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Old 26th May 2009, 07:23 AM   #1
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California SB 777, Girls in the Boys Locker Room?

Sometimes, I read something that appears credible, but something seems fishy. I’m wondering if someone can shed light on what is really happening with the lawsuit described below.

According to the plaintiff’s attorneys, California’s SB 777, which was meant to be an anti-discrimination law providing protection for LGBT students, actually allows students to define their own gender to be whatever they feel it ought to be. They are raising some pretty alarmist issues. I stumbled across the lawsuit when looking up something about a different lawsuit where the same advocacy group represented a student. The group is called “Advocates for Faith and Freedom” and appears to be a group taking the traditional Christian side in the courts.

The lawsuit is entitled “California Education Committee v. Arnold Schwarzenegger”. It claims a whole lot of things, but the most sensational is that it will require sharing of locker rooms and/or restrooms by opposite sex high school students.

Here’s a link to their web page about the lawsuit:

http://www.faith-freedom.com/in-the-...schwarzenegger


Here’s some text from their facebook page:

Originally Posted by Advocates for Faith and Freedom
The consequences of this law are tragic for students in public schools. It will require the girls’ locker room in public schools to be open to any boy claiming to be a girl and vice versa. In fact, two students and their parents, who were recently added as Plaintiffs to this case, have stated that their school has allowed a female student, who self-identifies as a male, to change clothes in the male locker room.
To my way of thinking, if there were girls in the boys locker room in high school, it would be fairly easy to hear about it. That’s the kind of thing that gets people talking. On the other hand, these people have actually, apparently, added plaintiffs to their suit who are claiming exactly that.

If this lawsuit were correct, I can picture tens of thousands of teenage boys contemplating wearing a dress for just long enough to convince the principal that they actually self identify as females, just to get one chance in the locker room. Somehow, I suspect that the real story is slightly less salacious. There’s probably a grain of truth to the story, but I’m wondering just how much of a grain.

Google turned up precious little, which reinforces my belief that there is less to this story than meets the eye. However, if anyone has info, I would appreciate hearing the story behind the story.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 26th May 2009 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 26th May 2009, 07:42 AM   #2
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"Advocates for Faith and Freedom"?

Man, if they just put the word "family" in the title, it would be perfect.
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Old 26th May 2009, 07:48 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If this lawsuit were correct, I can picture tens of thousands of teenage boys contemplating wearing a dress for just long enough to convince the principal that they actually self identify as females, just to get one chance in the locker room. Somehow, I suspect that the real story is slightly less salacious. There’s probably a grain of truth to the story, but I’m wondering just how much of a grain.
Well there are trans teens, so why shouldn't they be allowed to use the area's associated with their identity?

This is just fairly typical issues that transgendered/sexual individuals have to deal with. I don't see that many teenage boys trying to be identified as girls in school just to see girls changing.

This is all because people are way too up tight about their bodies.
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Old 26th May 2009, 07:50 AM   #4
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Quote:
The consequences of this law are tragic for students in public schools. It will require the girls’ locker room in public schools to be open to any boy claiming to be a girl and vice versa. In fact, two students and their parents, who were recently added as Plaintiffs to this case, have stated that their school has allowed a female student, who self-identifies as a male, to change clothes in the male locker room.
This may have something to do with my nudist leanings, but I honestly don't see the problem. The students will go to great lengths to avoid any visibility of private parts, and the worst consequence will most likely be that the boys and girls see each others undies, which shouldn't be anything to complain about. In my view, this is no different from allowing homosexual males to use male locker rooms, or lesbians to use female locker rooms. The only problem I see is that showers might present a problem, but if they take it in turns, everything should go smoothly.

People change clothes on the beach, and it doesn't present a problem then. Girls and boys walk around by swimming pools with swimwear which cover nothing more than what underwear does, and no one complains then.

Then again, this sounds like 99% paranoid tabloid-style alarmism and 1% actual veracity. If you ask me, my gut feeling tells me it's one of those "OMG Obama is a muslim"-style sound bites used to divert people from the real issue.

ETA:
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle
Well there are trans teens, so why shouldn't they be allowed to use the area's associated with their identity?
Exactly. What people have to realize is that a transgender person isn't a boy pretending to be a female, it's a female trapped in a boy's body. In essence, if you'll excuse my vulgarity, a girl with a penis. The web master of the old FSTDT.com site, Yahweh, was open about her transgender situation and up until her sex change operation, she was in every respect, including looks, female.

If I woke up with a vagina and breasts one day, would I be comfortable using the girl's locker rooms all of a sudden? Nope.

ETA2:
Quote:
I can picture tens of thousands of teenage boys contemplating wearing a dress for just long enough to convince the principal that they actually self identify as females, just to get one chance in the locker room.
Being transgender, far as I know, is something you're born with. I think parents would speak up if their boy all of a sudden pretended to be a girl and asked for permission to go in the girl's room.
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Old 26th May 2009, 08:06 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
ETA:
Exactly. What people have to realize is that a transgender person isn't a boy pretending to be a female, it's a female trapped in a boy's body. In essence, if you'll excuse my vulgarity, a girl with a penis. The web master of the old FSTDT.com site, Yahweh, was open about her transgender situation and up until her sex change operation, she was in every respect, including looks, female.
Not sure your picked the best pronouns here. This is something I wonder about, I should ask my friend if I should use masculine pronouns when refering to him, as most of the time I knew him he was a woman(and I do not think has had or has any plans for having surgery to the best of my knowledge).

Quote:
ETA2:
Being transgender, far as I know, is something you're born with. I think parents would speak up if their boy all of a sudden pretended to be a girl and asked for permission to go in the girl's room.
The point that I tried to raise was this is more than just the locker room, it is about the schools recognizing them as the gender of their preference(and here it would be gender exclusively, as I do not think that doctors would ethicaly perform sex reassignment surgery to someone under age).

The reactions that someone would wear a dress to get into the girls locker room are silly, because it is not wearing a dress. It would also be changing their name in all likely hood and a lot of other changes as well. The reaction that highschool kids are likely to have would seem like enough discouragement to me, as it would raise the bar fairly high and mean that only those willing to get the teasing and the like that would go with it will do it.

This whole thing seems to be more christians trying to convince everyone that their bodies are evil.
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Old 26th May 2009, 08:20 AM   #6
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Also, while a boy might like to get a peak inside the girls' locker room, most boys, I think, would not be too excited about changing clothes or showering in a room full of girls.
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Old 26th May 2009, 08:49 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
Also, while a boy might like to get a peak inside the girls' locker room, most boys, I think, would not be too excited about changing clothes or showering in a room full of girls.
I can't remember back that far, but if it were a room full of naked girls? I'm thinking I could have been persuaded. I know that the first time an opportunity arose, a year or two after I graduated high school, I took advantage of opportunities for shared casual nudity. (Group skinny dips, and similar activities.)

Would it really result in anything other than fantasy? I think it would depend on just how much work you had to go to to make it happen. If the teachers were required by law to respect your wishes, I think some kids would do it just to prove a point. I skimmed the actual complaint in the lawsuit, and a major part of the teachers' objections rested on the fact that the teachers would be in a position where they would have to read the students' minds to tell if they were "really" boys or girls, which created a situation where they could be sued for getting it wrong.

At any rate, I want to emphasize that, according to the lawsuit, it is, in fact, already happening, so I would like to see if there is any information that would shed light on the reality of the situation. Speculation is fun, and I don't want to discourage it completely, but if anyone has any actual infromation, I would take it.

eta: I did some more looking at the court documents, and it's looking like this might indeed be every bit as crazy as it appears. Two of the plaintiffs are "K.S." and "B.B" "B.B" is a high school boy at a northern California public school, unnamed. According to the complaint, while "B.B" was in junior high, a girl who self identified as a boy was allowed to use the boys' locker room. I haven't seen any confirmation of this from another source, but I noted that in the court documents asking for a dismissal of the case, no one disputed the fact that it had occurred. They just declared that the named defendants were not the proper people to sue in such a case.

"K.S." is a girl at the same school. The two students are concerned that the policy might continue, and that their reasonable expectations of privacy, not having to take their clothes off in front of an opposite sex individual, or be present when an opposite sex individual did the same, will be violated.

Meanwhile, in response to an amicus briefing, the plaintiffs say that California Equality did, in fact, "brazenly" assert that girls did have a right to use boys' locker rooms in some circumstances, and vice versa. I haven't found a copy of the actual amicus briefing in which the assertion was allegedly made.

Call me old fashioned, but I think that people who have a penis ought to use the boys' locker room, and people that don't have a penis ought to use the girls' locker room. In rare cases, it might actually be difficult to make a judgement call on exactly which category someone fits, but those cases are so incredibly rare that if we just leave the law in its oversimplified state, we can rely on judges or government authorities to work out the details for specific instances on a case by case basis.

ETA2: The original case was CEC v. O'Connell. O'Connell is the state school superintendent. Schwarzenegger and Jerry Brown were added as defendants later, so that the ammended case is CEC v. Schwarzenegger.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 26th May 2009 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 26th May 2009, 10:25 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
At any rate, I want to emphasize that, according to the lawsuit, it is, in fact, already happening, so I would like to see if there is any information that would shed light on the reality of the situation. Speculation is fun, and I don't want to discourage it completely, but if anyone has any actual infromation, I would take it.
Well, here's the text of the bill and here's the California School Boards Association's FAQ (pdf).

From the latter (emphasis original):
Quote:
A number of advocacy organizations – including the California Family Council, the Capitol Resource Institute, and the Campaign for Children and Families – opposed SB 777, AB 537, and the Title 5 regulations prior to their adoption. These organizations have claimed that SB 777 will prohibit LEAs from having a prom queen and king, require textbooks to include historical references to homosexual, transgender, transsexual and bisexual figures, and require schools to allow boys to use the girls’ restroom if they claim to identify with the female gender. Neither CSBA nor the California Department of Education agree with those claims. Education Code Section 231 specifically states that nothing in the sex equity and sexual harassment statutes or regulations prohibits an LEA from maintaining separate bathroom, locker room, or residential facilities for males and females.
Actually, I think that answer dodges the point a bit (the issue isn't about the existence of separate facilities), but obviously there's significant disagreement on the the implications of the bill. Reading the bill, it's pretty clear that it just clarifies the definitions of protected classes in public schools. It's a stretch to draw the conclusions about specific practices cited in the OP without strong precedents.

Personally, I think the clinical concept of gender identity is, while relatively young, sufficiently established to deal with the vast majority of frivolous claims.
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Old 26th May 2009, 10:35 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I can't remember back that far, but if it were a room full of naked girls? I'm thinking I could have been persuaded. I know that the first time an opportunity arose, a year or two after I graduated high school, I took advantage of opportunities for shared casual nudity. (Group skinny dips, and similar activities.)
Everyone is different, of course, but I think a lot of high schoolers are not yet secure about their own bodies, and would try to avoid even the possibility of having a locker room full of the opposite sex pointing and laughing. At least I feel pretty confident that a boy insinuating himself into that situation against the wishes of most of the girls present would find that said girls could make his life very unpleasant.
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Old 26th May 2009, 11:35 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Call me old fashioned, but I think that people who have a penis ought to use the boys' locker room, and people that don't have a penis ought to use the girls' locker room. In rare cases, it might actually be difficult to make a judgement call on exactly which category someone fits, but those cases are so incredibly rare that if we just leave the law in its oversimplified state, we can rely on judges or government authorities to work out the details for specific instances on a case by case basis.
So you think that the so called "pregnant man" should have his marriage desolved because it involves two people with wombs?
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Old 26th May 2009, 11:41 AM   #11
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I found the amicus briefing. It's nuts.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Originally Posted by Equality California
Plaintiffs' claim that the non-discrimination statutes threaten their safety (Complaint, ff 41-
41) is precisely backwards: transgender students face a far greater risk of harassment and physical
violence than other students….That risk is significantly reduced by protecting transgender students from
ig discrimination and integrating them into school activities and facilities, including permitting such
students to use facilities consistent with their gender identity. For example, a transgender girl, who
consistently identifies and presents herself as female, would be at serious risk of harm in facilities
designated for boys. Conversely, the safety of a non-transgender student like B.B. is not
compromised by the presence of a transgender boy. (See Complaint, f 37.) The state's interest in
protecting the safety of vulnerable transgender students far outweighs Plaintiffs' unsupported fear
21 of being harmed by those students.
Quote:
Requiring that a transgender student use the facilities designated for the gender with which he or
she does not identify could be psychologically damaging as well as demeaning. (See Wilber et al.,
Child Welfare League of America Best Practice Guidelines: Serving Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, &
Transgender Youth in Out-Of-Home Care (2006) pp. 49-50; cf. Doe v. Bell (N.Y.Sup.Ct. 2003) 754
7 N.Y.S.2d 846, 853 [noting that transgender teenage girl experiences serious "psychological
distress" when forced to wear boys' clothing]; Yunits, at p. *1 [transgender girl's doctor determined
that being denied the right to wear girls' clothing "could cause harm to [her] mental health"].)
The non-discrimination statutes effectively promote the compelling interest of the state and
of local school districts in safeguarding the well-being of the vulnerable population of transgender
11
students by protecting them from the risk of serious physical or psychological harm. That interest
12
is much stronger than Plaintiffs' alleged interest in not sharing facilities with transgender students.
13

I read through most of it, thinking that maybe these nut cases were using "transgender" only to refer to cases in which someone actually had had gender reassignment surgery, or at least were doing so when talking about using locker rooms. It makes sense to me that people who have undergone such surgery be assigned to the locker room that matches their currently attached equipment. However, they made it fairly clear near the end of their brief that this was not the case. They talked about how easy it would be to accomodate girls that happened to have penises by just letting them use the girls' locker room at different times than the other girls. (That is a paraphrase, but it isn't an exaggeration.)

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Old 26th May 2009, 11:48 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I read through most of it, thinking that maybe these nut cases were using "transgender" only to refer to cases in which someone actually had had gender reassignment surgery, or at least were doing so when talking about using locker rooms. It makes sense to me that people who have undergone such surgery be assigned to the locker room that matches their currently attached equipment. However, they made it fairly clear near the end of their brief that this was not the case. They talked about how easy it would be to accomodate girls that happened to have penises by just letting them use the girls' locker room at different times than the other girls. (That is a paraphrase, but it isn't an exaggeration.)
Anything to single them out for more harrasment from their classmates right? Make them the clearest targets possible and let highschool kids display their natural empathy?

Again these are children and in general while they might be taking drugs to prevent the changes from purberty they will likely have not had surgical reassignment.
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Old 26th May 2009, 11:50 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They talked about how easy it would be to accomodate girls that happened to have penises by just letting them use the girls' locker room at different times than the other girls.
Is there anything in particular wrong with that?
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Old 26th May 2009, 12:16 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Call me old fashioned, but I think that people who have a penis ought to use the boys' locker room, and people that don't have a penis ought to use the girls' locker room.
Call me avant-gardist, but I think people should change clothes in privacy. That way transgenders benefit, and so would everyone else.

Quote:
I skimmed the actual complaint in the lawsuit, and a major part of the teachers' objections rested on the fact that the teachers would be in a position where they would have to read the students' minds to tell if they were "really" boys or girls, which created a situation where they could be sued for getting it wrong.
If so the teachers' objections don't make a lot of sense. They wouldn't need to read students' minds, they would just need to look at what gender role those students are consistently living in.
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Old 26th May 2009, 12:29 PM   #15
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I can't imagine a girl being comfortable with males in their locker room. What if a girl is changing and she happens to notice a boy starring at her with an erection? Would that be ok?
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Old 26th May 2009, 12:37 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
I can't imagine a girl being comfortable with males in their locker room. What if a girl is changing and she happens to notice a boy starring at her with an erection? Would that be ok?

I would take it as a compliment, but that's just me
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Old 26th May 2009, 12:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Quote:
They talked about how easy it would be to accomodate girls that happened to have penises by just letting them use the girls' locker room at different times than the other girls.
Is there anything in particular wrong with that?
Besides from the fact that it's outright segregation, no.
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Old 26th May 2009, 12:40 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
I can't imagine a girl being comfortable with males in their locker room. What if a girl is changing and she happens to notice a boy starring at her with an erection? Would that be ok?
Don't you understand? It wouldn't be a boy. It would be a girl with an erect penis.

Sheesh. Some people just don't get it.
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Old 26th May 2009, 12:42 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Don't you understand? It wouldn't be a boy. It would be a girl with an erect penis.

Sheesh. Some people just don't get it.
Are we not talking about combining girls and boys locker rooms? Or are we just talking about the trans gender thing?
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Old 26th May 2009, 12:49 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Are we not talking about combining girls and boys locker rooms? Or are we just talking about the trans gender thing?
Just the transgender thing, but not just the surgically transgendered. If you say you are a girl, then you are a girl. If you have a penis, then you are a girl with a penis.

ETA: Of course, you could solve the whole problem by combining boys and girls locker rooms, then there would be no discrimination at all.

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Old 26th May 2009, 12:58 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well there are trans teens, so why shouldn't they be allowed to use the area's associated with their identity?

This is just fairly typical issues that transgendered/sexual individuals have to deal with. I don't see that many teenage boys trying to be identified as girls in school just to see girls changing.

This is all because people are way too up tight about their bodies.
If a tranny used the girls shower wouldn't that violate the rights of the girls who aren't interested in looking at him her?
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:02 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
I can't imagine a girl being comfortable with males in their locker room. What if a girl is changing and she happens to notice a boy starring at her with an erection? Would that be ok?
...bolding mine:
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They talked about how easy it would be to accomodate girls that happened to have penises by just letting them use the girls' locker room at different times than the other girls.
which is why I asked is there anything in particular wrong with that?
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So you think that the so called "pregnant man" should have his marriage desolved because it involves two people with wombs?
Where on earth did this come from? How did you make the cosmic leap from "shared locker rooms" to "dissolved marriages"?
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:08 PM   #24
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So in California, if I was in high school I could state that I identify as a girl and then be allowed to go into the girls locker room? That would be sweet. I would definitely make a mockery of that rule and abuse it to the fullest degree.
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:17 PM   #25
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Quote:
ETA: Of course, you could solve the whole problem by combining boys and girls locker rooms, then there would be no discrimination at all.
Indeed.

Quote:
So in California, if I was in high school I could state that I identify as a girl and then be allowed to go into the girls locker room?
No. If you're transgender or have some sort of reason, yes. If you want to go as a perv and gawk, then no.

This goes far beyond simply "stating that you identify as a girl". As far as I know, no one goes through their whole life as a guy and then suddenly realize they're transgender when it becomes clear they can use this to get into the girls' locker rooms.
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:19 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
If a tranny used the girls shower wouldn't that violate the rights of the girls who aren't interested in looking at him her?
If a lesbian used the shower wouldn't that violate the rights of the girls who did not her looking at them?

So we need to clearly single out all homosexuals in highschool as well, make them wear distinquishing marks like pink triangles.
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by NobbyNobbs View Post
Where on earth did this come from? How did you make the cosmic leap from "shared locker rooms" to "dissolved marriages"?
It is pointing out that the law recognized people as having the gender that they identify with, based solely on their sex organs. He is a very public example of a man, who is legally a man and legally married to a woman who has fully functional female reproductive organs. So by Meadmakers categorization he is not really a man and as such could not have been legally married to a woman.
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:21 PM   #28
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I admit that transgender/transsexuals confuse me. Not that I'm blaming or anything, but that I have a hard time figuring out how to think about them, and the myriad of possibilities (gay vs straight, in particular).

So let's see: "straight female" stuck in a man's body. On one hand, they want to express themselves, so will be very feminine, and let's say they cross-dress as a woman. OK, so then they will be attracted to men. Who would be their partner? Gay man or straight man? The gay man would be attracted to the man part, but then again, he is dressing up as a woman. So would the gay man be attracted to the man disguised in a dress? Meanwhile, would a straight man be attracted to the male cross dresser?

And then there is the possibility of the "gay female stuck in a man's body." Again, he wants to express as a woman, so cross-dresses. Who would his partner be? Would another gay woman love the woman inside? Or would the straight woman love the man under the dress?

It seems a very confusing world to me, at least in terms of relationships. It's either find someone very special who can satisfy their desires, or suppress them. It must be tough.
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
If a lesbian used the shower wouldn't that violate the rights of the girls who did not her looking at them?

So we need to clearly single out all homosexuals in highschool as well, make them wear distinquishing marks like pink triangles.
Not a bad idea honestly. Lesbians and homos get off on seeing the same sex naked correct? Just as a straight man seeing an attractive woman naked would enjoy that. So why should homosexuals be allowed to change with other males in the locker rooms but straight males are not allowed to change in locker rooms with females?
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
So in California, if I was in high school I could state that I identify as a girl and then be allowed to go into the girls locker room? That would be sweet. I would definitely make a mockery of that rule and abuse it to the fullest degree.
So, what is your name then, it must be a womans name if you are going to be known as being transgendered after all. So you need to use that name at all times in school.

All you are saying here is that you are a voyuer, and have not thought through the consequences. You would be considered as a girl by the high school in an official fashion.
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Just the transgender thing, but not just the surgically transgendered.
There is no such thing as "surgically transgendered". It would make no sense at all.

Quote:
If you say you are a girl, then you are a girl.
... surely neither living in a female gender role nor being diagnosed as transgendered are necessary.

Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
So in California, if I was in high school I could state that I identify as a girl and then be allowed to go into the girls locker room?
Highly doubtful.

Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
I can't imagine a girl being comfortable with males in their locker room.
Now you know why a male to female transgendered person would not want share their locker room with males.
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:27 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I admit that transgender/transsexuals confuse me. Not that I'm blaming or anything, but that I have a hard time figuring out how to think about them, and the myriad of possibilities (gay vs straight, in particular).

So let's see: "straight female" stuck in a man's body. On one hand, they want to express themselves, so will be very feminine, and let's say they cross-dress as a woman. OK, so then they will be attracted to men. Who would be their partner? Gay man or straight man? The gay man would be attracted to the man part, but then again, he is dressing up as a woman. So would the gay man be attracted to the man disguised in a dress? Meanwhile, would a straight man be attracted to the male cross dresser?
I think you are overly hung up on labels. It is not cross dressing as such, that is more transvestitism which is different. It is wanting to be thought of and socialy recognized as the gender of their choice. As for who they would hook up with, Dan Savage makes a common point that Male to Female prostitutes generaly do not have homosexual males as customers, but men who would identify as straight.

My friend who was female and is now male made a point that several of his recent partners are straight men.

I think that at this point labels break down quite a bit.
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:28 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Not a bad idea honestly. Lesbians and homos get off on seeing the same sex naked correct? Just as a straight man seeing an attractive woman naked would enjoy that. So why should homosexuals be allowed to change with other males in the locker rooms but straight males are not allowed to change in locker rooms with females?
I see you missed the Godwinning.
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:36 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
So in California, if I was in high school I could state that I identify as a girl and then be allowed to go into the girls locker room? That would be sweet. I would definitely make a mockery of that rule and abuse it to the fullest degree.

If anyone complained after you got an erection, you would have to be sure to sue them for discrimination against lesbians.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 26th May 2009 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:47 PM   #35
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In my high school, circa 1970, one of the boys got a stiffy in the boys' open shower room. The coach's solution was to have the kid use the 'coach's shower' in the coach's office.

I haven't heard his name mentioned since high school, I don't know fersure about his gaiety. Perhaps a nudism taboo, not homosexuality? A stress 'riser', not a sexual exhibition?

Hmmm, there was a bank of lockers in there, plenty for the half dozen coachs. hmmm, perhaps that kid wasn't the only one for whom allowances were made, in those days?
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Old 26th May 2009, 01:55 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
So in California, if I was in high school I could state that I identify as a girl and then be allowed to go into the girls locker room? That would be sweet. I would definitely make a mockery of that rule and abuse it to the fullest degree.
In all seriousness, it isn't likely it would work, at least not today. When the case was going through the courts, Advocates for Faith and Freedom put out a call to find out if any such cases existed, and they only found one. I haven't found out any details about that one case. One not unlikely possibility is that the boy who happened to have a vagina was only allowed to use the boys' locker room once, took off his clothes, revealed his stereotypicallly female equipment, and the other boys raised a fuss about it. That would fit what little information I have about the case, although many other scenarios would also fit the description.

Generally, I would think that most school principals would be very reluctant to grant such a request.

However, also in all seriousness, put yourself in the principal's place. Under what circumstances can he be sued? If you accept the reasoning of the amicus brief filed by Equality California, then he is discriminating if he refuses access to the girls' locker room to any girl, just because that girl happens to have a penis. On the other hand, the other girls in the locker room have no right to avoid the girl who happens to have a penis. If he wants to err on the side of avoiding a lawsuit, he's safer if he grants the girl with a penis the right to use the girls' locker room.

It is actually this problem that took up the bulk of the space of the complaint in the lawsuit. The teachers were concerned they could be sued because they violated someone's civil rights by mistakenly assigning them to the wrong gender's facilities. i.e they worried they might accidentally tell a girl to use the boys' locker room, just because the girl had a penis.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 26th May 2009 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 26th May 2009, 02:12 PM   #37
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I think the idea of a purely heterosexual boy pretending to be a girl to get in the girls locker room is quite stupid. You really think the girls would fall for it and undress and perhaps rub oils and lotions on each other in front of the interloper? I mean in anything other than an adolescent fantasy?
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Old 26th May 2009, 04:03 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I think the idea of a purely heterosexual boy pretending to be a girl to get in the girls locker room is quite stupid.
How about a bisexual?

When I started the thread this morning, I assumed this was a sensationalized story, because no one could possibly tell a young girl in a public school to go into a boys' locker room and take off her clothes. After reading the court documents, it appears I was mistaken. At the very least, a very well funded advocacy group, Equality California, thinks it's a good idea.
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Old 26th May 2009, 04:34 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
How about a bisexual?
How is that relevant? The only people raising sexual preference in this are those using the argument for a really dumb strawman.
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When I started the thread this morning, I assumed this was a sensationalized story, because no one could possibly tell a young girl in a public school to go into a boys' locker room and take off her clothes. After reading the court documents, it appears I was mistaken. At the very least, a very well funded advocacy group, Equality California, thinks it's a good idea.
So you would rather telling the girl to go into the boys locker room and strip just because she has a penis? Trans children are becoming more and more accepted, it is likely that anyone who wanted this had a long history in the school as the gender of their choice.

And honestly I never knew anyone to shower after gym in my school, so someone could probably easily change in the locker room and not have anyone notice as long as they were passing as the gender of their choice.
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Old 26th May 2009, 04:39 PM   #40
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Clearly, the solution is lots more locker rooms and bathrooms, to cover the special needs people.
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