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12th April 2009, 10:23 AM | #1 |
Illuminator
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Law enforcement exposes blogger for pastor after revealing salary
A member of the Jacksonville sheriff's office, who also worked for First Baptist Jacksonville, via subpoena got google to reveal the name of a blogger and then exposed it to the public. The blogger was then banned from the church.
The crime? The blogger posted First Baptist Jacksonville Pastor's Mac Brunson salary ($300,000) and other benefits. No threats, no harassment, no libel. Just facts about the church's money. Here's the story clipped for emphasis:
Quote:
Visit the blog: http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com And the pastor said "he is one of the lowest-paid mega-church pastors"... |
12th April 2009, 11:27 AM | #2 |
Thinker
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$300k a year? To spout ************ all day long? Dammit, I've been doing that for free my whole life! How do I get in on this?
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13th April 2009, 05:58 AM | #3 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Sounds rife with impropriety. In order to subpoena the identity of the blogger, would this detective not have to provide probable cause of some offense?
Sounds like any judge or prosecutor would have been hard-pressed to find any.... |
13th April 2009, 10:07 AM | #4 |
Philosopher
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This doesn't look good...
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13th April 2009, 10:54 AM | #5 |
Metasyntactic Variable
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Aside from the fact that this gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "Bully Pulpit," all that I can come up with is this piece of advice for the blogger:
If you might suffer adverse consequences for the "wrong" people looking at what your posts, then don't post anything that would offend them (or expose their hypocrisy) - especially on a website that can easily determine or divulge your identity. |
13th April 2009, 11:01 AM | #6 |
Illuminator
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Why isn't this guy an ex -officer?? This is a blatant abuse of his badge. If no threats were being made, then there is no reason for him to pull a subpoena. I hope these guys contact the ACLU for legal support. We have a constitutional right to privacy in our persons and papers unless a valid search warrant is obtained -- what possible reason could there be for getting this information?
I wonder if the quoted Undersheriff is also a member of the church? fumingly yours, MK |
13th April 2009, 11:03 AM | #7 |
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13th April 2009, 11:12 AM | #8 |
Metasyntactic Variable
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The officer cited "possible illegal activities" in his subpeona request. Those are the magic words for getting anything subpeona'ed under the Patriot Act.
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13th April 2009, 11:32 AM | #9 |
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Waidda godsdamn minit!
Aren't subpeona's issued or requested by DA's and/or Lawyers to guarantee appearance of a witness at a hearing? How and why was a Deputy Sheriff granted a subpeona? A search warrent also requires a bit more substantiation than appears to be the case here... |
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13th April 2009, 11:48 AM | #10 |
Metasyntactic Variable
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If I understand the law correctly:
1) A search warrant allows court officials and/or law-enforcement officers to enter a location and search it for evidence. 2) A subpeona orders the recipient to deliver evidence to a law-enforcement officer or court official. Would someone please correct me if I'm wrong? |
13th April 2009, 12:41 PM | #11 |
Master Poster
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It's about who's doing the revealing, and how they got the information. This detective got the information, apparently, as part of a criminal investigation. Having found no wrongdoing on the part of the blogger, he should not be allowed to disclose the otherwise confidential information he got as part of the investigation. On the other hand, a blogger's not a detective (at least this blogger isn't); he's just a blogger. Assuming he didn't do anything wrong in getting the information, there's nothing at all wrong with disclosing the information. You get to tell what you know, unless there's something special about you that means you can't. With the detective, there was. With the blogger, there wasn't.
On a completely non-legal note, I think the people who pay your salary have a right to know how much you're making. Normal working people don't get to hide their salaries from their employers, and I don't see why pastors should be any different. I'm not saying they should be legally required to disclose, and I do think they should be allowed to use the legal protections of their privacy that exist. I just think they should voluntarily forgo that, as a simple matter of respect and decency. If there's nothing wrong with taking in $300k for what you do, disclose it. If there is something wrong with it, take a pay cut. |
14th April 2009, 04:28 AM | #12 |
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14th April 2009, 04:30 AM | #13 |
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14th April 2009, 04:32 AM | #14 |
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14th April 2009, 05:48 AM | #15 |
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Not addressing this to anyone in particular, but at the thread in general: subpoena.
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14th April 2009, 06:02 AM | #16 |
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14th April 2009, 06:15 AM | #17 |
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14th April 2009, 06:58 AM | #18 |
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This is depressing on so many levels. $300,000 p.a! Like, wow. Just, wow. I shall have to become a US preacher it seems. The church of England last time i looked paid about $22,000 for the same job. So a US preacher makes 13 times as much? WTF?
cj |
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14th April 2009, 07:23 AM | #19 |
Illuminator
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Does anyone know whether the investigator actually went to a judge to get the subpoena? Or is there some loophole (like in the Patriot Act) that lets a law enforcement official issue a subpoena by himself?
I'd like to know what "possible illegal activities" were being considered, and who did the considering. I mean, it's possible that I'm engaging in illegal activities right now, as far as this investigator knows. Does this post give him the power to demand that the JREF hand over my identity? |
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14th April 2009, 07:26 AM | #20 |
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At least here, If I walked into the county prosecutor's office and wanted a subpoena or search warrant for "possible illegal activity" I'd be rather abruptly shown the door.
"Probable cause" indicates that there is some evidence of illegal activity. |
14th April 2009, 07:35 AM | #21 |
Critical Thinker
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No wonder the churches have such effective lobbies! The best that money can buy!
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14th April 2009, 08:12 AM | #22 |
Metasyntactic Variable
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.
"Probable Cause" for a cop covers more legal ground than "Probable Cause" for Joe Citizen. If Joe sees a drug deal go down and reports it to the cops, they're likely to not do much more than question the usual suspects (who will deny everything, even when caught in the act), turn them loose, and wait until Joe's bullet-riddled corpse shows up at the coroner's office before starting a full criminal investigation. If a cop sees the same drug deal go down, those involved would be arrested on the spot, unless they would rather commit "Suicide by Cop." A mere accusation is not "Probable Cause" for a criminal investigation, unless it is a cop that makes it and not a private citizen. |
14th April 2009, 08:16 AM | #23 |
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This pastor has really offended me, SO I want to get Scriptural on his ass.
James 5:1-6. Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. ...Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and with you have withheld, cries out against you; and the outcry of the harvesters has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. Luke 6:24. "But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full." Luke 16:19-25. "Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs would come and lick his sores. Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony...'" Acts 4:32-35. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles' feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need. |
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14th April 2009, 08:32 AM | #24 |
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14th April 2009, 08:41 AM | #25 |
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14th April 2009, 08:47 AM | #26 |
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14th April 2009, 08:57 AM | #27 |
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14th April 2009, 09:50 AM | #28 |
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I'm an Anglican Christian, so I declare my prejudice here. Please take it in to account when reading my posts. "Most people would rather die than think: many do." - Betrand Russell My dull life blogged http://jerome23.wordpress.com |
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14th April 2009, 10:24 AM | #29 |
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14th April 2009, 10:41 AM | #30 |
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I'm an Anglican Christian, so I declare my prejudice here. Please take it in to account when reading my posts. "Most people would rather die than think: many do." - Betrand Russell My dull life blogged http://jerome23.wordpress.com |
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14th April 2009, 10:53 AM | #31 |
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Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. Like my post? Buy my books! Now taking bets on the Clinton Indictment! |
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14th April 2009, 10:59 AM | #32 |
Penultimate Amazing
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14th April 2009, 10:59 AM | #33 |
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I'm an Anglican Christian, so I declare my prejudice here. Please take it in to account when reading my posts. "Most people would rather die than think: many do." - Betrand Russell My dull life blogged http://jerome23.wordpress.com |
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14th April 2009, 11:42 AM | #34 |
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20th April 2009, 01:12 PM | #35 |
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20th April 2009, 01:18 PM | #36 |
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cj23 quotes: "James 5:1-6. Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. ...Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and with you have withheld, cries out against you; and the outcry of the harvesters has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter."
CJ23, that raises an interesting question. Could the church membership be convinced that by making this pastor rich, they are depriving him of an eternal reward? Maybe the Christian thing to do would be to drop his salary to, say, $10,000 per annum? In a spirit of loving concern? What would Jesus do? |
20th April 2009, 01:43 PM | #37 |
Illuminator
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I'd say most US pastors are middle-middle class or thereabouts. $25-$50,000 range.
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20th April 2009, 07:13 PM | #38 |
Illuminator
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The case is closed and the Sheriff's Office said everything way okay. The Florida Times-Union editorial board wrote:
Quote:
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21st April 2009, 07:08 AM | #39 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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21st April 2009, 08:42 PM | #40 |
Illuminator
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I still don't understand how they got the blog service provider to hand over the info. Did they simply knuckle-under to a police request? I would think they would require a court subpoena.
Do service providers give this kind of info to the police? That's scary. |
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