? Seriously?

That is what you are advocating here. No matter how you try to spin it, that IS what will happen.

Sorry if this is a derail.

How can you sleep at night knowing that you have a computer and a house that you could sell and donate the money to some third world country so that people there could afford food/medicine/housing/clothing/etc.? Why on earth would you NOT make sure those people have those things? How can you Europeans sleep at night knowing that there are Americans that can't afford operations because we don't have universal healthcare? Send us your money and save us.

[Sefarst]

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

the very same people that want bring Democracy to all the countrys of the world, wants to bring freedom to everyone in the world, even by war.
dont want to secure they fellow countrymans healthcare.

I'm not saying I'm one of these people, but it would demonstrate consistency of principle. If the American value is freedom, we can extrapolate it to economic freedom as well, i.e. the freedom to decide how and where your money is spent. I don't see a contradiction with a country that values political and religious freedom also valuing economic freedom.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Sefarst

How can you sleep at night knowing that you have a computer and a house that you could sell and donate the money to some third world country so that people there could afford food/medicine/housing/clothing/etc.? Why on earth would you NOT make sure those people have those things? How can you Europeans sleep at night knowing that there are Americans that can't afford operations because we don't have universal healthcare? Send us your money and save us.

Big difference between contributing to the society I live in and selling everything I own. That's a logical fallacy you just used. Tsk tsk.

I find it abhorrent that anyone would advocate refusing to give to people within their own society. After your society is steadied, reach out to others. If I had any money (student, my computer is to enable me to work) I would gladly donate to third world charities and in fact do.

There is no point in reducing oneself to poverty to help those less well off. That isn't what I advocate. Nor is it expedient to simply throw money at something and hope that the problem magically goes away. In order for the third world to be rescued the political system needs to change, and the way aid is distributed needs to change. Donations are good, but you can't think they will stop the problem on their own.

I notice you didn't actually state that you don't advocate the poor being left to die. Hi, my name is Edward and you just killed me (I wasn't even poor).

[DC]

Originally Posted by Sefarst

I'm not saying I'm one of these people, but it would demonstrate consistency of principle. If the American value is freedom, we can extrapolate it to economic freedom as well, i.e. the freedom to decide how and where your money is spent. I don't see a contradiction with a country that values political and religious freedom also valuing economic freedom.

i see your point.
but i think this freedom is not needed in healthcare.
Healthcare is so important and expensive we best take care of it collectively.
i am more free than you. i have the freedom to get healthcare even after loosing my job and running out of money. you dont have that freedom

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

i see your point.
but i think this freedom is not needed in healthcare.
Healthcare is so important and expensive we best take care of it collectively.
i am more free than you. i have the freedom to get healthcare even after loosing my job and running out of money. you dont have that freedom

Oh god. The universe is tearing apart....I agree with DC!

[Sefarst]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Big difference between contributing to the society I live in and selling everything I own. That's a logical fallacy you just used. Tsk tsk.

Wrong. Your actual words were, "Why on earth would you NOT make sure everyone had healthcare? Would you want people dying because they couldn't afford to pay for a life saving operation? Seriously?"

So, make sure everyone has healthcare. Are you NOW saying that you DO want people dying because they couldn't afford to pay for a life saving operation? Or do you only care if they live in your arbitrary geographic location? No logical fallacy necessary to cut through the illogic of your argument.

Quote:

I find it abhorrent that anyone would advocate refusing to give to people within their own society. After your society is steadied, reach out to others. If I had any money (student, my computer is to enable me to work) I would gladly donate to third world charities and in fact do.

I'm a student as well and send money to the Red Cross every 6 months. Universal healthcare is not reaching out to others, it's being forced against your will to put your money into a bureaucratic leaf blower and subsidize the moral hazards of other people.

Quote:

There is no point in reducing oneself to poverty to help those less well off.

Why not? Why aren't you willing to go without your luxuries if it means saving your fellow man?

Quote:

hat isn't what I advocate. Nor is it expedient to simply throw money at something and hope that the problem magically goes away. In order for the third world to be rescued the political system needs to change, and the way aid is distributed needs to change. Donations are good, but you can't think they will stop the problem on their own.

It doesn't even have to be a third world country. Like I said, there are plenty of people in the US who would gladly accept your money. I can give you the names of four or five who would cash your check in a heartbeat.

Quote:

I notice you didn't actually state that you don't advocate the poor being left to die.

Now I'm being judged on what I DIDN'T say? How many poor are you leaving to die around the world right now? You monster.

[DC]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Oh god. The universe is tearing apart....I agree with DC!

OMG its friday the 13th.
realised that when making a huge cross in my calendar

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Sefarst

1. Wrong. Your actual words were, "Why on earth would you NOT make sure everyone had healthcare? Would you want people dying because they couldn't afford to pay for a life saving operation? Seriously?"

So, make sure everyone has healthcare. Are you NOW saying that you DO want people dying because they couldn't afford to pay for a life saving operation? Or do you only care if they live in your arbitrary geographic location? No logical fallacy necessary to cut through the illogic of your argument.



2. I'm a student as well and send money to the Red Cross every 6 months. 3. Universal healthcare is not reaching out to others, it's being forced against your will to put your money into a bureaucratic leaf blower and subsidize the moral hazards of other people.



4. Why not? Why aren't you willing to go without your luxuries if it means saving your fellow man?



It doesn't even have to be a third world country. Like I said, there are plenty of people in the US who would gladly accept your money. I can give you the names of four or five who would cash your check in a heartbeat.



5. Now I'm being judged on what I DIDN'T say? How many poor are you leaving to die around the world right now? You monster.

Good lord alive, really?

My my. Ok, I've numbered your points so I can go through them easily.

1. I was discussing Universal Healthcare. Given that this operates within arbitrary geographical locations assuming that I was referring to the entire world is either monumentally stupid or deliberately dishonest. Nice going.

2. Good for you. I really mean that.

3. Given that the US is the only modernised Western power without a Universal Healthcare system, and that your healthcare standards on the whole lag well behind all of us nations with these "leafblowers" I'd say that it isn't quite as worthless as you seem to state here.

Further, while there are certainly a number of operations and such performed on people with poor lifestyle choices, what error did I make? What did I or my parents do that resulted in me deserving to die because they wouldn't have afforded my healthcare? The link is in my last post, do you need it again?

4. It's pointless, that's why. I'm sure if I sold my computer I could feed a family in Bangladesh for a few weeks or months, or contribute towards the cost of an operation for a American without insurance or something. How does that help in the long run?

5. Nice rhetorical point there. Careful now though, that's not the best method for clear debate.