Would Religion still continue if....

Ask yourself this if god existed and proof of him/them(covering all religions) was found beyond reasonable doubt. How many would continue to worship him/them if him/they turned out to be for example a giant cockroach, a mass murdering cannibalistic light-bulb

a)Would religion still continue or end there and then?

b) How would those who are religious feel

c) Would any continue to worship

d) Would the religious hierarchy deny this was their god and dismiss and ignore all evidence to the contrary?



Views

[Aquila_ka_Hecate]

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a giant cockroach, a mass murdering cannibalistic light-bulb

As far as I'm concerned, hetheyit might as well be.
I can't see any difference.

As for the religious, this

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) Would the religious hierarchy deny this was their god and dismiss and ignore all evidence to the contrary?

seems to me the most likely reaction.Think how many lives are built on those foundations.

But as for the poll, I'm thick this afternoon and I can't quite understand the question.
Is there some way to elucidate, please?

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Originally posted by Aquila_ka_Hecate


As far as I'm concerned, hetheyit might as well be.
I can't see any difference.

As for the religious, this




seems to me the most likely reaction.Think how many lives are built on those foundations.

But as for the poll, I'm thick this afternoon and I can't quite understand the question.
Is there some way to elucidate, please?

Would religion cease and what would happen if it did, then hit one of the option numbered 1-6 .


So what you're saying is relgious worship of a god that was presumed to be of a human form would continue if it turned out it was not?

[Aquila_ka_Hecate]

Thanks Pie.

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So what you're saying is relgious worship of a god that was presumed to be of a human form would continue if it turned out it was not?

Quasi anthropomorphic at least, don't you think?
There's something deeply ingrained in the human psyche concerning religion.

I don't know that it's actually necessary to us, but it's a little like a habit we can't kick

I heard someone describe religion as a psychosis once.
He had much to go on, of course, although as long as a majority of people subscribe to the idea I'm not sure that it can legitimately be called a mental disease.
I'd like to, though.

[Graham]

I think you'll find you've mis-spelled "Planet X" in your poll. I wouldn't normally comment on that but, really, - "X", I mean, how hard is that?

That said, I think most people ignore blatent proof that their religions are a bunch of crap every day, why would one more make any difference?

I therefore voted that they would ignore it.

Graham

Quote:

Originally posted by Aquila_ka_Hecate
Thanks Pie.



Quasi anthropomorphic at least, don't you think?
There's something deeply ingrained in the human psyche concerning religion.

I don't know that it's actually necessary to us, but it's a little like a habit we can't kick

I heard someone describe religion as a psychosis once.
He had much to go on, of course, although as long as a majority of people subscribe to the idea I'm not sure that it can legitimately be called a mental disease.
I'd like to, though.

lol @ mental disease and how apt how true.

Yes the human urge to have to believe we are not alone and there has to be a higher entity that put us here and is protecting us. sad. we got lucky in the primordial soup and bingo here we all are now. Nothing to do with religion of god.

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Originally posted by Graham
I think you'll find you've mis-spelled "Planet X" in your poll. I wouldn't normally comment on that but, really, - "X", I mean, how hard is that?

That said, I think most people ignore blatent proof that their religions are a bunch of crap every day, why would one more make any difference?

I therefore voted that they would ignore it.

Graham

Woops you know what I mean

Teach me to have a major catspit on the wire while polling with the ex grrrr


sorry sob sob Planet ex is planet X )

Facts and Religion do not mix.
when a religion is shown to have been based on faulty premises/ lust for power/ cheap trickery/ imagination/ hallucination, True believing adherants will explain away the problems and continue in the faith. For a quick example, consider Mormonism (and all its offshoots), Mo Berg's children of god, etc.
If a god was proved to exist, it would be denied by the adherants to any other version of god and explained away as a demon/ devil/ test of faith etc.

FF

[Yahzi]

If you think about it, one of the goals of religion is to control the divine. The Bible is taken to be a contract that binds God to certain rules and regulations.

I can't decide if the presence of an actual god would a) make more people try to control him, or b) show that controlling him wasn't working, and thus people would stop trying.

[Franko]

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Yes the human urge to have to believe we are not alone and there has to be a higher entity that put us here and is protecting us. sad. we got lucky in the primordial soup and bingo here we all are now. Nothing to do with religion of god.

Wishful thinking.

Like I told you the other day Darling. You are an Algorithm. So is TLOP (God), except TLOP is a much bigger more complex algorithm. TLOP writes your program in far less time then it takes You to write TLOP’s program. You want to pretend that universes magically appear and then miraculously produce you for no discernable reason, then You are the one with the magical religious thinking.

Even if you want to pretend otherwise.

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Originally posted by Franko


Wishful thinking.

Like I told you the other day Darling. You are an Algorithm. So is TLOP (God), except TLOP is a much bigger more complex algorithm. TLOP writes your program in far less time then it takes You to write TLOP’s program. You want to pretend that universes magically appear and then miraculously produce you for no discernible reason, then You are the one with the magical religious thinking.

Even if you want to pretend otherwise.

Darling Franko you smooth talking love-atom

Hypothetically speaking If I am a program for sake of arguments, why would I want to worship another program?


Sniff I wanted to be a miracle born in soup sniff.

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahzi
If you think about it, one of the goals of religion is to control the divine. The Bible is taken to be a contract that binds God to certain rules and regulations.

I can't decide if the presence of an actual god would a) make more people try to control him, or b) show that controlling him wasn't working, and thus people would stop trying.

I thought it was the other way round, the bible binded man to obey the rules and regualtions imposed by supposed god?

[Franko]

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Darling Franko you smooth talking love-atom

Ohhh Pie there is something irresistible about You. If only it weren’t for that “evil-A-Theist” thingy …

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Hypothetically speaking If I am a program for sake of arguments, why would I want to worship another program?

Hypothetically speaking if you are a daughter (for the sake of argument), why would you want to be kind and loyal to your Mother?

I mean seriously? … what did that bee-atch ever do for You?

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Sniff I wanted to be a miracle born in soup sniff.

You still were, it’s just that it’s a soup of Time and Energy not your imaginary little playmate … “the matter”.

[fidiot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko


Wishful thinking.

Like I told you the other day Darling. You are an Algorithm. So is TLOP (God), except TLOP is a much bigger more complex algorithm. TLOP writes your program in far less time then it takes You to write TLOP’s program. You want to pretend that universes magically appear and then miraculously produce you for no discernable reason, then You are the one with the magical religious thinking.

Even if you want to pretend otherwise.

This belongs to a new thread. If you want to argue about the laws of physics, start a new thread. Now answer the original question or be quiet.

[Franko]

What's your definition of a "Religion" f-idiot?

Ohhh wait ... let me guess, any system of dogmatic metaphysical beliefs other than your precious A-Theism?

[Peter Jenkins]

Quote:

Originally posted by Pie
Ask yourself this if god existed and proof of him/them(covering all religions) was found beyond reasonable doubt. How many would continue to worship him/them if him/they turned out to be for example a giant cockroach, a mass murdering cannibalistic light-bulb

a)Would religion still continue or end there and then?

b) How would those who are religious feel

c) Would any continue to worship

d) Would the religious hierarchy deny this was their god and dismiss and ignore all evidence to the contrary?



Views

An Interesting question. I think the point about Mormonism was quite apt. Mormonism is a religion which has been thoroughly debunked time and time again. Joseph Smith Jnr, has been shown to be a cheat, a fraud and a liar, yet it is still one of the worlds growing religions (12 million+, and increasing daily).

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Facts and Religion do not mix.

Rather, I would say "Facts either support your religion - or are wrong"
Peter

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Originally posted by Franko


Ohh Pie there is something irresistible about You. If only it weren’t for that “evil-A-Theist” thingy …



Hypothetically speaking if you are a daughter (for the sake of argument), why would you want to be kind and loyal to your Mother?

I mean seriously? … what did that bee-atch ever do for You?



You still were, it’s just that it’s a soup of Time and Energy not your imaginary little playmate … “the matter”.

Franko your starting to scare me lol, your making me question myself.

Hey can't a chick have a dark evil side

Hypothetically speaking, it' one of the unwritten laws you follow respect your elders blah blah. What did that hypothetical bee*atch do for me , raised me fed me clothed me and made me go to school. Dang it


So matter is imaginary? talk me through it slowly, show me it through your eyes, show me my choice of atheism is a bad call on my part?


You say I am an atheist, that's bad in your eyes. So what are you? If god doesn't exist doesn't that make you the same as me? Explain simply.

[Franko]

Ms. Pie,

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Franko your starting to scare me lol, your making me question myself.

hehe ... Welcome to the R & P forum Darling.

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Hey can't a chick have a dark evil side

Why do you think us Men find you Women so irresistible in the first place?

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Hypothetically speaking, it' one of the unwritten laws you follow respect your elders blah blah. What did that hypothetical bee*atch do for me , raised me fed me clothed me and made me go to school. Dang it

My point is you have a very similar type of relationship with “God”. But let me explain what I mean …

Try and imagine what it must have been like when you were first born – when you were an infant. How do you suppose you perceived your mother then? Are you sure that you even perceived her as an entity like Yourself? Compared to you as a newborn, your mother possessed “magical powers” that were far beyond you ability to comprehend. She could walk, and talk. She had the ability to make matter appear and disappear at will. Even as you grew older I bet you perceived you mother as a semi-omnipotent being. I bet that you believed that if your mother did not do something it wasn’t because She couldn’t do it … it was because She didn’t want to do it.

For all intent and purposes “God” has a 13 billion year evolutionary head start on you. For you to perceive Her as She really is, is analogous to an ant trying to perceive that a Human is a fellow living being.

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So matter is imaginary? talk me through it slowly, show me it through your eyes, show me my choice of atheism is a bad call on my part?

In a manner of speaking – Yes – “matter” is imaginary, or more accurately, the “matter” is not as real as You or I.

Okay … A-Theism is not what you think. A-Theism is just another mystical religion with it’s own deity and system of dogma. The “God” of A-Theism is “free willy” (Belief in Free will). In order to be an A-Theist you have to believe in some form of “free will”. It is impossible for a person to call themselves an A-Theist and have any consistency in their beliefs at all without first asserting the existence of these “magical powers”. You see, if you don’t have “free will”, then Fatalism is True, and if Fatalism is True, then that is your evidence for a conscious “God”.

And what is the evidence for “free willy” … NONE. In fact all of the evidence argues against “free will”.

Atoms obey the Laws of Physics (TLOP)
You are made of atoms.
You obey TLOP.

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

In the same way that YOU are more conscious than CAR, TLOP must be more conscious than YOU. More conscious things control less conscious things. To claim otherwise is analogous to claiming that when YOU go for a ride in your CAR, your CAR has more “free will” (is more in control) than YOU are!

I say that A-Theism is “Mystical” Religion because one cannot be an A-Theist without a strong (yet typically hidden) belief in “magic”. The basis for the A-Theists magical “free willy” powers is typically an incomprehensible appeal to the magic of “Quantum Randomness”. Essentially this boils down to the A-Theist claiming that the present is not based on the past, and the future not being based on the present (magic). As if this weren’t ridiculous enough, A-Theists seem to think that claiming the entire universe and complete functioning set of The Laws of Physics (TLOP) just magically popped out of the Void one day is a “Scientific” claim. There is nothing scientific about claiming that anything magically appears out of nowhere. Claiming that the entire Universe magically appeared and calling it “Scientific” is simply delusional. That is a complete and total rejection of Science in my mind.

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You say I am an atheist, that's bad in your eyes. So what are you? If god doesn't exist doesn't that make you the same as me? Explain simply.

I believe in a Deity. I worship the Logical Goddess (The Goddess of Skepticism).

I am a Logical Deist. Logical Deism (LD) is a non-dogmatic, non-mystical belief system based on Logic and Natural Law. LD operates under the premise that reality is completely logical, objective, and ultimately completely comprehensible. It is a highly optimistic worldview. We are kind of like Anti-Atheists.

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Originally posted by Franko
Ms. Pie,hehe ... Welcome to the R & P forum Darling.

X Ty Babes X

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Why do you think us Men find you Women so irresistible in the first place?

Hee hee Franko you dark horse Too right mans place is to worship and lay on the ground for us us women to walk are dark sides all over

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My point is you have a very similar type of relationship with “God”. But let me explain what I mean …

Try and imagine what it must have been like when you were first born – when you were an infant. How do you suppose you perceived your mother then? Are you sure that you even perceived her as an entity like Yourself? Compared to you as a newborn, your mother possessed “magical powers” that were far beyond you ability to comprehend. She could walk, and talk. She had the ability to make matter appear and disappear at will. Even as you grew older I bet you perceived you mother as a semi-omnipotent being. I bet that you believed that if your mother did not do something it wasn't’t because She could’t do it … it was because She didn't’t want to do it.

Ahh but as a baby the world revolves around me, I manipulate the adults to do my bidding don't I? As I grow up that idealism is shattered as reality kicks in as I find that I was not center of the universe I was a helpless being. That alone then makes me(hypothetically) push the boundaries to how far I can go.

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For all intent and purposes “God” has a 13 billion year evolutionary head start on you. For you to perceive Her as She really is, is analogous to an ant trying to perceive that a Human is a fellow living being.

True thought I still wouldn't acknowledge the *God* part more like environment and biology had a head start. Perception what I perceive as real may and is often different from others, yes that part I do understand. Does my nonacceptance of certain things blind what I do see is a good question to ask?

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In a manner of speaking – Yes – “matter” is imaginary, or more accurately, the “matter” is not as real as You or I.

True matter is in the form we view it as so I suppose there could be a doubt there. We only know it is thee as somebody has told us its there before hand. There lies another quandary.

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OK … A-Theism is not what you think. A-Theism is just another mystical religion with it’s own deity and system of dogma. The “God” of A-Theism is “free willy” (Belief in Free will). In order to be an A-Theist you have to believe in some form of “free will”. It is impossible for a person to call themselves an A-Theist and have any consistency in their beliefs at all without first asserting the existence of these “magical powers”. You see, if you don’t have “free will”, then Fatalism is True, and if Fatalism is True, then that is your evidence for a conscious “God”.

And what is the evidence for “free willy” … NONE. In fact all of the evidence argues against “free will”.

Stop saying free willy you keep getingt me all excited

Now free will, does it exist for the best part no it is limited.

Dogma??

Explain fatalism

But why *god terms* why does it have to be a god not a natural thing?

[quote]Atoms obey the Laws of Physics (TLOP)
You are made of atoms.
You obey TLOP.

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

In the same way that YOU are more conscious than CAR, TLOP must be more conscious than YOU. More conscious things control less conscious things. To claim otherwise is analogous to claiming that when YOU go for a ride in your CAR, your CAR has more “free will” (is more in control) than YOU are![/quote see now this really confuses me. the law of physics TLOP?? why does it have to be conscious?

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I say that A-Theism is “Mystical” Religion because one cannot be an A-Theist without a strong (yet typically hidden) belief in “magic”. The basis for the A-Theists magical “free willy” powers is typically an incomprehensible appeal to the magic of “Quantum Randomness”. Essentially this boils down to the A-Theist claiming that the present is not based on the past, and the future not being based on the present (magic). As if this weren't’t ridiculous enough, A-Theists seem to think that claiming the entire universe and complete functioning set of The Laws of Physics (TLOP) just magically popped out of the Void one day is a “Scientific” claim. There is nothing scientific about claiming that anything magically appears out of nowhere. Claiming that the entire Universe magically appeared and calling it “Scientific” is simply delusional. That is a complete and total rejection of Science in my mind.

you and the free willy stoppit

why is it? Confused again. Science explains things ok we dot know how the universe appeared but there are good theories to explain it's beginning?

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I believe in a Deity. I worship the Logical Goddess (The Goddess of Skepticism).

I am skeptical but also remain open minded on something too, perhaps that is why I get confused so much

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I am a Logical Deist. Logical Deism (LD) is a non-dogmatic, non-mystical belief system based on Logic and Natural Law. LD operates under the premise that reality is completely logical, objective, and ultimately completely comprehensible. It is a highly optimistic worldview. We are kind of like Anti-Atheists.

Need more info, logic yes I understand, but you use god that makes me think religion and there fore contradicts atheism, confused again.

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
And what is the evidence for “free will” … NONE. In fact all of the evidence argues against “free will”.

Atoms obey the Laws of Physics (TLOP)
You are made of atoms.
You obey TLOP.

Since this thread has become a place for Franko to be open about his beliefs, may I ask a question?

In my understanding of science, neurology especially, our thought processes are governed by neurons - chemical reactions, pathways built up over time, reinforced with use, others neglected wither and are replaced by new ones. These form memories, experiences and together lead us to act in certain ways when faced with new challenges/decisions. This is my defintion of free will.

Franko - you obviously know more about physics and neurobiology than I - can you explain to me exactly how the laws of physics control this process? How does Heisenburg's Uncertainty principle fit in with this? How can the course of neural development be preordained? Given especially that biology tends to be not 100% one way or another - gradients of development "factors" (homeo-box containing proteins and the like), graded gene responses, etc.

Franko,

What you believe the logical deity part etc, is it like what the book of the Kabbalah/Zohar teaches?

The teaching of invisible universal laws like a spiritual equivalent of gravity thing? When you meditate you reach a divine light which helps you understand these laws and so improve your life ?

[Franko]

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Pie:
The teaching of invisible universal laws like a spiritual equivalent of gravity thing?

I certainly understand where Lucus came up with the idea of “the Force”.

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When you meditate you reach a divine light which helps you understand these laws and so improve your life ?

I’ve heard people describe it like that.

What’s the Source of the Truth, Pie? Is it some random non-conscious force, or is it something much, much more like us, only older and wiser … more evolved?

A-Theist always want god to appear out of the clouds surrounded by angels and radiant light. I guess She can, but Gods like the DM in D&D, She doesn’t physically manifest as an entity like us in this reality, because 1) She’s generating this reality (She “is” the reality (her mind projects it)), and 2) because Her physically manifesting would rather defeat the entire purpose of the Universe being created in the first place (it would make us all conformist).

[Franko]

Quote:

Penrich:
... can you explain to me exactly how the laws of physics control this process? How does Heisenburg's Uncertainty principle fit in with this? How can the course of neural development be preordained? Given especially that biology tends to be not 100% one way or another - gradients of development "factors" (homeo-box containing proteins and the like), graded gene responses, etc.

Let me just set you straight on the heisenberg magical uncertainty principle real quick. Quantum “magic” is a myth. It doesn’t exist. First of all, particles only “seem” to do their “magic” when no one is looking. As soon as some one looks, then they are as real and as solid as you or me.

Ohhh, but wait! the A-Theists cry. You forget about the Heinyberg unsupernaturalty principle! They don’t really look solid at all you can only see position, or velocity, but you can’t see both. But actually they are wrong, very wrong. You take a picture of the particles, and then you look at the picture, and low and behold you just blasted hienyberg a new and larger heinyberg, because in that image is far more certainty than Heiny or John Bell says is possible to ever know.

It’s just like Einstein said, The Goddess does not play dice with the universe. She just uses Her own imagination.

As to your questions regarding genetics. Our DNA is like a “body program” the Goddess has been working on for a long, long time. She is making constant improvements to the overall algorithm. Your body comes from the LG, it’s not you, it’s just your “character”, it’s like the clothes you wear while you’re here in this universe. The real You is your Soul, your graviton, your core algorithm. Your Soul manifest in your genetics as “random” mutations in the DNA sequence. But where your Soul really manifest is in the personality. It’s far more magnified at that point.

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko


I certainly understand where Lucas came up with the idea of “the Force”.



I’ve heard people describe it like that.

What’s the Source of the Truth, Pie? Is it some random non-conscious force, or is it something much, much more like us, only older and wiser … more evolved?

A-Theist always want god to appear out of the clouds surrounded by angels and radiant light. I guess She can, but Gods like the DM in D&D, She does'nt’t physically manifest as an entity like us in this reality, because 1) She’s generating this reality (She “is” the reality (her mind projects it)), and 2) because Her physically manifesting would rather defeat the entire purpose of the Universe being created in the first place (it would make us all conformist).

Lucas the force lol got it


More evolved more conscious? Isn't all consciousness random?

Why she?

Sounds like we are her dreams?

What you say sounds like the Kabbalah teaching similar law and invisible laws gravity etc.

[Franko]

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Princess Pie:
More evolved more conscious? Isn't all consciousness random?

In the sense that you and I were lucky enough to be born humans instead of dogs, cows, or worms. But who knows … on the scale of Eternity … ?

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Why she?

What makes you think it’s a he?

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Sounds like we are her dreams?

That’s the Eastern way of looking at it, but it is not accurate, and I believe it leads to conformity. Gravitons (individual self-aware consciousnesses), Time-aware entities are all intrinsically the same. We all share a common core algorithm. She’s definitely way above us on the pyramid of reality, but we are inherently just as solid as She is.

But you could look at yourself in the same light. You have good memes (good ideas) and bad memes (bad ideas) inside your head, and those memes are like individual entities in some regard, and You are like the Goddess of that universe, you are the one who will pass ultimate judgment over those memes, declaring which memes get their autonomy, and which memes are consigned to languish in the Abyss and be forgotten.

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What you say sounds like the Kabbalah teaching similar law and invisible laws gravity etc

According to LD, Gravity is the unifying, or constant force through out the entire Omniverse. In other words, if there were different Universes all of the laws of physics could be altered in the different universes, but not Gravity.

My view... if god(s) was/were proven to exist, could there possibly be anything more important? I'd become a believer, if not a worshipper.

[Franko]

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My view... if god(s) was/were proven to exist, could there possibly be anything more important? I'd become a believer, if not a worshipper.

You seem to be doing a good job of believing in "free willy" right now, and there is no evidence for "free willy" what-so-ever.

Atoms obey the Laws of Physics.
You are made of atoms.
You obey The laws of Physics.

How can you worship a god ("free willy") that clearly doesn't even exist?

You're worshipping the wrong deity, my friend.

Quote:

Originally posted by Thorin LungHammer
My view... if god(s) was/were proven to exist, could there possibly be anything more important? I'd become a believer, if not a worshipper.

Why TLH if it was proven?

I didnt think he either unsexed was in my mind.


No memes are bad, dont meme me


Ahhh penny is dropping slowly its making sense sort of I can see what you mean.

[Franko]

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Pie:
I didnt think he either unsexed was in my mind.

Ohhh, my goddess … you SkeptiChicks are simply to delectable for mere words.

Spin (Gender) is an intrinsic property of all gravitons. Viewed from one level in the hierarchy it is definitely a binary option – it is either Positive, or Negative. But once you rise about a certain base level Spin manifest as a Sequence. It’s a range – a scale. Above a mean value (0, or “Neutral Spin”) you have Positive, and below that same mean you have Negative.

The LG has a Positive Spin.

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No memes are bad, dont meme me

Anytime you exchange any comprehensible information with any other consciousness you are memeing and being memed. Memes are like packets of information (quanta) than Gravitons exchange. And technically speaking, Gravitons (individual consciousnesses) are made of memes.

(Meme = an encapsulated idea)

There are plenty of “bad memes”. There are memes that are downright “Evil”. And they are evil by any logically consistent definition of that term. Look … this universe is like a “system”, and that system was based on a simpler previous system. Now when this “newer” system was created/designed someone made improvements on the old system, but we were still stuck with the old data as the starting point, and some of that data was bad (False). The new system is designed to sniff out and eliminate that bad data, and correct flaws in the overall algorithm, but that doesn’t change the fact that there is still bad data in the system.

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[Gravity …] Ahhh penny is dropping slowly its making sense sort of I can see what you mean.

People go from one extreme to the other, their algorithm is cycling. Things may not seem constant, it may seem that reality cannot possibly be consistent over Time, but there is a fundamental constant that stretches across Time and unifies Eternity. It’s our way of keeping the good ideas (memes) as we move along.

How do you describe your metaphysical stance Pie? At first I thought you were an A-Theist, but now I wonder if you more likely label yourself Agnostic or Buddhist beyond the universe of this forum?

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Originally posted by Franko


You seem to be doing a good job of believing in "free willy" right now, and there is no evidence for "free willy" what-so-ever.

Atoms obey the Laws of Physics.
You are made of atoms.
You obey The laws of Physics.

How can you worship a god ("free willy") that clearly doesn't even exist?

You're worshipping the wrong deity, my friend.

When I was young, my mother used to knock on my door and tell me, "Your record's skipping again." whenever I listened to my Philip Glass LPs.

Frank, your record's skipping again...

[Franko]

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When I was young, my mother used to knock on my door and tell me, "Your record's skipping again." whenever I listened to my Philip Glass LPs.

Frank, your record's skipping again...

I just wonder why some one would be so proud of looking down on Theists while holding a fundamental core belief based on far less evidence (None) then the very people you are so proud to look down on?

And then to repeat this utterance in a Skeptics forum of all places? It boggles the mind ... ? ? ?

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Originally posted by Franko


I just wonder why some one would be so proud of looking down on Theists while holding a fundamental core belief based on far less evidence (None) then the very people you are so proud to look down on?

And then to repeat this utterance in a Skeptics forum of all places? It boggles the mind ... ? ? ?

So now I'm 'proud of looking down on theists'... so proud... do we know each other? Have I ever expressed this pride to you?

Your rec- rec- rec- rec- rec(smack) record's skipping Franko.

I look at the concept of god skeptically. I have no 'fundamental core belief', rather, a lack of belief. I can't find any reason to believe in a god.

Franko, you often make me think. More often, however, I find your ad nauseum repetition of the same ideas boring. Gotta keep your potential audience interested Franko.

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Originally posted by Franko


Let me just set you straight on the heisenberg magical uncertainty principle real quick. Quantum ?magic? is a myth. It doesn?t exist. First of all, particles only ?seem? to do their ?magic? when no one is looking. As soon as some one looks, then they are as real and as solid as you or me.

Ohhh, but wait! the A-Theists cry. You forget about the Heinyberg unsupernaturalty principle! They don?t really look solid at all you can only see position, or velocity, but you can?t see both. But actually they are wrong, very wrong. You take a picture of the particles, and then you look at the picture, and low and behold you just blasted hienyberg a new and larger heinyberg, because in that image is far more certainty than Heiny or John Bell says is possible to ever know.

It?s just like Einstein said, The Goddess does not play dice with the universe. She just uses Her own imagination.

I am glad that you are so knowledgeable about physics (after all, it is your religion). Can you point me to a peer-reviewed journal in which the HUP and quantum mechanics is debunked?

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As to your questions regarding genetics. Our DNA is like a ?body program? the Goddess has been working on for a long, long time. She is making constant improvements to the overall algorithm. Your body comes from the LG, it?s not you, it?s just your ?character?, it?s like the clothes you wear while you?re here in this universe. The real You is your Soul, your graviton, your core algorithm. Your Soul manifest in your genetics as ?random? mutations in the DNA sequence. But where your Soul really manifest is in the personality. It?s far more magnified at that point.

I mentioned "genes" once right at the end. It was not a genetics question at all. I was asking about neurons (nerve cells, in the brain...).

Let me put it to you in this way then: Do the laws of physics (TLOP, as you call them) control every single aspect of biology? A simple YES or NO answer would suffice.

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Originally posted by Franko


Let me just set you straight on the heisenberg magical uncertainty principle real quick. Quantum ?magic? is a myth. It doesn?t exist. First of all, particles only ?seem? to do their ?magic? when no one is looking. As soon as some one looks, then they are as real and as solid as you or me.

Ohhh, but wait! the A-Theists cry. You forget about the Heinyberg unsupernaturalty principle! They don?t really look solid at all you can only see position, or velocity, but you can?t see both. But actually they are wrong, very wrong. You take a picture of the particles, and then you look at the picture, and low and behold you just blasted hienyberg a new and larger heinyberg, because in that image is far more certainty than Heiny or John Bell says is possible to ever know.

It?s just like Einstein said, The Goddess does not play dice with the universe. She just uses Her own imagination.

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Einstein was very unhappy about this apparent randomness in nature. His views were summed up in his famous phrase, 'God does not play dice'. He seemed to have felt that the uncertainty was only provisional: but that there was an underlying reality, in which particles would have well defined positions and speeds, and would evolve according to deterministic laws, in the spirit of Laplace. This reality might be known to God, but the quantum nature of light would prevent us seeing it, except through a glass darkly.

Einstein's view was what would now be called, a hidden variable theory. Hidden variable theories might seem to be the most obvious way to incorporate the Uncertainty Principle into physics. They form the basis of the mental picture of the universe, held by many scientists, and almost all philosophers of science. But these hidden variable theories are wrong. The British physicist, John Bell, who died recently, devised an experimental test that would distinguish hidden variable theories. When the experiment was carried out carefully, the results were inconsistent with hidden variables. Thus it seems that even God is bound by the Uncertainty Principle, and can not know both the position, and the speed, of a particle. So God does play dice with the universe. All the evidence points to him being an inveterate gambler, who throws the dice on every possible occasion.

From http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/dice.html (my emphasis)

Again - if you are going to say the HUP is false, I am going to need some very good evidence (but, you already know that, being a skeptic yourself).

[Franko]

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Penrich: (Skeptic)
Let me put it to you in this way then: Do the laws of physics (TLOP, as you call them) control every single aspect of biology? A simple YES or NO answer would suffice.

Depends upon what you specifically mean by “biology”.

If you are asking if TLOP decided what your body was going to look like – YES TLOP decided.

If you are asking if TLOP decides everything regarding your existence; if you are asking if TLOP created you utterly and entirely – the answer is NO.

If you are asking if TLOP is controlling your ultimate Fate – She’s judging it, but it’s your Fate.

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Einstein was very unhappy about this apparent randomness in nature. His views were summed up in his famous phrase, 'God does not play dice'. He seemed to have felt that the uncertainty was only provisional: but that there was an underlying reality, in which particles would have well defined positions and speeds, and would evolve according to deterministic laws, in the spirit of Laplace. This reality might be known to God, but the quantum nature of light would prevent us seeing it, except through a glass darkly.

Einstein's view was what would now be called, a hidden variable theory. Hidden variable theories might seem to be the most obvious way to incorporate the Uncertainty Principle into physics. They form the basis of the mental picture of the universe, held by many scientists, and almost all philosophers of science. But these hidden variable theories are wrong. The British physicist, John Bell, who died recently, devised an experimental test that would distinguish hidden variable theories. When the experiment was carried out carefully, the results were inconsistent with hidden variables.

Heisenberg was wrong, and then Bell compounded the error. There are two hidden variables – Time and Consciousness. Bell overlooked Both.

If you take a image of sub-atomic particles in a super-collider, then by examining the image you can determine both velocity and position well below the Heisenberg limit, and well below what John Bell swore was impossible! Essentially John Bell proved that you can’t know what the particle is going to do 100% accurately in the future, and based on an incomplete history of the particle you are observing in the present.

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Thus it seems that even God is bound by the Uncertainty Principle, and can not know both the position, and the speed, of a particle. So God does play dice with the universe. All the evidence points to him being an inveterate gambler, who throws the dice on every possible occasion.

Yeah, but I’ll tell you something, get your velocity up closer to the speed of light, and I wonder if things don’t start looking a whole lot more deterministic? It only looks like God is doing magic because Her hands are a lot quicker than your minds-eye.

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Originally posted by Franko


Depends upon what you specifically mean by ?biology?.

If you are asking if TLOP decided what your body was going to look like ? YES TLOP decided.

If you are asking if TLOP decides everything regarding your existence; if you are asking if TLOP created you utterly and entirely ? the answer is NO.

If you are asking if TLOP is controlling your ultimate Fate ? She?s judging it, but it?s your Fate.

No - it doesn't depend on what I specifically mean by biology. You claim

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Atoms obey the Laws of Physics.
You are made of atoms.
You obey The laws of Physics

All biological entities are made of atoms correct? Thus all of biology is decided by TLOP, correct?

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Originally posted by Franko
Heisenberg was wrong, and then Bell compounded the error. There are two hidden variables ? Time and Consciousness. Bell overlooked Both.

If you take a image of sub-atomic particles in a super-collider, then by examining the image you can determine both velocity and position well below the Heisenberg limit, and well below what John Bell swore was impossible! Essentially John Bell proved that you can?t know what the particle is going to do 100% accurately in the future, and based on an incomplete history of the particle you are observing in the present.

A reference for this please. I am not much of a physicist, so take it easy on me...

But are you not saying in this line "you can?t know what the particle is going to do 100% accurately in the future, and based on an incomplete history of the particle you are observing in the present. " That the HUP is correct - you cannot know what it will do in the future based on what you know about its past (or even present). I only have dull recollections of this stuff in my physics classes, but I thought that basically WAS the HUP?

Intersting as this is - it is actiually irrelevant to the main point of my questions which was how does the law of physics determine neurone function?

[Doctor X]

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Again - if you are going to say the HUP is false, I am going to need some very good evidence (but, you already know that, being a skeptic yourself).

Funny that he never provided it.

However, one could have predicted that, methinks.

--J.D.

Add to quote you from another ]thread (I'm having trouble keeping up with all of your posts!)

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You are just your physical brain, and your physical brain is simply made of atoms (chemicals) which obey the same laws of chemistry that ALL chemicals obey! How do the chemicals in your brain have any more ?free will? than some chemicals in a beaker somewhere?

And the timeless classic

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TLOP (God) controls YOU controls CAR

In summary, biology = chemistry = physics. All governed of course, by TLOP. Am I correct?