No such thing as bad publicity – how do I hook the creationists?

EvoEdu · 6th May 2009, 01:10 AM

I'm cross-posting this on the SGU forums. I apologize for that, but I want to get as much feedback as I can.

I run the evolution education website EvoEdu.com, and I'm trying to increase traffic. It occurred to me that it would greatly increase traffic if a major creationist site or two got wind of my evil Darwinism-spreading website and posted a debunking of it. Hopefully, my arguments would be able to hold up somewhat well against their blithering barrage of idiocy (especially since I've pre-countered most of it). More eyes on the site means more publicity.

To that end, I will be sending off a number of emails to prominent creationist websites and organizations, reading as follows (note that the email is entirely free of lies):

"I thought you might want to know – there's a slick new Darwinist website up (EvoEdu.com). It presents a lot of the common evolutionist arguments. Now, a lot of cynics have been saying that advocates of creation science argue against straw men. A good debunking of this website would show that the arguments are against real evolutionist ideas, and can't be dismissed like that.

I think EvoEdu.com is just *screaming* for a thorough debunking.

Cheers!

-Zarvox"

My question is, though, how do I hook them in? It's not enough to get creationist blood boiling by reading the site, they have to get mad enough to want to debunk it. Near as I can see, I've got two ways to do that. I can leave the site untouched, and hope that it lulls them into security. Or I can put up a cheeky news post saying something along the lines of "I love my web analytics software. Welcome, creationists! Enjoy your stay in the land of reason! Come back anytime." (also, note, free of lies – I do love my analytics software). So which option do I pick to hook the most creationists? Or can anybody think of a third option I didn't?

arthwollipot · 6th May 2009, 01:15 AM

I wouldn't lie.

I'd send them an email saying "I've put up this evolution website, and I think it'd be really great if you could come along and provide a critique of the ideas presented therein."

Don't misrepresent your position - that may be something they can use against you later on.

LarianLeQuella · 6th May 2009, 01:16 AM

I will be linking to you from the http://factsnotfantasy.com page I am working on. I figure that having two controversial subjects on one page will get some traffic.

Also, try to put in META tags (for all the good they do...) like "Young Earth Creationism, 6000 year old earth, etc." You know, the ones that a creationist would use.

SezMe · 6th May 2009, 01:57 AM

I want to agree with what arthwollipot said. Much the same thought was going through my mind as I read the OP.

Don't play games. Tell the truth, don't hide your ownership of the web site and don't play legal semantics with the definition of the truth.

Delscottio · 6th May 2009, 02:13 AM

Out of interest have you had the site critiqued by "Darwinists"? Best off for "supporters" to point out errors than the "idiots".

EHocking · 6th May 2009, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Delscottio

Out of interest have you had the site critiqued by "Darwinists"? Best off for "supporters" to point out errors than the "idiots".

I think this is a better approach. Just reading the "Learn" page, you seem to have simplified Evolution down to merely Natural Selection and give the impression that mutations that cause bigger, stronger, faster individuals is the only factor - i.e. a misrepresentation of survival of the fittest. Your antelope example misses the full explanation of environment and also the concept of Arms Race i.e. the predators evolve as the prey evolves. A small point, perhaps, but this simplification, to me, merely reinforces a common misconception of the complexity of the pressures of natural selection.

Here's a passage from Wiki that sums up parts of what you are missing, "Importantly, the fitness of an allele is not a fixed characteristic, if the environment changes, previously neutral or harmful traits may become beneficial and previously beneficial traits become harmful.[2]" You seem to impress that only mutations that result in bigger, faster, stronger organisms is the result and driving force of natural selection.

A minor nitpick, but I feel that your oversimplification on the website misrepresents even the Darwinian theory of Evolution. Needs more work, IMHO.

EvoEdu · 6th May 2009, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by EHocking

I think this is a better approach. Just reading the "Learn" page, you seem to have simplified Evolution down to merely Natural Selection and give the impression that mutations that cause bigger, stronger, faster individuals is the only factor - i.e. a misrepresentation of survival of the fittest. Your antelope example misses the full explanation of environment and also the concept of Arms Race i.e. the predators evolve as the prey evolves. A small point, perhaps, but this simplification, to me, merely reinforces a common misconception of the complexity of the pressures of natural selection.

Here's a passage from Wiki that sums up parts of what you are missing, "Importantly, the fitness of an allele is not a fixed characteristic, if the environment changes, previously neutral or harmful traits may become beneficial and previously beneficial traits become harmful." You seem to impress that only mutations that result in bigger, faster, stronger organisms is the result and driving force of natural selection.

A minor nitpick, but I feel that your oversimplification on the website misrepresents even the Darwinian theory of Evolution. Needs more work, IMHO.

While I, personally, am well aware of what you just wrote (here's a quote from learn that's the closest I skate to this point: "combination of changing selection pressures and diverse, changing gene pools creates new species over time."), the problem is that it's needlessly complex. Evolution is a very complicated and in-depth field of study, and a layman is not going to sit through a discussion of details like this. Everyone has their own "pet" evolutionary topic they'd like to see in the text. Mine, for example, is punctuated equilibrium. But the text can't handle them being put in. A metaphor that I've been having to keep in my mind while writing for the site is as follows: evolution is analogous to a tribe of people. At evoedu.com/education.html the elementary school text is like the skeletons of the members of this tribe. The middle school text is like adding muscles. The high school text (which is very similar to the text on the "learn" page) gives this creation a circulatory system, digestive tract, and everything else it needs to be a human body. The tribe's culture, society, and behavior, however, are beyond the scope of this layman-oriented website.

However! This is why I'm launching that series of articles I talk about in the news post. Because you're right – the public does need education on topics like this.

Considering the advice I've been getting, I'm starting to become convinced – I should not try to trick them, but rather engage openly and honestly. And truly and honestly, everyone –*thanks for the feedback. It means a lot to me.

EvoEdu · 6th May 2009, 02:10 PM

Sorry about the double post, but I've written a new email – tell me what you think of this one:

"My name is Tristan Zimmerman. I'm the webmaster of the evolution education website EvoEdu.com

This is a courtesy call letting you know not only about the existence of the website, but also that I'm offering myself up to be debunked. I'd be more than happy to offer any reasonable assistance you might desire in that debunking, short of changing content on the site.

You will find that EvoEdu.com has many (if not most) of the most common pro-evolution arguments. They are all collected into one central text, which is written so that anyone can understand it with ease. Instead of debunking more complex texts that some of your readers may struggle with, you can debunk mine, whose arguments will be more clear to them (and thus, the flaws should be clearer too).

Let me know what you think!

-Tristan Zimmerman"

If nothing else, it should confuse the hell out of them.

GreyICE · 6th May 2009, 02:11 PM

There's no such thing as bad publicity... so you're trying to get them noticed?

Look Don! A windmill!

EvoEdu · 6th May 2009, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by GreyICE

There's no such thing as bad publicity... so you're trying to get them noticed?

Look Don! A windmill!

?

I have no plans to link to any of them.

EvoEdu · 6th May 2009, 06:51 PM

Based on feedback I have received, here is my third draft of my letter to the creationists, which is very different from the previous two, and argues an entirely different point:

"My name is Tristan Zimmerman. I'm the webmaster of the evolution education website EvoEdu.com. I'm writing to you with something of an unusual request, but please don't dismiss it out of hand.

This is a courtesy call to let you know about the website and the potential advantages it can offer to you. EvoEdu presents the theory of evolution in a way that's actually easy to understand, free, and accessible to the layman. It has educational materials available in text and audio formats and handouts designed for elementary, middle, and high school students.

I would be happy to have EvoEdu serve as your go-to site for demonstrating what proponents of evolution think. Since, unlike many evolution sites, the content on EvoEdu is easy for the layman to understand, visitors that have stopped by EvoEdu to read about a pro-evolution argument are more likely to understand it. If they understand the evolutionary argument better, they will understand your counter-argument better. Furthermore, your visitors would be better-informed about what scientists say evolution is and how it works, which will help them better argue against evolution in their day-to-day life.

You get more informed visitors. I get more traffic. It's a win/win situation. Let me know what you think!

-Tristan Zimmerman"

arthwollipot · 6th May 2009, 11:24 PM

I think your later drafts are a much better approach to the situation. Let us know how it goes!

rjh01 · 7th May 2009, 12:44 AM

Ever thought about joining creationists websites and spreading the word there? You will be banned and your posts removed quickly but might persuade a few people to look and see.

However what you want are the people who live close to or on the fence, not the hard core people. There is nothing you can do to persuade them.

GreyICE · 11th May 2009, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Ever thought about joining creationists websites and spreading the word there? You will be banned and your posts removed quickly but might persuade a few people to look and see.

This just annoys me. Does anyone really think that joining a site with the sole purpose of breaking the rules of that site wins converts?

I mean imagine someone burst into a church and screamed "God doesn't exist."

I might agree with him, but I'm still gonna want to smack him upside the head. Doing the internet equivalent of that is not going to win friends and influence people. Being 'that guy' on the internet is still being a dweeb. You're a frikkin idiot if you think this does anything other than feed your own sense of self-importance.

I can't help remembering the words of a former evangelical on this very site (I can't find them, or I would link). To paraphrase, he said that on days where he met someone (or even a few people), and they talked with him, took some pamphlets, and agreed to come to his church, he felt okay, but not great. But on days where people screamed at him, yelled at him, and generally called him names, he felt great. He was defending his belief from the ignorant masses.

I submit that by doing that you're evangelizing, rather than trying to convince.

jasonpatterson · 11th May 2009, 10:06 AM

Best way to hook creationists? Treble, right in the corner of their mouth. No matter how hard they fight, they just can't shake it.

rjh01 · 12th May 2009, 05:13 AM

An atheist is not creating trouble by just turning up to church. Not suggesting you create trouble, just exist at their forum. Your mere presence will be enough.

What is the most embarrassing thing can happen to a person who denies that unicorns exist? A unicorn turning up.

GreyICE · 12th May 2009, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

An atheist is not creating trouble by just turning up to church. Not suggesting you create trouble, just exist at their forum. Your mere presence will be enough.

What is the most embarrassing thing can happen to a person who denies that unicorns exist? A unicorn turning up.

Yes, you were suggesting just registering for their forums, not advertising on their forums and using them to 'spread the word.'

You could learn from mhaze, leave these things alone for a page or two before you spin (cute term for lie, really) what you said.

6th May 2009, 01:10 AM	#1
EvoEdu New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 13	No such thing as bad publicity – how do I hook the creationists? I'm cross-posting this on the SGU forums. I apologize for that, but I want to get as much feedback as I can. I run the evolution education website EvoEdu.com, and I'm trying to increase traffic. It occurred to me that it would greatly increase traffic if a major creationist site or two got wind of my evil Darwinism-spreading website and posted a debunking of it. Hopefully, my arguments would be able to hold up somewhat well against their blithering barrage of idiocy (especially since I've pre-countered most of it). More eyes on the site means more publicity. To that end, I will be sending off a number of emails to prominent creationist websites and organizations, reading as follows (note that the email is entirely free of lies): "I thought you might want to know – there's a slick new Darwinist website up (EvoEdu.com). It presents a lot of the common evolutionist arguments. Now, a lot of cynics have been saying that advocates of creation science argue against straw men. A good debunking of this website would show that the arguments are against real evolutionist ideas, and can't be dismissed like that. I think EvoEdu.com is just screaming for a thorough debunking. Cheers! -Zarvox" My question is, though, how do I hook them in? It's not enough to get creationist blood boiling by reading the site, they have to get mad enough to want to debunk it. Near as I can see, I've got two ways to do that. I can leave the site untouched, and hope that it lulls them into security. Or I can put up a cheeky news post saying something along the lines of "I love my web analytics software. Welcome, creationists! Enjoy your stay in the land of reason! Come back anytime." (also, note, free of lies – I do love my analytics software). So which option do I pick to hook the most creationists? Or can anybody think of a third option I didn't?
EvoEdu New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 13

6th May 2009, 01:15 AM	#2
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,038	I wouldn't lie. I'd send them an email saying "I've put up this evolution website, and I think it'd be really great if you could come along and provide a critique of the ideas presented therein." Don't misrepresent your position - that may be something they can use against you later on.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

6th May 2009, 01:16 AM	#3
LarianLeQuella Elf Wino Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun Posts: 1,995	I will be linking to you from the http://factsnotfantasy.com page I am working on. I figure that having two controversial subjects on one page will get some traffic. Also, try to put in META tags (for all the good they do...) like "Young Earth Creationism, 6000 year old earth, etc." You know, the ones that a creationist would use.
	__________________ My crappy blog that no one should be forced to read. Ever... But I like traffic and comments, so have at it if you please. Larian LeQuella Armyn ab Treanid

6th May 2009, 02:13 AM	#5
Delscottio Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 809	Out of interest have you had the site critiqued by "Darwinists"? Best off for "supporters" to point out errors than the "idiots".
Delscottio Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 809

6th May 2009, 04:49 AM	#6
EHocking Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,410	Originally Posted by Delscottio Out of interest have you had the site critiqued by "Darwinists"? Best off for "supporters" to point out errors than the "idiots". I think this is a better approach. Just reading the "Learn" page, you seem to have simplified Evolution down to merely Natural Selection and give the impression that mutations that cause bigger, stronger, faster individuals is the only factor - i.e. a misrepresentation of survival of the fittest. Your antelope example misses the full explanation of environment and also the concept of Arms Race i.e. the predators evolve as the prey evolves. A small point, perhaps, but this simplification, to me, merely reinforces a common misconception of the complexity of the pressures of natural selection. Here's a passage from Wiki that sums up parts of what you are missing, "Importantly, the fitness of an allele is not a fixed characteristic, if the environment changes, previously neutral or harmful traits may become beneficial and previously beneficial traits become harmful.[2]" You seem to impress that only mutations that result in bigger, faster, stronger organisms is the result and driving force of natural selection. A minor nitpick, but I feel that your oversimplification on the website misrepresents even the Darwinian theory of Evolution. Needs more work, IMHO.
EHocking Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,410	__________________ "A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite Forum Birdwatching Webpage

6th May 2009, 01:57 AM	#4
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,367	I want to agree with what arthwollipot said. Much the same thought was going through my mind as I read the OP. Don't play games. Tell the truth, don't hide your ownership of the web site and don't play legal semantics with the definition of the truth.

6th May 2009, 07:13 AM	#7
EvoEdu New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 13	Originally Posted by EHocking I think this is a better approach. Just reading the "Learn" page, you seem to have simplified Evolution down to merely Natural Selection and give the impression that mutations that cause bigger, stronger, faster individuals is the only factor - i.e. a misrepresentation of survival of the fittest. Your antelope example misses the full explanation of environment and also the concept of Arms Race i.e. the predators evolve as the prey evolves. A small point, perhaps, but this simplification, to me, merely reinforces a common misconception of the complexity of the pressures of natural selection. Here's a passage from Wiki that sums up parts of what you are missing, "Importantly, the fitness of an allele is not a fixed characteristic, if the environment changes, previously neutral or harmful traits may become beneficial and previously beneficial traits become harmful." You seem to impress that only mutations that result in bigger, faster, stronger organisms is the result and driving force of natural selection. A minor nitpick, but I feel that your oversimplification on the website misrepresents even the Darwinian theory of Evolution. Needs more work, IMHO. While I, personally, am well aware of what you just wrote (here's a quote from learn that's the closest I skate to this point: "combination of changing selection pressures and diverse, changing gene pools creates new species over time."), the problem is that it's needlessly complex. Evolution is a very complicated and in-depth field of study, and a layman is not going to sit through a discussion of details like this. Everyone has their own "pet" evolutionary topic they'd like to see in the text. Mine, for example, is punctuated equilibrium. But the text can't handle them being put in. A metaphor that I've been having to keep in my mind while writing for the site is as follows: evolution is analogous to a tribe of people. At evoedu.com/education.html the elementary school text is like the skeletons of the members of this tribe. The middle school text is like adding muscles. The high school text (which is very similar to the text on the "learn" page) gives this creation a circulatory system, digestive tract, and everything else it needs to be a human body. The tribe's culture, society, and behavior, however, are beyond the scope of this layman-oriented website. However! This is why I'm launching that series of articles I talk about in the news post. Because you're right – the public does need education on topics like this. Considering the advice I've been getting, I'm starting to become convinced – I should not try to trick them, but rather engage openly and honestly. And truly and honestly, everyone –*thanks for the feedback. It means a lot to me.
EvoEdu New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 13

6th May 2009, 02:10 PM	#8
EvoEdu New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 13	Sorry about the double post, but I've written a new email – tell me what you think of this one: "My name is Tristan Zimmerman. I'm the webmaster of the evolution education website EvoEdu.com This is a courtesy call letting you know not only about the existence of the website, but also that I'm offering myself up to be debunked. I'd be more than happy to offer any reasonable assistance you might desire in that debunking, short of changing content on the site. You will find that EvoEdu.com has many (if not most) of the most common pro-evolution arguments. They are all collected into one central text, which is written so that anyone can understand it with ease. Instead of debunking more complex texts that some of your readers may struggle with, you can debunk mine, whose arguments will be more clear to them (and thus, the flaws should be clearer too). Let me know what you think! -Tristan Zimmerman" If nothing else, it should confuse the hell out of them.
EvoEdu New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 13

6th May 2009, 02:11 PM	#9
GreyICE Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,173	There's no such thing as bad publicity... so you're trying to get them noticed? Look Don! A windmill!
GreyICE Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,173

6th May 2009, 02:34 PM	#10
EvoEdu New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 13	Originally Posted by GreyICE There's no such thing as bad publicity... so you're trying to get them noticed? Look Don! A windmill! ? I have no plans to link to any of them.
EvoEdu New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 13

6th May 2009, 06:51 PM	#11
EvoEdu New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 13	Based on feedback I have received, here is my third draft of my letter to the creationists, which is very different from the previous two, and argues an entirely different point: "My name is Tristan Zimmerman. I'm the webmaster of the evolution education website EvoEdu.com. I'm writing to you with something of an unusual request, but please don't dismiss it out of hand. This is a courtesy call to let you know about the website and the potential advantages it can offer to you. EvoEdu presents the theory of evolution in a way that's actually easy to understand, free, and accessible to the layman. It has educational materials available in text and audio formats and handouts designed for elementary, middle, and high school students. I would be happy to have EvoEdu serve as your go-to site for demonstrating what proponents of evolution think. Since, unlike many evolution sites, the content on EvoEdu is easy for the layman to understand, visitors that have stopped by EvoEdu to read about a pro-evolution argument are more likely to understand it. If they understand the evolutionary argument better, they will understand your counter-argument better. Furthermore, your visitors would be better-informed about what scientists say evolution is and how it works, which will help them better argue against evolution in their day-to-day life. You get more informed visitors. I get more traffic. It's a win/win situation. Let me know what you think! -Tristan Zimmerman"
EvoEdu New Blood Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 13	Last edited by EvoEdu; 6th May 2009 at 06:54 PM.

6th May 2009, 11:24 PM	#12
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,038	I think your later drafts are a much better approach to the situation. Let us know how it goes!
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

7th May 2009, 12:44 AM	#13
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,197	Ever thought about joining creationists websites and spreading the word there? You will be banned and your posts removed quickly but might persuade a few people to look and see. However what you want are the people who live close to or on the fence, not the hard core people. There is nothing you can do to persuade them.

11th May 2009, 08:42 AM	#14
GreyICE Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,173	Originally Posted by rjh01 Ever thought about joining creationists websites and spreading the word there? You will be banned and your posts removed quickly but might persuade a few people to look and see. This just annoys me. Does anyone really think that joining a site with the sole purpose of breaking the rules of that site wins converts? I mean imagine someone burst into a church and screamed "God doesn't exist." I might agree with him, but I'm still gonna want to smack him upside the head. Doing the internet equivalent of that is not going to win friends and influence people. Being 'that guy' on the internet is still being a dweeb. You're a frikkin idiot if you think this does anything other than feed your own sense of self-importance. I can't help remembering the words of a former evangelical on this very site (I can't find them, or I would link). To paraphrase, he said that on days where he met someone (or even a few people), and they talked with him, took some pamphlets, and agreed to come to his church, he felt okay, but not great. But on days where people screamed at him, yelled at him, and generally called him names, he felt great. He was defending his belief from the ignorant masses. I submit that by doing that you're evangelizing, rather than trying to convince.
GreyICE Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,173

11th May 2009, 10:06 AM	#15
jasonpatterson Philanthropic Misanthrope Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Space, The Final Frontier Posts: 2,183	Best way to hook creationists? Treble, right in the corner of their mouth. No matter how hard they fight, they just can't shake it.
	__________________ Sandra's seen a leprechaun, Eddie touched a troll, Laurie danced with witches once, Charlie found some goblins' gold. Donald heard a mermaid sing, Susie spied an elf, But all the magic I have known I've had to make myself. - Shel Silverstein

12th May 2009, 05:13 AM	#16
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,197	An atheist is not creating trouble by just turning up to church. Not suggesting you create trouble, just exist at their forum. Your mere presence will be enough. What is the most embarrassing thing can happen to a person who denies that unicorns exist? A unicorn turning up.

12th May 2009, 07:01 AM	#17
GreyICE Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,173	Originally Posted by rjh01 An atheist is not creating trouble by just turning up to church. Not suggesting you create trouble, just exist at their forum. Your mere presence will be enough. What is the most embarrassing thing can happen to a person who denies that unicorns exist? A unicorn turning up. Yes, you were suggesting just registering for their forums, not advertising on their forums and using them to 'spread the word.' You could learn from mhaze, leave these things alone for a page or two before you spin (cute term for lie, really) what you said.
GreyICE Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,173