Friendships destroyed by drugs

Cainkane1 · 25th March 2009, 06:10 AM

I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him.

I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.

What do you guys think?

Cleon · 25th March 2009, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him.

I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.

So the guy tells you that he fixed himself up, and you didn't even give him a chance. You just wrote him off for things he did 30 years ago.

Quote:

What do you guys think?

Frankly, that you're a jerk.

Monketey Ghost · 25th March 2009, 09:20 AM

I work with addicts all the time at the hospital. They are often: supremely manipulative, full of insincere apologies that fool the gullible, drug-seeking (and believe me, this causes lots of problems for those who genuinely are in pain and do need the medication), excuse-making, I'll-do-better-next-timers.

In fact I just spent a 12 hour shift taking care of one of them. Waste of skin, the guy is. The skin without needle tracks that is.

I lost three close friends to heroin while just staying a pot-head. We all make choices.

Vic Vega · 25th March 2009, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.

Such as?

fuelair · 25th March 2009, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

So the guy tells you that he fixed himself up, and you didn't even give him a chance. You just wrote him off for things he did 30 years ago.

Frankly, that you're a jerk.

You might be wrong there - I would need a lot more info to decide that. For my reasons see the post under yours I am quoting - that is frequently the behavior of the "ex-Xers" of many types

Gate2501 · 25th March 2009, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him.

I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.

What do you guys think?

PCP is pretty hardcore, but I smoke pot occasionally and I am a pretty good father, devoted to my kid. I also drink a 6 pack one or two nights out of the week. I know, I'm so bad.

I doubt that he was "willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk". That sounds a lot more like your opinion of his character, than the reality of the situation(unless he is different from the other addicts I have known). Most people who are addicted to hardcore drugs like meth/heroin/PCP(?) have had their will completely broken. I doubt he was "willing" to do anything at all.

Cleon · 25th March 2009, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

You might be wrong there - I would need a lot more info to decide that. For my reasons see the post under yours I am quoting - that is frequently the behavior of the "ex-Xers" of many types

I understand that addicts (particularly destructive ones) have a habit of being less than truthful. I don't discount anything you or Magnifico are saying.

But rather than get more information and determine whether or not the acquaintance really had cleaned himself up (which can and does happen), Cainkane just blew him off.

So unless there's a bit of information Cainkane didn't provide, I'll stand by my opinion that he acted like a jerk.

Gate2501 · 25th March 2009, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0

I work with addicts all the time at the hospital. They are often: supremely manipulative, full of insincere apologies that fool the gullible, drug-seeking (and believe me, this causes lots of problems for those who genuinely are in pain and do need the medication), excuse-making, I'll-do-better-next-timers.

In fact I just spent a 12 hour shift taking care of one of them. Waste of skin, the guy is. The skin without needle tracks that is.

Maybe you should go tell your employer that you are done taking care of "waste of skin drug addicts"? You probably shouldn't be taking care of people that you loathe. It seems wrong.

Monketey Ghost · 25th March 2009, 10:17 AM

With you to a point, Cleon. I can speak to experience with lots of addicts and their behavior though... it's rarely worth it. And if the guy really has cleaned up and is a better man, great on him. But he is also prepared to accept that the friendships he took a crap on, no matter how long ago, may be gone and not redeemable. Acceptance isn't just a step in dealing with death...

Monketey Ghost · 25th March 2009, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Gate2501

Maybe you should go tell your employer that you are done taking care of "waste of skin drug addicts"? You probably shouldn't be taking care of people that you loathe. It seems wrong.

Never work in a hospital setting? I can have sympathy for and be personally repulsed by people I feel are just useless. My taxes pay for a lot of the folks I have to handle, for their care, and housing, and meals... and after you've been spat on or cussed out because you wouldn't provide what the doctors said they can't have etc. etc. it wears very thin.

What would be wrong would be to refuse to care for them.

Cleon · 25th March 2009, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0

With you to a point, Cleon. I can speak to experience with lots of addicts and their behavior though... it's rarely worth it.

You work in a hospital. You see addicts at their worst. If they clean up years later, well, you don't see that part. It's a bit of a self-selecting sample, really.

Quote:

And if the guy really has cleaned up and is a better man, great on him. But he is also prepared to accept that the friendships he took a crap on, no matter how long ago, may be gone and not redeemable. Acceptance isn't just a step in dealing with death...

Sure. There's nothing requiring that Cainkain talk to him.

I still maintain that blowing him off without getting more information is acting like a jerk, though.

I have a cousin who is a former heroin addict. If people treated her the way Cainkain treated his former friend, she'd likely still be addicted and living in a cardboard box somewhere (or worse). Instead, she got help, and is now a well-respected journalist and author.

You may not see it during your day job, but recovery does happen, and quite a bit can happen over three decades.

AJM8125 · 25th March 2009, 10:33 AM

The guy might be in some sort of recovery program like a 12 step. Sometimes part of the process is to mend fences with those they've hurt in the past.

Just a thought.

Safe-Keeper · 25th March 2009, 10:43 AM

I've got friends who are former narcotics and I love them - in fact, they're among the best buddies I've got. Easy for me to say, though, who don't have to deal with anyone who actually presently is a narcotic (especially when I loathe drunk people with a passion).

On balance, though, I say give him a chance, and if you do write him off, do so because of whatever he may have done to you, not just because he used to be a junkie.

Quote:

I lost three close friends to heroin while just staying a pot-head. We all make choices.

Yes, we all make choices, and one of the things I cherish with humanity is one's ability to treat others as equals even though you don't consider them to be as smart as you.

Monketey Ghost · 25th March 2009, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

You work in a hospital. You see addicts at their worst. If they clean up years later, well, you don't see that part. It's a bit of a self-selecting sample, really. *snip*
...You may not see it during your day job, but recovery does happen, and quite a bit can happen over three decades.

You're right. Not just a bit of self-selecting samplage, as I read your post, but 100 percent. And it was somewhat unfair to those who go right and stay right.

In my personal experience however, those who don't die have not gone on to be much more than barely sustained junkies.

As for the hospital? You are correct that all I see are people at their worst, and that makes me uninterested in dealing with certain personality types.

I should say, but for my decision never to use heroin or cocaine, I might've been a sick, shaky addict myself. If pot had an equal potential for addiction I might have been one...

Monketey Ghost · 25th March 2009, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

I've got friends who are former narcotics and I love them - in fact, they're among the best buddies I've got. Easy for me to say, though, who don't have to deal with anyone who actually presently is a narcotic (especially when I loathe drunk people with a passion).

On balance, though, I say give him a chance, and if you do write him off, do so because of whatever he may have done to you, not just because he used to be a junkie.

Yes, we all make choices, and one of the things I cherish with humanity is one's ability to treat others as equals even though you don't consider them to be as smart as you.

Saw what you first wrote, but I'll address this instead. I won't treat addicts as equal to me, ever. Not when they're in the throes of the addiction anyways; they've debased themselves so much I'd have to lose a lot of self-respect to be on the same level.

It's asking for an embarrassing, what-was-I-thinking situation.

Cainkane1 · 25th March 2009, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Vic Vega

Such as?

Screaming in my face for no reason. Stealing property from me and some things so bad that I don't feel comfortable discussing them in this forum. It was not just me. It was his girlfriend, later on his wife and his own daughter. He borrowed money from me he never intended to pay back. He actually broke into my house and I had to have him arrested. Its been a long time but some things stick with you. He never kept his word and was in fact a liar. I don't care how long ago it was. I'm not going through that again.

Personal Grudge · 25th March 2009, 11:20 AM

Having experienced friendships with both addicts and former-addicts... I can certainly empathize with the lack of trust that develops. However, when confronted with someone who claims to have cleaned up, I see more than just the following two options:

1) Turn the person away, wanting nothing to do with them.
2) Welcome them into my home with open arms.

There is always the possibility of meeting with them in more neutral social settings on occasion... a dinner at a restaurant on occasion. I would make it known that proof is in the pudding... I don't accept this change and recovery until it is proven to me. My family and home would be off-limits until I was satisfied with the former-addict's behavior.

This, of course, depends entirely on previous experience with this individual. If a former friend had broken into my home as Cainkane relates, I imagine my reaction may be identical.

Cleon · 25th March 2009, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0

You're right. Not just a bit of self-selecting samplage, as I read your post, but 100 percent. And it was somewhat unfair to those who go right and stay right.

In my personal experience however, those who don't die have not gone on to be much more than barely sustained junkies.

As for the hospital? You are correct that all I see are people at their worst, and that makes me uninterested in dealing with certain personality types.

I should say, but for my decision never to use heroin or cocaine, I might've been a sick, shaky addict myself. If pot had an equal potential for addiction I might have been one...

Fair 'nuff.

Cainkane1 · 25th March 2009, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

I understand that addicts (particularly destructive ones) have a habit of being less than truthful. I don't discount anything you or Magnifico are saying.

But rather than get more information and determine whether or not the acquaintance really had cleaned himself up (which can and does happen), Cainkane just blew him off.

So unless there's a bit of information Cainkane didn't provide, I'll stand by my opinion that he acted like a jerk.

Suit yourself but I'm the type of person who believes there should be negative consequences to negative behaviours. It really doesn't matter to me if he has cleaned himself up. After the way he acted I feel he doesn't deserve the friendship of a person who has walked a straight line all of my life. I'm not perfect but I've never been one to hurt and use someone who has done nothing to me. When I had him arrested for breaking and entering my home and stealing my TV and some money etc a neighbor saw him and called police. I got my property back and he was put on probation. I told him to get out of my life and stay out. He came back 30 years later and I told him to stay away from me. He's stuck with my initial decision.

Xulld · 25th March 2009, 12:46 PM

Sounds like you had your answers before you made this thread.

quixotecoyote · 25th March 2009, 01:14 PM

There may be a slight difference between,

"guy was high all the time so I quit hanging around him and still don't want to even though he's clean"

and

"guy committed crimes of aggression against me and my loved ones and I don't feel comfortable resuming that relationship"

Uncayimmy · 25th March 2009, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Suit yourself but I'm the type of person who believes there should be negative consequences to negative behaviours. It really doesn't matter to me if he has cleaned himself up. After the way he acted I feel he doesn't deserve the friendship of a person who has walked a straight line all of my life. I'm not perfect but I've never been one to hurt and use someone who has done nothing to me. When I had him arrested for breaking and entering my home and stealing my TV and some money etc a neighbor saw him and called police. I got my property back and he was put on probation. I told him to get out of my life and stay out. He came back 30 years later and I told him to stay away from me. He's stuck with my initial decision.

Sounds like you're jealous and have a need to feel superior to this person, who was once your friend.

Tiktaalik · 25th March 2009, 01:30 PM

You have a right to be friends or not be friends with whoever you want and you don't have to have a reason. If a person makes you uncomfortable and you don't get anything out of the relationship, why be friends? It's nice to give people chances and it's nice to try & help them, but it's not a requirement (unless you work in certain jobs).

Miss_Kitt · 25th March 2009, 01:34 PM

Boy, this thread is loaded for me.

I come from a family with alcoholism in the older generations and drug use in the younger. So I've walked on several of the "how do I handle him/her now?" roads with people much closer than friends.

First of all, cainkane, you do not ever have to open up yourself and your family/friends to a former abuser--whether the excuse for the abuse was drug-related, or not. You have the right to protect yourself. You don't need to apologize for refusing to take that risk, any more than you have to apologize for refusing to drive on a road that you consider too icy--even if some other people are comfortable with driving on it. You are responsible for making the choices on whom you choose to trust and deal with; and you must be (and seem to have no problem being) willing to live with the results of those choices.

On the other hand, if this person had/has positive qualities that make their company worth having, you could try the "Okay, let's meet for coffee on Thursday lunchtime" approach. That's a big If, and I recognize that. I have a former friend whom I am civil to if our paths cross, but I'd never turn my back on her for 14 seconds. (And she didn't even use anything, she's just a head case.) I have, conversely, regained a relationship with my brother, who still drinks more than I'd like, and probably gets high sometimes as well. But he has managed to get himself employed, a stable living situation, and a consistant phone number for several years, so I know this isn't just one more "I'm different now" talking. I cherish every time I hear his voice, because when he's straight he's one of the coolest people I've ever met.

It's one of those sticky, unhappy, "it all depends" situations in life. There are no simple answers. That you have a history of him doing awful things to those he claimed to love and value gives you some good impetus to say, "No thanks."

Don't feel bad about venting, either! Sometimes all you can do about these things is vent. You have just been reminded of a lot of bad memories, and of the loss of a friend you once had. That can stir up a lot of mixed feelings.

I belong to the "talk through it" school of thought, can you tell?

Regards, Miss Kitt

@ Magnifico: I know where you're coming from. My sister is an ICU/CCU nurse, and the amount of money, time, medicine and knowledge they spend on people who are going to do their level best to kill themselves when they get out can make you weep. She, like you, gives them the best medical care she can--but because of her professionalism, not because they have a warm place in her heart. I see nothing wrong with drawing those lines, in medicine or any other field!

Cainkane1 · 25th March 2009, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

Sounds like you're jealous and have a need to feel superior to this person, who was once your friend.

I am superior to this person I once called friend. I'm not a thief and I never have been. I'm not obnoxious and I never have been. If I had had a wife and a child be damned if I would drink and pill pop it away. By the way his wife and daughter won't have anything to do with him either. I'm not entirely sure what all he did to them but to them he's history also. No one wants him around. His younger brother won't speak to him. I don't know what he did to him either. I do know that he was able to retire form the government working as an army chef after he left the army. He then became a butcher for a supermarket so he is gainfully employed but be that as it may. I never want to speak to him again and I told him so.

Cleon · 25th March 2009, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

I'm not obnoxious and I never have been.

shandyjan · 25th March 2009, 06:44 PM

I can forgive people, but it doesnt mean I'd want to socialise with them years down the line. Not only for past mistrusts, but you also change yourself over the years and don't always want to go there again. Although maybe a few phone chats or emails would be ok., as I'm always interested to know what someone from my past is now up to.
The experiences I had with heroin addicts, 3 or 4 I knew died, two of them being nice people before their addictions. My friends partner was a speed user and turned psychotic, I wonder what happened to him but I would always have mistrust as he did some nasty things. I wouldnt give him my address even now.

luchog · 25th March 2009, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Cleon

Sure. There's nothing requiring that Cainkain talk to him.

I still maintain that blowing him off without getting more information is acting like a jerk, though.

Or simply self-preservation. I come from a family full of addicts, mostly junkies. Seen too many others. I have one uncle who got cleaned up, turned his life around, and is now an addiction-recovery counsellor. Have a lot of other relatives who are still junkies. I'm always suspicious of "recovered" addicts, because I've seen too many of them destroy their families. I have a "cleaned up" cousin who is currently in jail because of his addiction, ruining a decent career and alienating the entire non-junkie contingent of his family in the process.

Even when actually not using, too many "recovered" addicts are still manipulative bastards who care only about themselves.

godofpie · 25th March 2009, 07:54 PM

This thread needs a group hug

:
If you want to know what an AA'er thinks, PM me.

politas · 25th March 2009, 09:17 PM

There comes a point where past actions can poison the well sufficiently that a friendship is just not possible. Even if this guy has completely cleaned up and is now a different person, Cainkane is likely to always be wondering when he'll flip out and start acting up again.

I think reformed junkies are much better off finding new friends so they can build relationships that don't have that kind of messed up past.

Ysidro · 25th March 2009, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0

With you to a point, Cleon. I can speak to experience with lots of addicts and their behavior though... it's rarely worth it. And if the guy really has cleaned up and is a better man, great on him. But he is also prepared to accept that the friendships he took a crap on, no matter how long ago, may be gone and not redeemable. Acceptance isn't just a step in dealing with death...

IAWTC. So much so that I can't add to it, just repeat it.

Morrigan · 26th March 2009, 10:54 AM

At first I thought he sounded like a jerk, too, until he pointed out what the guy had done, in which case, I'd go so far as to call him a fool for befriending someone like that again.

Autolite · 26th March 2009, 04:54 PM

I will afford Cainkane1 the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes one has no other option than to cut someone out of their life if they are a destructive influence. I've been there and done that with family. It's not an easy thing to do.

In any case, it's been my observation and experience that people never really change anyway. At best, they just become better at masking their true nature...

Whiplash · 26th March 2009, 05:00 PM

I think some may being too hard on Cainkane1. But he probably should have given more info in about the problems in the initial post to avoid it.

But I have at least one similar experience with a "friend". He was a drunk. Bad. We were friends for a long time. But as his alcholism got worse, so did his behavior. Stealing. Lying. Cheating. And saying some awful and vicious things to me when he was drunk. Many times.

One day when he called me, I laid it on the line and told him I didn't want to be friends anymore. He was sad and apologetic, but I told him firmly I was done. I haven't talked to him in at least 10 years.

If he called me now and said he'd changed, I'd also be reluctant to give him a second chance. Ever. But I can also recognize that at least part of it is my own ego not wanting to let go of the "hurt" he did to me at different times.

luchog · 26th March 2009, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Whiplash

If he called me now and said he'd changed, I'd also be reluctant to give him a second chance. Ever. But I can also recognize that at least part of it is my own ego not wanting to let go of the "hurt" he did to me at different times.

I've given junkies the benefit of the doubt before, after they'd gone through rehab and were supposedly reformed and sober. I got burned for it (not badly, fortunately, but that's because I took precautions to limit the amount of damage that could be done). I won't do it again unless I have a very very good reason to believe that they've truly straightened themselves out. So far, I've only seen that happen once.

Brainster · 26th March 2009, 09:35 PM

Yes, the con-man type seldom reforms, he just graduates to more elaborate cons, and believe me, junkies are terrific con artists.

I had a roommate just after college who was amazing; we'd catch him time after time pulling some scam and he always had some great excuse and he was such a nice guy after all that we couldn't get angry about it. But I did get a padlock for my room.

The best was when he claimed to have won $2,000 in some sort of contest on the box of Little Friskies catfood. And of course won't show anybody the winning ticket, but boy he got people to buy him drinks for a couple months on the basis of how once he got paid he was going to hold a big party for all his buddies.

Years later I bumped into him and guess what? He had won the NJ lottery just recently and he could write me a check for $1,000 if I gave him $500 cash and just held onto it for a week or two while he collected his winnings. No kidding.

Cainkane1 · 27th March 2009, 04:18 AM

I apologise. I should have been specific about the things he said and did. I do feel a bit sorry for him. His family is gone and his friends are gone. He's 61 and he looks 81 while I'm 62 and I look my age. He still has to work while I'm retired working a very easy job close to home. I've been told that his fellow workers dislike him because of his physical appearance. He looks like a drunk. I'm an atheist but the bible does say one thing I agree with. You reap what you sow.

James Redford · 5th April 2009, 02:31 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him.

I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done.

What do you guys think?

You mention that he "apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army" and "When he got back from Vietnam ..." His military experiences would be enough to severely damage him psychically.

James Redford · 5th April 2009, 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

I apologise. I should have been specific about the things he said and did. I do feel a bit sorry for him. His family is gone and his friends are gone. He's 61 and he looks 81 while I'm 62 and I look my age. He still has to work while I'm retired working a very easy job close to home. I've been told that his fellow workers dislike him because of his physical appearance. He looks like a drunk. I'm an atheist but the bible does say one thing I agree with. You reap what you sow.

From the information you provided, it sounds like the worst things that he sowed in his life were his military activities.

Puppycow · 5th April 2009, 03:45 AM

I wouldn't let him back into my life.
Better safe than sorry.

25th March 2009, 06:10 AM	#1
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Friendships destroyed by drugs I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him. I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done. What do you guys think?
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

25th March 2009, 09:13 AM	#2
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,534	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him. I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done. So the guy tells you that he fixed himself up, and you didn't even give him a chance. You just wrote him off for things he did 30 years ago. Quote: What do you guys think? Frankly, that you're a jerk.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

25th March 2009, 09:20 AM	#3
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	I work with addicts all the time at the hospital. They are often: supremely manipulative, full of insincere apologies that fool the gullible, drug-seeking (and believe me, this causes lots of problems for those who genuinely are in pain and do need the medication), excuse-making, I'll-do-better-next-timers. In fact I just spent a 12 hour shift taking care of one of them. Waste of skin, the guy is. The skin without needle tracks that is. I lost three close friends to heroin while just staying a pot-head. We all make choices.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

25th March 2009, 09:46 AM	#4
Vic Vega Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Cradle of Liberty Posts: 1,075	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done. Such as?
	__________________ "The sleeping and the dead Are but as pictures. 'Tis the eye of childhood That fears a painted devil." --Shakespeare - Macbeth

25th March 2009, 09:56 AM	#5
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,957	Originally Posted by Cleon So the guy tells you that he fixed himself up, and you didn't even give him a chance. You just wrote him off for things he did 30 years ago. Frankly, that you're a jerk. You might be wrong there - I would need a lot more info to decide that. For my reasons see the post under yours I am quoting - that is frequently the behavior of the "ex-Xers" of many types
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,957	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

25th March 2009, 10:09 AM	#6
Gate2501 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,377	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 I had a childhood friend who apparently got hooked on PCP and pot during his eight year stay in the army. When he got back from Vietnam I tried to resume the friendship. It didn't work. He was so high on this PCP of his that it made me physically sick to hear the sound of his voice. Ok so I quit hanging around him. Ok here he is again after thirty years. He looks a lot older than I do but he says he's a changed man. No more drugs or alcohol after his wife and daughter left him. I said no. I said if he was willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk then what would he do with a mere friend? I told him to write me off as a friend and to get other friends. It was too late for us because too many negative things had been said and done. What do you guys think? PCP is pretty hardcore, but I smoke pot occasionally and I am a pretty good father, devoted to my kid. I also drink a 6 pack one or two nights out of the week. I know, I'm so bad. I doubt that he was "willing to lose his family just so that he could use dope and get drunk". That sounds a lot more like your opinion of his character, than the reality of the situation(unless he is different from the other addicts I have known). Most people who are addicted to hardcore drugs like meth/heroin/PCP(?) have had their will completely broken. I doubt he was "willing" to do anything at all.

25th March 2009, 10:13 AM	#7
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,534	Originally Posted by fuelair You might be wrong there - I would need a lot more info to decide that. For my reasons see the post under yours I am quoting - that is frequently the behavior of the "ex-Xers" of many types I understand that addicts (particularly destructive ones) have a habit of being less than truthful. I don't discount anything you or Magnifico are saying. But rather than get more information and determine whether or not the acquaintance really had cleaned himself up (which can and does happen), Cainkane just blew him off. So unless there's a bit of information Cainkane didn't provide, I'll stand by my opinion that he acted like a jerk.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

25th March 2009, 10:16 AM	#8
Gate2501 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,377	Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0 I work with addicts all the time at the hospital. They are often: supremely manipulative, full of insincere apologies that fool the gullible, drug-seeking (and believe me, this causes lots of problems for those who genuinely are in pain and do need the medication), excuse-making, I'll-do-better-next-timers. In fact I just spent a 12 hour shift taking care of one of them. Waste of skin, the guy is. The skin without needle tracks that is. Maybe you should go tell your employer that you are done taking care of "waste of skin drug addicts"? You probably shouldn't be taking care of people that you loathe. It seems wrong.

25th March 2009, 10:17 AM	#9
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	With you to a point, Cleon. I can speak to experience with lots of addicts and their behavior though... it's rarely worth it. And if the guy really has cleaned up and is a better man, great on him. But he is also prepared to accept that the friendships he took a crap on, no matter how long ago, may be gone and not redeemable. Acceptance isn't just a step in dealing with death...
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

25th March 2009, 10:20 AM	#10
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	Originally Posted by Gate2501 Maybe you should go tell your employer that you are done taking care of "waste of skin drug addicts"? You probably shouldn't be taking care of people that you loathe. It seems wrong. Never work in a hospital setting? I can have sympathy for and be personally repulsed by people I feel are just useless. My taxes pay for a lot of the folks I have to handle, for their care, and housing, and meals... and after you've been spat on or cussed out because you wouldn't provide what the doctors said they can't have etc. etc. it wears very thin. What would be wrong would be to refuse to care for them.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

25th March 2009, 10:28 AM	#11
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,534	Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0 With you to a point, Cleon. I can speak to experience with lots of addicts and their behavior though... it's rarely worth it. You work in a hospital. You see addicts at their worst. If they clean up years later, well, you don't see that part. It's a bit of a self-selecting sample, really. Quote: And if the guy really has cleaned up and is a better man, great on him. But he is also prepared to accept that the friendships he took a crap on, no matter how long ago, may be gone and not redeemable. Acceptance isn't just a step in dealing with death... Sure. There's nothing requiring that Cainkain talk to him. I still maintain that blowing him off without getting more information is acting like a jerk, though. I have a cousin who is a former heroin addict. If people treated her the way Cainkain treated his former friend, she'd likely still be addicted and living in a cardboard box somewhere (or worse). Instead, she got help, and is now a well-respected journalist and author. You may not see it during your day job, but recovery does happen, and quite a bit can happen over three decades.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

25th March 2009, 10:33 AM	#12
AJM8125 NWO Black Ops Tagger Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: **** Creek, California Posts: 15,254	The guy might be in some sort of recovery program like a 12 step. Sometimes part of the process is to mend fences with those they've hurt in the past. Just a thought.
	Last edited by AJM8125; 25th March 2009 at 10:37 AM.

25th March 2009, 10:43 AM	#13
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,116	I've got friends who are former narcotics and I love them - in fact, they're among the best buddies I've got. Easy for me to say, though, who don't have to deal with anyone who actually presently is a narcotic (especially when I loathe drunk people with a passion). On balance, though, I say give him a chance, and if you do write him off, do so because of whatever he may have done to you, not just because he used to be a junkie. Quote: I lost three close friends to heroin while just staying a pot-head. We all make choices. Yes, we all make choices, and one of the things I cherish with humanity is one's ability to treat others as equals even though you don't consider them to be as smart as you.
	Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 25th March 2009 at 10:50 AM.

25th March 2009, 10:52 AM	#14
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	Originally Posted by Cleon You work in a hospital. You see addicts at their worst. If they clean up years later, well, you don't see that part. It's a bit of a self-selecting sample, really. snip ...You may not see it during your day job, but recovery does happen, and quite a bit can happen over three decades. You're right. Not just a bit of self-selecting samplage, as I read your post, but 100 percent. And it was somewhat unfair to those who go right and stay right. In my personal experience however, those who don't die have not gone on to be much more than barely sustained junkies. As for the hospital? You are correct that all I see are people at their worst, and that makes me uninterested in dealing with certain personality types. I should say, but for my decision never to use heroin or cocaine, I might've been a sick, shaky addict myself. If pot had an equal potential for addiction I might have been one...
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

25th March 2009, 10:55 AM	#15
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper I've got friends who are former narcotics and I love them - in fact, they're among the best buddies I've got. Easy for me to say, though, who don't have to deal with anyone who actually presently is a narcotic (especially when I loathe drunk people with a passion). On balance, though, I say give him a chance, and if you do write him off, do so because of whatever he may have done to you, not just because he used to be a junkie. Yes, we all make choices, and one of the things I cherish with humanity is one's ability to treat others as equals even though you don't consider them to be as smart as you. Saw what you first wrote, but I'll address this instead. I won't treat addicts as equal to me, ever. Not when they're in the throes of the addiction anyways; they've debased themselves so much I'd have to lose a lot of self-respect to be on the same level. It's asking for an embarrassing, what-was-I-thinking situation.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

25th March 2009, 11:02 AM	#16
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Originally Posted by Vic Vega Such as? Screaming in my face for no reason. Stealing property from me and some things so bad that I don't feel comfortable discussing them in this forum. It was not just me. It was his girlfriend, later on his wife and his own daughter. He borrowed money from me he never intended to pay back. He actually broke into my house and I had to have him arrested. Its been a long time but some things stick with you. He never kept his word and was in fact a liar. I don't care how long ago it was. I'm not going through that again.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

25th March 2009, 11:20 AM	#17
Personal Grudge Thinker Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 197	Having experienced friendships with both addicts and former-addicts... I can certainly empathize with the lack of trust that develops. However, when confronted with someone who claims to have cleaned up, I see more than just the following two options: 1) Turn the person away, wanting nothing to do with them. 2) Welcome them into my home with open arms. There is always the possibility of meeting with them in more neutral social settings on occasion... a dinner at a restaurant on occasion. I would make it known that proof is in the pudding... I don't accept this change and recovery until it is proven to me. My family and home would be off-limits until I was satisfied with the former-addict's behavior. This, of course, depends entirely on previous experience with this individual. If a former friend had broken into my home as Cainkane relates, I imagine my reaction may be identical.
Personal Grudge Thinker Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 197

25th March 2009, 11:22 AM	#18
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,534	Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0 You're right. Not just a bit of self-selecting samplage, as I read your post, but 100 percent. And it was somewhat unfair to those who go right and stay right. In my personal experience however, those who don't die have not gone on to be much more than barely sustained junkies. As for the hospital? You are correct that all I see are people at their worst, and that makes me uninterested in dealing with certain personality types. I should say, but for my decision never to use heroin or cocaine, I might've been a sick, shaky addict myself. If pot had an equal potential for addiction I might have been one... Fair 'nuff.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

25th March 2009, 11:36 AM	#19
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Originally Posted by Cleon I understand that addicts (particularly destructive ones) have a habit of being less than truthful. I don't discount anything you or Magnifico are saying. But rather than get more information and determine whether or not the acquaintance really had cleaned himself up (which can and does happen), Cainkane just blew him off. So unless there's a bit of information Cainkane didn't provide, I'll stand by my opinion that he acted like a jerk. Suit yourself but I'm the type of person who believes there should be negative consequences to negative behaviours. It really doesn't matter to me if he has cleaned himself up. After the way he acted I feel he doesn't deserve the friendship of a person who has walked a straight line all of my life. I'm not perfect but I've never been one to hurt and use someone who has done nothing to me. When I had him arrested for breaking and entering my home and stealing my TV and some money etc a neighbor saw him and called police. I got my property back and he was put on probation. I told him to get out of my life and stay out. He came back 30 years later and I told him to stay away from me. He's stuck with my initial decision.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

25th March 2009, 12:46 PM	#20
Xulld Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 1,125	Sounds like you had your answers before you made this thread.

25th March 2009, 01:14 PM	#21
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	There may be a slight difference between, "guy was high all the time so I quit hanging around him and still don't want to even though he's clean" and "guy committed crimes of aggression against me and my loved ones and I don't feel comfortable resuming that relationship"
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

25th March 2009, 01:25 PM	#22
Uncayimmy Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 7,485	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Suit yourself but I'm the type of person who believes there should be negative consequences to negative behaviours. It really doesn't matter to me if he has cleaned himself up. After the way he acted I feel he doesn't deserve the friendship of a person who has walked a straight line all of my life. I'm not perfect but I've never been one to hurt and use someone who has done nothing to me. When I had him arrested for breaking and entering my home and stealing my TV and some money etc a neighbor saw him and called police. I got my property back and he was put on probation. I told him to get out of my life and stay out. He came back 30 years later and I told him to stay away from me. He's stuck with my initial decision. Sounds like you're jealous and have a need to feel superior to this person, who was once your friend.
Uncayimmy Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 7,485

25th March 2009, 01:30 PM	#23
Tiktaalik Half True Scotsperson Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,989	You have a right to be friends or not be friends with whoever you want and you don't have to have a reason. If a person makes you uncomfortable and you don't get anything out of the relationship, why be friends? It's nice to give people chances and it's nice to try & help them, but it's not a requirement (unless you work in certain jobs).

25th March 2009, 01:34 PM	#24
Miss_Kitt Zombie Horse of Homeopathy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Lesser Seattle Posts: 3,625	Boy, this thread is loaded for me. I come from a family with alcoholism in the older generations and drug use in the younger. So I've walked on several of the "how do I handle him/her now?" roads with people much closer than friends. First of all, cainkane, you do not ever have to open up yourself and your family/friends to a former abuser--whether the excuse for the abuse was drug-related, or not. You have the right to protect yourself. You don't need to apologize for refusing to take that risk, any more than you have to apologize for refusing to drive on a road that you consider too icy--even if some other people are comfortable with driving on it. You are responsible for making the choices on whom you choose to trust and deal with; and you must be (and seem to have no problem being) willing to live with the results of those choices. On the other hand, if this person had/has positive qualities that make their company worth having, you could try the "Okay, let's meet for coffee on Thursday lunchtime" approach. That's a big If, and I recognize that. I have a former friend whom I am civil to if our paths cross, but I'd never turn my back on her for 14 seconds. (And she didn't even use anything, she's just a head case.) I have, conversely, regained a relationship with my brother, who still drinks more than I'd like, and probably gets high sometimes as well. But he has managed to get himself employed, a stable living situation, and a consistant phone number for several years, so I know this isn't just one more "I'm different now" talking. I cherish every time I hear his voice, because when he's straight he's one of the coolest people I've ever met. It's one of those sticky, unhappy, "it all depends" situations in life. There are no simple answers. That you have a history of him doing awful things to those he claimed to love and value gives you some good impetus to say, "No thanks." Don't feel bad about venting, either! Sometimes all you can do about these things is vent. You have just been reminded of a lot of bad memories, and of the loss of a friend you once had. That can stir up a lot of mixed feelings. I belong to the "talk through it" school of thought, can you tell? Regards, Miss Kitt @ Magnifico: I know where you're coming from. My sister is an ICU/CCU nurse, and the amount of money, time, medicine and knowledge they spend on people who are going to do their level best to kill themselves when they get out can make you weep. She, like you, gives them the best medical care she can--but because of her professionalism, not because they have a warm place in her heart. I see nothing wrong with drawing those lines, in medicine or any other field!
	__________________ It's much better to live an honest life than a delusional one -- desertgal Magic thinking is a lead personal floatation device. It looks really reassuring, but it will drag you down--whatthebutlersaw

25th March 2009, 04:58 PM	#25
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Originally Posted by UncaYimmy Sounds like you're jealous and have a need to feel superior to this person, who was once your friend. I am superior to this person I once called friend. I'm not a thief and I never have been. I'm not obnoxious and I never have been. If I had had a wife and a child be damned if I would drink and pill pop it away. By the way his wife and daughter won't have anything to do with him either. I'm not entirely sure what all he did to them but to them he's history also. No one wants him around. His younger brother won't speak to him. I don't know what he did to him either. I do know that he was able to retire form the government working as an army chef after he left the army. He then became a butcher for a supermarket so he is gainfully employed but be that as it may. I never want to speak to him again and I told him so.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

25th March 2009, 05:01 PM	#26
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,534	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 I'm not obnoxious and I never have been.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

25th March 2009, 06:44 PM	#27
shandyjan Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N/W England Posts: 2,111	I can forgive people, but it doesnt mean I'd want to socialise with them years down the line. Not only for past mistrusts, but you also change yourself over the years and don't always want to go there again. Although maybe a few phone chats or emails would be ok., as I'm always interested to know what someone from my past is now up to. The experiences I had with heroin addicts, 3 or 4 I knew died, two of them being nice people before their addictions. My friends partner was a speed user and turned psychotic, I wonder what happened to him but I would always have mistrust as he did some nasty things. I wouldnt give him my address even now.

25th March 2009, 06:58 PM	#28
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 7,958	Originally Posted by Cleon Sure. There's nothing requiring that Cainkain talk to him. I still maintain that blowing him off without getting more information is acting like a jerk, though. Or simply self-preservation. I come from a family full of addicts, mostly junkies. Seen too many others. I have one uncle who got cleaned up, turned his life around, and is now an addiction-recovery counsellor. Have a lot of other relatives who are still junkies. I'm always suspicious of "recovered" addicts, because I've seen too many of them destroy their families. I have a "cleaned up" cousin who is currently in jail because of his addiction, ruining a decent career and alienating the entire non-junkie contingent of his family in the process. Even when actually not using, too many "recovered" addicts are still manipulative bastards who care only about themselves.
	__________________ "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

25th March 2009, 07:54 PM	#29
godofpie Chief Cook & Bottle Washer Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: south of the mason dixon Posts: 958	This thread needs a group hug: If you want to know what an AA'er thinks, PM me.
	__________________ king of all that is pizza _{"You only find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out" - Warren Buffett} _{"Gods don't write books, people do. Gods create Universes. When you refuse to study the Universe, but choose instead to study a book, you are studying the work of men, not God." -Brainache}

25th March 2009, 09:17 PM	#30
politas Pirate King Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 1,081	There comes a point where past actions can poison the well sufficiently that a friendship is just not possible. Even if this guy has completely cleaned up and is now a different person, Cainkane is likely to always be wondering when he'll flip out and start acting up again. I think reformed junkies are much better off finding new friends so they can build relationships that don't have that kind of messed up past.
	__________________ Myk Rational Capital Podcast

25th March 2009, 09:51 PM	#31
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,334	Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0 With you to a point, Cleon. I can speak to experience with lots of addicts and their behavior though... it's rarely worth it. And if the guy really has cleaned up and is a better man, great on him. But he is also prepared to accept that the friendships he took a crap on, no matter how long ago, may be gone and not redeemable. Acceptance isn't just a step in dealing with death... IAWTC. So much so that I can't add to it, just repeat it.
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,334	__________________ This is a sig file. Does anyone even read this stuff?

26th March 2009, 10:54 AM	#32
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879	At first I thought he sounded like a jerk, too, until he pointed out what the guy had done, in which case, I'd go so far as to call him a fool for befriending someone like that again.
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,879

26th March 2009, 04:54 PM	#33
Autolite Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,489	I will afford Cainkane1 the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes one has no other option than to cut someone out of their life if they are a destructive influence. I've been there and done that with family. It's not an easy thing to do. In any case, it's been my observation and experience that people never really change anyway. At best, they just become better at masking their true nature...
	__________________ "When they come around sweet talkin', don't listen" - Willie Stark

26th March 2009, 05:00 PM	#34
Whiplash Acting like a maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Shipwrecked and Comatose Posts: 5,389	I think some may being too hard on Cainkane1. But he probably should have given more info in about the problems in the initial post to avoid it. But I have at least one similar experience with a "friend". He was a drunk. Bad. We were friends for a long time. But as his alcholism got worse, so did his behavior. Stealing. Lying. Cheating. And saying some awful and vicious things to me when he was drunk. Many times. One day when he called me, I laid it on the line and told him I didn't want to be friends anymore. He was sad and apologetic, but I told him firmly I was done. I haven't talked to him in at least 10 years. If he called me now and said he'd changed, I'd also be reluctant to give him a second chance. Ever. But I can also recognize that at least part of it is my own ego not wanting to let go of the "hurt" he did to me at different times.
	__________________ Ken Buddha.. a smile, two bangs, and a religion. On the ricochet.. it's gonna hit you. It's always funny until someone gets hurt. Last edited by Whiplash; 26th March 2009 at 05:03 PM.

26th March 2009, 08:57 PM	#35
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 7,958	Originally Posted by Whiplash If he called me now and said he'd changed, I'd also be reluctant to give him a second chance. Ever. But I can also recognize that at least part of it is my own ego not wanting to let go of the "hurt" he did to me at different times. I've given junkies the benefit of the doubt before, after they'd gone through rehab and were supposedly reformed and sober. I got burned for it (not badly, fortunately, but that's because I took precautions to limit the amount of damage that could be done). I won't do it again unless I have a very very good reason to believe that they've truly straightened themselves out. So far, I've only seen that happen once.
	__________________ "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon