World Jewish population growth inconsistancies

Thunder · 31st March 2009, 06:23 PM

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../worldpop.html

Between the years 1900 and 1945, there was a steady growth for the world's Jewish community. But after WW2, Jewish population growth suddenly hit the brakes. This is not just for European Jews...but for all Jews worldwide.

According to the Jewish Virtual Library, the world's Jewish population went from 10,600,000 in 1900 to 16,728,000 in 1939. That's a growth of 58% in 39 years. Yet from 1945 to 2000, the world Jewish population went from 11,500,000 to 13,300,000....which is 16% in 55 years.

Is there any explanation for this dramatic drop in Jewish population growth? I can sorta understand European Jews not increasing much, due to trauma, break up and loss of families, and plain old shock...but what about the Jews of the USA, Middle East, South America, and Asia?

Anyone?

Thunder · 31st March 2009, 06:32 PM

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vita...population.htm

This website explains some of it..but not all.

hgc · 31st March 2009, 06:37 PM

The 2nd half of the 20th Century saw widespread assimilation of Jews into wider society, thus inter-marriage and dilution. Affluence means lower reproductive rate.

Thunder · 31st March 2009, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by hgc

The 2nd half of the 20th Century saw widespread assimilation of Jews into wider society, thus inter-marriage and dilution. Affluence means lower reproductive rate.

I still find it shocking to see the growth rate of Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews also dropped soo very significantly.

Or am I wrong and has their population increased at a normal rate...thereby making them a large and larger percentage of the world's Jews??

By the way, this topic came up because I am debating with a writer of a Holocaust Denier book. He argues that the incredible drop in Jewish pop. growth after WW2 is impossible and is evidence of....some kind of population data fraud conspiracy.

Simon39759 · 1st April 2009, 05:54 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is that Judaism is a religion. It seems like a no brainer, of course, but it means that the rise of atheism is going to affect the rate of Judaism quite a bit.
Atheism has doubled in the US over the last 20 years. That means that the rate of of growth of an religion has been divided by half. Maybe more as I suspect Judaism to be more sensitive than other religions to (de)conversion.
Furthermore, anti-Semitism has lost a lot of ground since WWII. From a practical point of view, that means that Jews are more welcome among non-Jews and, hence, are more likely to marry outside of Judaism.

paximperium · 1st April 2009, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Simon39759

Another thing to keep in mind is that Judaism is a religion. It seems like a no brainer, of course, but it means that the rise of atheism is going to affect the rate of Judaism quite a bit.
Atheism has doubled in the US over the last 20 years. That means that the rate of of growth of an religion has been divided by half. Maybe more as I suspect Judaism to be more sensitive than other religions to (de)conversion.
Furthermore, anti-Semitism has lost a lot of ground since WWII. From a practical point of view, that means that Jews are more welcome among non-Jews and, hence, are more likely to marry outside of Judaism.

I disagree. Many atheistic Jews continue to self-identify as Jews. Judaism is as much a cultural legacy as a religion but I agree that the inter-marriage with non-Jews is likely playing a role.

wollery · 1st April 2009, 06:32 PM

What Pax said.

My family haven't been religious for three generations, but we still identify as Jewish (with the possible exception of my sister). For most Jews it's as much a racial identity as being Black or Chinese.

Thunder · 1st April 2009, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by paximperium

I disagree. Many atheistic Jews continue to self-identify as Jews. Judaism is as much a cultural legacy as a religion but I agree that the inter-marriage with non-Jews is likely playing a role.

Though, if we count anyone who has a Jewish mother as a Jew, regadlesss of their religious practise and membership, the number of Jews in the world may be closer to the 18 million number.

I think one main way of calculating national Jewish populations is based on synagogue memberships. If 1/3 of all Jews are not members of a synagogue, then thats a big number.

wollery · 1st April 2009, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

Though, if we count anyone who has a Jewish mother as a Jew, regadlesss of their religious practise and membership, the number of Jews in the world may be closer to the 18 million number.

I think one main way of calculating national Jewish populations is based on synagogue memberships. If 1/3 of all Jews are not members of a synagogue, then thats a big number.

Yes, it is. So?

Simon39759 · 1st April 2009, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by paximperium

I disagree. Many atheistic Jews continue to self-identify as Jews. Judaism is as much a cultural legacy as a religion but I agree that the inter-marriage with non-Jews is likely playing a role.

But self-identifying as a Jew (ethnically) is not enough to be counted by the statistics.
You actually have to tick the little box written 'Judaism' rather than the one labelled 'Atheist/Agnostic/Non-religious'.

wollery · 1st April 2009, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Simon39759

But self-identifying as a Jew (ethnically) is not enough to be counted by the statistics.
You actually have to tick the little box written 'Judaism' rather than the one labelled 'Atheist/Agnostic/Non-religious'.

Many forms include a space for "ethnicity" rather than religion, which will be filled by many non-religious Jews as "Jewish".

NobbyNobbs · 1st April 2009, 07:37 PM

I could see one plausible excplanation in the decade or two following WWII that Jews might be hesitant to self-identify as such, considering what just happened to 6 million others.

Simon39759 · 1st April 2009, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by wollery

Many forms include a space for "ethnicity" rather than religion, which will be filled by many non-religious Jews as "Jewish".

If you say so. I only filled up a few such forms in the US but I don't remember a space for Jewish ethnicity. Afro-Americans, Hispanic, Native-Americans/Polynesians... but I don't remember a Jewish one. But then, I was not looking...

Kthulhut Fhtagn · 1st April 2009, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

[url]but what about the Jews of the USA

Didn't exist in great numbers until after WWII.

Originally Posted by parky76

Middle East

Also victims of the holocaust. When Hitler began his purge of Jews in Europe he urged the middle east to do the same with their own Jewish population.

Originally Posted by parky76

South America

Never existed in large numbers.

Originally Posted by parky76

Asia

Never existed in large numbers.

Originally Posted by parky76

Anyone?

I suspect it's a simple in values, coupled with the fact that many of the survivors of the Holocaust were younger and not in child-rearing age. Could also be that a large number of survivors simply never wanted kids due to the trauma.

wollery · 1st April 2009, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by Simon39759

If you say so. I only filled up a few such forms in the US but I don't remember a space for Jewish ethnicity. Afro-Americans, Hispanic, Native-Americans/Polynesians... but I don't remember a Jewish one. But then, I was not looking...

There isn't usually, but there's always a space for "other" with a line to write in what that "other" might be.

Thunder · 4th April 2009, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kthulhut Fhtagn

Didn't exist in great numbers until after WWII.

there were already 5 million Jews in the USA before WW2 began.

Jeff Corey · 4th April 2009, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

Though, if we count anyone who has a Jewish mother as a Jew, regadlesss of their religious practise and membership, the number of Jews in the world may be closer to the 18 million number.

I think one main way of calculating national Jewish populations is based on synagogue memberships. If 1/3 of all Jews are not members of a synagogue, then thats a big number.

I may be wrong, but I have read that Reformed Judaism will count you as a Jew if you have one parent who is a Jew and you practice Judaism.

Thunder · 4th April 2009, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

I may be wrong, but I have read that Reformed Judaism will count you as a Jew if you have one parent who is a Jew and you practice Judaism.

It is clear that during the time of the Bible, Jewishness was determined by one's father.

Now, we go by the mother's side.

How many Jews would there be in the world if we went by the father's side instead..of if we followed an either/or rule?

Improbable Joe · 4th April 2009, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../worldpop.html

Between the years 1900 and 1945, there was a steady growth for the world's Jewish community. But after WW2, Jewish population growth suddenly hit the brakes. This is not just for European Jews...but for all Jews worldwide.
Anyone?

Wow, I can't imagine why...

WTF is wrong with you?

Improbable Joe · 4th April 2009, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by paximperium

I disagree. Many atheistic Jews continue to self-identify as Jews. Judaism is as much a cultural legacy as a religion but I agree that the inter-marriage with non-Jews is likely playing a role.

That's true of the children of interfaith marriages as well, even if neither parent is especially religious.

Merko · 4th April 2009, 05:36 PM

I recall a discussion at work between two 'Jewish' colleagues, and iirc neither of them were 'officially' Jewish, because they didn't fulfil enough criteria. Neither of them were religious, but apparently that was not the issue. Anyway, it seems extremely unlikely to me that non-religious Jews would keep marrying other Jews for more than a couple of generations. Certainly none of the (non-religious) Jews I know who have married have done so.

Improbable Joe · 4th April 2009, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Merko

I recall a discussion at work between two 'Jewish' colleagues, and iirc neither of them were 'officially' Jewish, because they didn't fulfil enough criteria. Neither of them were religious, but apparently that was not the issue. Anyway, it seems extremely unlikely to me that non-religious Jews would keep marrying other Jews for more than a couple of generations. Certainly none of the (non-religious) Jews I know who have married have done so.

If that is true NOW, imagine how it was right after WWII and the Holocaust... do you think people were bragging about how Jewish they were from 1945-1955?

31st March 2009, 06:23 PM	#1
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	World Jewish population growth inconsistancies http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../worldpop.html Between the years 1900 and 1945, there was a steady growth for the world's Jewish community. But after WW2, Jewish population growth suddenly hit the brakes. This is not just for European Jews...but for all Jews worldwide. According to the Jewish Virtual Library, the world's Jewish population went from 10,600,000 in 1900 to 16,728,000 in 1939. That's a growth of 58% in 39 years. Yet from 1945 to 2000, the world Jewish population went from 11,500,000 to 13,300,000....which is 16% in 55 years. Is there any explanation for this dramatic drop in Jewish population growth? I can sorta understand European Jews not increasing much, due to trauma, break up and loss of families, and plain old shock...but what about the Jews of the USA, Middle East, South America, and Asia? Anyone?

31st March 2009, 06:37 PM	#3
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,028	The 2nd half of the 20th Century saw widespread assimilation of Jews into wider society, thus inter-marriage and dilution. Affluence means lower reproductive rate.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

31st March 2009, 06:40 PM	#4
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by hgc The 2nd half of the 20th Century saw widespread assimilation of Jews into wider society, thus inter-marriage and dilution. Affluence means lower reproductive rate. I still find it shocking to see the growth rate of Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews also dropped soo very significantly. Or am I wrong and has their population increased at a normal rate...thereby making them a large and larger percentage of the world's Jews?? By the way, this topic came up because I am debating with a writer of a Holocaust Denier book. He argues that the incredible drop in Jewish pop. growth after WW2 is impossible and is evidence of....some kind of population data fraud conspiracy.
	Last edited by Thunder; 31st March 2009 at 06:42 PM.

1st April 2009, 06:03 PM	#6
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,727	Originally Posted by Simon39759 Another thing to keep in mind is that Judaism is a religion. It seems like a no brainer, of course, but it means that the rise of atheism is going to affect the rate of Judaism quite a bit. Atheism has doubled in the US over the last 20 years. That means that the rate of of growth of an religion has been divided by half. Maybe more as I suspect Judaism to be more sensitive than other religions to (de)conversion. Furthermore, anti-Semitism has lost a lot of ground since WWII. From a practical point of view, that means that Jews are more welcome among non-Jews and, hence, are more likely to marry outside of Judaism. I disagree. Many atheistic Jews continue to self-identify as Jews. Judaism is as much a cultural legacy as a religion but I agree that the inter-marriage with non-Jews is likely playing a role.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

1st April 2009, 06:32 PM	#7
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,319	What Pax said. My family haven't been religious for three generations, but we still identify as Jewish (with the possible exception of my sister). For most Jews it's as much a racial identity as being Black or Chinese.
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

31st March 2009, 06:32 PM	#2
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	http://www.simpletoremember.com/vita...population.htm This website explains some of it..but not all.

1st April 2009, 05:54 PM	#5
Simon39759 Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,285	Another thing to keep in mind is that Judaism is a religion. It seems like a no brainer, of course, but it means that the rise of atheism is going to affect the rate of Judaism quite a bit. Atheism has doubled in the US over the last 20 years. That means that the rate of of growth of an religion has been divided by half. Maybe more as I suspect Judaism to be more sensitive than other religions to (de)conversion. Furthermore, anti-Semitism has lost a lot of ground since WWII. From a practical point of view, that means that Jews are more welcome among non-Jews and, hence, are more likely to marry outside of Judaism.

1st April 2009, 06:45 PM	#8
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by paximperium I disagree. Many atheistic Jews continue to self-identify as Jews. Judaism is as much a cultural legacy as a religion but I agree that the inter-marriage with non-Jews is likely playing a role. Though, if we count anyone who has a Jewish mother as a Jew, regadlesss of their religious practise and membership, the number of Jews in the world may be closer to the 18 million number. I think one main way of calculating national Jewish populations is based on synagogue memberships. If 1/3 of all Jews are not members of a synagogue, then thats a big number.

1st April 2009, 07:04 PM	#9
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,319	Originally Posted by parky76 Though, if we count anyone who has a Jewish mother as a Jew, regadlesss of their religious practise and membership, the number of Jews in the world may be closer to the 18 million number. I think one main way of calculating national Jewish populations is based on synagogue memberships. If 1/3 of all Jews are not members of a synagogue, then thats a big number. Yes, it is. So?
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

1st April 2009, 07:05 PM	#10
Simon39759 Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,285	Originally Posted by paximperium I disagree. Many atheistic Jews continue to self-identify as Jews. Judaism is as much a cultural legacy as a religion but I agree that the inter-marriage with non-Jews is likely playing a role. But self-identifying as a Jew (ethnically) is not enough to be counted by the statistics. You actually have to tick the little box written 'Judaism' rather than the one labelled 'Atheist/Agnostic/Non-religious'.

1st April 2009, 07:07 PM	#11
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,319	Originally Posted by Simon39759 But self-identifying as a Jew (ethnically) is not enough to be counted by the statistics. You actually have to tick the little box written 'Judaism' rather than the one labelled 'Atheist/Agnostic/Non-religious'. Many forms include a space for "ethnicity" rather than religion, which will be filled by many non-religious Jews as "Jewish".
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

1st April 2009, 07:37 PM	#12
NobbyNobbs Gazerbeam's Protege Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The Mended Drum Posts: 5,630	I could see one plausible excplanation in the decade or two following WWII that Jews might be hesitant to self-identify as such, considering what just happened to 6 million others.
	__________________ I wish someone would find something I wrote on this board to be sig-worthy, thereby effectively granting me immortality.--Antiquehunter The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted years on earth the time spent eating butterscotch pudding. AMERICA! NUMBER 1 IN PARTICLE PHYSICS SINCE JULY 4TH, 1776!!! --SusanConstant

1st April 2009, 07:54 PM	#13
Simon39759 Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,285	Originally Posted by wollery Many forms include a space for "ethnicity" rather than religion, which will be filled by many non-religious Jews as "Jewish". If you say so. I only filled up a few such forms in the US but I don't remember a space for Jewish ethnicity. Afro-Americans, Hispanic, Native-Americans/Polynesians... but I don't remember a Jewish one. But then, I was not looking...

1st April 2009, 07:55 PM	#14
Kthulhut Fhtagn Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Somewhere in time and space... Posts: 1,939	Originally Posted by parky76 [url]but what about the Jews of the USA Didn't exist in great numbers until after WWII. Originally Posted by parky76 Middle East Also victims of the holocaust. When Hitler began his purge of Jews in Europe he urged the middle east to do the same with their own Jewish population. Originally Posted by parky76 South America Never existed in large numbers. Originally Posted by parky76 Asia Never existed in large numbers. Originally Posted by parky76 Anyone? I suspect it's a simple in values, coupled with the fact that many of the survivors of the Holocaust were younger and not in child-rearing age. Could also be that a large number of survivors simply never wanted kids due to the trauma.
	__________________ -- Everything starts somewhere, although many physicists disagree. There is the constant desire to find out where - where is the point where it all began...The philosopher Didactylos suggested an alternative hypothesis: 'things just happen, what the hell'.

1st April 2009, 08:07 PM	#15
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,319	Originally Posted by Simon39759 If you say so. I only filled up a few such forms in the US but I don't remember a space for Jewish ethnicity. Afro-Americans, Hispanic, Native-Americans/Polynesians... but I don't remember a Jewish one. But then, I was not looking... There isn't usually, but there's always a space for "other" with a line to write in what that "other" might be.
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

4th April 2009, 03:15 PM	#16
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Kthulhut Fhtagn Didn't exist in great numbers until after WWII. there were already 5 million Jews in the USA before WW2 began.

4th April 2009, 04:39 PM	#17
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,795	Originally Posted by parky76 Though, if we count anyone who has a Jewish mother as a Jew, regadlesss of their religious practise and membership, the number of Jews in the world may be closer to the 18 million number. I think one main way of calculating national Jewish populations is based on synagogue memberships. If 1/3 of all Jews are not members of a synagogue, then thats a big number. I may be wrong, but I have read that Reformed Judaism will count you as a Jew if you have one parent who is a Jew and you practice Judaism.

4th April 2009, 04:41 PM	#18
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Jeff Corey I may be wrong, but I have read that Reformed Judaism will count you as a Jew if you have one parent who is a Jew and you practice Judaism. It is clear that during the time of the Bible, Jewishness was determined by one's father. Now, we go by the mother's side. How many Jews would there be in the world if we went by the father's side instead..of if we followed an either/or rule?

4th April 2009, 04:43 PM	#19
Improbable Joe Thinker Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 147	Originally Posted by parky76 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../worldpop.html Between the years 1900 and 1945, there was a steady growth for the world's Jewish community. But after WW2, Jewish population growth suddenly hit the brakes. This is not just for European Jews...but for all Jews worldwide. Anyone? Wow, I can't imagine why... WTF is wrong with you?
Improbable Joe Thinker Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 147

4th April 2009, 04:44 PM	#20
Improbable Joe Thinker Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 147	Originally Posted by paximperium I disagree. Many atheistic Jews continue to self-identify as Jews. Judaism is as much a cultural legacy as a religion but I agree that the inter-marriage with non-Jews is likely playing a role. That's true of the children of interfaith marriages as well, even if neither parent is especially religious.
Improbable Joe Thinker Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 147

4th April 2009, 05:36 PM	#21
Merko Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,901	I recall a discussion at work between two 'Jewish' colleagues, and iirc neither of them were 'officially' Jewish, because they didn't fulfil enough criteria. Neither of them were religious, but apparently that was not the issue. Anyway, it seems extremely unlikely to me that non-religious Jews would keep marrying other Jews for more than a couple of generations. Certainly none of the (non-religious) Jews I know who have married have done so.
Merko Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,901

4th April 2009, 05:40 PM	#22
Improbable Joe Thinker Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 147	Originally Posted by Merko I recall a discussion at work between two 'Jewish' colleagues, and iirc neither of them were 'officially' Jewish, because they didn't fulfil enough criteria. Neither of them were religious, but apparently that was not the issue. Anyway, it seems extremely unlikely to me that non-religious Jews would keep marrying other Jews for more than a couple of generations. Certainly none of the (non-religious) Jews I know who have married have done so. If that is true NOW, imagine how it was right after WWII and the Holocaust... do you think people were bragging about how Jewish they were from 1945-1955?
Improbable Joe Thinker Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 147