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JetLeg · 20th April 2009, 10:10 AM

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=89793

Edited by prewitt81:

Post deleted for rule 4 - follow the link to view

Interesting post, isn't it? This is what Christians are supposed to be like. Gandhi said "I like Christ; I don't like Christians", and it seems that this person is different.

Safe-Keeper · 20th April 2009, 10:16 AM

Rapture Ready is a sick, sick site to delve into. Forumites longing for the End Times, posting about how their children cry and long for the end as they can't stand this world anymore... beyond disturbing.

JetLeg · 20th April 2009, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Rapture Ready is a sick, sick site to delve into. Forumites longing for the End Times, posting about how their children cry and long for the end as they can't stand this world anymore... beyond disturbing.

Have you read something besides the title?

supercorgi · 20th April 2009, 10:26 AM

This post is pretty interesting and it leads me to conclude that if this person persists in these types of thoughts, that they will eventually reject that flavor of Christianity. How can Heaven be Heaven if you're there and yet know that all the ones you love are burning in hell? Doesn't seem so heavenly to me. And how could it be heaven, if the essential you has to be remade so that you don't care about these people anymore?

I know a lot of Christians find ways to deal with this cognitive dissonance, but this one seems to be exploring these issues in a little more depth. If Christianity is such a benign, loving religion, why would the acceptance of it lead such people as the poster to such fear and distress? If one of your children didn't believe, I guess you would consider them lost to you. But would you stop loving them? Would you not feel anguish that they are suffering? But there's no anguish in heaven. Does heaven just amount to a brain wipe and reload?

paximperium · 20th April 2009, 10:43 AM

I get first dibs. I get that fundie's Ferrarri!!!

Cainkane1 · 20th April 2009, 10:51 AM

What I find disturbing about this is that the bible seems to imply that people in Heaven can actually communicate with people in Hell. You've been in Heaven one billion years and your family has been in hell for the same length of time what would you tell a loved one burning in said hell?

Cainkane1 · 20th April 2009, 10:54 AM

I was going to post on that site but the administrators have disabled the e-mail.

JoeTheJuggler · 20th April 2009, 11:05 AM

I think it's a post that shows how terribly bad the cognitive processes of this kind of believer can be. Rather than question the set up that leads to such obvious injustice, the guy will persist in his certainty of all this believe and be saved and otherwise be damned to eternal punishment. If anything that certainty might lead to other very strange behavior (not just the "take me instead" approach) where any method of getting people to believe (lying, coercion, enticement, etc.) is justified. I think it's very very similar to the sort of thing that motivated the Inquisition, witch hunts, and conversion at sword point.

Hokulele · 20th April 2009, 11:10 AM

The part of the quote in the OP that strikes me the most is this:

Originally Posted by Rapture Ready Poster

If I were to stop loving my father, mother, brothers, and uncle, all unsaved, I would cease to be me. Then, it would be as if I had died after all, and the real "me" will not enter heaven, but a strange new caricature.

Based on the various descriptions of heaven (or really, any type of afterlife), I have always felt this way. Sure, something may persist, but it ain't "me".

headscratcher4 · 20th April 2009, 11:14 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3BDY3tfs8M

Putty is saved, Elaine is going to hell. Seinfeld. About nails the stupidity of the Rapture Ready POV.

shadron · 20th April 2009, 12:05 PM

How much of an article of faith is the rapture to Christians? I can read in the Nicene Creed (as amended in Constantinople, 381CE), "We Believe...we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come." This much can be derived from Acts and various of the epistles that talk about the second coming, but most of the current belief in the end times seems to be derived exclusively from the Book of Revelation, which was only very slimly favored at the time the canonical Bible was voted on; it could have been left by the wayside easily enough, and then where would the belief be?

For Catholics this would be pretty simple; most don't generally believe in it literally just as they don't believe in the bible generally as literal. For evangelicals, who assert the truth of the Bible literally, then I guess it's going to be the way John described it, 7 of this and 7 of that. From the wikipedia,

Quote:

Protestant founder Martin Luther at first considered Revelation to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it",[6] and placed it in his Antilegomena. John Calvin believed the book to be canonical, yet it was the only New Testament book on which he did not write a commentary.[7]

In the 4th century, Gregory of Nazianzus and other bishops argued against including this book in the New Testament canon, chiefly because of the difficulties of interpreting it and the danger for abuse.[8] Christians in Syria also reject it because of the Montanists' heavy reliance on it.[9] In the 9th century, it was included with the Apocalypse of Peter among "disputed" books in the Stichometry of St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople.[citation needed] In the end it was included in the accepted canon, although it remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

I might note that it is also not used within the catholic readings of gospel and epistles in the mass. It would seem to be at least as fringe a belief as Pentecostalism, for example.

Mr Clingford · 20th April 2009, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by supercorgi

This post is pretty interesting and it leads me to conclude that if this person persists in these types of thoughts, that they will eventually reject that flavor of Christianity. How can Heaven be Heaven if you're there and yet know that all the ones you love are burning in hell? Doesn't seem so heavenly to me. And how could it be heaven, if the essential you has to be remade so that you don't care about these people anymore?

I know a lot of Christians find ways to deal with this cognitive dissonance, but this one seems to be exploring these issues in a little more depth. If Christianity is such a benign, loving religion, why would the acceptance of it lead such people as the poster to such fear and distress? If one of your children didn't believe, I guess you would consider them lost to you. But would you stop loving them? Would you not feel anguish that they are suffering? But there's no anguish in heaven. Does heaven just amount to a brain wipe and reload?

Good points, Supercorgi (even though I am more of a cat person).

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

What I find disturbing about this is that the bible seems to imply that people in Heaven can actually communicate with people in Hell. You've been in Heaven one billion years and your family has been in hell for the same length of time what would you tell a loved one burning in said hell?

If I passed you these marshmallows would you toast them for me?
I presume you are referring to Jesus's story about the rich man and the poor man at his gate. If one takes the story to be literally describing how things are then you are right. On the other hand maybe Jesus was just using a story to make a point.

Mr Clingford · 20th April 2009, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by shadron

How much of an article of faith is the rapture to Christians?

Indeed, it is not an article of faith to the majority of Xtians. However there is a minority, especially in America, who seem to think that the dire Left Behind series is a theological treatise.

Gord_in_Toronto · 20th April 2009, 12:25 PM

I'll tag on to this thread to raise a "concern" I have wrt to flying off to heaven on death or being resurrected when JC returns. Which is it?

supercorgi · 20th April 2009, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Clingford

Good points, Supercorgi (even though I am more of a cat person).

I won't hold it against you. I have (had) 3 cats. I've also had rabbits, ferrets, mice, hamsters, turtles, snakes, and even chickens. I love animals! And not just because some of them taste good.

six7s · 20th April 2009, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

Have you read something besides the title?

I have

Its called Luke, a book in the bible, and it purports to document the words of the christian messiah... words that are out of whack with the quote in the OP

Luke 14:26 (King James Version)

Quote:

²⁶ If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Originally Posted by OP

Originally Posted by RR's KingdomSeeker

Someone told me that we Christians will have our love and worry for the unsaved washed away, so that we will say that these loved ones deserve hell. That troubles me. If I were to stop loving my father, mother, brothers, and uncle, all unsaved, I would cease to be me. Then, it would be as if I had died after all, and the real "me" will not enter heaven, but a strange new caricature.

jimmygun · 21st April 2009, 04:15 AM

I have long posed this question about hell and wish I could get a decent answer but so far nothing.

If you are saved and go to heaven, how can you reconcile that the people you love will go to an everlasting torment?

It is my contention that no one gets to go to heaven. When you die you die and a ringer gets your place in heaven. Some say it is your soul, but then the soul must be a foreign part of you, a part that does not carry the memories of the self.

It is the same as being on a sports team. You try your hardest to make the team, train hard to develop your skills, show up at every practice and contribute to the team, and when the big tournament day finally gets here, the coach says your name and sweater will be given to a professional player friend of his to ensure that the team will win.

If heaven is a place of perfection then it cannot accept you if you are imperfect.

Mr Clingford · 21st April 2009, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by jimmygun

...If heaven is a place of perfection then it cannot accept you if you are imperfect.

This is a reasonable point and one where Protestantism is weak IMO. This becoming perfect (called theosis) is more explored in Catholicism and the Orthodox. The Orthodox contend that some people do indeed become like God in their nature and Catholicism has the idea of Purgatory where one works through one's failings so that one becomes perfect, like God. No-one knows but I find some merit in these non-Prot approaches.

Belz... · 21st April 2009, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=89793

Interesting post, isn't it? This is what Christians are supposed to be like. Gandhi said "I like Christ; I don't like Christians", and it seems that this person is different.

His/her beliefs are just as misguided and dangerous as the others'. So, no.

jimmygun · 22nd April 2009, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Clingford

This is a reasonable point and one where Protestantism is weak IMO. This becoming perfect (called theosis) is more explored in Catholicism and the Orthodox. The Orthodox contend that some people do indeed become like God in their nature and Catholicism has the idea of Purgatory where one works through one's failings so that one becomes perfect, like God. No-one knows but I find some merit in these non-Prot approaches.

It follows that if you have your compassion for those who are suffering for eternity washed away then that compassion must be a fault rather than an attribute.

Kernel Hapablap · 22nd April 2009, 05:48 AM

The truth comes about quite naturally here as it does whenever you attempt to delve into "deeper" religious questions: the harder you look and think about it (rationally), the more you can come to only one conclusion: religion is crap.

Robin · 22nd April 2009, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

Have you read something besides the title?

Did you read the rest of the posts in answer to the one you posted?

Not a single doubt there that an infinitely compassionate, merciful, loving and just God would torture people for eternity for not guessing the right religion.

Your poster would have impressed me more if he/she had shown just a little doubt about this.

Note the respondent who tells KingdomSeeker that his post is a slap in God's face.

Robin · 22nd April 2009, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by jimmygun

I have long posed this question about hell and wish I could get a decent answer but so far nothing.

If you are saved and go to heaven, how can you reconcile that the people you love will go to an everlasting torment?

I have seen no decent answer to this either.

In Problem of Pain C.S Lewis says something like - you get an eternity of reward and they get an eternity of suffering, but don't worry - it is not the same eternity.

D'rok · 22nd April 2009, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=89793

Interesting post, isn't it? This is what Christians are supposed to be like. Gandhi said "I like Christ; I don't like Christians", and it seems that this person is different.

I agree. There is something genuinely compassionate there. Seeds of doubt perhaps?

Others, in that thread...not so much

Quote:

I know it tears me up to think of sisters, a brother, and lifelong friends cast into the lake of fire. Our Father's love for all these same people is profoundly deeper and on levels we cannot comprehend, than ours.

Friends + family + eternal lake of fire = God's love.

Nursefoxfire · 22nd April 2009, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by D'rok

I agree. There is something genuinely compassionate there. Seeds of doubt perhaps?

Others, in that thread...not so much

Speaking of non-compassion:

Quote:

some cold-hearted poster from RR

When she was 91 she moved in with us. After a year with her I started to pray Lord if she is not going to come to You and go to heaven then just take her out...God for give me.

D'rok · 22nd April 2009, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Nursefoxfire

Speaking of non-compassion:

They're such a lovely bunch. From a slightly saner (and definitely harmless) religious fanatic, who got at least this much right:

"But if you know what life is worth.
You would look for yours on earth."

Bob Marley

JetLeg · 22nd April 2009, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by D'rok

I agree. There is something genuinely compassionate there. Seeds of doubt perhaps?

No. The interesting about this post is that he is compassionate without showing a seed of doubt.

And the negative comments do have a point -

He is like a person that is compassionate towards a very unjust punishment that a judge gave to a relative of his, even ready to take the place of the relative in jail/in the electric chair, but is not ready to say that the judge was unjust!!

JetLeg · 22nd April 2009, 07:06 AM

And yes, most of the posters don't share his sentiments. From the same thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by His Bride
Jesus paid the price. You never could. Your compassion for your family members is noble and loving, but it is a slap in the face to God. He has given each of us an opportunity. And those of us who are saved have also been given the commission from the Lord Jesus to preach the Word in season and out. That is what we should be doing. The rest belongs in His hands.

I agree totally with this post. This is where faith comes in. We must pray and trust God and not our own feelings...

Bolding mine.

D'rok · 22nd April 2009, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

No. The interesting about this post is that he is compassionate without showing a seed of doubt.

And the negative comments do have a point -

He is like a person that is compassionate towards a very unjust punishment that a judge gave to a relative of his, even ready to take the place of the relative in jail/in the electric chair, but is not ready to say that the judge was unjust!!

Hard to read much into a single post. What if he/she doesn't get a good answer from the faithful? I think there is still hope for people like this particular poster.

JetLeg · 22nd April 2009, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

Did you read the rest of the posts in answer to the one you posted?

Not a single doubt there that an infinitely compassionate, merciful, loving and just God would torture people for eternity for not guessing the right religion.

Your poster would have impressed me more if he/she had shown just a little doubt about this.

Note the respondent who tells KingdomSeeker that his post is a slap in God's face.

Good point.

Wildy · 22nd April 2009, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

I have seen no decent answer to this either.

In Problem of Pain C.S Lewis says something like - you get an eternity of reward and they get an eternity of suffering, but don't worry - it is not the same eternity.

Is that in the sense that my infinity is bigger then your infinity, or that you are divided up and sent to two different eternities?

JetLeg · 22nd April 2009, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

I have seen no decent answer to this either.

In Problem of Pain C.S Lewis says something like - you get an eternity of reward and they get an eternity of suffering, but don't worry - it is not the same eternity.

Cool.

So one is infinite like the set of all the positive numbers, and the other one is infinite like the set of all the rational numbers?

Rasmus · 22nd April 2009, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

And yes, most of the posters don't share his sentiments. From the same thread.

Bolding mine.

Noble and loving is not what god wants. No surprise there.

technoextreme · 22nd April 2009, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Nursefoxfire

Speaking of non-compassion:

I don't know whether or not you should condemn that person. At that age a person's health can either swing from I don't blame you for wishing the person dead to what are you *********** insane...

Nursefoxfire · 22nd April 2009, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by technoextreme

I don't know whether or not you should condemn that person. At that age a person's health can either swing from I don't blame you for wishing the person dead to what are you *********** insane...

Actually, she was saying that her Grandma was taking so long to be converted, she was tempted to ask God to kill her off. So this "christian" person wanted to either convert her grandma or have a celestial hit taken out on her life (convert or die!).

That has nothing to do with the woman being a possible old crotchety bag.

Rasmus · 22nd April 2009, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Nursefoxfire

Actually, she was saying that her Grandma was taking so long to be converted, she was tempted to ask God to kill her off. So this "christian" person wanted to either convert her grandma or have a celestial hit taken out on her life (convert or die!).

That has nothing to do with the woman being a possible old crotchety bag.

Sadly, it does make sense:

God ought to know if the old woman will ever convert. And if she won't, why not let her go to hell that much sooner?

The irony is that nobody has to reach the age of 90plus for this argument to work. God should be killing babys left and right (like in the old days) so long as they wouldn't have converted later in life anyway.

slingblade · 23rd April 2009, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by shadron

I might note that it is also not used within the catholic readings of gospel and epistles in the mass. It would seem to be at least as fringe a belief as Pentecostalism, for example.

I grew up with the idea though. It was everywhere when I was a kid, in Tulsa. It didn't really seem like a fringe idea to me, and Pentecostal churches have been pretty mainstream and very common wherever I've lived.

I guess that means my perceptions are distorted, having grown up in it, like a cultist's kid...but I sure never thought of Pentecostalism or the Rapture as being on the fringe.

Mr Clingford · 23rd April 2009, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by slingblade

I grew up with the idea though. It was everywhere when I was a kid, in Tulsa. It didn't really seem like a fringe idea to me, and Pentecostal churches have been pretty mainstream and very common wherever I've lived.

I guess that means my perceptions are distorted, having grown up in it, like a cultist's kid...but I sure never thought of Pentecostalism or the Rapture as being on the fringe.

My understanding is that Pentecostalism, if you mean a belief in tongues, healings, words of knowledge etc, is widespread.

You are unlucky, though, to have grown up amongst Rapture believers as that is in the minority.

yodaluver28 · 23rd April 2009, 01:55 AM

Sadly, I never knew that the rapture stuff was fringe until long after I grew up either. That subject gave my brother, sister, and I years of fun and emotionally fulfilling dinner conversation.

Seriously, anybody who believes in that stuff is sick to teach it to young kids. I can't tell you what it meant to me to get an apology from my father for it when I finally told him how it tormented me as a child.

kurious_kathy · 23rd April 2009, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Rapture Ready is a sick, sick site to delve into. Forumites longing for the End Times, posting about how their children cry and long for the end as they can't stand this world anymore... beyond disturbing.

What is truly disturbing is how sin has ruined this world, this is why Christians long for heaven because we know it will be perfect, no more pain, war, suffering or evil of any kind. When you look at this world doesn't it seem obvious that it is perishing? Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says but the end drawing nearer each day. (Christiand know this)

The end of the story is Jesus wins, Satan loses but people either listen to Jesus or they are of their father the devil. It truly is black and white when it all comes down to the question,"Where do you want to spend eternity?" People who deny Christ send themselves to hell. This is what Christians are warning you not to do, you have to make that descision yourself.

As for the Op it's a burden we Christians must bear to try to reach our loved ones for Christ but it takes God doing something supernaturally in each person to make them open to receive him. I say we will never stop praying for the lost as we hope God will save them too. If God can save me I know he can save anyone.

20th April 2009, 10:16 AM	#2
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,179	Rapture Ready is a sick, sick site to delve into. Forumites longing for the End Times, posting about how their children cry and long for the end as they can't stand this world anymore... beyond disturbing.
	__________________

20th April 2009, 10:17 AM	#3
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper Rapture Ready is a sick, sick site to delve into. Forumites longing for the End Times, posting about how their children cry and long for the end as they can't stand this world anymore... beyond disturbing. Have you read something besides the title?
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414

20th April 2009, 10:26 AM	#4
supercorgi Dog Everlasting Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: State of Confusion, Massachusetts, USA Posts: 2,525	This post is pretty interesting and it leads me to conclude that if this person persists in these types of thoughts, that they will eventually reject that flavor of Christianity. How can Heaven be Heaven if you're there and yet know that all the ones you love are burning in hell? Doesn't seem so heavenly to me. And how could it be heaven, if the essential you has to be remade so that you don't care about these people anymore? I know a lot of Christians find ways to deal with this cognitive dissonance, but this one seems to be exploring these issues in a little more depth. If Christianity is such a benign, loving religion, why would the acceptance of it lead such people as the poster to such fear and distress? If one of your children didn't believe, I guess you would consider them lost to you. But would you stop loving them? Would you not feel anguish that they are suffering? But there's no anguish in heaven. Does heaven just amount to a brain wipe and reload?
	__________________

20th April 2009, 10:43 AM	#5
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,727	I get first dibs. I get that fundie's Ferrarri!!!
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

20th April 2009, 10:51 AM	#6
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,239	What I find disturbing about this is that the bible seems to imply that people in Heaven can actually communicate with people in Hell. You've been in Heaven one billion years and your family has been in hell for the same length of time what would you tell a loved one burning in said hell?
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

20th April 2009, 10:54 AM	#7
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,239	I was going to post on that site but the administrators have disabled the e-mail.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

20th April 2009, 11:05 AM	#8
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,173	I think it's a post that shows how terribly bad the cognitive processes of this kind of believer can be. Rather than question the set up that leads to such obvious injustice, the guy will persist in his certainty of all this believe and be saved and otherwise be damned to eternal punishment. If anything that certainty might lead to other very strange behavior (not just the "take me instead" approach) where any method of getting people to believe (lying, coercion, enticement, etc.) is justified. I think it's very very similar to the sort of thing that motivated the Inquisition, witch hunts, and conversion at sword point.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

20th April 2009, 11:10 AM	#9
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,349	The part of the quote in the OP that strikes me the most is this: Originally Posted by Rapture Ready Poster If I were to stop loving my father, mother, brothers, and uncle, all unsaved, I would cease to be me. Then, it would be as if I had died after all, and the real "me" will not enter heaven, but a strange new caricature. Based on the various descriptions of heaven (or really, any type of afterlife), I have always felt this way. Sure, something may persist, but it ain't "me".
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

20th April 2009, 11:14 AM	#10
headscratcher4 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 7,759	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3BDY3tfs8M Putty is saved, Elaine is going to hell. Seinfeld. About nails the stupidity of the Rapture Ready POV.
	__________________ Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. -- Homer Simpson

20th April 2009, 12:05 PM	#11
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,719	How much of an article of faith is the rapture to Christians? I can read in the Nicene Creed (as amended in Constantinople, 381CE), "We Believe...we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come." This much can be derived from Acts and various of the epistles that talk about the second coming, but most of the current belief in the end times seems to be derived exclusively from the Book of Revelation, which was only very slimly favored at the time the canonical Bible was voted on; it could have been left by the wayside easily enough, and then where would the belief be? For Catholics this would be pretty simple; most don't generally believe in it literally just as they don't believe in the bible generally as literal. For evangelicals, who assert the truth of the Bible literally, then I guess it's going to be the way John described it, 7 of this and 7 of that. From the wikipedia, Quote: Protestant founder Martin Luther at first considered Revelation to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it",[6] and placed it in his Antilegomena. John Calvin believed the book to be canonical, yet it was the only New Testament book on which he did not write a commentary.[7] In the 4th century, Gregory of Nazianzus and other bishops argued against including this book in the New Testament canon, chiefly because of the difficulties of interpreting it and the danger for abuse.[8] Christians in Syria also reject it because of the Montanists' heavy reliance on it.[9] In the 9th century, it was included with the Apocalypse of Peter among "disputed" books in the Stichometry of St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople.[citation needed] In the end it was included in the accepted canon, although it remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I might note that it is also not used within the catholic readings of gospel and epistles in the mass. It would seem to be at least as fringe a belief as Pentecostalism, for example.
	Last edited by shadron; 20th April 2009 at 12:06 PM.

20th April 2009, 12:09 PM	#12
Mr Clingford Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: UK Posts: 1,691	Originally Posted by supercorgi This post is pretty interesting and it leads me to conclude that if this person persists in these types of thoughts, that they will eventually reject that flavor of Christianity. How can Heaven be Heaven if you're there and yet know that all the ones you love are burning in hell? Doesn't seem so heavenly to me. And how could it be heaven, if the essential you has to be remade so that you don't care about these people anymore? I know a lot of Christians find ways to deal with this cognitive dissonance, but this one seems to be exploring these issues in a little more depth. If Christianity is such a benign, loving religion, why would the acceptance of it lead such people as the poster to such fear and distress? If one of your children didn't believe, I guess you would consider them lost to you. But would you stop loving them? Would you not feel anguish that they are suffering? But there's no anguish in heaven. Does heaven just amount to a brain wipe and reload? Good points, Supercorgi (even though I am more of a cat person). Originally Posted by Cainkane1 What I find disturbing about this is that the bible seems to imply that people in Heaven can actually communicate with people in Hell. You've been in Heaven one billion years and your family has been in hell for the same length of time what would you tell a loved one burning in said hell? If I passed you these marshmallows would you toast them for me? I presume you are referring to Jesus's story about the rich man and the poor man at his gate. If one takes the story to be literally describing how things are then you are right. On the other hand maybe Jesus was just using a story to make a point.
	__________________ God is my copilot. But we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat him.

20th April 2009, 12:12 PM	#13
Mr Clingford Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: UK Posts: 1,691	Originally Posted by shadron How much of an article of faith is the rapture to Christians? Indeed, it is not an article of faith to the majority of Xtians. However there is a minority, especially in America, who seem to think that the dire Left Behind series is a theological treatise.
	__________________ God is my copilot. But we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat him.

20th April 2009, 12:25 PM	#14
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,424	I'll tag on to this thread to raise a "concern" I have wrt to flying off to heaven on death or being resurrected when JC returns. Which is it?
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

20th April 2009, 12:36 PM	#15
supercorgi Dog Everlasting Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: State of Confusion, Massachusetts, USA Posts: 2,525	Originally Posted by Mr Clingford Good points, Supercorgi (even though I am more of a cat person). I won't hold it against you. I have (had) 3 cats. I've also had rabbits, ferrets, mice, hamsters, turtles, snakes, and even chickens. I love animals! And not just because some of them taste good.
	__________________

20th April 2009, 12:45 PM	#16
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,710	Originally Posted by JetLeg Have you read something besides the title? I have Its called Luke, a book in the bible, and it purports to document the words of the christian messiah... words that are out of whack with the quote in the OP Luke 14:26 (King James Version) Quote: ²⁶ If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Originally Posted by OP Originally Posted by RR's KingdomSeeker Someone told me that we Christians will have our love and worry for the unsaved washed away, so that we will say that these loved ones deserve hell. That troubles me. If I were to stop loving my father, mother, brothers, and uncle, all unsaved, I would cease to be me. Then, it would be as if I had died after all, and the real "me" will not enter heaven, but a strange new caricature.
	__________________ Evolution and the rest of reality fascinates the be-jeebus out of me!

21st April 2009, 04:15 AM	#17
jimmygun Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,589	I have long posed this question about hell and wish I could get a decent answer but so far nothing. If you are saved and go to heaven, how can you reconcile that the people you love will go to an everlasting torment? It is my contention that no one gets to go to heaven. When you die you die and a ringer gets your place in heaven. Some say it is your soul, but then the soul must be a foreign part of you, a part that does not carry the memories of the self. It is the same as being on a sports team. You try your hardest to make the team, train hard to develop your skills, show up at every practice and contribute to the team, and when the big tournament day finally gets here, the coach says your name and sweater will be given to a professional player friend of his to ensure that the team will win. If heaven is a place of perfection then it cannot accept you if you are imperfect.
	__________________ Jimmygun I have been referred to as a non-believer. I prefer the term 'Non-pretender'

21st April 2009, 04:29 AM	#18
Mr Clingford Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: UK Posts: 1,691	Originally Posted by jimmygun ...If heaven is a place of perfection then it cannot accept you if you are imperfect. This is a reasonable point and one where Protestantism is weak IMO. This becoming perfect (called theosis) is more explored in Catholicism and the Orthodox. The Orthodox contend that some people do indeed become like God in their nature and Catholicism has the idea of Purgatory where one works through one's failings so that one becomes perfect, like God. No-one knows but I find some merit in these non-Prot approaches.
	__________________ God is my copilot. But we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat him.

21st April 2009, 04:34 AM	#19
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,984	Originally Posted by JetLeg http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=89793 Interesting post, isn't it? This is what Christians are supposed to be like. Gandhi said "I like Christ; I don't like Christians", and it seems that this person is different. His/her beliefs are just as misguided and dangerous as the others'. So, no.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za. "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey

22nd April 2009, 05:39 AM	#20
jimmygun Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,589	Originally Posted by Mr Clingford This is a reasonable point and one where Protestantism is weak IMO. This becoming perfect (called theosis) is more explored in Catholicism and the Orthodox. The Orthodox contend that some people do indeed become like God in their nature and Catholicism has the idea of Purgatory where one works through one's failings so that one becomes perfect, like God. No-one knows but I find some merit in these non-Prot approaches. It follows that if you have your compassion for those who are suffering for eternity washed away then that compassion must be a fault rather than an attribute.
	__________________ Jimmygun I have been referred to as a non-believer. I prefer the term 'Non-pretender'

22nd April 2009, 05:48 AM	#21
Kernel Hapablap Scholar Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 85	The truth comes about quite naturally here as it does whenever you attempt to delve into "deeper" religious questions: the harder you look and think about it (rationally), the more you can come to only one conclusion: religion is crap.
Kernel Hapablap Scholar Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 85

22nd April 2009, 06:08 AM	#22
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Originally Posted by JetLeg Have you read something besides the title? Did you read the rest of the posts in answer to the one you posted? Not a single doubt there that an infinitely compassionate, merciful, loving and just God would torture people for eternity for not guessing the right religion. Your poster would have impressed me more if he/she had shown just a little doubt about this. Note the respondent who tells KingdomSeeker that his post is a slap in God's face.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

22nd April 2009, 06:13 AM	#23
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Originally Posted by jimmygun I have long posed this question about hell and wish I could get a decent answer but so far nothing. If you are saved and go to heaven, how can you reconcile that the people you love will go to an everlasting torment? I have seen no decent answer to this either. In Problem of Pain C.S Lewis says something like - you get an eternity of reward and they get an eternity of suffering, but don't worry - it is not the same eternity.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

22nd April 2009, 06:43 AM	#24
D'rok Free Barbarian on The Land Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 6,250	Originally Posted by JetLeg http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=89793 Interesting post, isn't it? This is what Christians are supposed to be like. Gandhi said "I like Christ; I don't like Christians", and it seems that this person is different. I agree. There is something genuinely compassionate there. Seeds of doubt perhaps? Others, in that thread...not so much Quote: I know it tears me up to think of sisters, a brother, and lifelong friends cast into the lake of fire. Our Father's love for all these same people is profoundly deeper and on levels we cannot comprehend, than ours. Friends + family + eternal lake of fire = God's love.
	__________________ "War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor "Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC Last edited by D'rok; 22nd April 2009 at 06:44 AM.

22nd April 2009, 06:45 AM	#25
Nursefoxfire Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,197	Originally Posted by D'rok I agree. There is something genuinely compassionate there. Seeds of doubt perhaps? Others, in that thread...not so much Speaking of non-compassion: Quote: some cold-hearted poster from RR When she was 91 she moved in with us. After a year with her I started to pray Lord if she is not going to come to You and go to heaven then just take her out...God for give me.

22nd April 2009, 06:50 AM	#26
D'rok Free Barbarian on The Land Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 6,250	Originally Posted by Nursefoxfire Speaking of non-compassion: They're such a lovely bunch. From a slightly saner (and definitely harmless) religious fanatic, who got at least this much right: "But if you know what life is worth. You would look for yours on earth." Bob Marley
	__________________ "War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor "Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC

22nd April 2009, 07:03 AM	#27
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414	Originally Posted by D'rok I agree. There is something genuinely compassionate there. Seeds of doubt perhaps? No. The interesting about this post is that he is compassionate without showing a seed of doubt. And the negative comments do have a point - He is like a person that is compassionate towards a very unjust punishment that a judge gave to a relative of his, even ready to take the place of the relative in jail/in the electric chair, but is not ready to say that the judge was unjust!!
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414

22nd April 2009, 07:06 AM	#28
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414	And yes, most of the posters don't share his sentiments. From the same thread. Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by His Bride Jesus paid the price. You never could. Your compassion for your family members is noble and loving, but it is a slap in the face to God. He has given each of us an opportunity. And those of us who are saved have also been given the commission from the Lord Jesus to preach the Word in season and out. That is what we should be doing. The rest belongs in His hands. I agree totally with this post. This is where faith comes in. We must pray and trust God and not our own feelings... Bolding mine.
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414

22nd April 2009, 07:08 AM	#29
D'rok Free Barbarian on The Land Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 6,250	Originally Posted by JetLeg No. The interesting about this post is that he is compassionate without showing a seed of doubt. And the negative comments do have a point - He is like a person that is compassionate towards a very unjust punishment that a judge gave to a relative of his, even ready to take the place of the relative in jail/in the electric chair, but is not ready to say that the judge was unjust!! Hard to read much into a single post. What if he/she doesn't get a good answer from the faithful? I think there is still hope for people like this particular poster.
	__________________ "War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor "Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC

22nd April 2009, 07:10 AM	#30
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414	Originally Posted by Robin Did you read the rest of the posts in answer to the one you posted? Not a single doubt there that an infinitely compassionate, merciful, loving and just God would torture people for eternity for not guessing the right religion. Your poster would have impressed me more if he/she had shown just a little doubt about this. Note the respondent who tells KingdomSeeker that his post is a slap in God's face. Good point.
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414

22nd April 2009, 07:33 AM	#31
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field. Posts: 9,955	Originally Posted by Robin I have seen no decent answer to this either. In Problem of Pain C.S Lewis says something like - you get an eternity of reward and they get an eternity of suffering, but don't worry - it is not the same eternity. Is that in the sense that my infinity is bigger then your infinity, or that you are divided up and sent to two different eternities?
	__________________ Latest Blog Posts:Atheism+ More Atheism+ stuff

22nd April 2009, 07:39 AM	#32
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414	Originally Posted by Robin I have seen no decent answer to this either. In Problem of Pain C.S Lewis says something like - you get an eternity of reward and they get an eternity of suffering, but don't worry - it is not the same eternity. Cool. So one is infinite like the set of all the positive numbers, and the other one is infinite like the set of all the rational numbers?
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414

22nd April 2009, 07:44 AM	#33
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,139	Originally Posted by JetLeg And yes, most of the posters don't share his sentiments. From the same thread. Bolding mine. Noble and loving is not what god wants. No surprise there.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,139	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

22nd April 2009, 11:46 AM	#34
technoextreme Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,786	Originally Posted by Nursefoxfire Speaking of non-compassion: I don't know whether or not you should condemn that person. At that age a person's health can either swing from I don't blame you for wishing the person dead to what are you *********** insane...
	__________________ It's amazing how many of these "paranormal" icons seem to merge together. There always seem to be theories about how they link together in some way. I'm sure someone has a very good explanation as to how Bigfoot killed JFK to help cover Roswell.-Mark Mekes This isn't rocket surgery.-Bill Nye Last edited by technoextreme; 22nd April 2009 at 11:57 AM.

22nd April 2009, 12:05 PM	#35
Nursefoxfire Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,197	Originally Posted by technoextreme I don't know whether or not you should condemn that person. At that age a person's health can either swing from I don't blame you for wishing the person dead to what are you *********** insane... Actually, she was saying that her Grandma was taking so long to be converted, she was tempted to ask God to kill her off. So this "christian" person wanted to either convert her grandma or have a celestial hit taken out on her life (convert or die!). That has nothing to do with the woman being a possible old crotchety bag.

22nd April 2009, 11:13 PM	#36
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,139	Originally Posted by Nursefoxfire Actually, she was saying that her Grandma was taking so long to be converted, she was tempted to ask God to kill her off. So this "christian" person wanted to either convert her grandma or have a celestial hit taken out on her life (convert or die!). That has nothing to do with the woman being a possible old crotchety bag. Sadly, it does make sense: God ought to know if the old woman will ever convert. And if she won't, why not let her go to hell that much sooner? The irony is that nobody has to reach the age of 90plus for this argument to work. God should be killing babys left and right (like in the old days) so long as they wouldn't have converted later in life anyway.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,139	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg