Christian Woman Kills Son to Save Him

[Fnord]

According to the article, a woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself wrote in suicide notes that, "I had to send my son to heaven and myself to Hell."

> Link to Article <

Is it just my imagination, or are there more and more religionists every day acting in ways that make no sense at all?

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by Fnord

According to the article, a woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself wrote in suicide notes that, "I had to send my son to heaven and myself to Hell."

> Link to Article <

Is it just my imagination, or are there more and more religionists every day acting in ways that make no sense at all?

How does this course of action not make any sense at all?

It is the logical consequence out of believing in heaven/hell as well as loving her child.

what else could she have done? Saved her own soul at the cost of risking her child's, yes. But what if the child simply was more important to her?

[Foster Zygote]

Man, that's awful. But I suspect it has more to do with her mental illness than religion. I'm sure that she incorporated her religious beliefs into her delusions, but it sounds like she had serious problems that still would have manifested themselves had she been secular. Many people are experiencing economic stress at this time and it seems to be pushing those at the brink over the edge. I don't know if this case has anything to do with the current heightened level of stress many are feeling. It may be that this would have happened regardless.

[drkitten]

Originally Posted by Rasmus

How does this course of action not make any sense at all?

It is the logical consequence out of believing in heaven/hell as well as loving her child.

what else could she have done?

Prayed for his salvation, which canonically is an effective way of making sure someone goes to heaven. (See, for example, Dante's treatment of Emperor Trajan in Paradiso).

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Rasmus

How does this course of action not make any sense at all?

It is the logical consequence out of believing in heaven/hell as well as loving her child.

what else could she have done? Saved her own soul at the cost of risking her child's, yes. But what if the child simply was more important to her?

But her son was twenty years old.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Fnord

According to the article, a woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself wrote in suicide notes that, "I had to send my son to heaven and myself to Hell."

> Link to Article <

Is it just my imagination, or are there more and more religionists every day acting in ways that make no sense at all?

Unfortunately the reasoning makes quite a bit of sense if you accept the premise of her beliefs.

• She loves her son more than anything else including herself
• She believes that there is a heaven and hell
• She believes her son will go to hell if he continues to live as he is (NB speculation not in the article)
• She believes she will go to hell if she kills her son

Therefore she chooses that she should go to hell and not her child.

[This Guy]

She obviously was a few cards short of a deck.

I suspect if she had not been religious she would have done much the same thing with some other imagined excuse.

It's sad really.

As a father, I could never kill one of my kids, with the possible exception of it being the only way to relieve their suffering. Even that would have to be the hardest thing I would ever do.

I can only think of two conditions a person could willingly kill their child under. Being so extremely angry that they loose control, or being whacked out of their mind.

Previous mental health problems that resulted in an involuntary admission to a nut house, claims of being the anti-christ? Whacked.

IMHO

[CrikeyBobs]

Originally Posted by news article

"God made me a queen and I failed. I'm a fallen angel. He turned me into the anti-Christ."

JFC! But I don't blame religion for this, it was simply the conduit through which her psychosis manifested itself. If this had happened 40 years ago, she would have been saving him from nucelar armageddon.

So tragic. It's hard to comprehend.

[MattusMaximus]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Man, that's awful. But I suspect it has more to do with her mental illness than religion. I'm sure that she incorporated her religious beliefs into her delusions, but it sounds like she had serious problems that still would have manifested themselves had she been secular. Many people are experiencing economic stress at this time and it seems to be pushing those at the brink over the edge. I don't know if this case has anything to do with the current heightened level of stress many are feeling. It may be that this would have happened regardless.

Agreed. There's Fred Phelps crazy, and then there's "I'm-going-to-kill-my-children-to-send-them-to-Heaven" Andrea Yates crazy. Phelps is just a jerk, Yates was just plain nuts.

[Safe-Keeper]

Quote:

I suspect if she had not been religious she would have done much the same thing with some other imagined excuse.

Except the way I see it, this wasn't a matter of "oh my God, I want to kill my kid and I need an excuse", but "I have to save my son from eternal torment, how do I do this"?

I know religious people usually do not kill their kids. I also know that mental illness or something may (may - "he/she/they were crazy" is an all-too-convient thing to slap onto acts you find repulsive. Like it or not, lots of rapists, killers, war criminals and other heinous people are not mentally or physically ill) have played in. But you can't excuse her religious beliefs either.

I don't even like the phrase "she was suffering from a mental illness" in the first place. It's like me asking how a cancer sufferer died, and you answering, "oh, he had a physical illness". It's generalizing and really answers next to absolutely nothing, as mental illnesses are as diverse as physical ailments. Mentally ill? How so? Anorectic, bipolar, schizophrenic or clinically depressed? Or did she suffer from agrophobiasocial anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, panic disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, schizotypy, paranoid personality disorder, pyromania or bulimia?

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Darat

Unfortunately the reasoning makes quite a bit of sense if you accept the premise of her beliefs.

• She loves her son more than anything else including herself
• She believes that there is a heaven and hell
• She believes her son will go to hell if he continues to live as he is (NB speculation not in the article)
• She believes she will go to hell if she kills her son

Therefore she chooses that she should go to hell and not her child.

She could have killed her child and then asked Jesus for forgiveness. If she bathed herself in the blood of the lamb her sins will be as white as snow.

Then she can go to heaven and be welcomed by her son.

With god all things are possible.

[Sun Countess]

Originally Posted by tsig

She could have killed her child and then asked Jesus for forgiveness. If she bathed herself in the blood of the lamb her sins will be as white as snow.

Then she can go to heaven and be welcomed by her son.

With god all things are possible.

What you said reminded me of John List, the man who killed his wife, dependent mother, and three teenage children when life got a little too tough. He couldn't commit suicide because that's an unforgiveable sin, and he didn't want to end up in hell. So he killed his family and then spent however long repenting for what he'd done. Oh, and going on the run and escaping justice for nearly two decades.

From the wiki article:

Quote:

A psychiatrist who interviewed List testified that he saw only two solutions to his family's financial and health problems – either go on welfare, or kill his family and send their souls to heaven. Welfare would expose them to ridicule, show that List did not love them, and violate his own authoritarian father's teachings to always care for and protect the family.

Not a case of mental illness there, but always interesting to see how people can use their religious beliefs to justify their behaviors.

[Magyar]

While there is no way to know if she would have done the same thing. Mentally ill people do strange things with or without the use/influence of religious beliefs.

My issue here is how much of a burden or contributing factor was/is her religious beliefs.
If you are mentally ill and you start from a base of rationally view of the world vs the woo you would have to be less well equipped in dealing with your illness with the latter then the former.

The catholic church STILL babbles on about demons and evil spirits causing aids in africa. Then when something like his happens we get the OH It's not the fault of the religion. Well maybe not completely, but they sure iced the road on her slippery slope.

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by Fnord

According to the article, a woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself wrote in suicide notes that, "I had to send my son to heaven and myself to Hell."

> Link to Article <

Is it just my imagination, or are there more and more religionists every day acting in ways that make no sense at all?

That's the gun range I shoot at - when I do that indoors. Helpful people, Know their stuff.........


It is not your imagination. World getting too complicated for them I guess.

[This Guy]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Except the way I see it, this wasn't a matter of "oh my God, I want to kill my kid and I need an excuse", but "I have to save my son from eternal torment, how do I do this"?

I know religious people usually do not kill their kids. I also know that mental illness or something may (may - "he/she/they were crazy" is an all-too-convient thing to slap onto acts you find repulsive. Like it or not, lots of rapists, killers, war criminals and other heinous people are not mentally or physically ill) have played in. But you can't excuse her religious beliefs either.

I don't even like the phrase "she was suffering from a mental illness" in the first place. It's like me asking how a cancer sufferer died, and you answering, "oh, he had a physical illness". It's generalizing and really answers next to absolutely nothing, as mental illnesses are as diverse as physical ailments. Mentally ill? How so? Anorectic, bipolar, schizophrenic or clinically depressed? Or did she suffer from agrophobiasocial anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, panic disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, schizotypy, paranoid personality disorder, pyromania or bulimia?

Well, you could read the link

"Woman reportedly had mental illness
Mitchell's father, Charles Moore, told police that Marie Moore had a history of mental illness and had previously attempted suicide and been involuntarily committed to a mental hospital in 2002 under the state's Baker Act. "

Obviously I'm in no position to judge/determine what her condition was. She had however reportedly attempted suicide, and was committed to a mental hospital involuntarily. Yet she left a message saying she was not sick. She was just a failed queen and anti-christ. Hoped her death would bring about 1000 years of peace.

In my professional opinion (I'm a third shift supervisor in a field in no way related to physical or mental health* ) she was whacked out.

IMHO she wasn't right in the area of the head. Don't know enough about mental health to say for sure what she might have or have not done if she was not a religious person. But I strongly suspect that which ever screw she had that was loose would have caused her to do something very bad regardless of her beliefs. It's easy to blame religion. It could be argued that any overly religious person COULD be suffering from some mental malfunction. But she had a history of problems. I'm not sure any sane person would attempt suicide, though again I have no true basis to form a judgment on that. I strongly suspect that religion was just the "thing" she drifted off into because of her condition. It could, I suspect, have just as easily been driven by a belief in a world wide conspiracy for one world government, or "Big Brother" fear, or Global Warming fear.... In this case, it was religion.

* OK, so half my shift is crazy and the other half is stupid, but other than that I have no appropriate experience in the field of mental health (I sit in the middle. I'm half crazy, and half stupid.)

[HansMustermann]

Now I don't have more data than that article, but it sounds like she only got into a mental hospital for attempting suicide. That's hardly enough to judge that she was crazy. More people do that because of being depressed than for being schizophrenic.

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by drkitten

Prayed for his salvation, which canonically is an effective way of making sure someone goes to heaven. (See, for example, Dante's treatment of Emperor Trajan in Paradiso).

Just thought of this: That we do even discuss the details of canon shows that her actions were not utterly unexplainable.

If I go over to my neighbours now and kill every last one of them because I'm out of mortadella I'd say it's fairly obvious that I've gone bat **** crazy and there is no explanation for my actions.

But this case is different: This poor woman was raised with a bunch of beliefs (which I think are ape **** crazy, but unfortunately that is not the consensus in our society) and proceeded logically from there.

As soon as we accept the premises "there is a heaven and hell", we accept that there are coircumstaqnces under which it is noble and commandable to kill your own children so they could avoid going to hell

[Darat]

And the problem about trying to argue the finer points of theology in situations like this is that most believers of most religions will not have a clue what you are talking about!

I remember there was a thread about a priest that was preaching hatred against homosexuals and someone was arguing "But why was he doing that - the RC doctrine is that X is... and Y is..." which was true But of course totally ignored the reality of the religion as it is practiced.

[drkitten]

Originally Posted by Darat

And the problem about trying to argue the finer points of theology in situations like this is that most believers of most religions will not have a clue what you are talking about!

"Pray for salvation" is hardly an obscure part of theology.

Quote:

I remember there was a thread about a priest that was preaching hatred against homosexuals and someone was arguing "But why was he doing that - the RC doctrine is that X is... and Y is..." which was true But of course totally ignored the reality of the religion as it is practiced.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part in the Book of Common Prayer where the priest stands up and tells all the parents to kill their children to protect them from sin. Is that before or after the part where every week the priest asks for the Prayers of the Faithful for the laundry list of concerns that everyone has?

As much as I dislike religion, this is not a religion problem. This is a bat-s**t crazy person problem. The one thing that ANY Christian priest will tell you to do in is pray for the salvation of the person you're concerned about.

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by Fnord

Is it just my imagination, or are there more and more religionists every day acting in ways that make no sense at all absolute, logical sense in their mental models of reality?

Fixed it for you.


Sadly.

[I Ratant]

I saw Dr. Huxtable tell his son... "I brought you into this world, I can take you out of it!". (On whatever that tv program was.)
This is a somewhat common attitude I think.

[Fnord]

Beerina, my post does not need "fixing" by you or anyone else.

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by drkitten

"Pray for salvation" is hardly an obscure part of theology.

Yes, but prayer might not be enough. Or where does it say that nobody that is being prayed for goes to hell, ever?

Killing still makes sense: Less time for the son to do bad stuff. People can still pray for him now that he is dead. It is a lot more likely this way that he will go to heaven, since there is a lot of stuff he now never did which he otherwise might have done.

Quote:

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part in the Book of Common Prayer where the priest stands up and tells all the parents to kill their children to protect them from sin.

That doesn't mean that the decision to do so is illogical.

Quote:

Is that before or after the part where every week the priest asks for the Prayers of the Faithful for the laundry list of concerns that everyone has?

How is that relevant?

Quote:

As much as I dislike religion, this is not a religion problem. This is a bat-s**t crazy person problem.

Please point out how the set of beliefs

1) there is a heaven and a hell
2) the things we do on earth decide or influence if wer go to heaven or hell
3) i really love my son

does not lead to the conclusion that it may be a good idea to kill one's son and how 1) and 2) are not religious in nature.

That the majority of religious people do apparently not really believe the insanities they claim they believe (or are unable to make reasonable conclusions from them or possibly simply do not like their children all that much) doesn't mean that religion isn't at the core of this problem.

Quote:

The one thing that ANY Christian priest will tell you to do in is pray for the salvation of the person you're concerned about.

Or they might, i don't know, tell you to land an airplane in some skyscraper. Or send you on a holy crusade. Or tell you to burn the witch. Or they might tell you that you are going to hell, anyway. (Fred Phelbns, anyone?)

[kurious_kathy]

Originally Posted by Fnord

According to the article, a woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself wrote in suicide notes that, "I had to send my son to heaven and myself to Hell."

> Link to Article <

Is it just my imagination, or are there more and more religionists every day acting in ways that make no sense at all?

This is a tragendy and she certainly must have listened to the evil one to even have been able to carry this out. Demonic oppression is real guys, wake up! Do you really think she did this to her own son without help? I say she listened to Satan who attacked her thought life big time!

Does anyone know if she was taking medications for her so called mental illness?

[paximperium]

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

This is a tragendy and she certainly must have listened to the evil one to even have been able to carry this out. Demonic oppression is real guys, wake up! Do you really think she did this to her own son without help? I say she listened to Satan who attacked her thought life big time!

Really? How do you know the voices in her head was not God? What is your criteria for determining this?

Quote:

Does anyone know if she was taking medications for her so called mental illness?

It is not so-called, it is mental illness. You belief in magic man and demon possession is as rational as this woman's.

If your god asks you to kill someone, will you?

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by paximperium

Really? How do you know the voices in her head was not God? What is your criteria for determining this?
It is not so-called, it is mental illness. You belief in magic man and demon possession is as rational as this woman's.

If your god asks you to kill someone, will you?

.
Hey, Abraham started to do that!
Leviticus spells out the process!
Dasn't argue with those precedents.
It's IN THE BOOK!
I presume there was no garden in the immediate vicinity with a talking bush to dissuade the mother from her action.

[Fnord]

Do any of you Religionists have any evidence to back up your assertions? Something other than "feelings" or subjectively interpreted phrases from an apocryphal book of questionable origins, please.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by Fnord

According to the article, a woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself wrote in suicide notes that, "I had to send my son to heaven and myself to Hell."

> Link to Article <

Is it just my imagination, or are there more and more religionists every day acting in ways that make no sense at all?

Did it work?

[Fnord]

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Did it work?

Depends on what you mean...

Is the son dead? Yes? Then that part of his murderer's plan worked.

Is the murdered son in Heaven? Unknown.

Is the murdering mother in Hell? Unknown.

Of course, the complete success or failure of the murderer's plan begs the question of the existance of Heaven or Hell.

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

Demonic oppression is real guys, wake up! Do you really think she did this to her own son without help? I say she listened to Satan who attacked her thought life big time!

1. No, demonic possession is not real. It is a figment of your imagination.
2.Yes, she did it to her own son without help. Her malfunctioning brain caused her to do it.
3. Satan is a figment of your imagination.

[joobz]

It's a sad story and one that I wish didn't exist. To pretend it's the natural progression of religion, though, is made of the same fallacy cloth as pretending that atheism leads to nihilism.

[Andrewsarchus]

religiosity and mental illness aren't synonymous? I've always treated the two equally. If someone says a magic being talks to them or that they talk to a magic being I usually give the the same look.

[kellyb]

I think she was probably mentally ill AND her actions were logical considering her beliefs. I think in non-mentally ill people, instincts (like, don't kill your children) over-ride the wacked-out actions those weird beliefs should compel one to perform. But insanity turns those pro-social instincts off, or dulls them down somehow.

[Fnord]

Originally Posted by Andrewsarchus

religiosity and mental illness aren't synonymous? I've always treated the two equally. If someone says a magic being talks to them or that they talk to a magic being I usually give the the same look.

CHRISTIANITY (n): The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Nope. No mention of insanity there!

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by joobz

It's a sad story and one that I wish didn't exist. To pretend it's the natural progression of religion, though, is made of the same fallacy cloth as pretending that atheism leads to nihilism.

No, it is not the natural progression. Not everybody who is religious will eventually end up killing other people. Of course not.

Still, holding the beliefs that she apparently held, her actions were not actually irrational. So as long as these religious belief will be spread and respected, we will occasionally see people thinking things through and doing things we'd rather not see them doing.

I think it is important that we do not ignore the part religion plays here. Yes, some people will always kill other people for a number of reasons - but that doesn't make it okay to go and provide some of these reason to people.

Atheism doesn't lead to nihilism because it doesn't actually say anything about values. Religion does say something about the existence of heaven and hell and why we go to one or the other.

It is quite normal for religious people to do things that they think will make them go to heaven. It is also quite normal for religious people to do things that they think will allow others to go to heaven. (Any missionary work at all, e.g.) It is not unheard of that people give their life for their religion, either. Martyrs are valued and respected, if not elevated to Sainthood.

And all of that should have nothing to do with a woman doing pretty much the same thing for her own child?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I've run into the same problem collecting stories for Whatstheharm.net.

You find a story about a man or woman or both abusing their kids, someone killing their spouse, lover, child or other family members or someone committing murder-suicide or some other insane story. And you say "Wow, this isn't because of religion/woo. It wouldn't be fair to include it. This guy/woman was just plain crazy. Completely and totally mentally ill. This is really a crime as secular/non woo as a homeless man throwing a brick at a stranger or a teenager shooting up a school. The other stuff was more of a symptom of the insanity than anything else."

Or "This wasn't about religion, it was about child abuse/domestic violence/ rape/ molestation/ some other issue. It wouldn't be at all fair to label it as a problem caused by religion. That wasn't the cause, that was a small detail in the overall story and big picture."

Same thing here. A woman who thinks she is the anti-Christ has the same problem as a person who thinks he/she is Napoleon.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by Fnord

CHRISTIANITY (n): The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Nope. No mention of insanity there!

Aren't you Christian?

[Fnord]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Aren't you Christian?

Good question ... I wish I had an honest answer for you.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

1. No, demonic possession is not real. It is a figment of your imagination.
2.Yes, she did it to her own son without help. Her malfunctioning brain caused her to do it.
3. Satan is a figment of your imagination.

Do you have any evidence to convince me of that? I didn't think so. So why should I believe you when you say Satan isn't real??

[paximperium]

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy

Do you have any evidence to convince me of that? I didn't think so. So why should I believe you when you say Satan isn't real??

The stupid burns.

Why are you here KK? Besides being unable to hold any discussion or even have anything rational to say how are you ever going to convince anyone with half a functional brain that you are not delusional with the illogical nonsense that drives you sad existence?

BTW you still haven't answered this: Will you kill someone if your god tells you to?