Is what I'm doing legal?

Deetee · 24th March 2009, 04:33 PM

So I play a tune from spotify, and save it to my laptop. I convert the wma file to an mp3 and copy it into my itunes library.
Surely this can't be right? (as in ethically correct/allowable)

Tsukasa Buddha · 24th March 2009, 07:27 PM

If you are ripping/recording the stream, then no. It is in violation of the EUA to which you agreed in order to use the Spotify Service.

quixotecoyote · 24th March 2009, 08:10 PM

What Tsukasa said.

Also, how is spotify going to be different from pandora or slacker?

BenBurch · 24th March 2009, 08:39 PM

Depends on where you are, and the legalities are largely not tried in courts.

In the USA, it is legal to record anything you want for personal use from a radio broadcast. This would include digital radio.

Where it becomes unclear is when you record a stream from a station that also broadcasts, or when you record a stream from a station which is internet only. Generally these are thought to be covered by the personal use broadcast exception, but I am not sure that this will EVER be tested.

Because as long as it is for personal use, and you don't pass it on or post it on the net or make and sell mix CDs at a flea market, then there is really no reason to come after you.

Now, as has been observed, if you agreed to limitations when you signed on to Spotify, then you might be breaking their contract and you might be in trouble with them. But again, as long as you never, ever pass any of that on, I doubt they are going to come looking to lock you up!

-Ben

Kevin_Lowe · 24th March 2009, 08:40 PM

The legal power of EULA's is questionable, and downloading copyrighted content without the permission of the content owner is de facto legal.

Despite all the rhetoric about the evils of downloading, only uploaders have ever been pursued via the courts.

Ethically, if you think you have an obligation to obey the law or EULAs "just because" then you should think it immoral to do this. If weigh the ethics of your actions based on whether they harm or benefit the world, your action harms nobody unless you know you would buy the track if you could not download it for free. Studies that aren't funded by vested interests show that music piracy doesn't affect music consumption overall, although it's a pretty reasonable guess that crappy music is hurt by downloading, good music benefits and the effects mostly cancel out on the national scale.

Tsukasa Buddha · 24th March 2009, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe

The legal power of EULA's is questionable, and downloading copyrighted content without the permission of the content owner is de facto legal.

It is legally binding, and it saying something is de facto legal when it is clearly illegal is an absurdity.

Quote:

Despite all the rhetoric about the evils of downloading, only uploaders have ever been pursued via the courts.

True, but that doesn't make something legal or even ethical.

Quote:

Ethically, if you think you have an obligation to obey the law or EULAs "just because" then you should think it immoral to do this.

Um, it is not "just because". It is because you agreed to it and the contract contains nothing unethical.

Quote:

If weigh the ethics of your actions based on whether they harm or benefit the world, your action harms nobody unless you know you would buy the track if you could not download it for free. Studies that aren't funded by vested interests show that music piracy doesn't affect music consumption overall, although it's a pretty reasonable guess that crappy music is hurt by downloading, good music benefits and the effects mostly cancel out on the national scale.

Evidence?

Kevin_Lowe · 25th March 2009, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

It is legally binding, and it saying something is de facto legal when it is clearly illegal is an absurdity.

If nobody has ever been sued or prosecuted for it, despite the fact that huge numbers of people do it, it's de facto legal. If you don't understand that you may just be confused about what de facto means.

Quote:

Um, it is not "just because". It is because you agreed to it and the contract contains nothing unethical.

That's what I call "just because". Your doing what you agreed to do doesn't make the world a better place. You're observing a rule just to be observing a rule.

Quote:

Evidence?

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-623...243454&start=0

also

http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/kn...ods/stumpf.pdf

Professor Yaffle · 25th March 2009, 02:49 AM

http://www.spotifyripping.com/?page_id=11

Deetee · 25th March 2009, 11:30 AM

Must have missed the bit in the small print when I signed up to it.....
Anyway, it's just the odd track, and only for personal use, so I think I'll risk it.

elgarak · 25th March 2009, 01:27 PM

Regarding phrases like "de facto legal": One has to take into account that the service is based, and currently only offered in western Europe, which is (mostly) governed by civil law systems, whereas the UK and the USA use a common law system, in which disputations of contract terms have to be settled in court, decided by judges and juries, to gain legal status. This does not happen in Europe (excluding UK): The legality is spelled out in the civil and criminal codes.

24th March 2009, 04:33 PM	#1
Deetee Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,790	Is what I'm doing legal? So I play a tune from spotify, and save it to my laptop. I convert the wma file to an mp3 and copy it into my itunes library. Surely this can't be right? (as in ethically correct/allowable)
Deetee Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,790	__________________ "Reci bobu bob a popu pop." - Tanja "Everything is physics. This does not mean that physics is everything." - Cuddles "The entire practice of homeopathy can be substituted with the advice to "take two aspirins and call me in the morning." - Linda "Homeopathy: I never knew there was so little in it." - BSM

24th March 2009, 07:27 PM	#2
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,918	If you are ripping/recording the stream, then no. It is in violation of the EUA to which you agreed in order to use the Spotify Service.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

24th March 2009, 08:10 PM	#3
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	What Tsukasa said. Also, how is spotify going to be different from pandora or slacker?
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

24th March 2009, 08:39 PM	#4
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,193	Depends on where you are, and the legalities are largely not tried in courts. In the USA, it is legal to record anything you want for personal use from a radio broadcast. This would include digital radio. Where it becomes unclear is when you record a stream from a station that also broadcasts, or when you record a stream from a station which is internet only. Generally these are thought to be covered by the personal use broadcast exception, but I am not sure that this will EVER be tested. Because as long as it is for personal use, and you don't pass it on or post it on the net or make and sell mix CDs at a flea market, then there is really no reason to come after you. Now, as has been observed, if you agreed to limitations when you signed on to Spotify, then you might be breaking their contract and you might be in trouble with them. But again, as long as you never, ever pass any of that on, I doubt they are going to come looking to lock you up! -Ben
	__________________ Are you IN? Join the IN crowd now!

24th March 2009, 08:40 PM	#5
Kevin_Lowe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Queensland Posts: 10,284	The legal power of EULA's is questionable, and downloading copyrighted content without the permission of the content owner is de facto legal. Despite all the rhetoric about the evils of downloading, only uploaders have ever been pursued via the courts. Ethically, if you think you have an obligation to obey the law or EULAs "just because" then you should think it immoral to do this. If weigh the ethics of your actions based on whether they harm or benefit the world, your action harms nobody unless you know you would buy the track if you could not download it for free. Studies that aren't funded by vested interests show that music piracy doesn't affect music consumption overall, although it's a pretty reasonable guess that crappy music is hurt by downloading, good music benefits and the effects mostly cancel out on the national scale.
	__________________ Thinking is skilled work....People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge-players, or pianists. -- Alfred Mander

24th March 2009, 10:42 PM	#6
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,918	Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe The legal power of EULA's is questionable, and downloading copyrighted content without the permission of the content owner is de facto legal. It is legally binding, and it saying something is de facto legal when it is clearly illegal is an absurdity. Quote: Despite all the rhetoric about the evils of downloading, only uploaders have ever been pursued via the courts. True, but that doesn't make something legal or even ethical. Quote: Ethically, if you think you have an obligation to obey the law or EULAs "just because" then you should think it immoral to do this. Um, it is not "just because". It is because you agreed to it and the contract contains nothing unethical. Quote: If weigh the ethics of your actions based on whether they harm or benefit the world, your action harms nobody unless you know you would buy the track if you could not download it for free. Studies that aren't funded by vested interests show that music piracy doesn't affect music consumption overall, although it's a pretty reasonable guess that crappy music is hurt by downloading, good music benefits and the effects mostly cancel out on the national scale. Evidence?
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

25th March 2009, 02:15 AM	#7
Kevin_Lowe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Queensland Posts: 10,284	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha It is legally binding, and it saying something is de facto legal when it is clearly illegal is an absurdity. If nobody has ever been sued or prosecuted for it, despite the fact that huge numbers of people do it, it's de facto legal. If you don't understand that you may just be confused about what de facto means. Quote: Um, it is not "just because". It is because you agreed to it and the contract contains nothing unethical. That's what I call "just because". Your doing what you agreed to do doesn't make the world a better place. You're observing a rule just to be observing a rule. Quote: Evidence? http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-623...243454&start=0 also http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/kn...ods/stumpf.pdf
	__________________ Thinking is skilled work....People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge-players, or pianists. -- Alfred Mander

25th March 2009, 02:49 AM	#8
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,356	http://www.spotifyripping.com/?page_id=11
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat

25th March 2009, 11:30 AM	#9
Deetee Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,790	Must have missed the bit in the small print when I signed up to it..... Anyway, it's just the odd track, and only for personal use, so I think I'll risk it.
Deetee Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,790	__________________ "Reci bobu bob a popu pop." - Tanja "Everything is physics. This does not mean that physics is everything." - Cuddles "The entire practice of homeopathy can be substituted with the advice to "take two aspirins and call me in the morning." - Linda "Homeopathy: I never knew there was so little in it." - BSM

25th March 2009, 01:27 PM	#10
elgarak Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: No matter where I go, there I am Posts: 1,859	Regarding phrases like "de facto legal": One has to take into account that the service is based, and currently only offered in western Europe, which is (mostly) governed by civil law systems, whereas the UK and the USA use a common law system, in which disputations of contract terms have to be settled in court, decided by judges and juries, to gain legal status. This does not happen in Europe (excluding UK): The legality is spelled out in the civil and criminal codes.