Why did Jesus throw a tantrum at the fig tree?

Safe-Keeper · 30th April 2009, 10:17 AM

OK, so in Mark 11, Jesus comes upon a fig tree, realizes the tree has no fruit as it's not fig season, and curses the tree so that it instantly withers. Now, most of the other stuff I read in the Bible, I understand, but this one is just beyond me.

I gather the point may be that Jesus is mad at people who don't believe because there's no evidence. The 'season for figs' may be the time in which actual evidence for Him is revealed.

Given that 'fruits' is used often as an expression in the Bible, it could also mean that Christ is mad at people who only do good when others do as well and it's fashionable to do so - when it's "season for good fruits".

Am I way off here?

Source.

Professor Yaffle · 30th April 2009, 10:19 AM

Cos he was hungry.

Marquis de Carabas · 30th April 2009, 10:20 AM

You're overthinking it. Really, if your first presents are gold and expensive spices, it's no surprise if you grow up to be a spoilt brat with entitlement issues.

A Christian Sceptic · 30th April 2009, 10:24 AM

Here's a place to start courtesy of Wikipedia:

Quote:

The incident with the fig tree occurs in Mark 11 immediately before and then after the incident at the Temple. The cursing of the tree displays Jesus' power and the power of prayer coupled with full belief in God. Mark, placing the fig tree before and after the incident at the Temple, may be using the fig tree as a metaphor, as Jesus himself might have, for what he sees as the barrenness of the priests (technically, the Temple priests were the Sadducees) and the withering of their teaching and authority due to their lack of true faith. As Jesus hoped to find fruit on the fig tree, Jesus hoped to find "fruit", the fruit of true worship of God, at the Temple. The Temple, Herod's Temple, like the fig tree, is cursed. See also Jeremiah 8:13.

Simon Peter observes that the tree withered. Jesus responds that anyone can make a mountain throw itself in the sea, if he truly believes his command will be obeyed. A similar statement is also mentioned in the much earlier Pauline Epistles, where the First Epistle to the Corinthians argues that faith can move mountains.

In the Synoptic Gospels, the fig tree is revisited as a parable within the Olivet discourse. Jesus says that when the fig tree puts forth leaves one can tell that summer has arrived. Jesus continues that when this has happened the kingdom of God will be at hand. This is almost always interpreted metaphorically, and is usually considered in contrast to the earlier tree withering.

Most modern Christians interpret the parable to suggest that the tree's withering meant the teachings of the Sadducees and Pharisees were far from the truth, and that this poverty of teaching was the source of Jesus' anger at the lack of fruit. At some point the fruits of Christianity will come forth and then an eschatological kingdom of God arrive

Safe-Keeper · 30th April 2009, 10:25 AM

Thanks a lot, really interesting. Never thought of checking the Wiki... I tend to use it for more peaceful stuff.

Holler Hoojer · 30th April 2009, 11:03 AM

Lemme see. Jesus was a good Jewish boy. Israel was traditionally viewed as the first fruit of the fig tree. Jesus was pissed off at Israel's lack of obedience to God. Mmm?

Whiplash · 30th April 2009, 12:02 PM

Why is Obi Wan cursing that lego tree? Or is that Qui-Gon?

Safe-Keeper · 30th April 2009, 01:35 PM

His father is Gandalf the White, apparently.

TraneWreck · 30th April 2009, 01:42 PM

I dunno, Jesus was kind of a dick sometimes. One of the gospels has this story where jesus banishes a demon, or group of demons called "Legion," from a man and somehow directs the demons to a herd of pigs.

The pigs go nuts and drown themselves.

Think about the poor dude in the country of the Gadarenes: he's just minding his own business and some guy in a robe comes along and kills all of his pigs.

I would be pissed. And given Jesus' infinite powers, why did he have to kill that guy's pigs. Couldn't he have done something else with the demons?

I think the poor fig tree is in a the same position and the guy with the pigs.

Hokulele · 30th April 2009, 01:43 PM

What would a bunch of Jews want with pigs? Drown 'em all!

The Atheist · 30th April 2009, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

OK, so in Mark 11, Jesus comes upon a fig tree, realizes the tree has no fruit as it's not fig season, and curses the tree so that it instantly withers.

Clearly an analogy for women.

If a woman is not in season when you want her to be, she should be killed.

CrikeyBobs · 30th April 2009, 02:41 PM

I love how that tilt-shift technique makes the image look like a miniature. Neato.

Pardalis · 30th April 2009, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by CrikeyBobs

I love how that tilt-shift technique makes the image look like a miniature. Neato.

Aren't they already miniatures, and just shot in macro?

Greediguts · 30th April 2009, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

I dunno, Jesus was kind of a dick sometimes. One of the gospels has this story where jesus banishes a demon, or group of demons called "Legion," from a man and somehow directs the demons to a herd of pigs.

The pigs go nuts and drown themselves.

Think about the poor dude in the country of the Gadarenes: he's just minding his own business and some guy in a robe comes along and kills all of his pigs.

I would be pissed. And given Jesus' infinite powers, why did he have to kill that guy's pigs. Couldn't he have done something else with the demons?

I think the poor fig tree is in a the same position and the guy with the pigs.

Of course, the writer could have been comparing a herd of swine to another type of "legion". The Roman legions would not have been particularly well-liked...

tsig · 30th April 2009, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

I dunno, Jesus was kind of a dick sometimes. One of the gospels has this story where jesus banishes a demon, or group of demons called "Legion," from a man and somehow directs the demons to a herd of pigs.

The pigs go nuts and drown themselves.

Think about the poor dude in the country of the Gadarenes: he's just minding his own business and some guy in a robe comes along and kills all of his pigs.

I would be pissed. And given Jesus' infinite powers, why did he have to kill that guy's pigs. Couldn't he have done something else with the demons?

I think the poor fig tree is in a the same position and the guy with the pigs.

God was endorsing B-Bque. Grill the pigs over the figs.

Robert Oz · 30th April 2009, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Jesus comes upon a fig tree, realizes the tree has no fruit as it's not fig season, and curses the tree so that it instantly withers. Now, most of the other stuff I read in the Bible, I understand, but this one is just beyond me.

Jesus practised conjuring as a side-hobby, but he wasn't very good at it.

Jesus saw a dry, withered fig tree off in the distance and quickly yelled out, "I curse you, fig tree! I curse you good!"

All the disciples turned around and were amazed by the dry, withered fig tree. Simon Peter saw it early though and tried to ruin the trick: "************! That tree was already dry and withered."

But Jesus had a stooge in Judas. "No, no it wasn't. I saw it. It was lush and green. Christ, you're a bad***!"

Jesus high-fived Judas and whispered "Heckler" under his breath to Simon Peter.

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

One of the gospels has this story where jesus banishes a demon, or group of demons called "Legion," from a man and somehow directs the demons to a herd of pigs.

The pigs go nuts and drown themselves.

Jesus was desperately trying to calm down a looney tune. He had his pose right (akin to Darth Vader strangling that military officer on the Death Star), but the guy just kept jumping around and screaming obscenities.

The looney tune spooked a bunch of pigs that proceeded to run of a cliff to escape the looney.

Jesus turned around to his disciples and said, "Did you see that? Did you see what I did? I totally sent the demons from that guy into the pigs. Spread that one around. That's a good one. Damn, I'm good!"

kmortis · 30th April 2009, 03:25 PM

Kreeist! Not this again. It was well established that Jesus hated trees. HIs father was a carpenter (aka one who tortures trees until they bend to his will), he cursed the tree and he was killed on a tree. Duh!

JoeTheJuggler · 30th April 2009, 03:58 PM

Lesson of the fig tree story: Jesus has supernatural connections.

I think it's a just-so story to explain a barren fig tree known in the region about the time the synoptics were written down.

It's on par with the legend of Buddha being born able to speak.

Kthulhut Fhtagn · 30th April 2009, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

What would a bunch of Jews want with pigs? Drown 'em all!

Are you saying we Jews aren't responsible enough to raise pigs?![/feigned outrage]

TraneWreck · 30th April 2009, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Greediguts

Of course, the writer could have been comparing a herd of swine to another type of "legion". The Roman legions would not have been particularly well-liked...

That's an impressive bit of word association, but the comparison fails completely if you read the actual story. I could say your investigative skills make you a real dick, but then I'd be making the same mistake...

Greediguts · 30th April 2009, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

That's an impressive bit of word association, but the comparison fails completely if you read the actual story. I could say your investigative skills make you a real dick, but then I'd be making the same mistake...

Nice!

The actual theory comes from John Dominic Crossan. Crossan looks at Jesus as a social reformer. By looking at Jesus' teachings as trying to invoke political changes at that time, instead of worrying about everyone's personal salvation in the future, you see his message directed at society as a whole instead of the individual. Crossan knows the historical Jesus couldn't cast out demons, but if the story is a metaphor, then it fits with his theory. The demons being named "Legion" refer to the occupying Romans. The man's body represents their society that the Romans forced their way into. Jesus is advocating the removal of Roman control and oppression. He casts the demons into swine, which Jews considered unclean or not pure. Not just a veiled swipe at the Romans, but another reminder for the Jewish people to not associate with the Romans or to adopt their customs.

Again, it is a theory. I don't always agree with Crossan but I do respect his opinions. He has significantly contributed to overall scholarly body of work regarding the historical Jesus and early Christianity.

Of course, he could just be a dick too...

six7s · 30th April 2009, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

OK, so in Mark 11, Jesus comes upon a fig tree, realizes the tree has no fruit as it's not fig season, and curses the tree so that it instantly withers. Now, most of the other stuff I read in the Bible, I understand, but this one is just beyond me.

For the easiest and simplest answers, see http://www.godhatesfigs.com

Typicallucas · 30th April 2009, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by six7s

For the easiest and simplest answers, see http://www.godhatesfigs.com

Oh, snap!

six7s · 30th April 2009, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Typicallucas

Oh, snap!

Perhaps unsurprisingly, we're not the first to recognise that pun

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com What the Bible says about Figs

Quote:

(God hates them.)

Psalms 105:33

He smote ... their fig trees.

Jeremiah 24:2-3

The other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

Jeremiah 29:17-18

Thus sayeth the Lord of hosts, Behold, I will ... make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

Hosea 2:12

I will destroy her vines and her fig trees.

Matthew 21:19

And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Mark 11:13-14, 20

And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. ... And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

(Or maybe he doesn't)

2 Kings 20:7

And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.

TraneWreck · 30th April 2009, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Greediguts

Nice!

The actual theory comes from John Dominic Crossan. Crossan looks at Jesus as a social reformer. By looking at Jesus' teachings as trying to invoke political changes at that time, instead of worrying about everyone's personal salvation in the future, you see his message directed at society as a whole instead of the individual. Crossan knows the historical Jesus couldn't cast out demons, but if the story is a metaphor, then it fits with his theory. The demons being named "Legion" refer to the occupying Romans. The man's body represents their society that the Romans forced their way into. Jesus is advocating the removal of Roman control and oppression. He casts the demons into swine, which Jews considered unclean or not pure. Not just a veiled swipe at the Romans, but another reminder for the Jewish people to not associate with the Romans or to adopt their customs.

Again, it is a theory. I don't always agree with Crossan but I do respect his opinions. He has significantly contributed to overall scholarly body of work regarding the historical Jesus and early Christianity.

Of course, he could just be a dick too...

Haha, I'm glad you saw the humor in my statement, it easily could have been taken otherwise.

That interpretation is a huge stretch. The story is sparse with very little detail, there's nothing to indicate the writers meant anything other than a demon-possessed man and a group of pigs.

On top of that, Luke and Mark use the name "Legion," but Matthew doesn't (Matthew also has 2 possessed men). If it were really meant to be allegory based on the Roman Legions, the name would be sine qua non. Without the name "Legion" you could easily substitute the corrupt teachings of the Pharisees, or any bugaboo you desire, as the target of the swine slander.

It's far more likely that all the talk about demon banishing (which makes up a significant percentage of Jesus and his follower's work) is nothing more than unsophisticated superstition.

Doctor Evil · 30th April 2009, 10:45 PM

I do not like figs. So it all seems fairly reasonable to me, tough I never got mad at a tree.

Darth Rotor · 2nd May 2009, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Holler Hoojer

Lemme see. Jesus was a good Jewish boy.

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

I dunno, Jesus was kind of a dick sometimes.

A trimmed dick at that.

Originally Posted by Hokulele

What would a bunch of Jews want with pigs?

Not eating.

(I was having a Zen moment there, sue me.

)

DR

Safe-Keeper · 3rd May 2009, 03:40 AM

Quote:

I do not like figs. So it all seems fairly reasonable to me, tough I never got mad at a tree.

You don't like figs, so it makes sense to you to be provoked by a tree not bearing figs? What?

chillzero · 3rd May 2009, 04:25 AM

So the point was that the power of prayer and belief in god are supreme, and enable you to accomplish anything? Funny how that doesn't work for any believers since then, really.

PrincessIneffabelle · 3rd May 2009, 08:39 AM

The tree totally had it coming! Stupid fig trees, always acting like they can get away with anything.

"Oh, look, it's the bleedin' Messiah

. Well, I'm not gonna bend over and pop out some fruit for that nutter!"

quarky · 3rd May 2009, 08:49 AM

There's a rumor that Jesus was crucified on a dogwood cross, and god cursed the dogwood tree so that it would never grow big enough to make a cross again.

(He forgot about laminates. Now we could make a good cross out of bamboo if we had to.)

boloboffin · 4th May 2009, 08:29 AM

If a man goes onto his property, flips out over a fig tree, and saws it down, do you try to question why? It's not producing to suit him so he takes it out. No great mystery.

So, too, Jesus approaching the Temple -- in all its glory, it was producing nothing to suit him. So Jesus was demonstrating his utter right to take the place out. The fig tree wasn't in season yet? Well, Herod's Temple was always a-building, and it never seemed to be the season to stop the cooperation with the Romans and make the temple holy again.

And what sweeter part of God's plan than to have the Romans themselves destroy that which God hated?

aggle-rithm · 4th May 2009, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Oz

Jesus was desperately trying to calm down a looney tune. He had his pose right (akin to Darth Vader strangling that military officer on the Death Star), but the guy just kept jumping around and screaming obscenities.

The looney tune spooked a bunch of pigs that proceeded to run of a cliff to escape the looney.

Jesus turned around to his disciples and said, "Did you see that? Did you see what I did? I totally sent the demons from that guy into the pigs. Spread that one around. That's a good one. Damn, I'm good!"

The beauty of it is, if anyone points out that the guy is still a raving looney, Jesus just has to say: "Of course, he's still crazy. He just doesn't have the demons anymore."

Beerina · 4th May 2009, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

What would a bunch of Jews want with pigs? Drown 'em all!

I assume pigs were off limits for eating already by that point. So why would one have a herd of pigs to begin with?

In any case, I get the feeling these were like the agents taking over the wetware of coppertops. Which fits in with the Neo-as-Jesus theory quite well, now that I think about it. It certainly explains why "Jesus", "John the Baptist", "Mary the Hot Former Hooker In Love With Jesus", and so on, didn't care about slaughtering tons of otherwise innocent coppertops. Possessed by "the Devil"? Fair game for a peasant skeetshoot.

TraneWreck · 4th May 2009, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

I assume pigs were off limits for eating already by that point. So why would one have a herd of pigs to begin with?

Well, the pig herder was from the country of the Gadarenes, so he wasn't necessarily Jewish.

This makes the story even stranger: a wandering Jew from a neighboring country shows up and demolishes a person's livlihood for no apparant reason.

aggle-rithm · 4th May 2009, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

Well, the pig herder was from the country of the Gadarenes, so he wasn't necessarily Jewish.

This makes the story even stranger: a wandering Jew from a neighboring country shows up and demolishes a person's livlihood for no apparant reason.

Pig herder: My pigs! What have you done with my pigs!

Jesus: Oh, you don't want those pigs. They're full of demons.

Pig herder: Demons...? But they seemed fine this...

Jesus: Oh, and you better turn over your sheep as well. They're high in sodium.

six7s · 4th May 2009, 01:50 PM

Pig herder: In contrast with what? You, high on THC?

Jesus: Don't be so heavy, man!

David Wong · 4th May 2009, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Given that 'fruits' is used often as an expression in the Bible, it could also mean that Christ is mad at people who only do good when others do as well and it's fashionable to do so - when it's "season for good fruits".

Not to derail this thread with, you know, actual discussion of the OP, but that's what I've always taken the story to mean. Seems to fit in the context of other parables that relay the same message (that Jesus was all about what you actually did, rather than what you said or what ceremony you performed).

The actual responses in this thread raise another more important point, which is how destructive the dismissiveness that comes with Atheism is. It's like it's part of the Atheist creed not just to disbelieve other religions, but to actively squash any curiosity that may arise as to what people believe and why.

It's one thing to refuse to believe in the supernatural; that's rational. It's another to dismiss all subjects related to the human tradition of religion as unworthy of all but the most dismissive and sarcastic discussion. That is not rational. That's how a fundamentalist acts.

six7s · 4th May 2009, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by David Wong

Not to derail this thread with, you know, actual discussion of the OP, but that's what I've always taken the story to mean. Seems to fit in the context of other parables that relay the same message (that Jesus was all about what you actually did, rather than what you said or what ceremony you performed).

The actual responses in this thread raise another more important point, which is how destructive the dismissiveness that comes with Atheism is. It's like it's part of the Atheist creed not just to disbelieve other religions, but to actively squash any curiosity that may arise as to what people believe and why.

It's one thing to refuse to believe in the supernatural; that's rational. It's another to dismiss all subjects related to the human tradition of religion as unworthy of all but the most dismissive and sarcastic discussion. That is not rational. That's how a fundamentalist acts.

Ahhh... so you DO want to derail this thread with strawmen arguments and blatant lies...

Tip: DON'T

TimCallahan · 6th May 2009, 09:32 AM

Mark's fig tree story was an embarrassment to both Matthew and Luke, who based their narratives on Mark only altering certain aspects here and there. As to the fig tree episode, Matthew altered it as follows. Mark has Jesus curse a fig tree for not bearing figs out of season. The next day he and the 12 come by the same spot, and the desciples see that the fig tree has withered and died. Then they remember his words and are awed. Matthew leaves out the bit about it not being the season for figs and has the tree wither and die immediately following the curse, giving the miracle more punch. Luke leaves the incident out altogether, merely making a statement elsewhere that barren trees are cut down nd thrown into the fire, obviously a reference to barren human lives.

I think the most logical explanation for Jesus mark putting in this odd tale of Jesus throwing a snit because a tree wasn't bearing fruit out of season is to be found in Dennis MacDonald's book, "The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark." This author points out that "mimesis" the basing of one's work on the the great works of the past, was highly lauded in Roman times, and that Homer was the author most mimiced. Macdonald points out that three oddities found in Mark can be explained by reference back to Homer. Cursing the fig tree is one of the three.

MacDonald points out that in the Odyssey the gardens surrounding the palace of the king of Phaeacea contain trees miraculously bearing fruit out of season. In Mark the cursing of the fig tree is sandwiched between Jesus's initial visit to the temple complex on one day and his driving the money changers out of the temple on the next. Refering back to the Odyssey, which most of his audience would have understood, Mark was saying that the temple should bear fruit, i.e. be effective as God's instrument, at all times, not intermittently. The fig tree, bearing fruit only during its season, is symbolic of the failure of the temple and its authorities (in the eyes of Jesus at least). The fig (temple) should bear fruit in all seasons, lke the trees in the garden of the king of Phaeacea.

MacDonald may or may not be correct in his assessment (though I think he's right on), but his explanation is the only one I've heard that makes sense out of Mark going out of his way to insert a story - which still embarrasses Christian ministers to this day - of Jesus throwing a snit and cursing a non-sentient life form for not producing fruit out of season.

30th April 2009, 10:17 AM	#1
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,111	Why did Jesus throw a tantrum at the fig tree? OK, so in Mark 11, Jesus comes upon a fig tree, realizes the tree has no fruit as it's not fig season, and curses the tree so that it instantly withers. Now, most of the other stuff I read in the Bible, I understand, but this one is just beyond me. I gather the point may be that Jesus is mad at people who don't believe because there's no evidence. The 'season for figs' may be the time in which actual evidence for Him is revealed. Given that 'fruits' is used often as an expression in the Bible, it could also mean that Christ is mad at people who only do good when others do as well and it's fashionable to do so - when it's "season for good fruits". Am I way off here? Source.

30th April 2009, 10:19 AM	#2
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,341	Cos he was hungry.
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat

30th April 2009, 10:20 AM	#3
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	You're overthinking it. Really, if your first presents are gold and expensive spices, it's no surprise if you grow up to be a spoilt brat with entitlement issues.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

30th April 2009, 10:24 AM	#4
A Christian Sceptic Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I'm a male! Posts: 2,288	Here's a place to start courtesy of Wikipedia: Quote: The incident with the fig tree occurs in Mark 11 immediately before and then after the incident at the Temple. The cursing of the tree displays Jesus' power and the power of prayer coupled with full belief in God. Mark, placing the fig tree before and after the incident at the Temple, may be using the fig tree as a metaphor, as Jesus himself might have, for what he sees as the barrenness of the priests (technically, the Temple priests were the Sadducees) and the withering of their teaching and authority due to their lack of true faith. As Jesus hoped to find fruit on the fig tree, Jesus hoped to find "fruit", the fruit of true worship of God, at the Temple. The Temple, Herod's Temple, like the fig tree, is cursed. See also Jeremiah 8:13. Simon Peter observes that the tree withered. Jesus responds that anyone can make a mountain throw itself in the sea, if he truly believes his command will be obeyed. A similar statement is also mentioned in the much earlier Pauline Epistles, where the First Epistle to the Corinthians argues that faith can move mountains. In the Synoptic Gospels, the fig tree is revisited as a parable within the Olivet discourse. Jesus says that when the fig tree puts forth leaves one can tell that summer has arrived. Jesus continues that when this has happened the kingdom of God will be at hand. This is almost always interpreted metaphorically, and is usually considered in contrast to the earlier tree withering. Most modern Christians interpret the parable to suggest that the tree's withering meant the teachings of the Sadducees and Pharisees were far from the truth, and that this poverty of teaching was the source of Jesus' anger at the lack of fruit. At some point the fruits of Christianity will come forth and then an eschatological kingdom of God arrive
	__________________ How's it hanging?

30th April 2009, 12:02 PM	#7
Whiplash Acting like a maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Shipwrecked and Comatose Posts: 5,389	Why is Obi Wan cursing that lego tree? Or is that Qui-Gon?
	__________________ Ken Buddha.. a smile, two bangs, and a religion. On the ricochet.. it's gonna hit you. It's always funny until someone gets hurt.

30th April 2009, 10:25 AM	#5
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,111	Thanks a lot, really interesting. Never thought of checking the Wiki... I tend to use it for more peaceful stuff.

30th April 2009, 11:03 AM	#6
Holler Hoojer Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 422	Lemme see. Jesus was a good Jewish boy. Israel was traditionally viewed as the first fruit of the fig tree. Jesus was pissed off at Israel's lack of obedience to God. Mmm?

30th April 2009, 01:35 PM	#8
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,111	His father is Gandalf the White, apparently.

30th April 2009, 01:42 PM	#9
TraneWreck Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 6,414	I dunno, Jesus was kind of a dick sometimes. One of the gospels has this story where jesus banishes a demon, or group of demons called "Legion," from a man and somehow directs the demons to a herd of pigs. The pigs go nuts and drown themselves. Think about the poor dude in the country of the Gadarenes: he's just minding his own business and some guy in a robe comes along and kills all of his pigs. I would be pissed. And given Jesus' infinite powers, why did he have to kill that guy's pigs. Couldn't he have done something else with the demons? I think the poor fig tree is in a the same position and the guy with the pigs.

30th April 2009, 01:43 PM	#10
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,267	What would a bunch of Jews want with pigs? Drown 'em all!
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

30th April 2009, 02:19 PM	#11
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper OK, so in Mark 11, Jesus comes upon a fig tree, realizes the tree has no fruit as it's not fig season, and curses the tree so that it instantly withers. Clearly an analogy for women. If a woman is not in season when you want her to be, she should be killed.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

30th April 2009, 02:41 PM	#12
CrikeyBobs Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London Posts: 421	I love how that tilt-shift technique makes the image look like a miniature. Neato.

30th April 2009, 03:00 PM	#13
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by CrikeyBobs I love how that tilt-shift technique makes the image look like a miniature. Neato. Aren't they already miniatures, and just shot in macro?

30th April 2009, 03:05 PM	#14
Greediguts Atheist for Jesus Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 633	Originally Posted by TraneWreck I dunno, Jesus was kind of a dick sometimes. One of the gospels has this story where jesus banishes a demon, or group of demons called "Legion," from a man and somehow directs the demons to a herd of pigs. The pigs go nuts and drown themselves. Think about the poor dude in the country of the Gadarenes: he's just minding his own business and some guy in a robe comes along and kills all of his pigs. I would be pissed. And given Jesus' infinite powers, why did he have to kill that guy's pigs. Couldn't he have done something else with the demons? I think the poor fig tree is in a the same position and the guy with the pigs. Of course, the writer could have been comparing a herd of swine to another type of "legion". The Roman legions would not have been particularly well-liked...

30th April 2009, 03:09 PM	#15
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,763	Originally Posted by TraneWreck I dunno, Jesus was kind of a dick sometimes. One of the gospels has this story where jesus banishes a demon, or group of demons called "Legion," from a man and somehow directs the demons to a herd of pigs. The pigs go nuts and drown themselves. Think about the poor dude in the country of the Gadarenes: he's just minding his own business and some guy in a robe comes along and kills all of his pigs. I would be pissed. And given Jesus' infinite powers, why did he have to kill that guy's pigs. Couldn't he have done something else with the demons? I think the poor fig tree is in a the same position and the guy with the pigs. God was endorsing B-Bque. Grill the pigs over the figs.

30th April 2009, 03:20 PM	#16
Robert Oz Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,435	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper Jesus comes upon a fig tree, realizes the tree has no fruit as it's not fig season, and curses the tree so that it instantly withers. Now, most of the other stuff I read in the Bible, I understand, but this one is just beyond me. Jesus practised conjuring as a side-hobby, but he wasn't very good at it. Jesus saw a dry, withered fig tree off in the distance and quickly yelled out, "I curse you, fig tree! I curse you good!" All the disciples turned around and were amazed by the dry, withered fig tree. Simon Peter saw it early though and tried to ruin the trick: "**********! That tree was already dry and withered." But Jesus had a stooge in Judas. "No, no it wasn't. I saw it. It was lush and green. Christ, you're a bad!" Jesus high-fived Judas and whispered "Heckler" under his breath to Simon Peter. Originally Posted by TraneWreck* One of the gospels has this story where jesus banishes a demon, or group of demons called "Legion," from a man and somehow directs the demons to a herd of pigs. The pigs go nuts and drown themselves. Jesus was desperately trying to calm down a looney tune. He had his pose right (akin to Darth Vader strangling that military officer on the Death Star), but the guy just kept jumping around and screaming obscenities. The looney tune spooked a bunch of pigs that proceeded to run of a cliff to escape the looney. Jesus turned around to his disciples and said, "Did you see that? Did you see what I did? I totally sent the demons from that guy into the pigs. Spread that one around. That's a good one. Damn, I'm good!"
	__________________ "I'll be back before you can say Antidisestablishmentarianism." - Blackadder

30th April 2009, 03:25 PM	#17
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,594	Kreeist! Not this again. It was well established that Jesus hated trees. HIs father was a carpenter (aka one who tortures trees until they bend to his will), he cursed the tree and he was killed on a tree. Duh!
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

30th April 2009, 03:58 PM	#18
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,749	Lesson of the fig tree story: Jesus has supernatural connections. I think it's a just-so story to explain a barren fig tree known in the region about the time the synoptics were written down. It's on par with the legend of Buddha being born able to speak.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

30th April 2009, 04:12 PM	#19
Kthulhut Fhtagn Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Somewhere in time and space... Posts: 1,939	Originally Posted by Hokulele What would a bunch of Jews want with pigs? Drown 'em all! Are you saying we Jews aren't responsible enough to raise pigs?![/feigned outrage]
	__________________ -- Everything starts somewhere, although many physicists disagree. There is the constant desire to find out where - where is the point where it all began...The philosopher Didactylos suggested an alternative hypothesis: 'things just happen, what the hell'.

30th April 2009, 04:29 PM	#20
TraneWreck Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 6,414	Originally Posted by Greediguts Of course, the writer could have been comparing a herd of swine to another type of "legion". The Roman legions would not have been particularly well-liked... That's an impressive bit of word association, but the comparison fails completely if you read the actual story. I could say your investigative skills make you a real dick, but then I'd be making the same mistake...

30th April 2009, 05:24 PM	#21
Greediguts Atheist for Jesus Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 633	Originally Posted by TraneWreck That's an impressive bit of word association, but the comparison fails completely if you read the actual story. I could say your investigative skills make you a real dick, but then I'd be making the same mistake... Nice! The actual theory comes from John Dominic Crossan. Crossan looks at Jesus as a social reformer. By looking at Jesus' teachings as trying to invoke political changes at that time, instead of worrying about everyone's personal salvation in the future, you see his message directed at society as a whole instead of the individual. Crossan knows the historical Jesus couldn't cast out demons, but if the story is a metaphor, then it fits with his theory. The demons being named "Legion" refer to the occupying Romans. The man's body represents their society that the Romans forced their way into. Jesus is advocating the removal of Roman control and oppression. He casts the demons into swine, which Jews considered unclean or not pure. Not just a veiled swipe at the Romans, but another reminder for the Jewish people to not associate with the Romans or to adopt their customs. Again, it is a theory. I don't always agree with Crossan but I do respect his opinions. He has significantly contributed to overall scholarly body of work regarding the historical Jesus and early Christianity. Of course, he could just be a dick too...

30th April 2009, 06:03 PM	#22
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,710	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper OK, so in Mark 11, Jesus comes upon a fig tree, realizes the tree has no fruit as it's not fig season, and curses the tree so that it instantly withers. Now, most of the other stuff I read in the Bible, I understand, but this one is just beyond me. For the easiest and simplest answers, see http://www.godhatesfigs.com
	__________________ Evolution and the rest of reality fascinates the be-jeebus out of me!

30th April 2009, 06:11 PM	#23
Typicallucas I AM AN F... B... I... AGENT!! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Next to a burning car in the middle of nowhere. Posts: 623	Originally Posted by six7s For the easiest and simplest answers, see http://www.godhatesfigs.com Oh, snap!

30th April 2009, 06:16 PM	#24
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,710	Originally Posted by Typicallucas Oh, snap! Perhaps unsurprisingly, we're not the first to recognise that pun http://skepticsannotatedbible.com What the Bible says about Figs Quote: (God hates them.) Psalms 105:33 He smote ... their fig trees. Jeremiah 24:2-3 The other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad. Jeremiah 29:17-18 Thus sayeth the Lord of hosts, Behold, I will ... make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil. Hosea 2:12 I will destroy her vines and her fig trees. Matthew 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. Mark 11:13-14, 20 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. ... And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. (Or maybe he doesn't) 2 Kings 20:7 And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.
	__________________ Evolution and the rest of reality fascinates the be-jeebus out of me!

30th April 2009, 06:18 PM	#25
TraneWreck Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 6,414	Originally Posted by Greediguts Nice! The actual theory comes from John Dominic Crossan. Crossan looks at Jesus as a social reformer. By looking at Jesus' teachings as trying to invoke political changes at that time, instead of worrying about everyone's personal salvation in the future, you see his message directed at society as a whole instead of the individual. Crossan knows the historical Jesus couldn't cast out demons, but if the story is a metaphor, then it fits with his theory. The demons being named "Legion" refer to the occupying Romans. The man's body represents their society that the Romans forced their way into. Jesus is advocating the removal of Roman control and oppression. He casts the demons into swine, which Jews considered unclean or not pure. Not just a veiled swipe at the Romans, but another reminder for the Jewish people to not associate with the Romans or to adopt their customs. Again, it is a theory. I don't always agree with Crossan but I do respect his opinions. He has significantly contributed to overall scholarly body of work regarding the historical Jesus and early Christianity. Of course, he could just be a dick too... Haha, I'm glad you saw the humor in my statement, it easily could have been taken otherwise. That interpretation is a huge stretch. The story is sparse with very little detail, there's nothing to indicate the writers meant anything other than a demon-possessed man and a group of pigs. On top of that, Luke and Mark use the name "Legion," but Matthew doesn't (Matthew also has 2 possessed men). If it were really meant to be allegory based on the Roman Legions, the name would be sine qua non. Without the name "Legion" you could easily substitute the corrupt teachings of the Pharisees, or any bugaboo you desire, as the target of the swine slander. It's far more likely that all the talk about demon banishing (which makes up a significant percentage of Jesus and his follower's work) is nothing more than unsophisticated superstition.

30th April 2009, 10:45 PM	#26
Doctor Evil Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Back home Posts: 1,966	I do not like figs. So it all seems fairly reasonable to me, tough I never got mad at a tree.
	__________________ "ut biberent, quando esse nollent " (if they will not eat, then they will drink) -- Publius Claudius Pulcher "In this universe, effect follows cause. I've complained about it but ... " -- House

2nd May 2009, 09:56 PM	#27
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,257	Originally Posted by Holler Hoojer Lemme see. Jesus was a good Jewish boy. Originally Posted by TraneWreck I dunno, Jesus was kind of a dick sometimes. A trimmed dick at that. Originally Posted by Hokulele What would a bunch of Jews want with pigs? Not eating. (I was having a Zen moment there, sue me. ) DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

3rd May 2009, 03:40 AM	#28
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,111	Quote: I do not like figs. So it all seems fairly reasonable to me, tough I never got mad at a tree. You don't like figs, so it makes sense to you to be provoked by a tree not bearing figs? What?

3rd May 2009, 04:25 AM	#29
chillzero Domestic Godless Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Top of the world, ma! Posts: 15,229	So the point was that the power of prayer and belief in god are supreme, and enable you to accomplish anything? Funny how that doesn't work for any believers since then, really.

3rd May 2009, 08:39 AM	#30
PrincessIneffabelle I'm not godless, I'm god-free Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,421	The tree totally had it coming! Stupid fig trees, always acting like they can get away with anything. "Oh, look, it's the bleedin' Messiah . Well, I'm not gonna bend over and pop out some fruit for that nutter!"
	__________________ "What would Jesus do? If you can answer that question with anything other than 'shower the world with endless love and understanding, then flip a wicked ollie on a flaming skateboard,' then you and I have a very different understanding of the man." -Michael Swaim

3rd May 2009, 08:49 AM	#31
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	There's a rumor that Jesus was crucified on a dogwood cross, and god cursed the dogwood tree so that it would never grow big enough to make a cross again. (He forgot about laminates. Now we could make a good cross out of bamboo if we had to.)
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

4th May 2009, 08:29 AM	#32
boloboffin Guest Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 5,001	If a man goes onto his property, flips out over a fig tree, and saws it down, do you try to question why? It's not producing to suit him so he takes it out. No great mystery. So, too, Jesus approaching the Temple -- in all its glory, it was producing nothing to suit him. So Jesus was demonstrating his utter right to take the place out. The fig tree wasn't in season yet? Well, Herod's Temple was always a-building, and it never seemed to be the season to stop the cooperation with the Romans and make the temple holy again. And what sweeter part of God's plan than to have the Romans themselves destroy that which God hated?

4th May 2009, 09:57 AM	#33
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,150	Originally Posted by Robert Oz Jesus was desperately trying to calm down a looney tune. He had his pose right (akin to Darth Vader strangling that military officer on the Death Star), but the guy just kept jumping around and screaming obscenities. The looney tune spooked a bunch of pigs that proceeded to run of a cliff to escape the looney. Jesus turned around to his disciples and said, "Did you see that? Did you see what I did? I totally sent the demons from that guy into the pigs. Spread that one around. That's a good one. Damn, I'm good!" The beauty of it is, if anyone points out that the guy is still a raving looney, Jesus just has to say: "Of course, he's still crazy. He just doesn't have the demons anymore."
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

4th May 2009, 10:38 AM	#34
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Hokulele What would a bunch of Jews want with pigs? Drown 'em all! I assume pigs were off limits for eating already by that point. So why would one have a herd of pigs to begin with? In any case, I get the feeling these were like the agents taking over the wetware of coppertops. Which fits in with the Neo-as-Jesus theory quite well, now that I think about it. It certainly explains why "Jesus", "John the Baptist", "Mary the Hot Former Hooker In Love With Jesus", and so on, didn't care about slaughtering tons of otherwise innocent coppertops. Possessed by "the Devil"? Fair game for a peasant skeetshoot.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 4th May 2009 at 10:39 AM.

4th May 2009, 11:15 AM	#35
TraneWreck Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 6,414	Originally Posted by Beerina I assume pigs were off limits for eating already by that point. So why would one have a herd of pigs to begin with? Well, the pig herder was from the country of the Gadarenes, so he wasn't necessarily Jewish. This makes the story even stranger: a wandering Jew from a neighboring country shows up and demolishes a person's livlihood for no apparant reason.