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dogjones · 20th April 2009, 07:46 AM

Is there an evolutionary reason for the common human reaction to ‘fingernails on a blackboard’ type noise, namely, shudder and freeze? Is there a specific ‘shudder and freeze at high pitched noises’ gene?

I guess my theory is that it’s a relic from when we were rodent-like creatures. It induces a freeze response and perhaps predatory birds detect movement?

I’m also rather interested to know if it’s possible to take isolated bits of human behaviour and come up with reasons for them that are more than speculation.

kedo1981 · 20th April 2009, 08:34 AM

I seem to recall reading this in Omni magazine 20 years ago so take it in context
But an evolutionary biologist (who was very hot looking {20 years ago}) said her research showed that the blackboard thing is hard wired into our brains as a quick response to the sound of a predators claws skittering on a hard surface and coming to eat us up.

dogjones · 20th April 2009, 08:37 AM

That would mean it had seen us already, in which case our shudder and freeze response ain't such a goodun

Ivor the Engineer · 20th April 2009, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by dogjones

That would mean it had seen us already, in which case our shudder and freeze response ain't such a goodun

If it stops you running back to your cave and having the predator eat you and your children, it might be adaptive.

dogjones · 20th April 2009, 10:00 AM

So the response would have to only work as an adult. Do children get the same effect?

TobiasTheViking · 20th April 2009, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by dogjones

So the response would have to only work as an adult. Do children get the same effect?

No, you also have to think about siblings. That is not to say i agree with the hypothesis above.

malaka · 20th April 2009, 10:09 AM

I recall reading about an internet survey regarding the "most annoying sound" a while back.

Found it: http://www.sound101.org/badvibes/

And, specifically related to the OP: http://www.sound101.org/badvibes/hor...id=fingernails

EeneyMinnieMoe · 20th April 2009, 11:51 AM

I've heard the expression "fingernails on a blackboard" my entire life but I've only once actually heard fingernails on a blackboard, in the scene in Jaws where Robert Shaw literally drags his fingernails over a chalkboard.

It was loud but it wasn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Hearing chalk scratch and screech against a blackboard is also unpleasant and loud but it's not poison-to-your-ears.

TobiasTheViking · 20th April 2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

I've heard the expression "fingernails on a blackboard" my entire life but I've only once actually heard fingernails on a blackboard, in the scene in Jaws where Robert Shaw literally drags his fingernails over a chalkboard.

It was loud but it wasn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Hearing chalk scratch and screech against a blackboard is also unpleasant and loud but it's not poison-to-your-ears.

Talk for yourself.. I can't tolerate* nails on a blackboard, chalk on a blackboard, greace pen on a flipover, pencil on paper... Hell, a greace pen on anything.

*By that i mean, I'll literally cover my ears and run from the room. Which I've done once during a course i was teaching(i wasn't at stage that point, it was one of my coworkers, who wrote her email address)... Yes, it did get some strange looks.

ponderingturtle · 20th April 2009, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

I've heard the expression "fingernails on a blackboard" my entire life but I've only once actually heard fingernails on a blackboard, in the scene in Jaws where Robert Shaw literally drags his fingernails over a chalkboard.

It was loud but it wasn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Hearing chalk scratch and screech against a blackboard is also unpleasant and loud but it's not poison-to-your-ears.

I believe the worst sound it a garden rake on a chalkboard.

quixotecoyote · 20th April 2009, 12:30 PM

Rub an inflated balloon.

Although for me, the worse sound ever is someone brushing their teeth.

malaka · 20th April 2009, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Although for me, the worse sound ever is someone brushing their teeth.

I actually came back to this thread to post exactly this. Fingernails on a chalkboard have never really bothered me. But I shudder hearing (or even thinking about) someone brush their teeth. I've only recently (mostly) grown out of it, but for years, I'd have to leave the room if/when I could hear someone brushing their teeth. This included TV commercials...

Uncayimmy · 20th April 2009, 03:27 PM

Monkeys?

Quote:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...rd-so-annoying
Guessing that the whole thing may have had something to do with our monkey ancestors--looked at in the proper light, just about everything has something to do with our monkey ancestors--the researchers compared the waveforms of the scraping noise with those of the warning cries of macaque monkeys. The two sounds, they decided, closely resembled one another. Ergo, Blake writes in Psychology Today, "we speculate that our spine-tingling aversion to sounds like fingernails scraped over a surface may be a vestigial reflex" inherited from our primate forebears.

Dymanic · 20th April 2009, 05:16 PM

I dimly recall something or other about specific frequencies of sound... whatever it was, it's gone now. I hope someone comes up with some kind of decent answer.

I love the sound of chalk on a blackboard. I have a good old fashioned classroom-size blackboard (green, actually) on one wall of my living room. The sound of fingernails on a blackboard is unpleasant to me, but not intensely so. I wonder how many people who find the sound especially unpleasant find that it is easier to tolerate when they themselves are the ones generating it.

As far as "worst sound" goes:

Years ago, I discovered a method for producing sound with a similar quality to fingernails on a blackboard, but with much greater volume: take one of those cheap styrofoam ice chests and rub on it real hard (and kinda slow) with a wet beer bottle. The effect is pretty amazing, actually. Caution: I think I may actually have sustained some hearing loss from doing this.

PbFoot · 20th April 2009, 05:51 PM

For me, it's gotta be the dentists drill. But, only when I'm in the chair. I can use a similar sounding power tool with no trouble.

-PbFoot

tesscaline · 20th April 2009, 05:55 PM

Just reading this thread makes me cringe and want to cover my ears...

That high pitched squeal of nails (or anything for that matter) on a chalk board makes me want to curl up fetal position like and die. Or run screaming, with my hands over my ears. But then, I'm extremely sensitive to sound.

Modified · 20th April 2009, 05:59 PM

Skin rubbing on styrofoam is the worst to my ears. I can't stand to be around anyone who's holding a styrofoam cup. And if it's my own fingers, the sensation through the skin adds to the effect.

tnt666 · 20th April 2009, 11:07 PM

Chalk on blackboard flipping from pull to push is almost worst, but my absolute worst is a fork held vertically for steak cutting which slips sideways, makes me want to puke, just thinking of it makes me cringe!

KellyG · 20th April 2009, 11:10 PM

Ugh reading all of these posts is like willingly subjecting myself to torture.

MG1962 · 21st April 2009, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

I've heard the expression "fingernails on a blackboard" my entire life but I've only once actually heard fingernails on a blackboard, in the scene in Jaws where Robert Shaw literally drags his fingernails over a chalkboard.

It was loud but it wasn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Hearing chalk scratch and screech against a blackboard is also unpleasant and loud but it's not poison-to-your-ears.

I am one who can not stand the sound, yet can sit through that scene in Jaws and not flinch. So obviously th fequency trigger, must not translate ont film stock

In one science magazine or other over the years I can recall reading a case made for it being a primordial warning cry. Again not the actual scaping but the fact the sound hits a particular frequency

El Greco · 21st April 2009, 04:27 AM

I believe a lot of the unpleasantness has to do with knowing where the sound comes from. If you listen to it in the middle of a heavy metal song it will not be cringing (anymore than the song itself, that is).

richardm · 21st April 2009, 06:00 AM

I wonder also how much of it may be a learned reaction.

Anecdote ahoy, but: When I was at school our history teacher screeched the chalk on the blackboard, and perhaps three or four people cringed extravagently. A few days later the same thing happened, and everybody cringed extravagently.

Cainkane1 · 21st April 2009, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by dogjones

Is there an evolutionary reason for the common human reaction to ‘fingernails on a blackboard’ type noise, namely, shudder and freeze? Is there a specific ‘shudder and freeze at high pitched noises’ gene?

I guess my theory is that it’s a relic from when we were rodent-like creatures. It induces a freeze response and perhaps predatory birds detect movement?

I’m also rather interested to know if it’s possible to take isolated bits of human behaviour and come up with reasons for them that are more than speculation.

I read once many years ago that the sound resembles the sound Chimps make when theres a snake in the vicinity.

20th April 2009, 07:46 AM	#1
dogjones Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Bermuda Posts: 1,286	Fingernails on a blackboard Is there an evolutionary reason for the common human reaction to ‘fingernails on a blackboard’ type noise, namely, shudder and freeze? Is there a specific ‘shudder and freeze at high pitched noises’ gene? I guess my theory is that it’s a relic from when we were rodent-like creatures. It induces a freeze response and perhaps predatory birds detect movement? I’m also rather interested to know if it’s possible to take isolated bits of human behaviour and come up with reasons for them that are more than speculation.
	__________________ It's great being ideologically flexible.

20th April 2009, 08:34 AM	#2
kedo1981 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: ohio Posts: 2,103	I seem to recall reading this in Omni magazine 20 years ago so take it in context But an evolutionary biologist (who was very hot looking {20 years ago}) said her research showed that the blackboard thing is hard wired into our brains as a quick response to the sound of a predators claws skittering on a hard surface and coming to eat us up.
	__________________ "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21) I readily admit I don’t know enough to say for sure that there is no God. But I do know enough so say that anyone who claims to know the mind and will of a being such as God is a liar. I have no problem with Jesus, but his fan club sucks!

20th April 2009, 08:37 AM	#3
dogjones Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Bermuda Posts: 1,286	That would mean it had seen us already, in which case our shudder and freeze response ain't such a goodun
	__________________ It's great being ideologically flexible.

20th April 2009, 09:04 AM	#4
Ivor the Engineer Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: South Britain, near the middle Posts: 9,553	Originally Posted by dogjones That would mean it had seen us already, in which case our shudder and freeze response ain't such a goodun If it stops you running back to your cave and having the predator eat you and your children, it might be adaptive.
	__________________ My Blog.

20th April 2009, 10:00 AM	#5
dogjones Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Bermuda Posts: 1,286	So the response would have to only work as an adult. Do children get the same effect?
	__________________ It's great being ideologically flexible.

20th April 2009, 10:08 AM	#6
TobiasTheViking Resident Viking Autist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: With your mother Posts: 6,923	Originally Posted by dogjones So the response would have to only work as an adult. Do children get the same effect? No, you also have to think about siblings. That is not to say i agree with the hypothesis above.
	__________________ He pricked me with his prick that prick - NobbyNobbs Endearingly Obnoxious - Rebecca Watson

20th April 2009, 10:09 AM	#7
malaka Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: columbus Posts: 1,169	I recall reading about an internet survey regarding the "most annoying sound" a while back. Found it: http://www.sound101.org/badvibes/ And, specifically related to the OP: http://www.sound101.org/badvibes/hor...id=fingernails

20th April 2009, 11:51 AM	#8
EeneyMinnieMoe Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,660	I've heard the expression "fingernails on a blackboard" my entire life but I've only once actually heard fingernails on a blackboard, in the scene in Jaws where Robert Shaw literally drags his fingernails over a chalkboard. It was loud but it wasn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Hearing chalk scratch and screech against a blackboard is also unpleasant and loud but it's not poison-to-your-ears.
	__________________ Help Robert out- please visit (Stop) Sylvia Browne ! StopJohnofGod.blogspot.com Last edited by EeneyMinnieMoe; 20th April 2009 at 11:53 AM.

20th April 2009, 12:11 PM	#9
TobiasTheViking Resident Viking Autist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: With your mother Posts: 6,923	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe I've heard the expression "fingernails on a blackboard" my entire life but I've only once actually heard fingernails on a blackboard, in the scene in Jaws where Robert Shaw literally drags his fingernails over a chalkboard. It was loud but it wasn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Hearing chalk scratch and screech against a blackboard is also unpleasant and loud but it's not poison-to-your-ears. Talk for yourself.. I can't tolerate* nails on a blackboard, chalk on a blackboard, greace pen on a flipover, pencil on paper... Hell, a greace pen on anything. *By that i mean, I'll literally cover my ears and run from the room. Which I've done once during a course i was teaching(i wasn't at stage that point, it was one of my coworkers, who wrote her email address)... Yes, it did get some strange looks.
	__________________ He pricked me with his prick that prick - NobbyNobbs Endearingly Obnoxious - Rebecca Watson

20th April 2009, 12:28 PM	#10
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,547	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe I've heard the expression "fingernails on a blackboard" my entire life but I've only once actually heard fingernails on a blackboard, in the scene in Jaws where Robert Shaw literally drags his fingernails over a chalkboard. It was loud but it wasn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Hearing chalk scratch and screech against a blackboard is also unpleasant and loud but it's not poison-to-your-ears. I believe the worst sound it a garden rake on a chalkboard.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

20th April 2009, 12:30 PM	#11
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Rub an inflated balloon. Although for me, the worse sound ever is someone brushing their teeth.
	__________________ If people needed video games to live, a national single payer plan to fund those purchases would be a great idea.

20th April 2009, 01:22 PM	#12
malaka Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: columbus Posts: 1,169	Originally Posted by quixotecoyote Although for me, the worse sound ever is someone brushing their teeth. I actually came back to this thread to post exactly this. Fingernails on a chalkboard have never really bothered me. But I shudder hearing (or even thinking about) someone brush their teeth. I've only recently (mostly) grown out of it, but for years, I'd have to leave the room if/when I could hear someone brushing their teeth. This included TV commercials...

20th April 2009, 03:27 PM	#13
Uncayimmy Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 7,485	Monkeys? Quote: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...rd-so-annoying Guessing that the whole thing may have had something to do with our monkey ancestors--looked at in the proper light, just about everything has something to do with our monkey ancestors--the researchers compared the waveforms of the scraping noise with those of the warning cries of macaque monkeys. The two sounds, they decided, closely resembled one another. Ergo, Blake writes in Psychology Today, "we speculate that our spine-tingling aversion to sounds like fingernails scraped over a surface may be a vestigial reflex" inherited from our primate forebears.
Uncayimmy Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 7,485

20th April 2009, 05:16 PM	#14
Dymanic Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,809	I dimly recall something or other about specific frequencies of sound... whatever it was, it's gone now. I hope someone comes up with some kind of decent answer. I love the sound of chalk on a blackboard. I have a good old fashioned classroom-size blackboard (green, actually) on one wall of my living room. The sound of fingernails on a blackboard is unpleasant to me, but not intensely so. I wonder how many people who find the sound especially unpleasant find that it is easier to tolerate when they themselves are the ones generating it. As far as "worst sound" goes: Years ago, I discovered a method for producing sound with a similar quality to fingernails on a blackboard, but with much greater volume: take one of those cheap styrofoam ice chests and rub on it real hard (and kinda slow) with a wet beer bottle. The effect is pretty amazing, actually. Caution: I think I may actually have sustained some hearing loss from doing this.
Dymanic Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,809

20th April 2009, 05:51 PM	#15
PbFoot Thinker Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 233	For me, it's gotta be the dentists drill. But, only when I'm in the chair. I can use a similar sounding power tool with no trouble. -PbFoot
PbFoot Thinker Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 233

20th April 2009, 05:55 PM	#16
tesscaline Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 4,037	Just reading this thread makes me cringe and want to cover my ears... That high pitched squeal of nails (or anything for that matter) on a chalk board makes me want to curl up fetal position like and die. Or run screaming, with my hands over my ears. But then, I'm extremely sensitive to sound.

20th April 2009, 05:59 PM	#17
Modified Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 4,062	Skin rubbing on styrofoam is the worst to my ears. I can't stand to be around anyone who's holding a styrofoam cup. And if it's my own fingers, the sensation through the skin adds to the effect.

20th April 2009, 11:07 PM	#18
tnt666 Student Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Tegesta-Kepék-Yukon Posts: 26	Chalk on blackboard flipping from pull to push is almost worst, but my absolute worst is a fork held vertically for steak cutting which slips sideways, makes me want to puke, just thinking of it makes me cringe!

20th April 2009, 11:10 PM	#19
KellyG Scholar Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Saint Louis, MO Posts: 89	Ugh reading all of these posts is like willingly subjecting myself to torture.

21st April 2009, 04:14 AM	#20
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe I've heard the expression "fingernails on a blackboard" my entire life but I've only once actually heard fingernails on a blackboard, in the scene in Jaws where Robert Shaw literally drags his fingernails over a chalkboard. It was loud but it wasn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Hearing chalk scratch and screech against a blackboard is also unpleasant and loud but it's not poison-to-your-ears. I am one who can not stand the sound, yet can sit through that scene in Jaws and not flinch. So obviously th fequency trigger, must not translate ont film stock In one science magazine or other over the years I can recall reading a case made for it being a primordial warning cry. Again not the actual scaping but the fact the sound hits a particular frequency

21st April 2009, 04:27 AM	#21
El Greco Summer worshipper Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Παρά θιν'αλός Posts: 14,424	I believe a lot of the unpleasantness has to do with knowing where the sound comes from. If you listen to it in the middle of a heavy metal song it will not be cringing (anymore than the song itself, that is).
	__________________ "Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht "Let it go and come to bed already, El Greco" - MoeFaux

21st April 2009, 06:00 AM	#22
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	I wonder also how much of it may be a learned reaction. Anecdote ahoy, but: When I was at school our history teacher screeched the chalk on the blackboard, and perhaps three or four people cringed extravagently. A few days later the same thing happened, and everybody cringed extravagently.
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

21st April 2009, 07:04 AM	#23
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,237	Originally Posted by dogjones Is there an evolutionary reason for the common human reaction to ‘fingernails on a blackboard’ type noise, namely, shudder and freeze? Is there a specific ‘shudder and freeze at high pitched noises’ gene? I guess my theory is that it’s a relic from when we were rodent-like creatures. It induces a freeze response and perhaps predatory birds detect movement? I’m also rather interested to know if it’s possible to take isolated bits of human behaviour and come up with reasons for them that are more than speculation. I read once many years ago that the sound resembles the sound Chimps make when theres a snake in the vicinity.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.