Secret trials breeds distrust of the government...

headscratcher4 · 31st March 2009, 06:38 AM

Revealed wisdom of Alberto B. Gonzales....talking about Mexico.

"Mexico should have oral, public trials of major organized crime figures rather than having trials consist of written testimony read by a judge behind closed doors."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/6346960.html

Irony meter slamming hard against limit.

Lonewulf · 31st March 2009, 06:49 AM

But they're crime figures, not civilian-clothed stateless terrorists! Totally different -- they actually have human rights.

WildCat · 31st March 2009, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

Revealed wisdom of Alberto B. Gonzales....talking about Mexico.

"Mexico should have oral, public trials of major organized crime figures rather than having trials consist of written testimony read by a judge behind closed doors."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/6346960.html

Irony meter slamming hard against limit.

If it's ironic you must have a secret trial in mind the US has conducted?

headscratcher4 · 31st March 2009, 07:15 AM

You got me...there were no secret trials. What Gonzo and Co. wanted was no trials...people just essentially disapearing into G'Tmo. The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming.

Upchurch · 31st March 2009, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming.

And that, my friend, does nothing but encourage trust of the government.

FireGarden · 1st April 2009, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

You got me...there were no secret trials. What Gonzo and Co. wanted was no trials...people just essentially disapearing into G'Tmo. The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming.

Don't pretend you were criticising Gonzo. You were criticising the entire legal/political system of America.

DC · 1st April 2009, 03:20 AM

quixotecoyote · 1st April 2009, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by FireGarden

Don't pretend you were criticising Gonzo. You were criticising the entire legal/political system of America.

Well, he can do whatever he wants to Gonzales, but we're not going to sit here and listen to him badmouth the United States of America!

(Ohhhh say can you seeeee)

headscratcher4 · 1st April 2009, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by FireGarden

Don't pretend you were criticising Gonzo. You were criticising the entire legal/political system of America.

Actually, I was criticising Gonzo. While there is much to criticize in the American legal system...as there would be in any vast establishment...there is much more that is worthy, ethical and to be proud of. Our system, for its many manifest failures, is a correcting system. It takes time, but wrongs are addressed. And, let us not forget that some of the greatest social progress made in the United States was made because courts could no longer sustain political fictions -- for example, "seperate but equal..."

But, back on topic, Gonzo, Addington, Cheney, Libby and Yoo are a particular problem. They are, by the very meaning of the word: subversive. I would argue dangerously so. However, if you want a good sense of how a system begins to right-itself, I would recommend the book "Angler." There is a great chapter in the book describing how the Bush/Chaney/Gonzo over-reach in the assertion of the so-called "unitary" executive and its right to, for example, spy domestically and without warrents, was checked. It wasn't checked by fringe activists, but by conservative lawyers who supported George Bush and his goals but who also understood that the law and power were being abused and drew a line in the sand, forcing the Bush Administration to begin reversing its over-reach.

WildCat · 1st April 2009, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by headscratcher4

You got me...there were no secret trials. What Gonzo and Co. wanted was no trials...people just essentially disapearing into G'Tmo. The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming.

Is the US allowed to detain enemy combatants during wartime in your opinion, yes or no?

DC · 1st April 2009, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Is the US allowed to detain enemy combatants during wartime in your opinion, yes or no?

not in the case of War on Terrorism, IMHO.

FireGarden · 1st April 2009, 11:28 AM

More power to you, HeadScratcher.

Lonewulf · 1st April 2009, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Is the US allowed to detain enemy combatants during wartime in your opinion, yes or no?

Yes.

Should a legal government detain people in foreign prisons, so that they may do to prisoners what would be illegal to do in their own home country, in prisons kept secret from its own citizens? Yes or no?

If American soldiers are imprisoned and tortured in secret prisons, do you find this acceptable treatment? Yes or no?

Is it alright to say "We do not torture", when it's obvious that you do indeed torture? Yes or no?

Is it alright to say "We do not torture", and declare a method under questioning as "not torture", after attacking another country for that very same action as "torture" decades earlier? (see: Waterboarding)

headscratcher4 · 1st April 2009, 01:03 PM

Yes...and we should also apply civilized standards to their incarceration...because, ultimately, the rule of law and respect for basic human rights is what separates us from the forces of chaos that would destroy us, IMO.

Our policies toward Gitmo detainees is the manifestation of that old delusion from the Vietnam war...we have to burn the village to save it. If what we end up with is ashes (our Constitution, our principles, our honor, our ethics, our rule of law destroyed), how is that different than what AlQeda wishes for us?

31st March 2009, 06:38 AM	#1
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	Secret trials breeds distrust of the government... Revealed wisdom of Alberto B. Gonzales....talking about Mexico. "Mexico should have oral, public trials of major organized crime figures rather than having trials consist of written testimony read by a judge behind closed doors." http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/6346960.html Irony meter slamming hard against limit.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

31st March 2009, 06:49 AM	#2
Lonewulf Humanistic Cyborg Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 10,380	But they're crime figures, not civilian-clothed stateless terrorists! Totally different -- they actually have human rights.
	__________________ Writing.com Account

31st March 2009, 07:15 AM	#4
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	You got me...there were no secret trials. What Gonzo and Co. wanted was no trials...people just essentially disapearing into G'Tmo. The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

1st April 2009, 02:09 AM	#6
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 You got me...there were no secret trials. What Gonzo and Co. wanted was no trials...people just essentially disapearing into G'Tmo. The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming. Don't pretend you were criticising Gonzo. You were criticising the entire legal/political system of America.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

1st April 2009, 03:20 AM	#7
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,646
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

31st March 2009, 06:55 AM	#3
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,998	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 Revealed wisdom of Alberto B. Gonzales....talking about Mexico. "Mexico should have oral, public trials of major organized crime figures rather than having trials consist of written testimony read by a judge behind closed doors." http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/6346960.html Irony meter slamming hard against limit. If it's ironic you must have a secret trial in mind the US has conducted?

31st March 2009, 07:20 AM	#5
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,423	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming. And that, my friend, does nothing but encourage trust of the government.

1st April 2009, 03:51 AM	#8
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by FireGarden Don't pretend you were criticising Gonzo. You were criticising the entire legal/political system of America. Well, he can do whatever he wants to Gonzales, but we're not going to sit here and listen to him badmouth the United States of America! (Ohhhh say can you seeeee)
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

1st April 2009, 06:05 AM	#9
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	Originally Posted by FireGarden Don't pretend you were criticising Gonzo. You were criticising the entire legal/political system of America. Actually, I was criticising Gonzo. While there is much to criticize in the American legal system...as there would be in any vast establishment...there is much more that is worthy, ethical and to be proud of. Our system, for its many manifest failures, is a correcting system. It takes time, but wrongs are addressed. And, let us not forget that some of the greatest social progress made in the United States was made because courts could no longer sustain political fictions -- for example, "seperate but equal..." But, back on topic, Gonzo, Addington, Cheney, Libby and Yoo are a particular problem. They are, by the very meaning of the word: subversive. I would argue dangerously so. However, if you want a good sense of how a system begins to right-itself, I would recommend the book "Angler." There is a great chapter in the book describing how the Bush/Chaney/Gonzo over-reach in the assertion of the so-called "unitary" executive and its right to, for example, spy domestically and without warrents, was checked. It wasn't checked by fringe activists, but by conservative lawyers who supported George Bush and his goals but who also understood that the law and power were being abused and drew a line in the sand, forcing the Bush Administration to begin reversing its over-reach.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

1st April 2009, 06:24 AM	#10
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,998	Originally Posted by headscratcher4 You got me...there were no secret trials. What Gonzo and Co. wanted was no trials...people just essentially disapearing into G'Tmo. The fact that there was any kind of a legal system at all, was pushed on them kicking and screaming. Is the US allowed to detain enemy combatants during wartime in your opinion, yes or no?

1st April 2009, 07:13 AM	#11
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,646	Originally Posted by WildCat Is the US allowed to detain enemy combatants during wartime in your opinion, yes or no? not in the case of War on Terrorism, IMHO.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

1st April 2009, 11:28 AM	#12
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	More power to you, HeadScratcher.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

1st April 2009, 12:52 PM	#13
Lonewulf Humanistic Cyborg Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 10,380	Originally Posted by WildCat Is the US allowed to detain enemy combatants during wartime in your opinion, yes or no? Yes. Should a legal government detain people in foreign prisons, so that they may do to prisoners what would be illegal to do in their own home country, in prisons kept secret from its own citizens? Yes or no? If American soldiers are imprisoned and tortured in secret prisons, do you find this acceptable treatment? Yes or no? Is it alright to say "We do not torture", when it's obvious that you do indeed torture? Yes or no? Is it alright to say "We do not torture", and declare a method under questioning as "not torture", after attacking another country for that very same action as "torture" decades earlier? (see: Waterboarding)
	__________________ Writing.com Account Last edited by Lonewulf; 1st April 2009 at 01:20 PM.

1st April 2009, 01:03 PM	#14
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,749	Yes...and we should also apply civilized standards to their incarceration...because, ultimately, the rule of law and respect for basic human rights is what separates us from the forces of chaos that would destroy us, IMO. Our policies toward Gitmo detainees is the manifestation of that old delusion from the Vietnam war...we have to burn the village to save it. If what we end up with is ashes (our Constitution, our principles, our honor, our ethics, our rule of law destroyed), how is that different than what AlQeda wishes for us?
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson