FREE TAPATALK APP

Beerdoodle · 21st March 2009, 03:50 PM

Ok, I have a friend who is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. He believes all of the stupid Alex Jones crap about the U.S. government being behind the attacks. I can pretty much debunk everything he says. It's kind of ridiculous. However, there is one subject that I can't quite explain, so I am putting it out there for you fellow skeptics to help me out.

He maintains that the attack on the pentagon where flight 77 hit the pentagon on 9/11 was a cover up for a bombing that was set up by the government.

This has the pungent odor of conspiracy bull that will turn one's stomach, but upon doing my own (limited) research about the subject, the bombing theory has a little weight. Google for photographs of the 9/11 pentagon attack and you will not see ANY parts of the plane. The government says that it "disintegrated." Is this even physically possible? Can a plane disintegrate? Wouldn't there be at least some scrap metal or seats or luggage or something left over from the crash? Plus some people say that the pattern of debris when seen from above are consistent with an explosion from in the building, not a crash from outside. I am not a scientist or physicist or anything but thinking rationally I could see where the attack on the pentagon could possibly have been a bomb.

If anybody has done some research on this subject I would love to hear about it. Maybe there is some evidence or solid science that I haven't seen that would really help debunk this theory. This would make a good skeptoid episode.

applecorped · 21st March 2009, 03:54 PM

Ahem. You are joking, right?

applecorped · 21st March 2009, 03:55 PM

Oh, welcome.

Beerdoodle · 21st March 2009, 03:56 PM

No, I am not joking.

applecorped · 21st March 2009, 03:57 PM

In that case I have nothing to offer. Good luck.

Beerdoodle · 21st March 2009, 04:00 PM

I don't believe the government bombed the pentagon, but I just want to know where the friggin' plane is.

applecorped · 21st March 2009, 04:00 PM

????? Really? You not trying hard enough then.

applecorped · 21st March 2009, 04:02 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true

applecorped · 21st March 2009, 04:03 PM

As coroner, responsible for returning human remains, Miller has been forced to share with the families information that is unimaginable. As he clinically recounts to them, holding back very few details, the 33 passengers, seven crew and four hijackers together weighed roughly 7,000 pounds. They were essentially cremated together upon impact. Hundreds of searchers who climbed the hemlocks and combed the woods for weeks were able to find about 1,500 mostly scorched samples of human tissue totaling less than 600 pounds, or about 8 percent of the total.

Beerdoodle · 21st March 2009, 04:11 PM

Ok, that almost helps. That link is about flight 93, the one that people prevented from crashing into a building and the passengers took over the hijackers and crashed the plane in the woods, killing only those on board. Flight 77 is the one that hit the pentagon. I need more info about that plane. But thanks for the link, that was a good article.

stateofgrace · 21st March 2009, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

Ok, that almost helps. That link is about flight 93, the one that people prevented from crashing into a building and the passengers took over the hijackers and crashed the plane in the woods, killing only those on board. Flight 77 is the one that hit the pentagon. I need more info about that plane. But thanks for the link, that was a good article.

Maybe you should look here.

http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18

Or maybe this thread should be moved here

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64

Regards stateofgrace.

Locknar · 21st March 2009, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

This has the pungent odor of conspiracy bull that will turn one's stomach, <snip>

Actually, the odor was JPL (ie. jet fuel)

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

The government says that it "disintegrated." Is this even physically possible? Can a plane disintegrate?

Yes.

ETA: The crash site is/was consistent with other "nose first" head on type impacts.

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

Plus some people say that the pattern of debris when seen from above are consistent with an explosion from in the building, not a crash from outside.

Who ever these "people" are, they are wrong.

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

If anybody has done some research on this subject I would love to hear about it.

I was there.

paximperium · 21st March 2009, 06:24 PM

Uh...no wreckage?

You do realize a plane made of aluminum and steel hit a reinforced concrete building designed to withstands bombs? It is surprising there is as much wreckage as there is.

Toke · 21st March 2009, 06:34 PM

There is something here I don´t get.

How would anyone coordinate the placing and detonation of a bomb inside the pentagon with the impact of an airplane. And why, a plane gives plenty damage for PR effect.
And how would such a conspiracy fit the other planes, and lack of termite/explosives?

A conspiracy teori should at least be internally consistent.

Locknar · 21st March 2009, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by paximperium

You do realize a plane made of aluminum and steel hit a reinforced concrete building designed to withstands bombs? It is surprising there is as much wreckage as there is.

The outter wall of Pentagon is solid stone, 3 - 5 ft thick depending on location...not concrete.

Thunder · 21st March 2009, 07:57 PM

throw an aluminum can at 600 mph at a concrete wall. i wonder what will happen to it.

Beerdoodle · 22nd March 2009, 12:27 PM

stateofgrace, thanks for the link. I had not heard about the downed light poles. It's kind of hard to find good information out there. Usually when you do a search, you just find sites about the conspiracy theories.

Beerdoodle · 22nd March 2009, 12:32 PM

Locknar, you were there? Were you there when it happened? Were you injured? What can you remember about it? Have you written about it your experience anywhere? I have never talked to anybody that experienced the attacks.

George152 · 22nd March 2009, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

throw an aluminum can at 600 mph at a concrete wall. i wonder what will happen to it.

The aluminium can weighs 120 tons and is thrown at the concrete wall at 500mph it is going to go through

Locknar · 22nd March 2009, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

Locknar, you were there? Were you there when it happened?

Yes, 3A147.

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

Were you injured?

No; I was not injured nor was any of my staff in the attack.

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

What can you remember about it?

Everything

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

Have you written about it your experience anywhere? I have never talked to anybody that experienced the attacks.

No, but you (et all) are welcome to ask any questions you might have.

skepticdave · 14th May 2009, 09:28 AM

I have a friend who expressed the same belief, "How could a huge jet hit a building and get disintegrated? I cant imagine that, so it must not have happened." Uh, what?

Well, educate yourself! Here's a Phantom jet hitting a concrete wall at 500 mph. Its quite stunning how it literally vaporizes.

Oops, I can't post a link yet, so go to youtube and type in the search field "jet hits wall." Its the first result entitled "F4 Phantom Jet Hits Concrete Wall at 500 MPH"

sts60 · 14th May 2009, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

He maintains that the attack on the pentagon where flight 77 hit the pentagon on 9/11 was a cover up for a bombing that was set up by the government.

Your friend is, to put it as kindly as I can, an idiot. Why in the world would you attempt to fake an airliner crash in broad daylight, in full view of many, many unrelated witnesses, with a bomb or missile or drone? (Indeed, many dozens of people directly witnessed the airliner crashing into the Pentagon.) Think about it for a minute; it's absurd, even if you think the eeevil gubmint was behind it all. If you want people to think an airliner hit the Pentagon, you hit it with an airliner. Everything else requires a flight of fancy that would put the love clone of Rube Goldberg and M.C. Escher to shame.

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

Google for photographs of the 9/11 pentagon attack and you will not see ANY parts of the plane. The government says that it "disintegrated." Is this even physically possible? Can a plane disintegrate? Wouldn't there be at least some scrap metal or seats or luggage or something left over from the crash?

What do you think happens when an airliner made of aluminum runs into a very thick wall - literally a fortress wall - at 500 miles per hour? Is it supposed to leave a perfect cartoon-style outline?

You've already been shown pictures of debris. I know firefighters who were there that day, pulling pieces of 757 (and victims) out.

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

Plus some people say that the pattern of debris when seen from above are consistent with an explosion from in the building, not a crash from outside.

These people are delusional. They probably think lunar craters are the results of bombs (and half of them probably think we never landed on the Moon to boot).

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

If anybody has done some research on this subject I would love to hear about it. Maybe there is some evidence or solid science that I haven't seen that would really help debunk this theory. This would make a good skeptoid episode.

This has been done to death in the 9/11 conspiracy forum. The "no-plane" claim is one of the five dumbest things I've ever heard. It's right up there with the claim that NASA blew up Challenger because Christa McAuliffe was going to admit you can see stars in space.*

*Don't ask. It's a long, painfully dumb story, and the no-planes stupidity alone is already enough to induce a migraine.

Patricio Elicer · 14th May 2009, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Beerdoodle

Google for photographs of the 9/11 pentagon attack and you will not see ANY parts of the plane.

Really?

Watch this:

and this...

and this ...

and this...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

and this ...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

What do you think now?

Lanzy · 14th May 2009, 01:53 PM

Beerdoodle, several of us were there. We don't need no stinking theories.

skepticdave · 25th May 2009, 04:03 PM

I just watched the excellent 4-hour, 2-part National Geographic documentary on the 9-11 mission. It was stunning in its detail and scope. I recommend any denier just watch about 15 minutes and then try to say the same US Government nonsense.

They have traced every step of the 19 perpetrators going back years before the attack. Some of them recorded videos, wrote letters, and sent emails to relatives describing their involvement. They got several guys on video leaving WalMart where they bought the box-cutters. There are numerous phone calls by passengers (and airline staff) ON THE PLANES to loved ones before they crashed. One of the terrorist pilots was recorded by the FAA making a radio call while in the cockpit. C'mon! The list just goes on and on and on.

There is no doubt, so lets not disrespect the memory of those who perished by concocting idiotic theories based on ignorance of the facts. Bin Laden bought and paid for the mission and will gladly tell you. Don't EVER let him off the hook just because you have faulty logic.

empeake · 25th May 2009, 04:45 PM

This Mythbusters video clip can give an idea of the amount of desintegration. In particular, watch the super slow motion sequence beginning at the 2:12 mark.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

ElMondoHummus · 25th May 2009, 04:47 PM

Welcome Beerdoodle. While this is not direct evidence, it is secondary evidence that further confirms the presence of the jet:

American Airlines Flight 77 (the flight that hit the Pentagon), was not lost to radar, not "primary" radar at least. You can find more information about this in the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories subforum, but in essence: Flight 77 had turned from its path and shut down its radar transponder. This

Put the aircraft in airspace that air traffic controllers were not expecting it to be in, and
Because the transponder radioing flight identification data was shut off, what's called "secondary" radar could not detect it. Secondary radar is passive; it only receives signals from transponders.

So, FL77 was indeed lost to air traffic controllers for a period of time, but reconstruction of "primary" radar data - data sent by what we traditionally think of as radar i.e. a randome sending out a signal and receiving returns from flying aircraft - shows clearly the track the jet flew from takeoff to impact. The writeup of the NTSB analysis of that data can be found here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/

In short: We have radar data showing the flight from takeoff to the point it dropped below radar coverage, which was mere seconds before impact. It's true that this is not an aircraft part, but regardless, it is definitive for identifying that flight as well as the location it ended up in.

There's more proof of FL77's impact on the Pentagon, but I'll leave that for you to find. There's been lots of stuff posted over in the Resources section (http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18) that you can cruise through.

21st March 2009, 03:50 PM	#1
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6	9/11 Pentagon attack Ok, I have a friend who is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. He believes all of the stupid Alex Jones crap about the U.S. government being behind the attacks. I can pretty much debunk everything he says. It's kind of ridiculous. However, there is one subject that I can't quite explain, so I am putting it out there for you fellow skeptics to help me out. He maintains that the attack on the pentagon where flight 77 hit the pentagon on 9/11 was a cover up for a bombing that was set up by the government. This has the pungent odor of conspiracy bull that will turn one's stomach, but upon doing my own (limited) research about the subject, the bombing theory has a little weight. Google for photographs of the 9/11 pentagon attack and you will not see ANY parts of the plane. The government says that it "disintegrated." Is this even physically possible? Can a plane disintegrate? Wouldn't there be at least some scrap metal or seats or luggage or something left over from the crash? Plus some people say that the pattern of debris when seen from above are consistent with an explosion from in the building, not a crash from outside. I am not a scientist or physicist or anything but thinking rationally I could see where the attack on the pentagon could possibly have been a bomb. If anybody has done some research on this subject I would love to hear about it. Maybe there is some evidence or solid science that I haven't seen that would really help debunk this theory. This would make a good skeptoid episode.
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6

21st March 2009, 03:54 PM	#2
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,838	Ahem. You are joking, right?
	__________________ All You Need Is Love.

21st March 2009, 03:55 PM	#3
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,838	Oh, welcome.
	__________________ All You Need Is Love.

21st March 2009, 03:56 PM	#4
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6	No, I am not joking.
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6

21st March 2009, 03:57 PM	#5
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,838	In that case I have nothing to offer. Good luck.
	__________________ All You Need Is Love.

21st March 2009, 04:00 PM	#6
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6	I don't believe the government bombed the pentagon, but I just want to know where the friggin' plane is.
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6

21st March 2009, 04:02 PM	#8
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,838	http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true
	__________________ All You Need Is Love.

21st March 2009, 04:03 PM	#9
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,838	As coroner, responsible for returning human remains, Miller has been forced to share with the families information that is unimaginable. As he clinically recounts to them, holding back very few details, the 33 passengers, seven crew and four hijackers together weighed roughly 7,000 pounds. They were essentially cremated together upon impact. Hundreds of searchers who climbed the hemlocks and combed the woods for weeks were able to find about 1,500 mostly scorched samples of human tissue totaling less than 600 pounds, or about 8 percent of the total.
	__________________ All You Need Is Love.

21st March 2009, 04:11 PM	#10
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6	Ok, that almost helps. That link is about flight 93, the one that people prevented from crashing into a building and the passengers took over the hijackers and crashed the plane in the woods, killing only those on board. Flight 77 is the one that hit the pentagon. I need more info about that plane. But thanks for the link, that was a good article.
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6

21st March 2009, 04:31 PM	#11
stateofgrace Guest Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Scotland Posts: 3,847	Originally Posted by Beerdoodle Ok, that almost helps. That link is about flight 93, the one that people prevented from crashing into a building and the passengers took over the hijackers and crashed the plane in the woods, killing only those on board. Flight 77 is the one that hit the pentagon. I need more info about that plane. But thanks for the link, that was a good article. Maybe you should look here. http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18 Or maybe this thread should be moved here http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64 Regards stateofgrace.

21st March 2009, 06:19 PM	#12
Locknar Sum of all evils ^tm Deputy Admin Join Date: May 2007 Location: 25.50 N, 77.54 W Posts: 14,499	Originally Posted by Beerdoodle This has the pungent odor of conspiracy bull that will turn one's stomach, <snip> Actually, the odor was JPL (ie. jet fuel) Originally Posted by Beerdoodle The government says that it "disintegrated." Is this even physically possible? Can a plane disintegrate? Yes. ETA: The crash site is/was consistent with other "nose first" head on type impacts. Originally Posted by Beerdoodle Plus some people say that the pattern of debris when seen from above are consistent with an explosion from in the building, not a crash from outside. Who ever these "people" are, they are wrong. Originally Posted by Beerdoodle If anybody has done some research on this subject I would love to hear about it. I was there.
	__________________ Member Simpson 15 and Ex-defendant in Simpson v. Randi, et al. \| StopSylvia.com \| JREF Forum Twitter Last edited by Locknar; 21st March 2009 at 06:50 PM.

21st March 2009, 06:24 PM	#13
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,727	Uh...no wreckage? You do realize a plane made of aluminum and steel hit a reinforced concrete building designed to withstands bombs? It is surprising there is as much wreckage as there is.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

21st March 2009, 06:34 PM	#14
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,619	There is something here I don´t get. How would anyone coordinate the placing and detonation of a bomb inside the pentagon with the impact of an airplane. And why, a plane gives plenty damage for PR effect. And how would such a conspiracy fit the other planes, and lack of termite/explosives? A conspiracy teori should at least be internally consistent.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx. Last edited by Toke; 21st March 2009 at 06:34 PM. Reason: Spelling

21st March 2009, 06:39 PM	#15
Locknar Sum of all evils ^tm Deputy Admin Join Date: May 2007 Location: 25.50 N, 77.54 W Posts: 14,499	Originally Posted by paximperium You do realize a plane made of aluminum and steel hit a reinforced concrete building designed to withstands bombs? It is surprising there is as much wreckage as there is. The outter wall of Pentagon is solid stone, 3 - 5 ft thick depending on location...not concrete.
	__________________ Member Simpson 15 and Ex-defendant in Simpson v. Randi, et al. \| StopSylvia.com \| JREF Forum Twitter

21st March 2009, 07:57 PM	#16
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	throw an aluminum can at 600 mph at a concrete wall. i wonder what will happen to it.

22nd March 2009, 12:27 PM	#17
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6	stateofgrace, thanks for the link. I had not heard about the downed light poles. It's kind of hard to find good information out there. Usually when you do a search, you just find sites about the conspiracy theories.
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6

22nd March 2009, 12:32 PM	#18
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6	Locknar, you were there? Were you there when it happened? Were you injured? What can you remember about it? Have you written about it your experience anywhere? I have never talked to anybody that experienced the attacks.
Beerdoodle New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6

22nd March 2009, 12:37 PM	#19
George152 Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hamilton New Zealand Posts: 2,054	Originally Posted by parky76 throw an aluminum can at 600 mph at a concrete wall. i wonder what will happen to it. The aluminium can weighs 120 tons and is thrown at the concrete wall at 500mph it is going to go through
	__________________ Unemployment isn't working

22nd March 2009, 02:09 PM	#20
Locknar Sum of all evils ^tm Deputy Admin Join Date: May 2007 Location: 25.50 N, 77.54 W Posts: 14,499	Originally Posted by Beerdoodle Locknar, you were there? Were you there when it happened? Yes, 3A147. Originally Posted by Beerdoodle Were you injured? No; I was not injured nor was any of my staff in the attack. Originally Posted by Beerdoodle What can you remember about it? Everything Originally Posted by Beerdoodle Have you written about it your experience anywhere? I have never talked to anybody that experienced the attacks. No, but you (et all) are welcome to ask any questions you might have.
	__________________ Member Simpson 15 and Ex-defendant in Simpson v. Randi, et al. \| StopSylvia.com \| JREF Forum Twitter

14th May 2009, 09:28 AM	#21
skepticdave New Blood Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 2	Plane hits concrete wall, watch and learn I have a friend who expressed the same belief, "How could a huge jet hit a building and get disintegrated? I cant imagine that, so it must not have happened." Uh, what? Well, educate yourself! Here's a Phantom jet hitting a concrete wall at 500 mph. Its quite stunning how it literally vaporizes. Oops, I can't post a link yet, so go to youtube and type in the search field "jet hits wall." Its the first result entitled "F4 Phantom Jet Hits Concrete Wall at 500 MPH"
skepticdave New Blood Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 2

14th May 2009, 10:10 AM	#22
sts60 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,519	Originally Posted by Beerdoodle He maintains that the attack on the pentagon where flight 77 hit the pentagon on 9/11 was a cover up for a bombing that was set up by the government. Your friend is, to put it as kindly as I can, an idiot. Why in the world would you attempt to fake an airliner crash in broad daylight, in full view of many, many unrelated witnesses, with a bomb or missile or drone? (Indeed, many dozens of people directly witnessed the airliner crashing into the Pentagon.) Think about it for a minute; it's absurd, even if you think the eeevil gubmint was behind it all. If you want people to think an airliner hit the Pentagon, you hit it with an airliner. Everything else requires a flight of fancy that would put the love clone of Rube Goldberg and M.C. Escher to shame. Originally Posted by Beerdoodle Google for photographs of the 9/11 pentagon attack and you will not see ANY parts of the plane. The government says that it "disintegrated." Is this even physically possible? Can a plane disintegrate? Wouldn't there be at least some scrap metal or seats or luggage or something left over from the crash? What do you think happens when an airliner made of aluminum runs into a very thick wall - literally a fortress wall - at 500 miles per hour? Is it supposed to leave a perfect cartoon-style outline? You've already been shown pictures of debris. I know firefighters who were there that day, pulling pieces of 757 (and victims) out. Originally Posted by Beerdoodle Plus some people say that the pattern of debris when seen from above are consistent with an explosion from in the building, not a crash from outside. These people are delusional. They probably think lunar craters are the results of bombs (and half of them probably think we never landed on the Moon to boot). Originally Posted by Beerdoodle If anybody has done some research on this subject I would love to hear about it. Maybe there is some evidence or solid science that I haven't seen that would really help debunk this theory. This would make a good skeptoid episode. This has been done to death in the 9/11 conspiracy forum. The "no-plane" claim is one of the five dumbest things I've ever heard. It's right up there with the claim that NASA blew up Challenger because Christa McAuliffe was going to admit you can see stars in space.* *Don't ask. It's a long, painfully dumb story, and the no-planes stupidity alone is already enough to induce a migraine.
sts60 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,519

14th May 2009, 01:53 PM	#24
Lanzy Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 887	Beerdoodle, several of us were there. We don't need no stinking theories.
Lanzy Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 887

25th May 2009, 04:03 PM	#25
skepticdave New Blood Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 2	Don't forget the AlQaeda plot, folks. I just watched the excellent 4-hour, 2-part National Geographic documentary on the 9-11 mission. It was stunning in its detail and scope. I recommend any denier just watch about 15 minutes and then try to say the same US Government nonsense. They have traced every step of the 19 perpetrators going back years before the attack. Some of them recorded videos, wrote letters, and sent emails to relatives describing their involvement. They got several guys on video leaving WalMart where they bought the box-cutters. There are numerous phone calls by passengers (and airline staff) ON THE PLANES to loved ones before they crashed. One of the terrorist pilots was recorded by the FAA making a radio call while in the cockpit. C'mon! The list just goes on and on and on. There is no doubt, so lets not disrespect the memory of those who perished by concocting idiotic theories based on ignorance of the facts. Bin Laden bought and paid for the mission and will gladly tell you. Don't EVER let him off the hook just because you have faulty logic.
skepticdave New Blood Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 2

25th May 2009, 04:47 PM	#27
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 11,967	Welcome Beerdoodle. While this is not direct evidence, it is secondary evidence that further confirms the presence of the jet: American Airlines Flight 77 (the flight that hit the Pentagon), was not lost to radar, not "primary" radar at least. You can find more information about this in the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories subforum, but in essence: Flight 77 had turned from its path and shut down its radar transponder. This Put the aircraft in airspace that air traffic controllers were not expecting it to be in, and Because the transponder radioing flight identification data was shut off, what's called "secondary" radar could not detect it. Secondary radar is passive; it only receives signals from transponders. So, FL77 was indeed lost to air traffic controllers for a period of time, but reconstruction of "primary" radar data - data sent by what we traditionally think of as radar i.e. a randome sending out a signal and receiving returns from flying aircraft - shows clearly the track the jet flew from takeoff to impact. The writeup of the NTSB analysis of that data can be found here: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/ In short: We have radar data showing the flight from takeoff to the point it dropped below radar coverage, which was mere seconds before impact. It's true that this is not an aircraft part, but regardless, it is definitive for identifying that flight as well as the location it ended up in. There's more proof of FL77's impact on the Pentagon, but I'll leave that for you to find. There's been lots of stuff posted over in the Resources section (http://forums.randi.org/local_links.php?catid=18) that you can cruise through.
	__________________ must take this very carefully....booze is wise men's drink..... -pillory "... I'm quite willing to have everyone use my rejection of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a basis for assessing my intelligence, judgment, and trustworthiness" -Prof. Ann Althouse