The Death of Vince Foster - What Really Happened? (1995)

[TS-]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/...tidepressants/ "Doctors are urged to avoid antidepressants as an initial treatment in mild depression under the current guidelines."

???
You seem to have removed a bit of the context in that link;

"Researchers say antidepressants can help mild to moderate depression and should not just be used in bad cases, BBC News reported.

Doctors are urged to avoid antidepressants as an initial treatment in mild depression under the current guidelines.

However, a study funded by the NHS looked at 200 patients from across England and found the drugs, called SSRIs, were more effective than GP advice and support alone."

You shouldn't have bothered quoting so selectively- you could have used this as support for your agument if you'd been so inclined.

~~~~~

That aside, what drug was Foster prescribed?

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by TS-

That aside, what drug was Foster prescribed?

Desyrel (trazodone)

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

First, while it is true that the drug Foster was prescribed is an antidepressant, it is also true that the drug was regularly prescribed for insomnia at that time, without depression even being a factor.

Which is an off-label use of the drug, and involves dosages much lower than the dosages prescribed for depression. Foster was prescribed a dose much higher than the insomnia dose, but fully in line with the depression dose.

Quote:

The doctor in both his FBI interview and his notes stated that Foster came to him complaining of insomnia. He didn't say he came in complaining of depression.

And yet, when Foster did this, the doctor then asked him if Foster was depressed because insomnia is one of the markers for depression (as you yourself noticed...and you still haven't apologized for calling me a liar when I first pointed that out to you).

Quote:

So yes, the doctor could very well have prescribed the drug solely to treat Foster's insomnia. And what dosing information we have is totally consistent with that use.

No it's not. Insomnia dosages for trazodone are 25 to 50 mg, rarely exceeding 100mg. Depression dosages are 150mg to start, with the dosage to be increased once the doctor has seen how the patient handles the medication.

Foster was prescribed 150mg.

Quote:

Even if the doctor asked Foster if he was feeling depressed, we know that the doctor concluded that depression was only "mild" and "situational", and that the doctor judged Foster to not be "in crisis". The doctor stated that he prescribed the drug knowing it would take "10 days to two weeks" to have an antidepressant effect, but would immediately provide relief from the insomnia. If Foster's depression was clinical, don't you think he'd have prescribed something a little faster acting?

There ISN'T anything faster-acting. Antidepressants take days to weeks to take effect - it's not a one-pill treatment, but one that requires on building up medication in the body over time.

Let's look again at what the doctor said.

What the FBI wrote, as quoted by you:

Quote:

[Watkins recalled that] Foster sounded a little tired . . . Watkins prescribed desyrel, 50 milligram tablets. . . . Watkins knew that it took 10 days to two weeks to take effect [as an antidepressant] but helps with insomnia, sometimes the very first day. . . . He felt it was important for Foster to start sleeping better and thought if he got some rest he would feel a lot better. He did not think that Foster was significantly depressed nor had Foster given the impression that he was 'in crisis.' From what Foster told him, Foster's condition sounded mild and situational. . . . Foster was not one to come to Watkins with stress-related problems. . . . Lisa [Foster's widow] told him that they had gone away and had a nice weekend on July 17-18. . . . He had the distinct impression . . . that Lisa was taken completely by surprise by this."

What Watkins himself wrote, in his Starr Report note (taken from the Starr Report itself, since when you post this you often leave out the "increase to three" part):

Quote:

I talked to Vince on 7/19/93, at which time he complained of anorexia and insomnia. He had no GI [gastrointestinal] symptoms. We discussed the possibility of taking Axid or Zantac to help with any ulcer symptoms as he was under a lot of stress. He was concerned about the criticism they were getting and the long hours he was working at the White House. He did feel that he had some mild depression. I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg. He was to start with one at bedtime and move up to three. . . . I received word at 10:20 p.m. on 7/20/93 that he had committed suicide.

Keep in mind that Watkins diagnosed Foster over the phone. Watkins was back in Arkansas, Foster in DC. Foster called up Watkins, and said he was suffering from anorexia and insomnia. Watkins knew those were symptoms of depression, so he asked Foster flat-out about that. Foster directly told him he thought he had mild depression.

Over the phone, Foster didn't seem that bad to the doctor...but remember, this was over the phone. Watkins hadn't seen Foster, didn't get a good look at him, and only spoke with him briefly...and yet he still concluded Foster was at least partly depressed. Watkins prescribed Desyrel, because it could be used to treat both insomnia and depression - it'd take a little while for the antidepressent part that Watkins explicitly prescribed the drug for (in his note, he directly associates Foster's admission of depression with what he prescribed to Foster), but the insomnia part would take effect right away. And he prescribed a depression dose - 150mg (a 50mg pill taken three times a day).

But Foster killed himself the very next day, never either following up with Watkins, or seeing a doctor there in DC.

Quote:

The plain and simple truth is that there is no evidence that Foster was suffering from clinical (i.e., MAJOR) depression ... other than the changed witness statements that resulted from that meeting in the Whitehouse with Hillary and other Clinton administration toadies about a week after Foster's death.

You mean other than all the evidence listed in the State of Mind section of the Starr Report, such as Foster's self-admitted stress about his job and mistakes he was making, his calling his sister the Friday before he killed himself telling her he felt depressed to the point where she gave him the names of psychiatrists to call, the above-mentioned Watkins prescribing an antidepressant, and what Dr. Alan Berman, a psychiatrist and consultant, had said on the subject after reviewing all that evidence?

Quote:

Very clearly, the doctor did not conclude that Foster was "clinically" depressed as Fiske, Starr, you and many in the media claimed.

...which is irrelevant, since no one is saying that Foster's ultimate state of mind diagnosis comes from a single doctor two thousand miles away from Foster who only spoke with him once over the phone during this period.

Quote:

So it's unlikely the doctor would have prescribed an antidepressant, per se.

...except that the doctor pretty much flat-out said Foster told him he was depressed when the doctor asked him directly, when the doctor prescribed the antidepressant in dosages that aren't consistent with simple treatment of insomnia.

Quote:

http://www.nativeremedies.com/articl...treatment.html "Treating depression with antidepressants is not advisable if you are suffering from mild depression."

You're quoting a site dedicated to promoting "alternative" and herbal remedies instead of prescription drugs as evidence for your claim? Really?

Quote:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/...tidepressants/ "Doctors are urged to avoid antidepressants as an initial treatment in mild depression under the current guidelines."

Quote:

Researchers say antidepressants can help mild to moderate depression and should not just be used in bad cases, BBC News reported.

Doctors are urged to avoid antidepressants as an initial treatment in mild depression under the current guidelines.

However, a study funded by the NHS looked at 200 patients from across England and found the drugs, called SSRIs, were more effective than GP advice and support alone.

That's some of the most horrific out-of-context quoting I've ever seen, BAC. And that's not even considering the fact that the "guidelines" are the UK's NHS guidelines, not those of the United States.

Quote:

Note, folks, that all the above was proven in the previous thread. And some of it has been proven again in this one as well. So either ANTPogo failed to understand what was clearly stated and proven (in which case I'm pounding my head against a brick wall), or he is deliberately misrepresenting the facts (which should be a consideration in believing what he has to say).

I'm just going to leave this paragraph of BAC's here, right under the two above links he tried to use as "evidence".

Quote:

Again, you misrepresent facts that were already posted and proven. As point out previously, the FBI and Park Police interview notes from the night of Foster's death indicate Lisa Foster and the other family members were asked specifically asked if Vince was depressed and taking medication. The investigator told the Senate "I mentioned depression, did you see this coming, were there any signs, has he been taking any medication? No. All negative answers." Your really desperate if you think they answered "no" because they viewed antidepressants as something other than medication.

Except we know from the doctor that Foster was taking a medication, and said medication was an antidepressant, and it was prescribed because Foster himself told the doctor he was feeling a little depressed.

Quote:

Now let me point out another piece of the puzzle that you've simply ignored. The Park Police notes say Lisa Foster said she and Vince had "gone away and had a nice weekend on July 17-18." Do you know that Foster's sister (Sheila) also told the FBI that on the day before his death "he [Foster] was feeling good and that the weekend had gone well." So here he had a "nice weekend" and was "feeling good" just a day before we are to believe he killed himself because of *major* depression.

On Friday, Foster called his sister and told her he was depressed. She gave him the phone numbers of three psychiatrists to call. Phone records apparently indicate he actually tried to call one that day. Saturday and Sunday he apparently had good days. Monday (a work day again...and remember, Foster was suffering from a lot of anxiety about his job) Foster called Watkins back in Arkansas, and admitted to the doctor he was feeling depressed, and got a prescription. Tuesday he killed himself.

Have you ever suffered from depression, BAC? I have. It's not a 24/7 thing. There are periods where depressed people can feel good and have a good time. The problem is that such bright periods are overshadowed and outnumbered by the darker periods.

The fact that Foster had a good weekend sandwiched by depression concerns large enough to consider help from psychiatrists is hardly the kind of "he was FINE!" smoking gun you make it out to be.

Quote:

But depression is not the only cause of insomnia. Anxiety and stress can also cause it, and Foster had those symptoms too.

ME: "Why would the doctor ask, unprompted, if Foster was depressed, do you think?"

YOU: "Because Foster wasn't sleeping? "


You seem to be hung up on what I said regarding Knowlton's appendix to the Starr Report. You keep claiming that the judges allowing the statement to be attached means that there must be some merit in Knowlton's claims. That's false, since the law under which the attachment was made simply lets the panel of judges overseeing the independent counsel send out the final report to anyone specifically "named in the report", so said person can respond with their own comments. To my knowledge, Knowlton is the only one who did so, and thus the judges attached his response.

You harp on the "in their discretion" part, like the only reason the judges would have allowed something which is (in your view) as damning as Knowlton's statement to be attached unless the judges bought into Knowlton's claims.

Quote:

That is not what they ruled. Here is what the court actually ruled: http://www.fbicover-up.com/starr/OrderToAttach.pdf . It says nothing of what you claim. You are {wrong}.

It doesn't say anything at all, actually - only that in the matter of Knowlton's motion to have his statement added per the exact law I posted, it's approved and the letter from Knowlton's attorney will be attached.

Quote:

And as pointed out to you previously, they also didn't rule that Starr was correct or presenting true facts either. But they must have felt there was enough basis to what Knowlton alleged to ORDER Starr (over his objections, by the way) to attach it to his final report, given that it contains the explosive charge that the IOC's effort was a cover up.

This is an incredible leap to make, especially since Knowlton's own petition simply asks that the attachment be made "[t]o assure that the report is full and complete and to afford [him] a measure of fairness (citing In re North, 10 F. 3rd 831, 835 (D.C. Cir. 1993)), and says specifically

"In re North, Id. Mr. Knowlton merely seeks to refute allegations that he is:

(1) A liar and perjurer;

(2) A homosexual; and

(3) Mentally unstable."

In other words, Knowlton says (paraphrasing, of course)) "Starr's report contains these allegations, and I ask the court to attach my statement SPECIFICALLY TO REFUTE THESE ALLEGATIONS," and the court agrees to that, and only that (if they were ruling on anything other than Knowlton's specified request, their answer would have said so, rather than simply saying "we agree to the reasons Knowlton submitted").

Nothing about Starr's overall conclusions, or that there was a coverup of a Foster murder.

Quote:

You also seem desperate to make what Rodriguez had to say go away. Take note folks ... what ANTPogo fears is probably something you should know ... especially when it's what Starr's own top investigator saying it.

Yes, I'm so eager to hide from what Rodriquez said that I quote him at length in my posts here. You totally got me.

[TS-]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Desyrel (trazodone)

Thanks. I ask because if it is something only used as an anti-depressant it implies that he wasn't prescribed it just so he could get some sleep- more that he couldn't sleep because he was having other problems, as inferred by others in this thread.

As it is it's not completely clear, though it seems that way to someone like me with no knowledge of the subject whatsoever. We have a few people with medical expertise here on JREF, I wonder is some of them could supply some clarification.

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by TS-

You seem to have removed a bit of the context in that link

You seem to be a bit removed from the context of WHEN the doctor prescribed the drug for Foster. True, the link I posted is saying CURRENT studies indicate antidepressants might help for mild depression but the important part is that before this, guidelines indicated they should not be used. Now do you understand?

Originally Posted by TS-

what drug was Foster prescribed?

Didn't you bother to read this or the other thread that was linked above? If not, why are you jumping into this discussion without the "context"?

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

You seem to be a bit removed from the context of WHEN the doctor prescribed the drug for Foster. True, the link I posted is saying CURRENT studies indicate antidepressants might help for mild depression but the important part is that before this, guidelines indicated they should not be used. Now do you understand?

Again, this applies to the UK's National Health System. I'd like you to note the most recent (2008) edition of Kaplan and Sadock's Synopsis of Psychiatry, which says "The treatment of minor depressive disorder can include psychotherapy, pharmacotherapy, or both....Patients with minor depressive disorder are probably responsive to pharmacotherapy, particularly selective serotonin reintake inhibitors (SSRIs) and buproprion (Wellbutrin)."

This book is described as "The best-selling general psychiatry text since 1972, Kaplan and Sadock's Synopsis of Psychiatry is now in its thoroughly updated Tenth Edition. This complete, concise overview of the entire field of psychiatry is a staple board review text for psychiatry residents and is popular with a broad range of students in medicine, clinical psychology, social work, nursing, and occupational therapy, as well as practitioners in all these areas. The book is DSM-IV-TR compatible and replete with case studies and tables, including ICD-10 diagnostic coding tables."

It's published in the United States, and contradicts the NHS "guidelines" you seem to place so much faith in as yet another "smoking gun" to prove that Vince Foster couldn't have been depressed.

[TS-]

Ah, I missed ANTPogo's post above mine. I should have known that the issue had come up before.

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

You seem to be a bit removed from the context of WHEN the doctor prescribed the drug for Foster. True, the link I posted is saying CURRENT studies indicate antidepressants might help for mild depression but the important part is that before this, guidelines indicated they should not be used. Now do you understand?

Briefly ignoring the post above this one, it specifically says it wasn't reccomended for MILD depressions. Considering that it is generally accepted that this person killed himself, you have to understand that people will come to the conclusion that he was in dire straits.

Also, they were medical standards from a different country.

Quote:

Didn't you bother to read this or the other thread that was linked above? If not, why are you jumping into this discussion without the "context"?

As I'm sure you understand, I was actually seeking context. It is a concept with which you should become more familiar...

The actual medication and the method of its prescription, as mentioned in post #163, were unclear from the posts I read in this thread, including yours. I did a quick CTRL+F search in some of the links you posted and it wasn't addressed in detail there either. Coincidence, I'm sure.

If I may make a suggestion, you may want to abandon the line of reasoning that Foster wasn't really depressed. It is not integral to your conspiracy theory, and when you leave out important details to promote that aspect of the CT, you look deceptive as soon as anyone calls you out on it.

[Galileo]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Which is an off-label use of the drug, and involves dosages much lower than the dosages prescribed for depression. Foster was prescribed a dose much higher than the insomnia dose, but fully in line with the depression dose.



And yet, when Foster did this, the doctor then asked him if Foster was depressed because insomnia is one of the markers for depression (as you yourself noticed...and you still haven't apologized for calling me a liar when I first pointed that out to you).




No it's not. Insomnia dosages for trazodone are 25 to 50 mg, rarely exceeding 100mg. Depression dosages are 150mg to start, with the dosage to be increased once the doctor has seen how the patient handles the medication.

Foster was prescribed 150mg.



There ISN'T anything faster-acting. Antidepressants take days to weeks to take effect - it's not a one-pill treatment, but one that requires on building up medication in the body over time.

Let's look again at what the doctor said.

What the FBI wrote, as quoted by you:


What Watkins himself wrote, in his Starr Report note (taken from the Starr Report itself, since when you post this you often leave out the "increase to three" part):


Keep in mind that Watkins diagnosed Foster over the phone. Watkins was back in Arkansas, Foster in DC. Foster called up Watkins, and said he was suffering from anorexia and insomnia. Watkins knew those were symptoms of depression, so he asked Foster flat-out about that. Foster directly told him he thought he had mild depression.

Over the phone, Foster didn't seem that bad to the doctor...but remember, this was over the phone. Watkins hadn't seen Foster, didn't get a good look at him, and only spoke with him briefly...and yet he still concluded Foster was at least partly depressed. Watkins prescribed Desyrel, because it could be used to treat both insomnia and depression - it'd take a little while for the antidepressent part that Watkins explicitly prescribed the drug for (in his note, he directly associates Foster's admission of depression with what he prescribed to Foster), but the insomnia part would take effect right away. And he prescribed a depression dose - 150mg (a 50mg pill taken three times a day).

But Foster killed himself the very next day, never either following up with Watkins, or seeing a doctor there in DC.



You mean other than all the evidence listed in the State of Mind section of the Starr Report, such as Foster's self-admitted stress about his job and mistakes he was making, his calling his sister the Friday before he killed himself telling her he felt depressed to the point where she gave him the names of psychiatrists to call, the above-mentioned Watkins prescribing an antidepressant, and what Dr. Alan Berman, a psychiatrist and consultant, had said on the subject after reviewing all that evidence?



...which is irrelevant, since no one is saying that Foster's ultimate state of mind diagnosis comes from a single doctor two thousand miles away from Foster who only spoke with him once over the phone during this period.



...except that the doctor pretty much flat-out said Foster told him he was depressed when the doctor asked him directly, when the doctor prescribed the antidepressant in dosages that aren't consistent with simple treatment of insomnia.



You're quoting a site dedicated to promoting "alternative" and herbal remedies instead of prescription drugs as evidence for your claim? Really?





That's some of the most horrific out-of-context quoting I've ever seen, BAC. And that's not even considering the fact that the "guidelines" are the UK's NHS guidelines, not those of the United States.



I'm just going to leave this paragraph of BAC's here, right under the two above links he tried to use as "evidence".



Except we know from the doctor that Foster was taking a medication, and said medication was an antidepressant, and it was prescribed because Foster himself told the doctor he was feeling a little depressed.



On Friday, Foster called his sister and told her he was depressed. She gave him the phone numbers of three psychiatrists to call. Phone records apparently indicate he actually tried to call one that day. Saturday and Sunday he apparently had good days. Monday (a work day again...and remember, Foster was suffering from a lot of anxiety about his job) Foster called Watkins back in Arkansas, and admitted to the doctor he was feeling depressed, and got a prescription. Tuesday he killed himself.

Have you ever suffered from depression, BAC? I have. It's not a 24/7 thing. There are periods where depressed people can feel good and have a good time. The problem is that such bright periods are overshadowed and outnumbered by the darker periods.

The fact that Foster had a good weekend sandwiched by depression concerns large enough to consider help from psychiatrists is hardly the kind of "he was FINE!" smoking gun you make it out to be.



ME: "Why would the doctor ask, unprompted, if Foster was depressed, do you think?"

YOU: "Because Foster wasn't sleeping? "


You seem to be hung up on what I said regarding Knowlton's appendix to the Starr Report. You keep claiming that the judges allowing the statement to be attached means that there must be some merit in Knowlton's claims. That's false, since the law under which the attachment was made simply lets the panel of judges overseeing the independent counsel send out the final report to anyone specifically "named in the report", so said person can respond with their own comments. To my knowledge, Knowlton is the only one who did so, and thus the judges attached his response.

You harp on the "in their discretion" part, like the only reason the judges would have allowed something which is (in your view) as damning as Knowlton's statement to be attached unless the judges bought into Knowlton's claims.



It doesn't say anything at all, actually - only that in the matter of Knowlton's motion to have his statement added per the exact law I posted, it's approved and the letter from Knowlton's attorney will be attached.



This is an incredible leap to make, especially since Knowlton's own petition simply asks that the attachment be made "[t]o assure that the report is full and complete and to afford [him] a measure of fairness (citing In re North, 10 F. 3rd 831, 835 (D.C. Cir. 1993)), and says specifically

"In re North, Id. Mr. Knowlton merely seeks to refute allegations that he is:

(1) A liar and perjurer;

(2) A homosexual; and

(3) Mentally unstable."

In other words, Knowlton says (paraphrasing, of course)) "Starr's report contains these allegations, and I ask the court to attach my statement SPECIFICALLY TO REFUTE THESE ALLEGATIONS," and the court agrees to that, and only that (if they were ruling on anything other than Knowlton's specified request, their answer would have said so, rather than simply saying "we agree to the reasons Knowlton submitted").

Nothing about Starr's overall conclusions, or that there was a coverup of a Foster murder.



Yes, I'm so eager to hide from what Rodriquez said that I quote him at length in my posts here. You totally got me.

If someone might be a little depressed or had a bad day at the office, that doesn't mean they will committ suicide with a gun manufactured in 1913.

You need to prove that every person who gets a little bummed out kills themself, for your argument to carry any weight.

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
First, while it is true that the drug Foster was prescribed is an antidepressant, it is also true that the drug was regularly prescribed for insomnia at that time, without depression even being a factor.

Which is an off-label use of the drug, and involves dosages much lower than the dosages prescribed for depression. Foster was prescribed a dose much higher than the insomnia dose, but fully in line with the depression dose.

Folks, the above is an excellent example of how ANTpogo is misrepresenting the facts in this debate. But, remember, Tricky insists I accept that he could just be *mistaken* and not doing it deliberately. It could be a mistake even though in the earlier Foster thread that he linked to this one with such vigor I provided over a dozen sources that completely contradict what he says. Let's review what was on that thread (which ANTpogo obviously must have read ... being such an informed person).

First, it was noted that according to Foster's doctor, the initial dose Foster was prescribed was one 50 mg tablet of Desyrel (also known as Trazodone), to be taken at bedtime. The doctor said Foster could increase that to 3 tablets (i.e., 150 mg). Now is this more in line with an insomnia dose or a depression dose, as ANTpogo claims is the case? Let's see.

Here are the sources I supplied on that earlier thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=129329&page=5 ). The first clearly says that the 50mg starting dose prescribed for Foster is more in line with the dose for insomnia than depression, contrary to what ANTpogo claims.

Quote:

http://mental-health.emedtv.com/desy...el-dosage.html

Quote:

The recommended starting Desyrel dose when treating depression is 150 mg per day (divided into two or three doses per day). ... snip ... The maximum recommended dose of Desyrel is 400 mg total per day, although people who have been hospitalized due to their depression may take up to 600 mg per day.

... snip ...

Usually, the dose of Desyrel for insomnia is lower, starting with Desyrel 25 mg or 50 mg at bedtime.

The second source says the same thing ... that the initial dose, if used for depression is 150 mg, not 50 mg. And portions of that dose are to be administered throughout the day, not just at bedtime. And the dose is increased from that up to a maximum dose of 400mg/day in divided doses.

Quote:

http://www.rxlist.com/desyrel-drug.htm

Quote:

DESYREL is indicated for the treatment of depression. ... snip ... An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days. The maximum dose for outpatients usually should not exceed 400 mg/day in divided doses.

All of which clearly suggests that Foster wasn't being prescribed the drug for reasons of depression, like ANTpogo claims.

Here's another citation contrary to ANTpogo's claim.

Quote:

http://www.psychatlanta.com/documents/trazadone.pdf

Quote:

When prescribed for insomnia and sleep disturbance, the usual dose for trazodone is 50–100 mg at bedtime, but some patients may need doses as high as 150–200 mg. ... snip ... For treatment of depression, trazodone is gradually increased to the effective therapeutic dosage of 300–400 mg, although some individuals may require dosages up to 600 mg.

Yes, that source indicates the dose Foster was prescribed is fully in line with the insomnia dosage and much too small to be a therapeutic depression dose. ANTpogo is obviously in denial.

And I'm not done. Here are more sources that I presented on that previous thread, which back up my side of this argument and debunk ANTpogo's side:

Quote:

http://books.google.com/books?id=4gI...result#PPP1,M1

Quote:

Symptom-Focused Psychiatric Drug Therapy for Managed Care, By Sonny Joseph ... snip ... For treatment of insomnia and as an adjunctive medication, the dosage range is 50 to 150 mg, given at bedtime for insomnia, and in divided doses for other purposes.

Quote:

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=3&gl=us

Quote:

Two of the most commonly used medications for insomnia in the United States are ... snip ... and the antidepressant trazodone (Desyrel) used in the range of 25 to 150 mg, which is lower than its effective antidepressant dose.

Quote:

http://www.pdrhealth.com/drugs/rx/rx...&contentId=173

Quote:

[b]Desyrel is prescribed for the treatment of depression. ... snip ...
The usual starting dosage is a total of 150 milligrams per day, divided into 2 or more smaller doses. Your doctor may increase your dose by 50 milligrams per day every 3 or 4 days. Total dosage should not exceed 400 milligrams per day, divided into smaller doses.

Quote:

http://www.inhousedrugstore.com/anti...s/desyrel.html

Quote:

The daily dosage is usually administered in three divided doses. ... snip ... Depression - The optimal dosage is between 300 - 400 mg/day. It is suggested that a starting dose of 150 mg/day is given for the first week, increasing to 300 mg/day or higher according to the clinical response (600 mg/day dosage has been reported).

Quote:

http://www.realmentalhealth.com/medi.../trazodone.asp

Quote:

For relief of depression. ... snip ... An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days. The maximum dose for out patients usually should not exceed 400 mg/day in divided doses.

Quote:

http://www.druglib.com/druginfo/desy...ations_dosage/

Quote:

DESYREL is indicated for the treatment of depression. ...snip ... An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days. The maximum dose for outpatients usually should not exceed 400 mg/day in divided doses.

Quote:

http://www.drugs.com/cons/desyrel.html

Quote:

Adults—Oral, to start, 50 milligrams per dose taken three times a day, or 75 milligrams per dose taken two times a day. Your doctor may increase your dose if needed.

Quote:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jGk...um=3&ct=result

Quote:

The main indication for the use of trazodone is major depressive disorder. There is a clear dose-response relationship, with dosages of 250 to 600 mg a day being necessary for trazodone to have therapeutic benefit.

Are you folks starting to get the picture? If not, here are some more:

Quote:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/508820

Quote:

The dose of trazodone needed to induce and maintain sleep is not well understood. Thus, clinicians use anywhere from 25 mg to 150 mg taken at bedtime as a hypnotic dose.

Quote:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bc5...esult#PPA85,M1

Quote:

Mood Disorders By S. Nassir Ghaemi ... snip ... Trazodone was dosed similarly to TCAs, requiring about 300 mg/day or more for effect, which often led to sedation. As a result, trazodone soon developed a niche as a sleep aid, especially in low doses (25 to 150 mg/day).

Quote:

http://www.hopkins-hivguide.org/diag.../insomnia.html

Quote:

Trazodone (25-200 mg qhs) most common antidepressant used for treatment of insomnia.

And what was ANTpogo's response to all the above in the previous thread? To link ONE source (http://www.fpnotebook.com/Psych/Pharm/Dsyrl.htm ) that states the starting dose for "major depression" is "50 to 150 mg per day in divided doses" and claim victory. Never mind that it states the dose for insomnia is 25-100 mg at bedtime, once per day. Never mind that it also says the "effective" dose for depression is 400 to 600 mg in divided doses, nowhere near what Foster's doctor told Foster to ramp up to in terms of dosage. Never mind that I could go on all day listing sources that agree with my side, not his. Would you like to see some more? Sure, why not ...

http://www.prohealth.com/library/sho...842&t=CFIDS_FM

Quote:

Drugs commonly used as sleep aids ... Desyrel 50-150 mg

http://www.medicinenet.com/trazodone/article.htm

Quote:

For the treatment of depression, the dose for adults is 150-600 mg per day. The initial starting dose usually is 150 mg per day. ... snip ... Doses of 25-75 mg are prescribed for insomnia.

Even if we accept the possibility that ANTpogo is so driven to believe Foster's death was a suicide that he is willing to believe his one source over a dozen others (and I could have supplied hundreds more), it's hard to see where he got the idea that "Foster was prescribed a dose much higher than the insomnia dose." That simply isn't true. Even his own source didn't say that, folks. Do you see why debating him really is like beating one's head against a brick wall?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Insomnia dosages for trazodone are 25 to 50 mg, rarely exceeding 100mg.

And yet I have no trouble whatsoever finding sources that say that isn't true at all ... finding posters on the internet medical forums stating they were prescribed 100 mg or 150 mg for insomnia ... finding websites with recommended dosages of up to 150 mg (just like Foster's prescription) for insomnia. Would you like some more citations that you can simply ignore ... since that seems to be your only defense against the truth, ANTpogo? Sure thing ...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1427983

Quote:

Nine volunteer poor sleepers, of mean age 61 years, took trazodone 150 mg nightly for 3 weeks, preceded by 2 weeks and followed by 1 week of matching blanks, in order to examine the effects of electrophysiologically-recorded and subjectively-rated sleep.

http://www.abconlinepharmacy.com/ns/...oduct4354-c-p1

Quote:

Desyrel/Trazodone 150mg tablets can also be prescribed to induce sleep for people who experience insomnia.

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/M...s/Q193243.html

Quote:

My pshychiatrist put me on 150 mg of trazodone at bedtime to induce sleep.

http://www.druginfonet.com/index.php.../Trazadone.htm

Quote:

I have taken 150 mg. of trazadone at bedtime for several years.

... snip ...


I take 150 mg at bedtime every day.

https://www.iguard.org/drugs/comment...er=1;rid=16364

Quote:

I have recently been prescribed Trazodone 150mg. to help with my insomnia.

... snip ...

I was also prescribed Trazodone, 150 mg., for restlessness and insomnia.

Try it yourself. You'll have no trouble finding this "rare" dosage.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Over the phone, Foster didn't seem that bad to the doctor...but remember, this was over the phone. Watkins hadn't seen Foster, didn't get a good look at him, and only spoke with him briefly...and yet he still concluded Foster was at least partly depressed.

"mildly" was his term. "situational" was his term. "not in crisis" was his term. Getting "a lot better" if he just got some sleep was his conclusion. The funny thing is that of all the people that Foster actually did have face to face, daily contact with, NOT ONE said he was depressed or showed signs of depression when interviewed by FBI and Park Police investigators immediately after the death. I quoted a number of them (quotes which you simply ignore and dismiss out of hand). Fact is, the word depression didn't enter the picture until after that meeting in the Whitehouse with a couple folks who then changed their story: Sheila Anthony, her husband and Lisa Foster. Curious, that meeting.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Watkins prescribed Desyrel, because it could be used to treat both insomnia and depression

No, that's only your interpretation. Watkins said nothing about needing to treat any depression in either FBI interview or notes. He said the depression was "situational", meaning that he felt it would go away if the situation changed ... like Foster getting some more sleep (which he specifically mentioned). And as the numerous sources I supplied (and that you simply ignore) prove, the dosage of the drug he prescribed does not fit the interpretation that he'd decided this was clinical depression requiring serious long term drug intervention. You're desperate, ANTpogo, and any real skeptic on this forum can see it.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

the antidepressent part that Watkins explicitly prescribed the drug for (in his note, he directly associates Foster's admission of depression with what he prescribed to Foster)

No he didn't "explicitly prescribe" the drug for depression and no he didn't "directly associate" it with depression. You are {wrong}.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

You mean other than all the evidence listed in the State of Mind section of the Starr Report

Which is just concocted nonsense (not evidence). And it's as concocted as the oven mitt evidence.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

such as Foster's self-admitted stress about his job and mistakes he was making

Oh my he was stressed and making mistakes. We should all commit suicide, I guess, because we are all pretty stressed right now.

And more likely, his death was in some way related to the things he couldn't talk about that he was doing for the Clintons. Perhaps something to do with their blind trust ... which was behind schedule in being completed for some unknown reason? Or perhaps something to do with all that material that Clinton administration staffers were observed removing from Foster's office after his death (which the staffers later denied doing under oath)?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

his calling his sister the Friday before he killed himself telling her he felt depressed to the point where she gave him the names of psychiatrists to call

Funny that she didn't mention that to the investigators the first week after his death. Not till after that meeting in the Whitehouse. And say, what was that $286,000 payment to Lisa that Sheila handled about?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

the above-mentioned Watkins prescribing an antidepressant

You mean prescribing one of the drugs most commonly prescribed for insomnia.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

and what Dr. Alan Berman, a psychiatrist and consultant, had said on the subject after reviewing all that evidence?

Yeah ... the quack who could say with "100% certainty" it was a suicide. Despite all the facts I've brought to light here in this and the other thread. And that's not evidence. That's just a conclusion.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

when the doctor prescribed the antidepressant in dosages that aren't consistent with simple treatment of insomnia.

You keep repeating this {wrong}. I wonder if Tricky can now see you are {wrong}?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Except we know from the doctor that Foster was taking a medication, and said medication was an antidepressant, and it was prescribed because Foster himself told the doctor he was feeling a little depressed.

But I thought you just got done telling us what the doctor said is "irrelevant". And you've offered no evidence that the doctor prescribed the medication because Foster said he was a little depressed. You {wrong} again?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Quote:
Now let me point out another piece of the puzzle that you've simply ignored. The Park Police notes say Lisa Foster said she and Vince had "gone away and had a nice weekend on July 17-18." Do you know that Foster's sister (Sheila) also told the FBI that on the day before his death "he [Foster] was feeling good and that the weekend had gone well." So here he had a "nice weekend" and was "feeling good" just a day before we are to believe he killed himself because of *major* depression.

On Friday, Foster called his sister and told her he was depressed.

Yes, curious that we have such a dramatic change in what Sheila Anthony (who held a high office in the Clinton Department of Justice, by the way) said. For 8 days the record shows her saying one thing, then on day nine, shortly after a meeting in the Whitehouse attended by all those who dramatically changed their stories, she suddenly offers a completely different account. You don't have to be a skeptic to figure this out.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

She gave him the phone numbers of three psychiatrists to call. Phone records apparently indicate he actually tried to call one that day.

Do they? Prove it.

All we really know for certain (given Fiske's and Starr's ability to make up evidence like claiming Lisa Foster's "fighting depression" and the oven mitt) (and given and someone else's ability to create evidence like the suicide note) is that Foster never talked to any of them. Now a psychiatrist reportedly did tell the FBI he was contacted by Foster sister, Sheila on July 16th. But perhaps Shiela was only laying the groundwork for a later suicide claim?

You know there are some very odd things about the note with the names of the psychiatrists. The Washington post reported on July 28 that "White House official searching the office of Vincent Foster, Jr. last week found a note indicating the 48 year- old deputy White House counsel may have considered psychiatric help shortly before he died". Then 2 days later a Washington Post article said the note was found in Foster automobile at Fort Marcy Park, and contained the name of TWO psychiatrists, not three. Then when the police report was issued, there were suddenly 3 names. And Miquel Rodriguez (Starr's top investigator for a time) and others in the OIC's office have noted that the name not originally reported by the Washington post looks as if it was written by a different hand ... and not Foster's. And isn't it odd that the first time this note is mentioned in police records is July 27th, a week after the police had evidence from the car in hand. Did you know that, ANTpogo? Now you do.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

You seem to be hung up on what I said regarding Knowlton's appendix to the Starr Report. You keep claiming that the judges allowing the statement to be attached means that there must be some merit in Knowlton's claims.

Well, you have to admit that judges don't normally allow just anything to be attached to important government reports. And this was highly inflammatory ... accusing the OIC itself of a coverup and witness intimidation.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

the law under which the attachment was made simply lets the panel of judges overseeing the independent counsel send out the final report to anyone specifically "named in the report", so said person can respond with their own comments. To my knowledge, Knowlton is the only one who did so, and thus the judges attached his response.

This is just more spin. But at least now you aren't falsely claiming that any thing submitted had to be attached to the report, *by law*.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

It says nothing of what you claim. You are {wrong}.

It doesn't say anything at all, actually

Then you admit that your bold claim was {wrong}.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

In other words, Knowlton says (paraphrasing, of course))

Why paraphrase, when you can just cite exactly what Knowlton says? So you can put in quotes a statement that Knowlton did not make?

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by TS-

If I may make a suggestion, you may want to abandon the line of reasoning that Foster wasn't really depressed.

That's not my claim. Again, you don't don't seem to have understood anything I wrote. My claim, as I stated quite clearly, is that he was not "clinically" depressed as Fiske, Starr, ANTpogo and all the *it was suicide* crowd claim. You do understand what is meant by "clinically", right?

[BeAChooser]

Galileo, could I ask you please not to quote long posts in their entirety just to post one liners? If need be, copy the first line of the post, then put "... snip ..." and then copy the last line of the post you want to respond to, before typing your comment. Thanks.

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

First, it was noted that according to Foster's doctor, the initial dose Foster was prescribed was one 50 mg tablet of Desyrel (also known as Trazodone), to be taken at bedtime. The doctor said Foster could increase that to 3 tablets (i.e., 150 mg).

No, the doctor didn't say he "could increase that to 3", implying he was giving Foster just 50mg and if that didn't help he could take more. The doctor said "I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg. He was to start with one at bedtime and move up to three."

Note the lack of any option given to Foster there. The doctor wanted Foster on 150mg of Desyrel.

Quote:

The recommended starting Desyrel dose when treating depression is 150 mg per day (divided into two or three doses per day). ... snip ... The maximum recommended dose of Desyrel is 400 mg total per day, although people who have been hospitalized due to their depression may take up to 600 mg per day.

What did the doctor prescribe Foster again? "I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg. He was to start with one at bedtime and move up to three."

150mg a day. And remember, the doctor prescribed this for Foster after a daytime call. I don't know how many prescriptions you've taken, BAC, but in the past when I've been given a medication in the afternoon that I'm supposed to take three times a day, I start with the one evening dose that first day, and don't take all three doses at once.

Quote:

The second source says the same thing ... that the initial dose, if used for depression is 150 mg, not 50 mg.

Which is exactly what Foster was prescribed. Three 50mg pills equals 150mg, you know.

Quote:

DESYREL is indicated for the treatment of depression. ... snip ... An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days. The maximum dose for outpatients usually should not exceed 400 mg/day in divided doses.

Which, again, is what Foster was prescribed. 150mg a day, taken in divided doses (three 50mg pills).

Quote:

When prescribed for insomnia and sleep disturbance, the usual dose for trazodone is 50–100 mg at bedtime, but some patients may need doses as high as 150–200 mg. ... snip ... For treatment of depression, trazodone is gradually increased to the effective therapeutic dosage of 300–400 mg, although some individuals may require dosages up to 600 mg.

The part that you didn't quote from that 2007 pamphlet explains that trazodone was once used widely for depression, but was replaced by modern drugs...drugs developed after Foster's death in 1993. Now trazodone is used only off-label for insomnia, but back then it was a common antidepressant.

And in any case, note where it says "gradually increased to...300-400 mg"? Increased from what, do you think? Especially in light of everything below.

Quote:

Symptom-Focused Psychiatric Drug Therapy for Managed Care, By Sonny Joseph ... snip ... For treatment of insomnia and as an adjunctive medication, the dosage range is 50 to 150 mg, given at bedtime for insomnia, and in divided doses for other purposes.

Foster was prescribed divided doses as in "other purposes" (like for depression), not a single dose (like for insomnia).

Quote:

Two of the most commonly used medications for insomnia in the United States are ... snip ... and the antidepressant trazodone (Desyrel) used in the range of 25 to 150 mg, which is lower than its effective antidepressant dose.

It gives a range for insomnia, the maximum of which is the starting dose for depression (according to all these other sources that you quoted). Foster was prescribed 150mg. So this quote is a wash (though it's unlikely for a doctor to immediately prescribe the maximum dosage).

Quote:

Desyrel is prescribed for the treatment of depression. ... snip ...
The usual starting dosage is a total of 150 milligrams per day, divided into 2 or more smaller doses. Your doctor may increase your dose by 50 milligrams per day every 3 or 4 days. Total dosage should not exceed 400 milligrams per day, divided into smaller doses.

Which, again, is what Foster was prescribed. 150mg a day, taken in divided doses (three 50mg pills).

Quote:

he daily dosage is usually administered in three divided doses. ... snip ... Depression - The optimal dosage is between 300 - 400 mg/day. It is suggested that a starting dose of 150 mg/day is given for the first week, increasing to 300 mg/day or higher according to the clinical response (600 mg/day dosage has been reported).

Which, again, is what Foster was prescribed. 150mg a day.

Quote:

For relief of depression. ... snip ... An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days. The maximum dose for out patients usually should not exceed 400 mg/day in divided doses.

Which, once again, is what Foster was prescribed. 150mg a day, taken in divided doses (three 50mg pills).

Quote:

DESYREL is indicated for the treatment of depression. ...snip ... An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days. The maximum dose for outpatients usually should not exceed 400 mg/day in divided doses.

Which, shockingly yet again, is what Foster was prescribed. 150mg a day, taken in divided doses (three 50mg pills).

Quote:

Adults—Oral, to start, 50 milligrams per dose taken three times a day, or 75 milligrams per dose taken two times a day. Your doctor may increase your dose if needed.

Gasp! And Foster was prescribed three 50mg doses a day!

Quote:

The main indication for the use of trazodone is major depressive disorder. There is a clear dose-response relationship, with dosages of 250 to 600 mg a day being necessary for trazodone to have therapeutic benefit.

Main, but not only. An odd thing for you to quote in "support" of your position, since your entire argument is based on the fact that Desyrel has other uses. It also doesn't contradict all the other sources which say Desyrel should be started at 150mg (what Foster was prescribed), and increased only after physician review, to get to the higher dosages.

*snip list of links showing a range of dosages for insomnia, with the max at 150mg*

Again, it's extremely unlikely that a doctor would immediately prescribe the maximum dose of anything for a patient - if Watkins did so, it would make his prescription for Foster extremely unusual. Especially in light of the fact that Foster admitted to depression, and if Watkins gave him a prescription for depression, then the prescription would be utterly bog-standard and not unusual at all.

Quote:

For the treatment of depression, the dose for adults is 150-600 mg per day. The initial starting dose usually is 150 mg per day. ... snip ... Doses of 25-75 mg are prescribed for insomnia.

You not only quoted this, you added a smiley afterwards. And yet, Foster's prescription was for 150mg, the depression dose listed, and twice the maximum listed right there for insomnia!

Quote:

Even if we accept the possibility that ANTpogo is so driven to believe Foster's death was a suicide that he is willing to believe his one source over a dozen others (and I could have supplied hundreds more),

Yes, all those sources which say the depression dose for Desyrel is 150mg in divided doses, when Foster's doctor prescribed exactly that.

Quote:

And yet I have no trouble whatsoever finding sources that say that isn't true at all ... finding posters on the internet medical forums stating they were prescribed 100 mg or 150 mg for insomnia ...

"Rarely" is not "never". And scouring internet message boards to cherrypick anecdotal anyonymous posters isn't exactly a good statistical study of dosage variation.

Quote:

finding websites with recommended dosages of up to 150 mg (just like Foster's prescription) for insomnia.

"Up to" is not "starting". 150 mg for insomnia right off the bat is odd. 150 mg for depression right off the bat, though, is exactly in line with all those sources you quoted above.

Quote:

No, that's only your interpretation. Watkins said nothing about needing to treat any depression in either FBI interview or notes.

"He did feel that he had some mild depression. I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg. He was to start with one at bedtime and move up to three."

Quote:

No he didn't "explicitly prescribe" the drug for depression and no he didn't "directly associate" it with depression. You are {wrong}.

I'm sure you think pretending to have "edited" your accusations like you did when Tricky admonished you is quite clever.

Quote:

Oh my he was stressed and making mistakes. We should all commit suicide, I guess, because we are all pretty stressed right now.

Taking a page from Galileo, I see.

Quote:

And more likely, his death was in some way related to the things he couldn't talk about that he was doing for the Clintons. Perhaps something to do with their blind trust ... which was behind schedule in being completed for some unknown reason? Or perhaps something to do with all that material that Clinton administration staffers were observed removing from Foster's office after his death (which the staffers later denied doing under oath)?

"We discussed the possibility of taking Axid or Zantac to help with any ulcer symptoms as he was under a lot of stress. He was concerned about the criticism they were getting and the long hours he was working at the White House. He did feel that he had some mild depression."

Quote:

Funny that she didn't mention that to the investigators the first week after his death. Not till after that meeting in the Whitehouse. And say, what was that $286,000 payment to Lisa that Sheila handled about?

Are you really suggesting that Foster's sister paid off Foster's wife to cover up his death?

Quote:

You mean prescribing one of the drugs most commonly prescribed for insomnia.

No, I mean prescribing one of the drugs most commonly prescribed in 1993 for depression.

Quote:

Yeah ... the quack who could say with "100% certainty" it was a suicide. Despite all the facts I've brought to light here in this and the other thread. And that's not evidence. That's just a conclusion.

Dr. Bermanis the executive director of the American Association of Suicidology. His bio reads "Director of the National Center for the Study and Prevention of Suicide at the Washington School of Psychiatry (1991-1995) and a tenured full-professor of Psychology at American University (1969-1991). Lanny has published 7 books, the latest being the 2nd edition of Adolescent Suicide: Assessment and Intervention, and more than 100 peer-reviewed articles in Suicidology and suicide prevention. He is the recipient of both AAS’s Shneidman and Dublin Awards for outstanding research contributions to Suicidology and to suicide prevention and a past-president (1984-1985) of AAS. Board certified as an ABPP diplomate in clinical psychology, he is an elected Fellow of the American Psychological Association and the International Academy of Suicide Research. He holds a BA degree from the Johns Hopkins University and a Ph.D. from the Catholic University of America."

But I'm sure he knows much less about suicide than you do, BAC.

Quote:

But I thought you just got done telling us what the doctor said is "irrelevant".

No, I said that the fact that Watkins didn't conclude that Foster was clinically depressed is irrelevant, since Watkins was given neither the time nor opportunity to diagnose Foster properly.

Quote:

And you've offered no evidence that the doctor prescribed the medication because Foster said he was a little depressed.

"[H]e was under a lot of stress. He was concerned about the criticism they were getting and the long hours he was working at the White House. He did feel that he had some mild depression. I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg. He was to start with one at bedtime and move up to three."

Quote:

Yes, curious that we have such a dramatic change in what Sheila Anthony (who held a high office in the Clinton Department of Justice, by the way) said. For 8 days the record shows her saying one thing, then on day nine, shortly after a meeting in the Whitehouse attended by all those who dramatically changed their stories, she suddenly offers a completely different account. You don't have to be a skeptic to figure this out.

Quote:

All we really know for certain (given Fiske's and Starr's ability to make up evidence like claiming Lisa Foster's "fighting depression" and the oven mitt) (and given and someone else's ability to create evidence like the suicide note) is that Foster never talked to any of them. Now a psychiatrist reportedly did tell the FBI he was contacted by Foster sister, Sheila on July 16th. But perhaps Shiela was only laying the groundwork for a later suicide claim?

So, you are claiming that Foster's sister was somehow both involved in the coverup of Foster's death by calling a psychiatrist on behalf of her brother the Friday before his death to "lay the groundwork" for a suicide claim...and yet spending eight days after his death denying that he was depressed and therefore potentially suicidal?

Quote:

You know there are some very odd things about the note with the names of the psychiatrists. The Washington post reported on July 28 that "White House official searching the office of Vincent Foster, Jr. last week found a note indicating the 48 year- old deputy White House counsel may have considered psychiatric help shortly before he died". Then 2 days later a Washington Post article said the note was found in Foster automobile at Fort Marcy Park, and contained the name of TWO psychiatrists, not three. Then when the police report was issued, there were suddenly 3 names. And Miquel Rodriguez (Starr's top investigator for a time) and others in the OIC's office have noted that the name not originally reported by the Washington post looks as if it was written by a different hand ... and not Foster's. And isn't it odd that the first time this note is mentioned in police records is July 27th, a week after the police had evidence from the car in hand.

So, news items from just a week after the death of a political figure are such an accurate, impeachable resource that contradictions mean coverup? And police investigators poring through reams of evidence should have fully catalogued everything in less than a week, so the first mention of the details of a particular item coming just eight days after it was collected from the crime scene is so suspicious as to cast doubt on its entire provenance?

Quote:

Well, you have to admit that judges don't normally allow just anything to be attached to important government reports.

How many submitted attachments did the panel of judges deny, BAC? How many were there total?

Quote:

This is just more spin. But at least now you aren't falsely claiming that any thing submitted had to be attached to the report, *by law*.

That wasn't my claim. I said that Starr had to let anyone named submit a statement. The judges ruled that the statement should be attached to the report...exactly as per the law I quoted.

Quote:

Then you admit that your bold claim was {wrong}.

What bold claim? You're the one trying to say that the judges agreeing to have Knowlton's statement defending himself against accusations of perjury, mental instability, and homosexuality somehow means that the judges agreed with everything Knowlton claimed and concluded in his rambling, self-contradictory statement.

Quote:

Why paraphrase, when you can just cite exactly what Knowlton says? So you can put in quotes a statement that Knowlton did not make?

If you spent a little more time reading my posts and less time making pathetic "edits" to your accusations, you might have seen where I did just that right above the sentence you quoted.

Here, I'll even do it again:

"In re North, Id. Mr. Knowlton merely seeks to refute allegations that he is:

(1) A liar and perjurer;

(2) A homosexual; and

(3) Mentally unstable."

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

The doctor said "I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg. He was to start with one at bedtime and move up to three."

Regardless, the dose was fully within the dose recommended by countless doctors for treating insomnia (as my links prove) and well below the effective dose for treating depression (as my links prove). Which is directly counter to what you claimed.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Note the lack of any option given to Foster there. The doctor wanted Foster on 150mg of Desyrel.

Regardless, the dose was fully within the the dose routinely recommended for treating insomnia. And if depression was the concern, wouldn't the doctor have left "no option" about moving the dose up to what the literature says is the effective therapeutic dose for Desyrel ... some 400 mg or so?

There are several other things that are odd about Dr Watkin's note (as opposed to his FBI testimony which was taken a week after Foster's death). Don't any of you so-called skeptics find it curious that Dr Watkins would write this note to himself the day after he heard of Foster's deat, but would not tell authorities about it? Fiske never mentioned such a note. No, this note does not surface until Starr's investigation, much, much later. One wonders, with Starr creating bogus evidence like the oven mitt, might a note from the doctor be equally after-the-fact bogus evidence?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

What did the doctor prescribe Foster again?

Tell me something, ANTpogo. Are you aware that Dr Watkins had previously prescribed sleeping pills for Foster? The FBI interview of Lisa Foster on May 9, 1993 states "In terms of other drugs which may have been prescribed for Foster in the past, Lisa Foster is aware of the sleeping pill Restoril having been prescribed." And given that we have both Lisa and the doctor also saying that Foster was concerned about becoming addicted to the sleeping pills, isn't it more likely that Dr Watkins was prescribing a replacement to the Restoril ... one that isn't habit forming? Like Desyrel?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

I don't know how many prescriptions you've taken, BAC, but in the past when I've been given a medication in the afternoon that I'm supposed to take three times a day, I start with the one evening dose that first day, and don't take all three doses at once.

See the desperation, folks? Now ANTpogo wants you to believe that Dr Watkins started Foster out on a dose of 150 mg per day, even though the doctor stated that "I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg."

Doesn't ANTpogo know (he should) that Foster was only prescribed 30 50 mg tablets? Is ANTpogo claiming that Foster was only prescribed 10 days medication for "clinical" depression?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Which, again, is what Foster was prescribed. 150mg a day, taken in divided doses (three 50mg pills).

I guess ANTpogo is also unaware that the FBI is reported to have interviewed the owner of the prescribing pharmacy as part of the Fiske investigation. That certainly seems likely. According to http://www.electric-america.com/99/Foster_coverup.htm

Quote:

in the words of the FBI interview of the owner of the pharmacy, the prescription indicated "one to three tablets or 50 to 150 milligrams was prescribed to be taken prior to bedtime."

That doesn't say "divided doses" and nothing that Watkins is reported to have said or written called for "divided doses" either. You are now so desperate you are simply making things up ... fabricating things just like Starr clearly did.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Now trazodone is used only off-label for insomnia, but back then it was a common antidepressant.

Back in 1993, it was also a common insomnia drug.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Foster was prescribed divided doses as in "other purposes" (like for depression), not a single dose (like for insomnia).

{WRONG} There no evidence, whatsoever, that Foster was prescribed "divided doses". See what I mean about beating one's head against ANTpogo's partisan delusions, folks? There really isn't much point in continuing this with him, is there. No more than there was on the previous thread, when he began to do the same thing.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

And scouring internet message boards to cherrypick anecdotal anyonymous posters isn't exactly a good statistical study of dosage variation.

I notice you didn't come up with any more sources to support your claim that "Foster was prescribed a dose much higher than the insomnia dose". Having trouble locating them? ROTFLOL! And I didn't have to do much "scouring" ... just look at the first few pages among hundreds of hits that came up in my search.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

And say, what was that $286,000 payment to Lisa that Sheila handled about?

Are you really suggesting that Foster's sister paid off Foster's wife to cover up his death?

I'm just asking you to explain a $286,000 dollar payment that was made to Lisa Foster by Sheila Foster from a DNC account just a week before Foster died. Can't you do that?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Quote:
You mean prescribing one of the drugs most commonly prescribed for insomnia.

No, I mean prescribing one of the drugs most commonly prescribed in 1993 for depression.

But it was also commonly prescribed for insomnia back then too.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Quote:
Yeah ... the quack who could say with "100% certainty" it was a suicide. Despite all the facts I've brought to light here in this and the other thread. And that's not evidence. That's just a conclusion.

Dr. Bermanis the executive director of the American Association of Suicidology.

Ok, a "quack" with *credentials* then.

Read this folks: http://www.aim.org/aim-report/aim-re...-loud-silence/

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

No, I said that the fact that Watkins didn't conclude that Foster was clinically depressed is irrelevant, since Watkins was given neither the time nor opportunity to diagnose Foster properly.

And yet you, Fiske and Starr claim he prescribed Desyrel to treat clinical depression. See the inconsistency here, folks?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Quote:
Yes, curious that we have such a dramatic change in what Sheila Anthony (who held a high office in the Clinton Department of Justice, by the way) said. For 8 days the record shows her saying one thing, then on day nine, shortly after a meeting in the Whitehouse attended by all those who dramatically changed their stories, she suddenly offers a completely different account. You don't have to be a skeptic to figure this out.

Quote:
All we really know for certain (given Fiske's and Starr's ability to make up evidence like claiming Lisa Foster's "fighting depression" and the oven mitt) (and given and someone else's ability to create evidence like the suicide note) is that Foster never talked to any of them. Now a psychiatrist reportedly did tell the FBI he was contacted by Foster sister, Sheila on July 16th. But perhaps Shiela was only laying the groundwork for a later suicide claim?

So, you are claiming that Foster's sister was somehow both involved in the coverup of Foster's death by calling a psychiatrist on behalf of her brother the Friday before his death to "lay the groundwork" for a suicide claim...and yet spending eight days after his death denying that he was depressed and therefore potentially suicidal?

There is no question that for 8 days after Foster's death, Sheila Anthony never mentioned depression once to investigators and specifically denied it, when asked if he was depressed or on medication for depression. That's a undeniable fact. It's a matter of public record and easily proven to be fact.

Now she and a pathologist CLAIM they had a conversation on July 16th about Foster's depression. But that claim only surfaced after a meeting in the Whitehouse a week after Foster's death (which coincidentally included a number of other people who suddenly changed their stories after the meeting about depression). Tell me folks ... is it beyond the realm of possibility that this conversation never actually took place?

Afterall, I've already presented evidence that the FBI and OIC altered a statement from Lisa Foster regarding depression. Notice how none of the suicide proponents on this thread seem to want to discuss that evidence?

Afterall, a supposed suicide note appeared in the Whitehouse about the same time as that meeting where everyone changed their story about depression. It was a suicide note that is so obviously bogus that you may noticed none of the suicide proponents on this thread now want to even discuss it. But Starr claimed it was authentic.

Afterall, we have Lisa Foster being pressured by the FBI and IOC to say the black gun supposedly found in Foster's hand was the silver gun she brought to Washington. And suddenly changing her statements about depression after that mysterious meeting in the Whitehouse. Notice how none of the suicide proponents wanted to really talk about that? Notice that none of them wanted to talk about the statements under oath by the first person to see Foster's body that there was no gun in Foster's hand? Notice that none of them want to talk about the evidence (statements by multiple individuals who were at the Park) that Foster's body was moved between the time it was found and the photographs the IOC claims show a gun? Notice that none of the suicide proponents want to go anywhere near testimony that the original photos disappeared? Or that x-rays disappeared.

Afterall, we have Patrick Knowlton charging that the IOC and FBI tampered with his testimony. Notice how ANTpogo is attempting to discredit Knowlton ... by continuing the smears and insinuations the IOC started?

Afterall, we have Starr's top investigator charging that the evidence of a bullet wound in the head is fabricated, and that the real evidence (both witness statements and a photograph) clearly show a bullet wound in the neck ... which Fiske and Starr denied exists. Notice how none of the suicide proponents wanted to discuss this either. Notice how the government would rather let these allegations continue to be voiced than silence them by releasing one photo of the wound that was supposedly in Foster's head?

Afterall, we have the oven mitt, that Starr introduced to explain the lack of fingerprints on the alleged suicide gun. Again, notice how none of the suicide proponents want to go there. But I'm happy to go there. For example, here's the picture that Starr provided of the oven mitt:



Notice where he claimed they found the mitt? In the glove compartment. But ask yourself ... how did Foster get the gun to the supposed suicide location deep in the park where he supposedly shot himself without getting finger prints on it? He wore no gloves.

There is even more mystery to this oven mitt *evidence*. Here's a picture of the car taken when it was still at Fort Marcy Park:



Notice the material on the floor of the front passenger seat? Now look back and observe that the picture Starr offered as the oven mitt evidence has no debris on the floor? Obviously, Starr's oven mitt photo would have to have been taken after the floor was cleaned of debris. But do you know it's a matter of public record that Detective Braun emptied the glovebox (her list of items does not include an oven mitt, by the way) six hours before records indicate detective Smith removed and catalogued the debris on the passenger side floor (a list that also did not include an oven mitt). You don't have to be much of a skeptic, folks, to know this is clear proof that Starr fabricated the oven mitt evidence.

And if the IOC was willing to fake evidence like this, do you really imagine they wouldn't be willing to claim a conversation between two people which was never recorded, it they thought it would help bolster their tenuous theory?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Quote:
This is just more spin. But at least now you aren't falsely claiming that any thing submitted had to be attached to the report, *by law*.

That wasn't my claim.

FALSE. That's exactly what you were trying to claim. Here is what you wrote: "Any statement he wanted to make regarding the events which caused his name to be mentioned in the report would be attached. ... snip ... By law, the statement had to be included".

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

The judges ruled that the statement should be attached to the report...exactly as per the law I quoted.

FALSE AGAIN. The law does not say the statement must be attached to the report. The law says that's up to the DISCRETION of the judges. Which you initially and clearly tried to claim wasn't the case. You are {wrong}.

I'm done with you, ANTpogo. It's as much a waste of time to continue discussing this with you now as it was the first time. But I hope others found our exchange quite illuminating.

[BeAChooser]

Now, for the benefit of other readers and REAL skeptics, some more witness statements regarding Foster's REAL mental state (as opposed to the one concocted by the Clinton Adminstration, the IOCs, and the Clinton/Obama supporters on this thread):

http://www.aim.org/aim-report/aim-re...ort-on-foster/

Quote:

- President Clinton spoke on the phone to Foster for 20-25 minutes the night before he died. "He described no symptoms or behavioral problems other than that Mr. Foster seemed tired."

- Marsha Scott, aide to the President, had a long meeting with Foster on July 19. She did not see any depression.

- David Watkins, Assistant to the President for Management and Administration, saw Foster every day and noticed nothing unusual about his mood or behavior.

- Betsy Pond, White House Counsel Nussbaum's secretary, saw nothing wrong with Foster's mental state.

- Nancy Hernreich, Deputy Assistant to the President, saw no changes.

- Beth Nolan, Associate White House Counsel, noticed nothing different.

- Bernard Nussbaum, White House Counsel, did not see Foster as mentally troubled, but "he did see a marked diminution of Foster's work in the final weeks."

And from the same source, let me indicate a few other factors that suggest this wasn't a case of suicide:

Quote:

NO SUICIDE THREAT OR ALLUSIONS TO SUICIDE: No one ever heard Mr. Foster threaten or discuss suicide. A full 80% of all successful suicides have either threatened or alluded to suicide. ... snip ...

NO SUICIDE NOTE: It is true that only 12-20% of people who commit suicide leave a note. It is also true Mr. Foster was passionately committed to his children and family. He was of an orderly mind and was compassionate and empathic. One would expect, if not a note, a distinct effort to put his financial and other affairs in order.

NO SUICIDE ATTEMPTS OR RISKY IMPULSIVE ACTIONS IN RESPECT TO HIS HEALTH AND SAFETY ... snip ...

FUTURE ORIENTATION: Mr. Foster anticipated and planned. The indications for future orientation are many. Examples include speaking to Brugh (his youngest son) on the 19th about buying a boat, planning to take his sister and niece to the White House Mess on the 21st, and arranging lunch with Mr. Lyons the following week. On the 19th of July, he agreed to a meeting with President Clinton on the 21st. On the 19th or 20th he wrote a matter-of-fact letter to his mother regarding some oil leases. His mother was to sign and return the oil leases. The last thing he said as he left the White House was, "I'll be back." ... snip ...

MENTAL STATE ON THE MORNING OF THE 20TH OF JULY 1993: According to his wife and children he was actually in better spirits that morning than he had been in the last week. ... snip ... No one in the office felt he was depressed, unusual or troubled on the 20th. He even ate his usual lunch and read his usual newspaper.

[oldhat]

Quote:

MENTAL STATE ON THE MORNING OF THE 20TH OF JULY 1993: According to his wife and children he was actually in better spirits that morning than he had been in the last week. ... snip ... No one in the office felt he was depressed, unusual or troubled on the 20th. He even ate his usual lunch and read his usual newspaper.

Did you know psychiatrists and social workers are trained to look for this when treating suicidal patients? It's a serious warning sign if a suicidal person suddenly appears happy or in better spirits. It's an red light indicator that a suicidal person has finally settled on a method and a time to commit suicide after going through the agonizing process of deciding where and how to do it. The relief comes from secretly knowing "it will all be over soon."

BeAChooser, have you ever heard of Charles Koch or David Brock?

[Galileo]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

Galileo, could I ask you please not to quote long posts in their entirety just to post one liners? If need be, copy the first line of the post, then put "... snip ..." and then copy the last line of the post you want to respond to, before typing your comment. Thanks.

OK, will do. I appreciate your research and expertise regarding the Vince Foster case. I initially only belived there was reasonable doubt as to whether Foster committed suicide. Now I am convinced he did not commit suicide.

Your evidence is very strong.

[Galileo]

Originally Posted by oldhat

Did you know psychiatrists and social workers are trained to look for this when treating suicidal patients? It's a serious warning sign if a suicidal person suddenly appears happy or in better spirits. It's an red light indicator that a suicidal person has finally settled on a method and a time to commit suicide after going through the agonizing process of deciding where and how to do it. The relief comes from secretly knowing "it will all be over soon."

BeAChooser, have you ever heard of Charles Koch or David Brock?

you remind me of the kooks who argue that cold weather is evidence for global warming.

[Galileo]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

You don't have to be much of a skeptic, folks, to know this is clear proof that Starr fabricated the oven mitt evidence.

BeAChooser;

This was a great post. Please be aware that according to JRERer doctrine, evidence is never fabricated, even when there is evidence that evidence was fabricated.

[SmartyPants]

Originally Posted by Galileo

you remind me of the kooks who argue that cold weather is evidence for global warming.

Uh, no, sorry. oldhat's assertion is common knowledge within the psychological community. I have a BS in Psychology, and this something you pretty much learn the first week in an abnormal psych class.

But since I doubt you'll take my word for it, here are some linksyou can look at. You'll notice the numerous references to calmness after making the decision to kill oneself.

I mean, really, it's laughable that anyone would scoff at this.

Furthermore, Foster didn't have to be depressed or diagnosed with depression to want to kill himself. Check under the "Causes" sections of the links I've posted. There are other reasons why Foster may have wanted to commit suicide, although he certainly was depressed, so your argument continues to weaken. When you exhibit obvious warning signs of suicidal behavior along with the fact that he's physically linked to the gun, then it's pretty obvious how he died.

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

FALSE. That's exactly what you were trying to claim. Here is what you wrote: "Any statement he wanted to make regarding the events which caused his name to be mentioned in the report would be attached. ... snip ... By law, the statement had to be included".

FALSE AGAIN. The law does not say the statement must be attached to the report. The law says that's up to the DISCRETION of the judges. Which you initially and clearly tried to claim wasn't the case. You are {wrong}.

Here's what I actually said, before you edited to falsely claim I said something I didn't.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

That's because the attachment means nothing. Legally, Starr had to let anyone mentioned in the report submit their own statement. The judges on the IOC panel ruled that Knowlton had not been given that opportunity, and so Starr had to include Knowlton's statement as an addendum. They didn't rule at all that Knowlton was correct, or that his facts were the true facts of the matter. Any statement he wanted to make regarding the events which caused his name to be mentioned in the report would be attached.

Knowlton's attached statement thus has as little bearing on the truth of the case as any of the "witness statements" in Berg's lawsuit saying Obama isn't a citizen has on the truth of that case. By law, the statement had to be included, but it did not alter the verdict Starr reached in his report, nor did the judges say it did.

First you took my statement that the content of Knowlton's statement was irrelevant to the attachment order itself because they weren't ruling on the merits or veracity of the statement, only that "the report is full and complete and to afford [him] a measure of fairness" (ie, Knowlton could have written "I am a fish" on his statement, and if the judges said it should be attached to make sure Knowlton got treated fairly, then it would be attached - and, in fact, Knowlton's request to the panel was specifically about defending himself from allegations of being insane, gay, and a liar, which is why judges let him have his say, not because they thought he had blown the lid off of Starr's coverup).

Then you took another statement of mine that because the judges ordered the statement attached, then Starr had to, by the wording of the cited law, include the statement in his report, and yet the ordered attachment didn't change the conclusions of Starr's report in any way, shape, or form (nor did the judges say anything to even imply that in their ruling).

Then you edited out all the context to make it look like I was really claiming that the law itself said that if Knowlton wanted to make a statement, period, then it would automatically have to be included with the report. And then you try to reinforce your chopping and twisting of my words by pretending I've been ignoring the judges' role in all this when the very bit you sliced out talks about how the only reason Knowlton's statement was even included was because the judges ruled that it should be.

Quote:

I'm done with you, ANTpogo. It's as much a waste of time to continue discussing this with you now as it was the first time. But I hope others found our exchange quite illuminating.

Yes, I hope they read the above bit especially, and find it enlightening.

I sure did.

[Galileo]

Originally Posted by SmartyPants

Uh, no, sorry. oldhat's assertion is common knowledge within the psychological community. I have a BS in Psychology, and this something you pretty much learn the first week in an abnormal psych class.

But since I doubt you'll take my word for it, here are some linksyou can look at. You'll notice the numerous references to calmness after making the decision to kill oneself.

I mean, really, it's laughable that anyone would scoff at this.

Furthermore, Foster didn't have to be depressed or diagnosed with depression to want to kill himself. Check under the "Causes" sections of the links I've posted. There are other reasons why Foster may have wanted to commit suicide, although he certainly was depressed, so your argument continues to weaken. When you exhibit obvious warning signs of suicidal behavior along with the fact that he's physically linked to the gun, then it's pretty obvious how he died.

So Foster killed himself because he was calm? Check!

[oldhat]

Originally Posted by Galileo

So Foster killed himself because he was calm? Check!

No, you're really belying your ignorance about how people with mental illness behave. The stereotype of someone moping around in a bathrobe crying "woe is me," is just that, a stereotype. Most people with depression appear more or less normal. They get dressed. They go to work. But their inner lives are hell. Depression isn't "being sad." Sadness and depression are two separate things.

Vince Foster killed himself because:

1. He had clinical depression due to work stress. He felt he was a failure at work due to the "Travelgate" non-scandal and he felt persecuted by the WSJ.
2. He and his doctor hadn't reached a therapeutic blood level of Trazodone. This can take anywhere from two weeks to two months or more, Foster was taking Trazodone for days.
3. Most crucially, he had instant access to a firearm.

The risk of a suicidal person completing suicide goes up astronomically if that person has a firearm at hand. This is why if a suicidal person calls a suicide prevention line or 911, the first question the operator asks is "Do you have a firearm with you?"

I want to ask Galileo and BAC again, do either of you know who Charles Koch and David Brock are? They are two important figures when it comes to the creation of the right wing's Clinton mythology. You're not getting the full picture of how the Vince Foster suicide story got started if you don't know who they are.

[Galileo]

Originally Posted by oldhat

No, you're really belying your ignorance about how people with mental illness behave. The stereotype of someone moping around in a bathrobe crying "woe is me," is just that, a stereotype. Most people with depression appear more or less normal. They get dressed. They go to work. But their inner lives are hell. Depression isn't "being sad." Sadness and depression are two separate things.

Vince Foster killed himself because:

1. He had clinical depression due to work stress. He felt he was a failure at work due to the "Travelgate" non-scandal and he felt persecuted by the WSJ.
2. He and his doctor hadn't reached a therapeutic blood level of Trazodone. This can take anywhere from two weeks to two months or more, Foster was taking Trazodone for days.
3. Most crucially, he had instant access to a firearm.

The risk of a suicidal person completing suicide goes up astronomically if that person has a firearm at hand. This is why if a suicidal person calls a suicide prevention line or 911, the first question the operator asks is "Do you have a firearm with you?"

I want to ask Galileo and BAC again, do either of you know who Charles Koch and David Brock are? They are two important figures when it comes to the creation of the right wing's Clinton mythology. You're not getting the full picture of how the Vince Foster suicide story got started if you don't know who they are.

Foster did not have mental illness. That is just an ad hoc explanation.

Foster was probably taken out because he was honest and knew too much about the Waco mass murder and the FBI involvement in the '93 WTC bombing.

[SmartyPants]

Originally Posted by Galileo

So Foster killed himself because he was calm? Check!

Uh, no. This has already been explained. He didn't kill himself because he was calm. Assuming it was depression and the current, dire circumstances of his life (Causes), he killled himself. The decision to kill himself ridded him (Symptom) of the anxiety of trying to make such a decision and the other circumstances of his life (Causes). He was no longer anxious about his state because "he knew it (his life) was going to end soon." No more worries (Symptom) about his life (Cause). He could breathe easier (Symptom).

Didn't kill himself BECAUSE he was calm. K, ya got that? I assume you can tell the difference between "Causes" and "Symptons." Or maybe not.

Also, what oldhat said.

[SmartyPants]

Originally Posted by Galileo

Foster did not have mental illness. That is just an ad hoc explanation.

Again, Foster didn't need to be diagnosed with a mental illness in order to kill himself. Check the "Causes" sections of the links I've posted for you. I've noticed it's gone from his actual diagnoses to the broad field of mental illness, by the way.

Originally Posted by Galileo

Foster was probably taken out because he was honest and knew too much about the Waco mass murder and the FBI involvement in the '93 WTC bombing.

Are you going to provide evidence of this? Are going to knock down the suicide evidence we've provided? Or are you just going to continue shouting what's clearly not true, hoping we believe it?

[oldhat]

I'm not saying Vince Foster had a mental illness to make it sound like he was crrrrrraaaaazzzzy or expand the definition of what he had. He wasn't crazy. But he was clinically depressed. I was trying to put his condition into the context of what it was -- a serious medical condition that can be fatal if left untreated -- and what is wasn't. Like a simple case of the blues.

But do you know what is crrrrrraaaaazzzzy? Believing a patently untrue conspiracy theory about the Clintons cooked up by David Brock and his paymasters at the American Spectator. And if you don't believe me that he helped knowingly invent the Vince Foster conspiracy theory, read his book. The one he wrote after the crisis of conscience he had, after spreading so many absurd lies about the Clintons. Utter nonsense like them running Columbian cocaine out of the govenor's mansion and murdering people with freight trains. Yeah, freight trains.

Crrrrrraaaaaazzzzy!

[Galileo]

Originally Posted by SmartyPants

Uh, no. This has already been explained. He didn't kill himself because he was calm. Assuming it was depression and the current, dire circumstances of his life (Causes), he killled himself. The decision to kill himself ridded him (Symptom) of the anxiety of trying to make such a decision and the other circumstances of his life (Causes). He was no longer anxious about his state because "he knew it (his life) was going to end soon." No more worries (Symptom) about his life (Cause). He could breathe easier (Symptom).

Didn't kill himself BECAUSE he was calm. K, ya got that? I assume you can tell the difference between "Causes" and "Symptons." Or maybe not.

Also, what oldhat said.

so all calm people have symptoms of clinical depression and are a threat to commit suicide at a moment's notice?

That would make a good defense for a common murderer.

"Jury, the person who was killed was calm! He had clinical depression and committed suicide! It was not a murder!"

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by SmartyPants

When you exhibit obvious warning signs of suicidal behavior along with the fact that he's physically linked to the gun, then it's pretty obvious how he died.

And what were those obvious warning signs ... that no one apparently noticed until after that meeting in the Whitehouse a week later?

And by the way, can you give us the "obvious" explanation for the oven mitt?

[oldhat]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

And what were those obvious warning signs ... that no one apparently noticed until after that meeting in the Whitehouse a week later?

He had clinical depression, he was carrying a loaded gun around with him. He even wrote a suicide note about how he felt persecuted. Then he killed himself.

What else do you need?

Do you think suicidal people walk around with nooses around their heads and announce their intentions to their co-workers?

Do you know how batty a conspiracy theory has to be if it requires Ken Starr to be in cahoots with Bill Clinton in the cover-up portion? Ken Starr? Do you know how little sense that makes? Were you alive during any portion of the 1990s?

Also, how come you still haven't answered my questions about how David Brock, Charles Koch and Richard Mellon Scaife all tie into the spreading of this rumor? Do you know what the Arkansas Project was?

All you're doing is recycling lies created by Republican partisans with huge axes to grind. Specifially Charles Koch and Richard Mellon Scaife. Ted Olsen literally created this story out of thin air. Read "Blinded By The Right" by David Brock if you're serious about doing "research." I know you won't but it's worth trying.

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by oldhat

Vince Foster killed himself because:

1. He had clinical depression

ABSOLUTELY FALSE. There has been no evidence offered to prove he had "clinical" depression. NONE. The doctor said his depression was "mild" and situational, which is not the same as "clinical" depression. No one even said he was depressed at all ... until a week after he died ... until after a meeting at the whitehouse that *believers* like you clearly don't want to talk about. A meeting that was supposedly convened to discuss the bogus suicide note, that *believers* like you also don't want to talk about.

Originally Posted by oldhat

2. He and his doctor hadn't reached a therapeutic blood level of Trazodone.

It was at the level needed to help him sleep (the other common use of trazodone that you apparently are just going to ignore) ... which the doctor said Foster called complaining about and which the doctor thought would make Foster feel a "lot better".

Originally Posted by oldhat

Foster was taking Trazodone for days.

FALSE. Foster was only prescribed 30 pills and investigators said there were 29 pills still in the bottle. At least *try* to get the facts right.

Originally Posted by oldhat

3. Most crucially, he had instant access to a firearm.

Now I already posted some questions about the gun ... THAT ALL OF YOU SIMPLY IGNORED. And I can't help but notice that you also don't want to talk about the oven mitt (how'd Foster not get his fingerprints on the gun since he wore no gloves), or the testimony of the first witness' to see Foster's body (there was no gun in Foster's hand), or Dr Haut's report (that the exit wound was in his neck, not his head, and that the wound was made by a low velocity round which is inconsistent with claimed suicide weapon), or the other witness statements (which also all placed the exit wound on the neck and ruled out an exit wound at the back of the head), or Miquel Rodriguez's analysis of the one available photo (which he said shows a wound in the neck).

Let me add more questions. Why was there no blood on the gun, oldhat? Why was there no blood on Foster's hand or the white sleeve of his shirt? Why did witness after witness say there was no blood at the supposed suicide location before the body was moved (surely with the 1" by 1-1/4" hole that Fiske and Starr claimed was in the top of Foster's head there would have been lots of blood all over)? Why was no bullet found despite repeated and extensive searches of the area?

How do you explain the fact that no matching bullets were found for the claimed suicide gun either at Foster's house or in his car? The claimed suicide weapon is a .38 revolver built from parts taken from two guns and has no serial number. Was this really the gun in Foster household like you seem to believe, oldhat? In ALL documents and witness statements in the weeks and months following Foster's death, the gun was described as BLACK. The photos published by the IOC showed it to be BLACK. Yet Lisa Foster testified that the ONLY gun in their house was a chrome plated, "silver" colored one. A little odd, don't you think?

Even more odd is why FBI agents, when interviewing Lisa Foster in an effort to get her to identify the suicide weapon, described the gun to her as "silver colored", not just once but repeatedly? In fact, the agents wrote down that "LISA FOSTER believes that the gun found at Fort Marcy Park may be the silver gun which she brought up with her other belongings when she permanently moved to Washington." You'd think that the agents would have known the gun supposedly found at Fort Marcy Park was black.

You see, there is a lot to this story (just in the gun issue alone) that you are simply ignoring ... because you are DESPERATE to label Foster's death a suicide. One begins to wonder why you are so obviously desperate?

Originally Posted by oldhat

I want to ask Galileo and BAC again, do either of you know who Charles Koch and David Brock are?

Do you know who Ron Brown was, oldhat? You're not getting the full picture of what the Clintons were capable of doing unless you know the facts in that case too.

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by SmartyPants

Are going to knock down the suicide evidence we've provided?

SP, you haven't provided any "evidence" at all. But you sure are desperate to ignore a lot. For example, ... that oven mitt ... got an explanation?

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by oldhat

Do you know how batty a conspiracy theory has to be if it requires Ken Starr to be in cahoots with Bill Clinton in the cover-up portion?

What's the problem, oldhat? Having trouble actually dealing with the facts in the Foster case?

So you think Starr is above suspicion?

Then I assume you can explain the oven mitt? And what Miquel Rodriguez' (Starr's own investigator) had to say about Starr's investigation? And you can explain why Starr failed to tell the three judge panel and the public about an FBI memo to the Director of the FBI written two days after Foster's death stating that the shot was fired into Foster's mouth without leaving an exit wound, which directly contradicts Starr's report which says there was an exit wound over an inch in diameter in the back of the head?

I assume you can explain why it is that Starr told the public that the FBI files in Filegate had been returned to the FBI, when we learned years later, during an interview with IOC Ray, that the files were still in White House hands? Clearly, Starr lied. I assume you can explain why Starr spent just a few minutes questioning Hillary Clinton during his Filegate investigation, even though he had sworn testimony at the time that she was the mastermind behind the activity and had clearly lied about certain facts in the case? He also failed to ask the key witness, Linda Tripp, numerous important questions. Tripp commented about this later on, expressing her surprise at how little he delved into the matter. Most of the missing files in Filegate were discovered not by Starr, but by that little outfit, Judicial Watch. And Starr never did learn who hired Mark Livingstone (you know who he is, don't you?). Turns out it was Hillary ... or so admits Livingstone now. Yet Hillary claimed she didn't even know Mark Livingstone ... even though there were numerous pictures of the two together. Guess Starr never asked her about that.

It's not so implausible that Starr was Clinton's man from the beginning. Afterall, Starr was the name recommended by Janet Reno for the job of IOC, and you can be sure that Janet didn't do anything that Clinton didn't fully vet before hand. The truth is that Starr didn't spend much time investigating anything that didn't involve turning the impeachment of Clinton into just a sex scandal ... which he and Clinton may have known could be minimized by a friendly media. I think that was his purpose.

I think that explains why Starr failed to investigate other far more serious scandals ... like CampaignFinanceGate, Chinagate and Ron Brown's death (which may have been related to the other two). Is it just coicidence that Starr was all ready to close up shop and go home, when the Ron Brown scandal broke and began to get some play by the media and in the black community? Then, all of a sudden, he "discovered" Monica and any rumors that Ron Brown's death wasn't an accident just disappeared from view. My bet is that Clinton and Starr realized that a sleazy sex scandal that probably wouldn't lead to anything would trump a mass murder allegation in the press and public's mind any day of the week. And they were right. And even then, Starr blew the Monica investigation. Rather than trap Clinton with his knowledge of the blue dress' existance and what it showed, he told Clinton they had the dress and thereby lost any chance of catching Clinton committing perjury. I don't believe an honest prosecutor would have done that.

Originally Posted by oldhat

All you're doing is recycling lies created by Republican partisans with huge axes to grind.

The facts I've posted are completely verifiable, oldhat. You haven't posted anything to prove otherwise. You're just unable to explain them ... except by concocting a claim that Foster was "clinically depressed". Just like Fiske and Starr did. And even then you have to completely ignore 99% of the facts I've posted. Just like Fiske and Starr did. Let's see if you address some of questions I asked about the gun and wound ... or you go on ignoring them. Let's see if you do that, or keep posting your David Brock red herring instead of dealing with the facts.

[oldhat]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

It's not so implausible that Starr was Clinton's man from the beginning.

This is just insane.

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

So you think Starr is above suspicion?

Yes, I believe he is "above suspicion." I do not believe Ken Starr conspired with Bill Clinton in a contract murder of Vince Foster.

What you're doing is taking bits and pieces of things that don't seem congruous to you, as a layman with no training in psychiatry or forensics, and turning them into a conspiracy. You're refusing to look at the big picture, like your fixation on the Oven Mitt™.

Option 1: A lawyer has been dogged in the press for months because of a political "scandal." He exhibits symptoms of depression and calls his doctor. He is prescribed an anti-depressant but does not take it long enough for it to develop a therapeutic blood level. His wife corroborates the fact that he's been depressed. He, according to the letter he wrote and tore up in frustration, says he feels like a failure. He owns a handgun. He goes to a park and shoots himself with the handgun.

Option 2: The President of the United States hatches a scheme and orders the murder of Vince Foster, by someone. The unknown conspirators are told to make it look like a suicide. This conspiracy, at a minimum, necessitates cooperation from people within Secret Service, the FBI, the Park Police, the Washington D.C. police, the White House staff, Robert Fiske and even the President's arch political enemy Ken Starr. The conspiracy is so successful and so leak free despite the dozens of people (at a minimum) who had to have been involved, there is no affirmative evidence left behind whatsoever and five separate investigations all rule Foster's death a suicide.

By the way, David Brock's book isn't a red herring, in fact, it's pretty frickin' germane to this theory of yours, in that he admits to helping fabricate the Vince-Foster-was-murdered story as a political smear and then spreading it in the Spectator. He admits it! Once again: He admits helping fabricate this theory! David Brock's book is much more germane than your weird innuendos, like the Oven Mitt of Doom. It's filled with falsifiable statements. Try reading it!

Here's a simple question for you BAC:

If there was a conspiracy, who did it and what's your evidence? Otherwise you're JAQ'ing off.

[SmartyPants]

Originally Posted by Galileo

so all calm people have symptoms of clinical depression and are a threat to commit suicide at a moment's notice?

That would make a good defense for a common murderer.

"Jury, the person who was killed was calm! He had clinical depression and committed suicide! It was not a murder!"

Okay, you clearly didn't read anything in the links. What they said were, people with a history of depression/mental illness, anxiety and sucidial behavior who suddenly become calm seem to be at risk to commit suicide. Why? Because the sudden calmness indicates that he or she has made the decision to commit suicide and are therefore calm, knowing that the decision is out of the way and the suffering will end soon. How you got "all calm people have symptoms of clinical depression are a threat to commit suicide at a moment's notice," I don't know. Actually, I do know: It's a not so clever attempt to misrepresent what is common knowledge. Either that, or you're a walking non sequitur.

[SmartyPants]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

SP, you haven't provided any "evidence" at all. But you sure are desperate to ignore a lot. For example, ... that oven mitt ... got an explanation?

You're being quite selective on my postings. I'm talking about suicidal behavior, and I have provided links (i.e. evidence) that demonstrate one doesn't necessarily have to be clinically depressed to commit suicide (although Foster was, and that certainly helps), and that there often (not always) is a period of calmness before one commits suicide.

If you want something about oven mitts, ask someone else. Others sure have posted enough about the physical evidence. Why don't you ask them?

Oh, I see...it would be easier to ask someone who hasn't posted about it, accuse of him ignoring it, then you yourself ignore my postings on something entirely different.

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by oldhat

This is just insane.

Then you should have no trouble explaining the facts I noted about Starr's investigations.

Don't avoid the questions ... answer them.

Why don't we start with these three:

Why did he lie to the public about the Filegate files being returned?

Why wasn't the oven mitt that he claimed was in Foster's glove compartment (to explain the lack of fingerprints on the gun) listed by the police anywhere in their records? They inventoried the contents of the glove compartment and no oven mitt is mentioned. It's hard to miss that oven mitt.

How can the photo that Starr claimed showed the mitt in the glove compartment have a clean passenger side floor when records show that the glove compartment was emptied and inventoried before the floor on the passenger side was cleared of debris?

Originally Posted by oldhat

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
So you think Starr is above suspicion?

Yes, I believe he is "above suspicion."

Then you should have no trouble answering those questions. You going to answer them or run from them, like you have so many others questions?

Originally Posted by oldhat

Option 1: A lawyer has been dogged in the press for months because of a political "scandal." He exhibits symptoms of depression and calls his doctor. He is prescribed an anti-depressant but does not take it long enough for it to develop a therapeutic blood level. His wife corroborates the fact that he's been depressed. He, according to the letter he wrote and tore up in frustration, says he feels like a failure. He owns a handgun. He goes to a park and shoots himself with the handgun.

ROTFLOL! See how desperate the *it was suicide* crowd is, folks? As I said at the beginning of this this thread, their entire explanation rests on claiming "he was depressed" ... even though NO ONE said he was depressed before that mysterious meeting in the Whitehouse a week after Foster died.

Outside of that claim (and it's nothing more than a claim), they have no evidence that Foster committed suicide.

They don't want to talk about the other use for trazadone (to fight insomnia).

They don't want to talk about the doctor clearly stating that he was treating Foster's sleeping problems.

They don't want to talk about Foster's previous sleeping pill prescription problems.

They don't want to talk about Foster saying he was feeling better and acting quite normal in the days before he died.

They don't want to talk about what other people (besides those few who changed their story a week after his death, after a meeting in the Whitehouse) said about Foster NOT being depressed.

They don't want to talk about what witnesses, doctors, EMTs and a photo indicated was the true nature of Foster's wounds.

They don't want to talk about the true nature of the gun and the fabrication of evidence where that is concerned.

They don't want to talk about what Starr's own investigator said about the investigation being a coverup.

They don't want to talk about the numerous investigators who said the body appeared to have been moved before the photos that Fiske and Starr show the body as it was found were taken.

They don't want to talk about what the man who first found Foster's body said under oath ... that there was no gun in either of Foster's hands and that the position of the body was different in the photos than what he saw.

They don't want to talk about the missing photos and x-rays.

They don't want to talk about the obvious lies by Dr Bergan regarding the wound and x-rays.

They don't want to talk about the bogus suicide note.

They don't want to talk about the alteration of Lisa Fosters statement to the FBI.

They don't want to the intimidation of other witnesses such as Patrick Knowlton.

They don't want to talk about Clinton staffers removing material from Foster's office then lying under oath about doing it.

They don't want to talk about $286000 payment made to Lisa Foster.

They don't want to talk about what Foster was working on for the Clintons.

And I could go on and on and on regarding facts that they simply don't want to talk about.

Their entire defense of the "it was suicide" claim is to simply keep repeating "it was suicide" and hope you'll believe it. That's how desperate they are.

[oldhat]

So you're solidly in the Option 2 camp I take it?

Who did it? Who pulled the trigger? What's your evidence?

I am admittedly intrigued by the oven mitt. You appear to have spent a good amount of time studying the issue. Can you explain what the mysterious oven mitt proves?



Your evidence was gone over again and again in five separate investigations. Are you telling everyone all five investigations were compromised?

How far does this conspiracy go? How many people were involved in your estimation? Please give me a number.

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by oldhat

Can you explain what the mysterious oven mitt proves?

Are you really this dense? I think I made it very clear what it proves.

[oldhat]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

Are you really this dense? I think I made it very clear what it proves.

It proves you think your perception of a chain of custody discrepancy over an incidental oven mitt disproves the entire body of evidence that Vince Foster killed himself.

Your conspiracy theory is too far fetched for anyone to take seriously besides the most paranoid of CTers and rightwing loonies. Hundreds of participants. Five investigations compromised. Half a dozen agencies (at least) all working in perfect coordination, leaving no affirmative evidence behind (a footprint, a fingerprint in Foster's car, anything). No leaks. Ever. First time in history.

The president conspiring with the man who later impeached him, in order to cover up the assassination they planned together.

I mean, it almost sounds crazy.

Ted Olsen made this garbage up! David Brock made it up! They knew it was fake! It's in the book! Why do you refuse to admit this?

[Galileo]

Originally Posted by SmartyPants

Okay, you clearly didn't read anything in the links. What they said were, people with a history of depression/mental illness, anxiety and sucidial behavior who suddenly become calm seem to be at risk to commit suicide. Why? Because the sudden calmness indicates that he or she has made the decision to commit suicide and are therefore calm, knowing that the decision is out of the way and the suffering will end soon. How you got "all calm people have symptoms of clinical depression are a threat to commit suicide at a moment's notice," I don't know. Actually, I do know: It's a not so clever attempt to misrepresent what is common knowledge. Either that, or you're a walking non sequitur.

Do you not realize that a couple hundred million Americans work hard every day, run errands, talk on the phone, etc., then suddenly become calm in the evening before they go to sleep? Some people get home and relax, kick back in a chair, or crack open a beer. Some people with insomnia don't get enough sleep and are calm in the morning as well.

A lot of calm people have been murdered by sudden gunshots.