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Cl1mh4224rd · 9th May 2009, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by INRM

No that is not the only one solution to any problem in my world. However considering that UCAV's are being developed with increasing autonomy, this is not entirely an invalid speculation.

Not entirely, no. Just mostly. Autonomy does not require human-level intelligence.

JoeyDonuts · 10th May 2009, 08:53 PM

A hot weapons system will ALWAYS require a man in the loop. The only possible exceptions to this are air defense systems like AEGIS. In the event of an armageddon-like scenario with multiple missile tracks inbound in a volume too great for a human to respond to effectively, the system can be put in an automatic mode wherein any inbound air contact fitting a certain set of parameters will be designated hostile and engaged. Before you start canceling all flights that go over water, consider this: Those systems that can go fully autonomous from intercept to designation to launch will only be made to do so in the most dire of circumstances. In this instance, hostilities will have already broken out. And as I said before, only air contacts fitting a certain profile will be engaged. If you've booked a flight over a naval shooting war, you need to fire your travel agent. And you needn't worry about being fired upon unless your aircraft is flying at least .9 Mach, descending directly towards the warship or sea-skimming, and for some reason has its transponder off, not answering IAD/MAD, and has its TCAS turned off.

Klimax · 10th May 2009, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

A hot weapons system will ALWAYS require a man in the loop. The only possible exceptions to this are air defense systems like AEGIS. In the event of an armageddon-like scenario with multiple missile tracks inbound in a volume too great for a human to respond to effectively, the system can be put in an automatic mode wherein any inbound air contact fitting a certain set of parameters will be designated hostile and engaged. Before you start canceling all flights that go over water, consider this: Those systems that can go fully autonomous from intercept to designation to launch will only be made to do so in the most dire of circumstances. In this instance, hostilities will have already broken out. And as I said before, only air contacts fitting a certain profile will be engaged. If you've booked a flight over a naval shooting war, you need to fire your travel agent. And you needn't worry about being fired upon unless your aircraft is flying at least .9 Mach, descending directly towards the warship or sea-skimming, and for some reason has its transponder off, not answering IAD/MAD, and has its TCAS turned off.

Like Iranian airliner? At some thread it was mentioned...

ETA:As I see JoeyDonuts response I realised that I forgot to say that my questoin was baout last few sentences!(Bolded!)

JoeyDonuts · 11th May 2009, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by Klimax

Like Iranian airliner? At some thread it was mentioned...

No, there was a man-in-loop the whole time on that one.

In that case, the Iranian airbus's approach was believed by the crew on watch in CIC to be similar to that of an Iranian fighter on an anti-ship engagement course. The Stark incident had only happened months earlier and tensions were high. The Airbus was fired upon because:

1. Its TCAS (radar) was not active, preventing an easy identification by the Vincennes' Electronic Warfare technicians. The radar systems onboard airliners are very easily identifiable - they almost universally have a pulse repetition frequency of 200 PPS with a bi-directional sweep. Even a green EW fresh out of Corry Station would pick that up in a heartbeat.

2. IFF mode C would have been another dead giveaway - had it been active.

3. Most importantly, the Airbus did not respond to numerous escalating queries and warnings over 121.5 mHz - which every single pilot in the WORLD should be monitoring the second they go wheels up. The reason that frequency is internationally guarded is to prevent situations like this.

4. Its flight profile was consistent with an AM-39 Exocet engagement.

The only indication that I can possibly fathom the Vincennes would have had would be the RCS return off the SPY-1D air search radar. It would have looked considerably larger than one would expect from an F-4 out of Bandar Abbas airfield. But this in and of itself is not enough to go on. In the absence of the other electronic means by which a civilian airliner is supposed to ID itself when questioned, a slightly higher RCS doesn't mean that there's not a threat. Indeed, it could have very well been interpreted as a possible P-3 Orion which can also carry the AM-39.

We had to study this incident in detail down in Pensacola. As a matter of fact, I believe there's a poster here who used to work with a guy who was on watch in CIC when the Vincennes accident happened.

In light of the political and military tensions in the Gulf, and compounded with the reality of the tactical situation - it was, in my opinion, the only option. I'd have fired on the contact too. I'm sure that does not assuage the CO of the Vincennes of what must be horrendous nightmares.

Such is the burden of command.

Klimax · 11th May 2009, 01:20 AM

Thanks Joey.

I added ETA to my original post to clarify for everybody else to what I have been replying.

JoeyDonuts · 11th May 2009, 01:34 AM

You mean I typed all that for an out-of-context response?!?

I'll thank you to return that 5 minutes of my life I won't get back, you quasi-automaton.

Klimax · 11th May 2009, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

You mean I typed all that for an out-of-context response?!?

I'll thank you to return that 5 minutes of my life I won't get back, you quasi-automaton.

Those things were good info,you just approached from bit different angle as you thought I was thinking that iranian airliner was shot down by drone.
But rest was exactly what I was looking for and alluded to.

And I am still human.(mostly

)

JoeyDonuts · 11th May 2009, 03:42 AM

No drone involved, sir. Volley of two SM2-MR "Standard" missiles from the forward VLS.

Klimax · 11th May 2009, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

No drone involved, sir. Volley of two SM2-MR "Standard" missiles from the forward VLS.

Sir,somebody is going to win award for worst misunderstanding of the year or award for worst writing of the year.(Or both)

"Those things were good info,you just approached from bit different angle as you thought I was thinking that iranian airliner was shot down by drone."

Your thought that it was my thought ,but instead it was not as I know that at that time no drones with weapons or kamikatze-drones.

Is that clear?

JoeyDonuts · 11th May 2009, 05:35 AM

Yes. Photon torpedoes. Full spread. Perfectly clear.

Aitch · 11th May 2009, 07:25 AM

When I lived in Newcastle upon Type in the early to mid '70s, it was on a road close to the Town Moor. Every year, for a month or so, there was a tethered barrage balloon there on the Moor. It was used for training Territorial Army Paratroopers.

Just thought you might like to know.

Klimax · 11th May 2009, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts

Yes. Photon torpedoes. Full spread. Perfectly clear.

Hey,you're crossovering!

(Looks like I should try locate somewhere on net Xmen and Star Trek comics crossover)

INRM · 11th May 2009, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Whatever you (INRM) do, don't watch "Deja Vu" with Denzel.
The orbiting satellites keep track of EVERYTHING done EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME!

How much of that movie is actually true? It seems to largely be fiction -- I mean there are elements of time-travel in it.

Quote:

Wanna see what's going on in that 20 story building's 3rd floor, 4th apartment, kitchen and hear what's said, and see the action from eye level?
They're already doing that!

That sounds a bit hard to believe...

INRM

I Ratant · 11th May 2009, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by INRM

How much of that movie is actually true? It seems to largely be fiction -- I mean there are elements of time-travel in it.
...
That sounds a bit hard to believe...
INRM

.
Jeez... other than the names of the cities, streets, and cars which are there just because it makes the rest of the story have some connection with reality, it's ALL fiction!
All of it!

HawksFan · 12th May 2009, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Jeez... other than the names of the cities, streets, and cars which are there just because it makes the rest of the story have some connection with reality, it's ALL fiction!
All of it!

Erm...as far as INRM needs to know.

INRM · 12th May 2009, 11:27 AM

I Ratant,

I didn't say I believed it. I actually said I found it hard to believe and that it seemed to be largely fiction...

I don't see where the confusion is...

INRM

Nosi · 15th June 2009, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Whatever you (INRM) do, don't watch "Deja Vu" with Denzel.
The orbiting satellites keep track of EVERYTHING done EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME!
Wanna see what's going on in that 20 story building's 3rd floor, 4th apartment, kitchen and hear what's said, and see the action from eye level?
They're already doing that!
There's a four day processing time though.

Pity the poor slob peeking at my fat, hairy bum in my apartment singing Puff Goes the Magic Dragon as I flush...

10th May 2009, 08:53 PM	#82
JoeyDonuts Frequencies Not Known To Normals Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 10,636	A hot weapons system will ALWAYS require a man in the loop. The only possible exceptions to this are air defense systems like AEGIS. In the event of an armageddon-like scenario with multiple missile tracks inbound in a volume too great for a human to respond to effectively, the system can be put in an automatic mode wherein any inbound air contact fitting a certain set of parameters will be designated hostile and engaged. Before you start canceling all flights that go over water, consider this: Those systems that can go fully autonomous from intercept to designation to launch will only be made to do so in the most dire of circumstances. In this instance, hostilities will have already broken out. And as I said before, only air contacts fitting a certain profile will be engaged. If you've booked a flight over a naval shooting war, you need to fire your travel agent. And you needn't worry about being fired upon unless your aircraft is flying at least .9 Mach, descending directly towards the warship or sea-skimming, and for some reason has its transponder off, not answering IAD/MAD, and has its TCAS turned off.
	__________________ _{EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!}

10th May 2009, 11:44 PM	#83
Klimax NWO cyborg (3930K inside) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9 Posts: 7,990	Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts A hot weapons system will ALWAYS require a man in the loop. The only possible exceptions to this are air defense systems like AEGIS. In the event of an armageddon-like scenario with multiple missile tracks inbound in a volume too great for a human to respond to effectively, the system can be put in an automatic mode wherein any inbound air contact fitting a certain set of parameters will be designated hostile and engaged. Before you start canceling all flights that go over water, consider this: Those systems that can go fully autonomous from intercept to designation to launch will only be made to do so in the most dire of circumstances. In this instance, hostilities will have already broken out. And as I said before, only air contacts fitting a certain profile will be engaged. If you've booked a flight over a naval shooting war, you need to fire your travel agent. And you needn't worry about being fired upon unless your aircraft is flying at least .9 Mach, descending directly towards the warship or sea-skimming, and for some reason has its transponder off, not answering IAD/MAD, and has its TCAS turned off. Like Iranian airliner? At some thread it was mentioned... ETA:As I see JoeyDonuts response I realised that I forgot to say that my questoin was baout last few sentences!(Bolded!)
	__________________ ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400 Last edited by Klimax; 11th May 2009 at 01:17 AM.

11th May 2009, 12:29 AM	#84
JoeyDonuts Frequencies Not Known To Normals Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 10,636	Originally Posted by Klimax Like Iranian airliner? At some thread it was mentioned... No, there was a man-in-loop the whole time on that one. In that case, the Iranian airbus's approach was believed by the crew on watch in CIC to be similar to that of an Iranian fighter on an anti-ship engagement course. The Stark incident had only happened months earlier and tensions were high. The Airbus was fired upon because: 1. Its TCAS (radar) was not active, preventing an easy identification by the Vincennes' Electronic Warfare technicians. The radar systems onboard airliners are very easily identifiable - they almost universally have a pulse repetition frequency of 200 PPS with a bi-directional sweep. Even a green EW fresh out of Corry Station would pick that up in a heartbeat. 2. IFF mode C would have been another dead giveaway - had it been active. 3. Most importantly, the Airbus did not respond to numerous escalating queries and warnings over 121.5 mHz - which every single pilot in the WORLD should be monitoring the second they go wheels up. The reason that frequency is internationally guarded is to prevent situations like this. 4. Its flight profile was consistent with an AM-39 Exocet engagement. The only indication that I can possibly fathom the Vincennes would have had would be the RCS return off the SPY-1D air search radar. It would have looked considerably larger than one would expect from an F-4 out of Bandar Abbas airfield. But this in and of itself is not enough to go on. In the absence of the other electronic means by which a civilian airliner is supposed to ID itself when questioned, a slightly higher RCS doesn't mean that there's not a threat. Indeed, it could have very well been interpreted as a possible P-3 Orion which can also carry the AM-39. We had to study this incident in detail down in Pensacola. As a matter of fact, I believe there's a poster here who used to work with a guy who was on watch in CIC when the Vincennes accident happened. In light of the political and military tensions in the Gulf, and compounded with the reality of the tactical situation - it was, in my opinion, the only option. I'd have fired on the contact too. I'm sure that does not assuage the CO of the Vincennes of what must be horrendous nightmares. Such is the burden of command.
	__________________ _{EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!}

11th May 2009, 01:20 AM	#85
Klimax NWO cyborg (3930K inside) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9 Posts: 7,990	Thanks Joey. I added ETA to my original post to clarify for everybody else to what I have been replying.
	__________________ ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400

11th May 2009, 01:34 AM	#86
JoeyDonuts Frequencies Not Known To Normals Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 10,636	You mean I typed all that for an out-of-context response?!? I'll thank you to return that 5 minutes of my life I won't get back, you quasi-automaton.
	__________________ _{EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!}

9th May 2009, 10:09 PM	#81
Cl1mh4224rd Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 6,618	Originally Posted by INRM No that is not the only one solution to any problem in my world. However considering that UCAV's are being developed with increasing autonomy, this is not entirely an invalid speculation. Not entirely, no. Just mostly. Autonomy does not require human-level intelligence.

11th May 2009, 02:21 AM	#87
Klimax NWO cyborg (3930K inside) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9 Posts: 7,990	Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts You mean I typed all that for an out-of-context response?!? I'll thank you to return that 5 minutes of my life I won't get back, you quasi-automaton. Those things were good info,you just approached from bit different angle as you thought I was thinking that iranian airliner was shot down by drone. But rest was exactly what I was looking for and alluded to. And I am still human.(mostly )
	__________________ ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400

11th May 2009, 03:42 AM	#88
JoeyDonuts Frequencies Not Known To Normals Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 10,636	No drone involved, sir. Volley of two SM2-MR "Standard" missiles from the forward VLS.
	__________________ _{EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!}

11th May 2009, 05:30 AM	#89
Klimax NWO cyborg (3930K inside) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9 Posts: 7,990	Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts No drone involved, sir. Volley of two SM2-MR "Standard" missiles from the forward VLS. Sir,somebody is going to win award for worst misunderstanding of the year or award for worst writing of the year.(Or both) "Those things were good info,you just approached from bit different angle as you thought I was thinking that iranian airliner was shot down by drone." Your thought that it was my thought ,but instead it was not as I know that at that time no drones with weapons or kamikatze-drones. Is that clear?
	__________________ ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400

11th May 2009, 05:35 AM	#90
JoeyDonuts Frequencies Not Known To Normals Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 10,636	Yes. Photon torpedoes. Full spread. Perfectly clear.
	__________________ _{EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!}

11th May 2009, 07:25 AM	#91
Aitch Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: StAines Posts: 2,731	Vaguely on topi anecdote. When I lived in Newcastle upon Type in the early to mid '70s, it was on a road close to the Town Moor. Every year, for a month or so, there was a tethered barrage balloon there on the Moor. It was used for training Territorial Army Paratroopers. Just thought you might like to know.
	Last edited by Aitch; 11th May 2009 at 07:26 AM. Reason: speling errols

11th May 2009, 07:55 AM	#92
Klimax NWO cyborg (3930K inside) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9 Posts: 7,990	Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts Yes. Photon torpedoes. Full spread. Perfectly clear. Hey,you're crossovering! (Looks like I should try locate somewhere on net Xmen and Star Trek comics crossover)
	__________________ ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400

11th May 2009, 09:46 AM	#93
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490	Originally Posted by I Ratant Whatever you (INRM) do, don't watch "Deja Vu" with Denzel. The orbiting satellites keep track of EVERYTHING done EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME! How much of that movie is actually true? It seems to largely be fiction -- I mean there are elements of time-travel in it. Quote: Wanna see what's going on in that 20 story building's 3rd floor, 4th apartment, kitchen and hear what's said, and see the action from eye level? They're already doing that! That sounds a bit hard to believe... INRM
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490

11th May 2009, 11:55 AM	#94
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by INRM How much of that movie is actually true? It seems to largely be fiction -- I mean there are elements of time-travel in it. ... That sounds a bit hard to believe... INRM . Jeez... other than the names of the cities, streets, and cars which are there just because it makes the rest of the story have some connection with reality, it's ALL fiction! All of it!

12th May 2009, 11:02 AM	#95
HawksFan Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 482	Originally Posted by I Ratant . Jeez... other than the names of the cities, streets, and cars which are there just because it makes the rest of the story have some connection with reality, it's ALL fiction! All of it! Erm...as far as INRM needs to know.
	__________________ "Oh that's right, you're an irrational, UNREASONABLE, piece of <radio edit> who hides behind his computer screen and expects action..." - Aldo

12th May 2009, 11:27 AM	#96
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490	I Ratant, I didn't say I believed it. I actually said I found it hard to believe and that it seemed to be largely fiction... I don't see where the confusion is... INRM
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490

15th June 2009, 04:01 PM	#97
Nosi Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,732	Originally Posted by I Ratant Whatever you (INRM) do, don't watch "Deja Vu" with Denzel. The orbiting satellites keep track of EVERYTHING done EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME! Wanna see what's going on in that 20 story building's 3rd floor, 4th apartment, kitchen and hear what's said, and see the action from eye level? They're already doing that! There's a four day processing time though. Pity the poor slob peeking at my fat, hairy bum in my apartment singing Puff Goes the Magic Dragon as I flush...
Nosi Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,732