An introduction

Martin · 30th November 2003, 07:27 PM

I'd like to introduce you to a friend of mine from another forum. Less than a year ago, she was a fundamentalist, YEC Christian. Today, after dealing with doubts for some time, she's stepped back from Christianity so that she can examine it more carefully. Her current position is one of generic theism. She finds that it helps to discuss her doubts with both Christians and non-Christians, so I thought this would be the perfect place for her to explore these issues further. Some of the most rational, knowledgeable, generally decent human beings I've ever encountered are here, and I've learned a great deal from you, regardless of faith. I'd name names, but I always leave people out. Suffice to say, you know who you are.

Now that my shamelessly gratuitous flattery has drawn your attention, I'll let Justine explain her position to you in more detail herself. She's smart, honest and willing to learn, and I'm sure that anyone who takes the time to talk to her will find the experience benefits them as much as I know it will her.

sparklecat · 30th November 2003, 07:36 PM

You make me sound like a Subway success story or the like

Yes, I'm a member over at Rapture Ready, and met Martin in apologetics, where we've debated back and forth for around... 6 months or so? I became a Christian two years ago this month- had all the answers and basically pushed my questions aside and took them on faith. Which is not always bad, but as more questions have come up, they have me questioning the entire belief system... Hell, free will, Biblical inspiration, and the system of sacrifice are the main issues. So I feel that I need to step back and really examine my questions from more neutral ground- and not stay away from the nonbelievers, as some have advised!

I think the easiest way to explain this would be to link you to my post over at RR- you need to be a member to get into the forum, but for those who don't have membership, Martin's summary (and mine) aren't too bad- and of course you can ask me any questions you'd like

Oh, you'll need to see the continuation at the second link, as they locked the first thread.

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120181

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120357

Justine

Loki · 30th November 2003, 07:50 PM

sparklecat,

I'm not in a position to register at RR just now - is there an particular question/issue you have that won't require you to recount the entire last 6 months of discussion with Martin?

Which particular variation of christianity are/were you aligned with ? (yes, it sometimes makes a very large difference)

sparklecat · 30th November 2003, 07:54 PM

Version- as Martin said, rather fundamentalist. Evangelical.

As for my questions... the necessity of Hell (in its torture for eternity form), the doctrines of Biblical inspiration and infallibility, the whole sacrifice Christ for our sins and why exactly that method was necessary- if God had to obey some sort of rule there, and how free will is even possible.

c4ts · 30th November 2003, 08:04 PM

I was kicked out of Rapture Ready for introducing factual information. I guess they weren't ready for it.

triadboy · 30th November 2003, 08:07 PM

Welcome sparklecat.

Loki · 30th November 2003, 08:08 PM

sparklecat,

Sure you don't have any serious questions to ask?!?!

Working backwards...

Quote:

...and how free will is even possible.

Define "Free Will". Compatibilism says it's entirely possible, if it's understood (and therefore defined) correctly. If it's defined the way most christians do, then I'd say it's not sensible, and therefore not possible.

Quote:

...the whole sacrifice Christ for our sins and why exactly that method was necessary- if God had to obey some sort of rule there...

Well, they weren't mysins - I'm still unsure why a merciful and loving god would choose to visit the punishment (original sin) upon the children for Adam and Eve's little transgression. And do it for a few thousand generations. Since I can't come to grips with the nature of the alledged problem, I'm afraid I have little to offer as to why god would choose one form of restitution over another.

Quote:

...the doctrines of Biblical inspiration and infallibility...

Infallible in the sense that if something can be shown to be wrong, then it's the interpretation that failed? Or infallible in the sense that if *you* truly read it right, your conclusions can't be wrong?

Quote:

...the necessity of Hell (in its torture for eternity form),...

The simplest thought I have is that an infinite punishment for a finite 'crime' is not what I'd expect from a loving god. Of course, Catholicism is moving away from the "torture" concept nowadays, so perhaps this is a conversation that has already been rejected even by the christian mainstream?

sparklecat · 30th November 2003, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by c4ts
I was kicked out of Rapture Ready for introducing factual information. I guess they weren't ready for it.

lol! Got a link?

Martin · 30th November 2003, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sparklecat

lol! Got a link?

All of his posts can be found here.

Personally, I suspect that the reason he got kicked off was possibly more to do with the fact that he announced both his choesn username and his intention to imitate a Christian on another thread here...

sparklecat · 30th November 2003, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loki
sparklecat,

Sure you don't have any serious questions to ask?!?!

Working backwards...

Define "Free Will". Compatibilism says it's entirely possible, if it's understood (and therefore defined) correctly. If it's defined the way most christians do, then I'd say it's not sensible, and therefore not possible.

Well, they weren't mysins - I'm still unsure why a merciful and loving god would choose to visit the punishment (original sin) upon the children for Adam and Eve's little transgression. And do it for a few thousand generations. Since I can't come to grips with the nature of the alledged problem, I'm afraid I have little to offer as to why god would choose one form of restitution over another.

Infallible in the sense that if something can be shown to be wrong, then it's the interpretation that failed? Or infallible in the sense that if *you* truly read it right, your conclusions can't be wrong?

The simplest thought I have is that an infinite punishment for a finite 'crime' is not what I'd expect from a loving god. Of course, Catholicism is moving away from the "torture" concept nowadays, so perhaps this is a conversation that has already been rejected even by the christian mainstream?

Oh, they're serious enough to me

Free will in that we actually can choose or reject God for some reason not predetermined by him... either our personality which is shaped by our upbringing, or the soul which he supposedly designs as well leads us to make that decision- where's the freedom there? And following that, where's the responsbility?

Well, I have no problem with the problem, as I've sinned myself as well

Infallible in the sense that it doesn't contain obvious errors would work fine.

Sure, but the torture is rather Biblical... so if I want to accept Christianity, it would probably be necessary for me to accept that as well. But I take your point.

sparklecat · 30th November 2003, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin
Personally, I suspect that the reason he got kicked off was possibly more to do with the fact that he announced both his choesn username and his intention to imitate a Christian on another thread here...

That would do it, assuming lurkers...

Some Friggin Guy · 30th November 2003, 08:28 PM

Sparkle, welcome.

As for your questions, I can only tell you how I view things as a former Christian, myself.

Essentially, I determined through a great deal of soul searching and some tremendous personal conflicts with my church that the idea of a rational god made no sense to me. As far as I was able to put together, the concept of god was that he was an all knowing, all-loving, all powerful being who allowed humanity to do things he never intended us to do, couldn't control us except through the fear of eternal punishment.

To me, that meant he was not all knowing, all loving or all powerful.

Also, I found the universe as I had experienced it to be far to chaotic to have been created by any consiousness and too many random and cruel things occured. This meant that god would have been cruel and capriscious.

From there, I began to research histories of religions, including christianity and found major holes in the ohilosophies and traditions, as well as things that science proved totally false.

Finally, I began cross-referencing (no pun intended) christianity with other religions and found that it had little or no original ideas in it. Most traditions in the christian churches I had dealt with were stolen from earlier, pagan religions.

At that point, I decided that there could not, in all probability, actually be a god. During my searching, I found the basic philosophies of Zen Buddhism, which I practice as a way of keeping my mind focussed, but I do not adhere to the "religious" aspects of it.

If you are curious about some of the concepts stolen by christianity, I suggest you search on the net for Mithras, Zoroastrianism, Gilgamesh and Hamurabi for a start. thers in this forum can give you a great deal more to think about and research.

sparklecat · 30th November 2003, 09:22 PM

Thanks SFG

I found your post interesting. I'll look up the groups you named.

Loki · 30th November 2003, 09:32 PM

sparklecat,

Regarding free will, I'll try to post a bit later on a few of possible theist replies.

It sounds like you've already decided that Free Will to choose/reject Jesus isn't possible given an Evangelical kinda god. Are you here looking for someone to convince you otherwise, or are you hoping to find agreement/validation for your opinion????

Yahweh · 30th November 2003, 09:46 PM

Hi Sparklecat, welcome to the forum

!

Just a little about me and my time with RaptureReady...
I registered under the name "Vendyokus". I was banned although I did not violate any rules (I'm assuming someone from the RaptureReady boards alerted the admins that someone from the evil JREF boards had registered...). I probably made 10 or 15 posts, you can search them on RaptureReady and give them a read (I dont know if they've been deleted or edited...). Billiefan2000 sometimes posts here, I worry about the poor kid sometimes.

There was another member by the name of "Funkenstein" who went through the same situation you are going through right now. Here started this thread: A breath of fresh air.

In the mean time, I hope you enjoy it here

.

sparklecat · 30th November 2003, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loki
sparklecat,

Regarding free will, I'll try to post a bit later on a few of possible theist replies.

It sounds like you've already decided that Free Will to choose/reject Jesus isn't possible given an Evangelical kinda god. Are you here looking for someone to convince you otherwise, or are you hoping to find agreement/validation for your opinion????

Good question lol

I would like to be convinced otherwise I think. Not necessarily looking for it here... but I would like a solution. Not just an evangelical God... any god.

*is biased towards Christianity*

sparklecat · 30th November 2003, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh
stuff

First off, thanks

Yeah, I actually responded to you as Vendyokus a time or two I think

Loki · 1st December 2003, 02:41 AM

sparklecat,

A little info on Free Will and christian (well, mostly Catholic) theology...

There are (at least) two main Catholic schools of thought on Free Will,and the interaction with god's knowledge/power/desires. Trying to keep it simple, human Free Will is either :

(a) The result of the choices we make *after* god has set our lives on a given course. God choose this course through the knowledge of what your choices will be. Thus the universe proceeds according to god's plan/desires, yet each of us gets to make a genuine choice in each situation we face in life.

or :

(b) The result of the fact that god knows what our will would do in any given situation (that is, he can see the "potential futures"), and that he then brings about the situations that he desires and in which we make our free choice. The choice is still ours, freely made in the given situation - it's just that god gets to pick the situations he wants after viewing all possible alternatives. Again, the universe proceeds according to god's plan/desires, yet each of us gets to make a genuine choice in each situation we find ourselves in.

The protestants (basically) have a history of rejecting Free Will, although it's not really stated in such terms. God is paramount, and you rise to heaven or fall to hell according to god's desire, not your own actions/will.

All of the above work well enough - probably as well as compatibilism - if you're repared to accept the basic premises.

I think the problem with all of them from a 'traditional' Free Will perspective is that they essentially equate to compatibilism, not to "Libertarian Free Will". Each boils down to the fact that given a situation 'X', a human makes a single choice - if we could repeat situation 'X' completely (100%) then we'd make the same choice. This contradicts Libertarian Free Will completely, although it seems to me that this is largely overlooked/ignored by christian writings.

Tez · 1st December 2003, 11:04 AM

Welcome sparklecat.

I have a long (and ongoing) relationship with christianity - of the evangelical/charismatic/pentecostal varieties. It is "ongoing" because my immediate family are immersed in it, and are basically in denial about my lack of enthusiasm for it (to say the least).

Essentially (for these varieties of christianity) one has to confront two fundamental tenets:

(i) Inspiration of scripture.

(ii) Personal experience/relationship with God (and that related by other believers).

Depending on the church different weighting is given each tenet - but basically one's faith is predicated in certitude regarding one or the other. Rather than examing the surface issues of doctrine and theology, I feel it's best to confront these head on.

I personally had certain religous feelings/experiences, however I always knew that they may ultimately derive from within. The possibility that scripture was only human inspired (and thus church teachings merely human mythology) took much longer for me to confront. There is little point in me addressing the specifics here - such confrontation is best predicated on one's particular level of literal interpretation of the various parts of the bible that are held dearest. Suffice to say that the journey was not easy. And it really is a journey - one that you seem to have begun. I once said to Ruby, another poster here, when she began expressing the faintest of doubts:

Ruby, the road toward apostasy is tortuous to walk, and I suspect you will walk it, as most do, somewhat erratically. People at both ends of the road will look at you and be confused as to why you're not heading toward them - from their perspective you seem to be so close. If you're like me, then at some point your mind will get to the end of the road first; your soul will still be clinging to things lying along the road. Releasing those things may take many, many years - especially where loved ones are concerned. In fact, you may well lead different people to think you're at different points on the road; this is normal. Only you will know approximately where you are.

It sums up my experience.

The only suggestion I have is that you search hard for those "essential beliefs" which, if untrue, would shake the core of your faith. Then have the courage to hold them up to skeptical enquiry. If they really are true they will survive, if not then you are better off without them...

Skeptical Greg · 1st December 2003, 11:38 AM

My best advice I have at this time, comes from my sig line...

" I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. "- Stephen Roberts

Try to really think about this.. Most believers I encounter seem to brush it off, without really considering the implications in choosing a particular God over all the others..

Why do you think the Jewish God commanded:

" Thou shalt have no other God's before me" ?

And please don't fall for the apologetic rationalization about this scripture ' not really talking about ' other God's ', but about worldly affectations, such as wealth, lust, gluttony and etc.. '
Anyone who has studied the bible in it's Hebrew context can tell you it just isn't so.. This includes fundamentalist theologins, who know they are lying if they teach otherwise.

Oh, and welcome to the JREF forums...

sparklecat · 1st December 2003, 12:20 PM

Wow, its annoying to have your computer crash after you've typed a response... anyhoo...

Loki- thanks for the info. I know which of the two I'd prefer, but my preference hardly has much to do with reality.

Like I said, its more how free will is anymore possible under Christianity than otherwise... either God picking our personality, or picking our upbringing, and, consequently, our personality in large part.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tez
The only suggestion I have is that you search hard for those "essential beliefs" which, if untrue, would shake the core of your faith. Then have the courage to hold them up to skeptical enquiry. If they really are true they will survive, if not then you are better off without them...

*nods* Thats all I really can do- and I intend to. I don't much like the idea of apostacy, but finding the truth is better.
Now if my friends over at RR would just realize this!

Diogenes- thanks, and I'll think about the quote

arcticpenguin · 1st December 2003, 12:23 PM

Welcome, sparklecat.

For me, it's down to basics. I don't waste time wondering about what God is like, or how free will fits in with a God-based world. The basic question is: is there a God? There simply is no reliable evidence of that. In fact, many of the things I was told about God were wrong. (I am a scientist, and know about the complete lack of evidence for a life force or a soul.) If there is no God, why should I waste my time on corrolaries and dependent clauses?

p.s. "You just have to believe" is not a convincing argument. That's the same reason the former president of Nigeria gives me for why I should give him my bank account info to help him get his holdings out of a foreign bank.

sparklecat · 1st December 2003, 12:33 PM

Penguin- I agree. But I also believe pretty strongly that there is a God. I left atheism because of the cosmological argument, which has since been invalidated... but I'm starting to find all these evidences of God rather useless anyway- best you can get out of them is probability. However, I have (don't laugh) experienced God in the meantime. Changes in my life and such that I can't discount very easily. And while I could propose a naturalistic explanation for them, they never can quite fit right- do you think a decision to believe some guy rose from the dead 2000 years ago is enough to turn someone's life around? Just doesn't seem very likely to me.

I know, I know, it sounds bad.

Oh, and yes, I hate the "have faith" sorts of arguments as well... I'm a bit of a skeptic

Loki · 1st December 2003, 01:40 PM

sparklecat,

Quote:

Like I said, its more how free will is anymore possible under Christianity than otherwise...

I don't think it is! Libertarian Free Will - which is what many people "instinctively" mean when they say Free Will - doesn't seem sensible/possible (to me) under an omni-god. I think that the Catholic writings agree with this, yet phrase their responses in a way that seems to indicate otherwise.

Or you could try the Franko (a rather infamous JREF poster) approach - individuals are souls formed outside the universe, the creator ("goddess") has created the universe as a sort of "proving ground" to sort out the defective souls from the good ones. Sort of like quality control. Only the good ones go on to the next level. In this scenario, you aren't making any choices at all while you're here (its a "no Free Will" scenario), but instead your intrinsic 'quality' is being tested. Presumably, once you pass quality control you get to move into an existence where you can choose. But this isn't that existence.

Quote:

However, I have (don't laugh) experienced God in the meantime.

The only think I can say to this is that "experiencing 'X'" is (a) always going to mean a lot to you, and (b) isn't uncommon. Problem is, when you take a global view it's rarely the same 'X'! See, you've experienced the evangelical god. I've had Hindus try to explain to me the unbelieveable changes that have occurred to them after they have experienced their god(s). Same for Muslims. Same for UFO/alien abductees. Same for mystics with their astral projections and 'higher self auras'. I don't doubt that you have experienced something that was profound, and life changing. I do doubt that the only possible explanation is "the christian god". The event/experience you describe is quite common - the explanation varies wildly.

Imagine for a moment that a few years ago you'd traveled to Indonesia and became interested in Islam. Do you think (a) the experience you refer to would never have happened, or (b) the experience would still have occurred, but you'd have attributed it to Allah rather than Christ? I'd suggest (b) is quite likely.

the_ignored · 1st December 2003, 03:09 PM

Well, Hi! Welcome indeed. I know it must be tough, but thinking things through on your own time is the way to go.

Except to note that no one here will try to "scare you" (is that the right word?) by saying things like "the devil is attacking you through your doubts". That just sounds like people who are afraid to think...

Even if you were to change your mind, I can assure you that you won't get that kind of treatment.

I should also note that while you're reading stuff here, you'll see a lot of posts/threads that are very hostile to RR. *Most were either started by, or contributed to by, well, me*

That's just us complaining about the mindset over there, and how so many people over there seem to have that "hold on the their beliefs no matter what" and the attacks and censorship of those who don't hold their views.

You won't find near so much of that over here. Pretty much no one has to have their posts deleted or gets banned here in comparison.

You can say what you like without fear of getting booted, or being ragged on.

We're not that bad people! If you don't believe me, you can ask "Ruby". She also used to post on RR!

I don't (and likely never will) have anything deep to say, so I'll just leave it at that.

the_ignored · 1st December 2003, 03:15 PM

I was going to say: Just take your time, sort through everything, and don't be afraid to ask questions. Others, like "Ruby" and me, have gone through the same thing you have.

Ok, NOW I'll shut up.

sparklecat · 1st December 2003, 03:51 PM

Loki, I'll answer your posta bit later

Ignored- thanks

I'm a bit upset at RR now myself, as I've had a thread locked, been warned, and been told that I was mocking God... sheesh.

Nice to meet you though anyway... should I be banned over there, you'll see lots more of me!

Justine

Mr Clingford · 1st December 2003, 03:52 PM

Hello sparklecat.

I am a Christian who has only recently joined this forum. The basis of my faith is that to the best of my knowledge and judgement I have experienced God and felt his love. I am also a thinking person.

There are many many different strands of Christianity.
I do not believe that God punished Jesus for our sins.
I do not believe the Bible is infallible.
I do not believe in a hell where people are tortured for eternity.
I do not believe that only Christians 'will be saved'. In heaven will be found atheists too, in my opinion.

Being a Christianity does not mean that you have answers, if anything, it means the opposite. I do not understand most things.

To be true to yourself you must question. Do not be afraid of 'lack of closure'. Of course the responses I might make may be different to those of an atheist!!

Lord Emsworth · 1st December 2003, 03:53 PM

Oh, hi Justine!

I'm delighted to see you here

sparklecat · 1st December 2003, 05:44 PM

Mr Clingford- thanks for the input and pm... may I ask what you do believe and why?

Emsworth, hey, nice to see you too

*reminds herself not to forget to respond to Loki*

calladus · 1st December 2003, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sparklecat
You make me sound like a Subway success story or the like

Yes, I'm a member over at Rapture Ready, and met Martin in apologetics, where we've debated back and forth for around... 6 months or so? I became a Christian two years ago this month- had all the answers and basically pushed my questions aside and took them on faith. Which is not always bad, but as more questions have come up, they have me questioning the entire belief system... Hell, free will, Biblical inspiration, and the system of sacrifice are the main issues. So I feel that I need to step back and really examine my questions from more neutral ground- and not stay away from the nonbelievers, as some have advised!

Justine

Welcome to the board Justine.

There may be some on this forum that get a little sticky about what they see as irrational belief, and as Hal has pointed out newbies to the forum sometimes take a lot of static.

Just ignore the noise and concentrate on the signal. And find your own voice.

As a deconverted Christian, I've gone through some of what you are going through. I've been reading your threads on RR - some very nice people there, and some not so nice!!

I too, pulled back from Christianity. I went to Theism, then to Agnosticism, then finally to non-belief. (I don't consider myself to be truly Atheist because I do not DIS-believe, I just no longer see a need to believe.)

I don't know if you will end up going as far as I, and maybe you will find the arguments you need to return to your faith. Either way, I hope you find what you need, and I will be happy to offer what little advice I have to help you find peace.

WinAce · 1st December 2003, 09:29 PM

Hi there.

UnrepentantSinner · 1st December 2003, 10:51 PM

Howdy Sparklecat. Any friend of Martin's is a a friend of this Forum.

(Well, and anyone on RR's poop list is probably a friend of the Forum too, but I digress...)

Make sure and swing by the Community section once in a while and add a recipie to a recipie thread or contribute to the jokes or Top Ten List threads in the Humor section. While some in the fundamentalist camp would suggest isolation from non-believers, I think those that do "go into the lions den" find the lions have many shared hobbies, beliefs (non-religious), political opinions and choice in entertainment as they do.

{shameless self-promotion}
You might also want to check out the Glossary/FAQ in my sig line
{/shameless self-promotion}

Pyrts · 1st December 2003, 10:56 PM

Hi Sparkle!!! (wave, wave, wave!)

Ah, it's much easier to speak over here.

I began to have my doubts when I realized that if my father did all the things to me that Jehovah did to everyone else, my dad would be hauled off to the mental hospital as being psychotic... and they'd try him for murder. I could just see the scenario: Dad gets offended that kids ate his M&Ms (like he couldn't make/buy more? And why did he leave them out/create it in the first place if he knew what would happen?), Dad decides that kids are evil and when they reach a certain age he locks them into a dark closet and turns on the heat so that they're uncomfortable and sick and never lets them out (dying and hell) until he decides he has a secret word (Jesus) and passes that along to some of the kids and if you've got the secret word with the right pronunciation and gestures then you can come out of the locked room (go to heaven) but if you don't then you stay in the locked room (Earth) until you reach a certain age (die) and then you go into the closet.

That's sick. It's psycho. And I'm supposed to worship THAT? No. No thank you. Not my cup of tea.

I have more of an animistic approach to the world -- or, perhaps it's a Terry Prachett-istic approach. I do believe that the gods exist as long as there are people to give that belief 'power.' I think that the psychological boost of worshippers creates situations (answered prayers.)

So I am free (and so is everyone else) to decide which god to worship (or no god, and that's fine.) But as I said before, the things I hear from the hospice workers suggest that there's an almost universal death experience of seeing loved ones and being called into the light, no matter what your faith is.

There's no way to tell if it's just a comforting hallucination or reality or something even more than that. But it is real.

And the other thing I know is that there are good and moral people all around; people of all faiths and no faith. And all in all, it's a wonderful life.

sparklecat · 1st December 2003, 11:29 PM

Loki- no, I find myself forced to the conclusion that Calvinism, at least in the weak sense, in a necessary part of Christianity. A concept I always rather hated. Of course, if I wish to keep the Bible, that has to be reconciled with God not being willing that anyone should perish, which would mean limiting his omnipotence. Technically God can't have Libertarian free will anyway though, so it may not be such a problem... just something I'll need to think on.

*nods* The other religions is a good point... but the only thing is, I spent a good number of years religion-hopping and none of them really had much of an affect on me morally. Of course, I'm not sure how much responsibility was involved in most of them either... may be different if there was.

Well now I want to test that!

sparklecat · 1st December 2003, 11:33 PM

Thanks for the welcome Calladus

I'm finding this a great experience for discovering who my friends really are actually... you've seen it over at RR you said, and its been quite an eye-opener for me. Of course, they're also scared and worried about me, so I'll cut them some slack there.

Not sure where I'll end up of course. I would like it should Christianity turn out to be true, but if my Christianity does survive, I expect it'll be in a different form at the least.

Oh... and I want answers, not peace

Though I'll take peace thrown in, certainly...

sparklecat · 1st December 2003, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WinAce
Hi there.

Hi

Its nice to meet you, my infamous friend. Oh, but I've been meaning to ask- do you remember the little debate we had in your guestbook awhile back?

sparklecat · 1st December 2003, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Howdy Sparklecat. Any friend of Martin's is a a friend of this Forum.

(Well, and anyone on RR's poop list is probably a friend of the Forum too, but I digress...)

Make sure and swing by the Community section once in a while and add a recipie to a recipie thread or contribute to the jokes or Top Ten List threads in the Humor section. While some in the fundamentalist camp would suggest isolation from non-believers, I think those that do "go into the lions den" find the lions have many shared hobbies, beliefs (non-religious), political opinions and choice in entertainment as they do.

{shameless self-promotion}
You might also want to check out the Glossary/FAQ in my sig line
{/shameless self-promotion}

Thanks lol

Figured it couldn't hurt to have Martin introduce me

But its not quite that bad with RR yet- I'm still working on mending things over there, and they do care about me I believe.

I'll do that perhaps... I can't cook and have precisely one joke I ever repeat, but we'll see. I did notice a limerick thread... I'm not too bad at those, but they're often rather dark and depressing.

Its a shared taste in entertainment (or humor) that got me in trouble over at RR, so I'm not so sure they'd see that as good!

I'll take a look at your FAQ... lol

sparklecat · 1st December 2003, 11:43 PM

Hey there Pyrts!

Wow, and there I was thinking you a liberal Christian

The things you learn... I see your point though. You've seen my thread over there... if they want to say that God is creator and therefore deal with reality as it as and accept it, fine. But the morality is a bit more in question... seems that things we find totally unjust are fine in God because might makes right. And if thats the way it is, then so be it... but a sense of justice that we supposedly got from God condemning him in our eyes? There's something a bit off there...

You know what though? You're right. It IS a wonderful life... and I'm not gonna spend it moping around or doing things I regret. Well, ok, I probably will, but I can at least try not to.

Justine

sparklecat · 1st December 2003, 11:45 PM

Triadboy- thanks, and sorry I skipped over you the first time around.

If I skip anyone else, just yell at me.

30th November 2003, 07:27 PM	#1
Martin Sceptic Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 898	An introduction I'd like to introduce you to a friend of mine from another forum. Less than a year ago, she was a fundamentalist, YEC Christian. Today, after dealing with doubts for some time, she's stepped back from Christianity so that she can examine it more carefully. Her current position is one of generic theism. She finds that it helps to discuss her doubts with both Christians and non-Christians, so I thought this would be the perfect place for her to explore these issues further. Some of the most rational, knowledgeable, generally decent human beings I've ever encountered are here, and I've learned a great deal from you, regardless of faith. I'd name names, but I always leave people out. Suffice to say, you know who you are. Now that my shamelessly gratuitous flattery has drawn your attention, I'll let Justine explain her position to you in more detail herself. She's smart, honest and willing to learn, and I'm sure that anyone who takes the time to talk to her will find the experience benefits them as much as I know it will her.
Martin Sceptic Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 898	__________________ So the Universe is not quite as you thought it was. You had better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the Universe. Isaac Asimov and Robert Silverberg, Nightfall

30th November 2003, 07:50 PM	#3
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	sparklecat, I'm not in a position to register at RR just now - is there an particular question/issue you have that won't require you to recount the entire last 6 months of discussion with Martin? Which particular variation of christianity are/were you aligned with ? (yes, it sometimes makes a very large difference)
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	__________________ (Red Dwarf Newsreader): Good evening. Here is the news on Friday the 27th of Geldof. Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read 'To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental'. .

30th November 2003, 08:04 PM	#5
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	I was kicked out of Rapture Ready for introducing factual information. I guess they weren't ready for it.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

30th November 2003, 08:08 PM	#7
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	sparklecat, Sure you don't have any serious questions to ask?!?! Working backwards... Quote: ...and how free will is even possible. Define "Free Will". Compatibilism says it's entirely possible, if it's understood (and therefore defined) correctly. If it's defined the way most christians do, then I'd say it's not sensible, and therefore not possible. Quote: ...the whole sacrifice Christ for our sins and why exactly that method was necessary- if God had to obey some sort of rule there... Well, they weren't mysins - I'm still unsure why a merciful and loving god would choose to visit the punishment (original sin) upon the children for Adam and Eve's little transgression. And do it for a few thousand generations. Since I can't come to grips with the nature of the alledged problem, I'm afraid I have little to offer as to why god would choose one form of restitution over another. Quote: ...the doctrines of Biblical inspiration and infallibility... Infallible in the sense that if something can be shown to be wrong, then it's the interpretation that failed? Or infallible in the sense that if you truly read it right, your conclusions can't be wrong? Quote: ...the necessity of Hell (in its torture for eternity form),... The simplest thought I have is that an infinite punishment for a finite 'crime' is not what I'd expect from a loving god. Of course, Catholicism is moving away from the "torture" concept nowadays, so perhaps this is a conversation that has already been rejected even by the christian mainstream?
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	__________________ (Red Dwarf Newsreader): Good evening. Here is the news on Friday the 27th of Geldof. Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read 'To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental'. .

30th November 2003, 08:15 PM	#9
Martin Sceptic Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 898	Quote: Originally posted by sparklecat lol! Got a link? All of his posts can be found here. Personally, I suspect that the reason he got kicked off was possibly more to do with the fact that he announced both his choesn username and his intention to imitate a Christian on another thread here...
Martin Sceptic Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 898	__________________ So the Universe is not quite as you thought it was. You had better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the Universe. Isaac Asimov and Robert Silverberg, Nightfall

30th November 2003, 07:36 PM	#2
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	You make me sound like a Subway success story or the like Yes, I'm a member over at Rapture Ready, and met Martin in apologetics, where we've debated back and forth for around... 6 months or so? I became a Christian two years ago this month- had all the answers and basically pushed my questions aside and took them on faith. Which is not always bad, but as more questions have come up, they have me questioning the entire belief system... Hell, free will, Biblical inspiration, and the system of sacrifice are the main issues. So I feel that I need to step back and really examine my questions from more neutral ground- and not stay away from the nonbelievers, as some have advised! I think the easiest way to explain this would be to link you to my post over at RR- you need to be a member to get into the forum, but for those who don't have membership, Martin's summary (and mine) aren't too bad- and of course you can ask me any questions you'd like Oh, you'll need to see the continuation at the second link, as they locked the first thread. http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120181 http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120357 Justine

30th November 2003, 07:54 PM	#4
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Version- as Martin said, rather fundamentalist. Evangelical. As for my questions... the necessity of Hell (in its torture for eternity form), the doctrines of Biblical inspiration and infallibility, the whole sacrifice Christ for our sins and why exactly that method was necessary- if God had to obey some sort of rule there, and how free will is even possible.

30th November 2003, 08:07 PM	#6
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Welcome sparklecat.

30th November 2003, 08:10 PM	#8
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Quote: Originally posted by c4ts I was kicked out of Rapture Ready for introducing factual information. I guess they weren't ready for it. lol! Got a link?

30th November 2003, 08:18 PM	#10
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Quote: Originally posted by Loki sparklecat, Sure you don't have any serious questions to ask?!?! Working backwards... Define "Free Will". Compatibilism says it's entirely possible, if it's understood (and therefore defined) correctly. If it's defined the way most christians do, then I'd say it's not sensible, and therefore not possible. Well, they weren't mysins - I'm still unsure why a merciful and loving god would choose to visit the punishment (original sin) upon the children for Adam and Eve's little transgression. And do it for a few thousand generations. Since I can't come to grips with the nature of the alledged problem, I'm afraid I have little to offer as to why god would choose one form of restitution over another. Infallible in the sense that if something can be shown to be wrong, then it's the interpretation that failed? Or infallible in the sense that if you truly read it right, your conclusions can't be wrong? The simplest thought I have is that an infinite punishment for a finite 'crime' is not what I'd expect from a loving god. Of course, Catholicism is moving away from the "torture" concept nowadays, so perhaps this is a conversation that has already been rejected even by the christian mainstream? Oh, they're serious enough to me Free will in that we actually can choose or reject God for some reason not predetermined by him... either our personality which is shaped by our upbringing, or the soul which he supposedly designs as well leads us to make that decision- where's the freedom there? And following that, where's the responsbility? Well, I have no problem with the problem, as I've sinned myself as well Infallible in the sense that it doesn't contain obvious errors would work fine. Sure, but the torture is rather Biblical... so if I want to accept Christianity, it would probably be necessary for me to accept that as well. But I take your point.

30th November 2003, 08:23 PM	#11
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Quote: Originally posted by Martin Personally, I suspect that the reason he got kicked off was possibly more to do with the fact that he announced both his choesn username and his intention to imitate a Christian on another thread here... That would do it, assuming lurkers...

30th November 2003, 08:28 PM	#12
Some Friggin Guy Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 860	Sparkle, welcome. As for your questions, I can only tell you how I view things as a former Christian, myself. Essentially, I determined through a great deal of soul searching and some tremendous personal conflicts with my church that the idea of a rational god made no sense to me. As far as I was able to put together, the concept of god was that he was an all knowing, all-loving, all powerful being who allowed humanity to do things he never intended us to do, couldn't control us except through the fear of eternal punishment. To me, that meant he was not all knowing, all loving or all powerful. Also, I found the universe as I had experienced it to be far to chaotic to have been created by any consiousness and too many random and cruel things occured. This meant that god would have been cruel and capriscious. From there, I began to research histories of religions, including christianity and found major holes in the ohilosophies and traditions, as well as things that science proved totally false. Finally, I began cross-referencing (no pun intended) christianity with other religions and found that it had little or no original ideas in it. Most traditions in the christian churches I had dealt with were stolen from earlier, pagan religions. At that point, I decided that there could not, in all probability, actually be a god. During my searching, I found the basic philosophies of Zen Buddhism, which I practice as a way of keeping my mind focussed, but I do not adhere to the "religious" aspects of it. If you are curious about some of the concepts stolen by christianity, I suggest you search on the net for Mithras, Zoroastrianism, Gilgamesh and Hamurabi for a start. thers in this forum can give you a great deal more to think about and research.
Some Friggin Guy Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 860	__________________ You think, therefore I am. "There is no hope for humanity. Reason is dead and we dance on the corpse. Tra la la la la! " - c4ts "What is the meaning of life? Monkey!" - c4ts

30th November 2003, 09:22 PM	#13
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Thanks SFG I found your post interesting. I'll look up the groups you named.

30th November 2003, 09:32 PM	#14
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	sparklecat, Regarding free will, I'll try to post a bit later on a few of possible theist replies. It sounds like you've already decided that Free Will to choose/reject Jesus isn't possible given an Evangelical kinda god. Are you here looking for someone to convince you otherwise, or are you hoping to find agreement/validation for your opinion????
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	__________________ (Red Dwarf Newsreader): Good evening. Here is the news on Friday the 27th of Geldof. Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read 'To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental'. .

30th November 2003, 09:46 PM	#15
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029	Hi Sparklecat, welcome to the forum ! Just a little about me and my time with RaptureReady... I registered under the name "Vendyokus". I was banned although I did not violate any rules (I'm assuming someone from the RaptureReady boards alerted the admins that someone from the evil JREF boards had registered...). I probably made 10 or 15 posts, you can search them on RaptureReady and give them a read (I dont know if they've been deleted or edited...). Billiefan2000 sometimes posts here, I worry about the poor kid sometimes. There was another member by the name of "Funkenstein" who went through the same situation you are going through right now. Here started this thread: A breath of fresh air. In the mean time, I hope you enjoy it here .
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029

30th November 2003, 10:45 PM	#16
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Quote: Originally posted by Loki sparklecat, Regarding free will, I'll try to post a bit later on a few of possible theist replies. It sounds like you've already decided that Free Will to choose/reject Jesus isn't possible given an Evangelical kinda god. Are you here looking for someone to convince you otherwise, or are you hoping to find agreement/validation for your opinion???? Good question lol I would like to be convinced otherwise I think. Not necessarily looking for it here... but I would like a solution. Not just an evangelical God... any god. is biased towards Christianity

30th November 2003, 10:46 PM	#17
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Quote: Originally posted by Yahweh stuff First off, thanks Yeah, I actually responded to you as Vendyokus a time or two I think

1st December 2003, 02:41 AM	#18
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	sparklecat, A little info on Free Will and christian (well, mostly Catholic) theology... There are (at least) two main Catholic schools of thought on Free Will,and the interaction with god's knowledge/power/desires. Trying to keep it simple, human Free Will is either : (a) The result of the choices we make after god has set our lives on a given course. God choose this course through the knowledge of what your choices will be. Thus the universe proceeds according to god's plan/desires, yet each of us gets to make a genuine choice in each situation we face in life. or : (b) The result of the fact that god knows what our will would do in any given situation (that is, he can see the "potential futures"), and that he then brings about the situations that he desires and in which we make our free choice. The choice is still ours, freely made in the given situation - it's just that god gets to pick the situations he wants after viewing all possible alternatives. Again, the universe proceeds according to god's plan/desires, yet each of us gets to make a genuine choice in each situation we find ourselves in. The protestants (basically) have a history of rejecting Free Will, although it's not really stated in such terms. God is paramount, and you rise to heaven or fall to hell according to god's desire, not your own actions/will. All of the above work well enough - probably as well as compatibilism - if you're repared to accept the basic premises. I think the problem with all of them from a 'traditional' Free Will perspective is that they essentially equate to compatibilism, not to "Libertarian Free Will". Each boils down to the fact that given a situation 'X', a human makes a single choice - if we could repeat situation 'X' completely (100%) then we'd make the same choice. This contradicts Libertarian Free Will completely, although it seems to me that this is largely overlooked/ignored by christian writings.
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	__________________ (Red Dwarf Newsreader): Good evening. Here is the news on Friday the 27th of Geldof. Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read 'To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental'. .

1st December 2003, 11:04 AM	#19
Tez Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: London Posts: 1,104	Welcome sparklecat. I have a long (and ongoing) relationship with christianity - of the evangelical/charismatic/pentecostal varieties. It is "ongoing" because my immediate family are immersed in it, and are basically in denial about my lack of enthusiasm for it (to say the least). Essentially (for these varieties of christianity) one has to confront two fundamental tenets: (i) Inspiration of scripture. (ii) Personal experience/relationship with God (and that related by other believers). Depending on the church different weighting is given each tenet - but basically one's faith is predicated in certitude regarding one or the other. Rather than examing the surface issues of doctrine and theology, I feel it's best to confront these head on. I personally had certain religous feelings/experiences, however I always knew that they may ultimately derive from within. The possibility that scripture was only human inspired (and thus church teachings merely human mythology) took much longer for me to confront. There is little point in me addressing the specifics here - such confrontation is best predicated on one's particular level of literal interpretation of the various parts of the bible that are held dearest. Suffice to say that the journey was not easy. And it really is a journey - one that you seem to have begun. I once said to Ruby, another poster here, when she began expressing the faintest of doubts: Ruby, the road toward apostasy is tortuous to walk, and I suspect you will walk it, as most do, somewhat erratically. People at both ends of the road will look at you and be confused as to why you're not heading toward them - from their perspective you seem to be so close. If you're like me, then at some point your mind will get to the end of the road first; your soul will still be clinging to things lying along the road. Releasing those things may take many, many years - especially where loved ones are concerned. In fact, you may well lead different people to think you're at different points on the road; this is normal. Only you will know approximately where you are. It sums up my experience. The only suggestion I have is that you search hard for those "essential beliefs" which, if untrue, would shake the core of your faith. Then have the courage to hold them up to skeptical enquiry. If they really are true they will survive, if not then you are better off without them...
	__________________ "There's two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” --Enrico Fermi www.physicsnerd.com

1st December 2003, 11:38 AM	#20
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,873	My best advice I have at this time, comes from my sig line... " I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. "- Stephen Roberts Try to really think about this.. Most believers I encounter seem to brush it off, without really considering the implications in choosing a particular God over all the others.. Why do you think the Jewish God commanded: " Thou shalt have no other God's before me" ? And please don't fall for the apologetic rationalization about this scripture ' not really talking about ' other God's ', but about worldly affectations, such as wealth, lust, gluttony and etc.. ' Anyone who has studied the bible in it's Hebrew context can tell you it just isn't so.. This includes fundamentalist theologins, who know they are lying if they teach otherwise. Oh, and welcome to the JREF forums...
	__________________ " Somewhere between Jesus dying on the cross, and a giant bunny hiding eggs,there seems to be a gap in information. " Stan - Southpark Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

1st December 2003, 12:20 PM	#21
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Wow, its annoying to have your computer crash after you've typed a response... anyhoo... Loki- thanks for the info. I know which of the two I'd prefer, but my preference hardly has much to do with reality. Like I said, its more how free will is anymore possible under Christianity than otherwise... either God picking our personality, or picking our upbringing, and, consequently, our personality in large part. Quote: Originally posted by Tez The only suggestion I have is that you search hard for those "essential beliefs" which, if untrue, would shake the core of your faith. Then have the courage to hold them up to skeptical enquiry. If they really are true they will survive, if not then you are better off without them... nods Thats all I really can do- and I intend to. I don't much like the idea of apostacy, but finding the truth is better. Now if my friends over at RR would just realize this! Diogenes- thanks, and I'll think about the quote

1st December 2003, 12:23 PM	#22
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Welcome, sparklecat. For me, it's down to basics. I don't waste time wondering about what God is like, or how free will fits in with a God-based world. The basic question is: is there a God? There simply is no reliable evidence of that. In fact, many of the things I was told about God were wrong. (I am a scientist, and know about the complete lack of evidence for a life force or a soul.) If there is no God, why should I waste my time on corrolaries and dependent clauses? p.s. "You just have to believe" is not a convincing argument. That's the same reason the former president of Nigeria gives me for why I should give him my bank account info to help him get his holdings out of a foreign bank.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

1st December 2003, 12:33 PM	#23
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Penguin- I agree. But I also believe pretty strongly that there is a God. I left atheism because of the cosmological argument, which has since been invalidated... but I'm starting to find all these evidences of God rather useless anyway- best you can get out of them is probability. However, I have (don't laugh) experienced God in the meantime. Changes in my life and such that I can't discount very easily. And while I could propose a naturalistic explanation for them, they never can quite fit right- do you think a decision to believe some guy rose from the dead 2000 years ago is enough to turn someone's life around? Just doesn't seem very likely to me. I know, I know, it sounds bad. Oh, and yes, I hate the "have faith" sorts of arguments as well... I'm a bit of a skeptic

1st December 2003, 01:40 PM	#24
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	sparklecat, Quote: Like I said, its more how free will is anymore possible under Christianity than otherwise... I don't think it is! Libertarian Free Will - which is what many people "instinctively" mean when they say Free Will - doesn't seem sensible/possible (to me) under an omni-god. I think that the Catholic writings agree with this, yet phrase their responses in a way that seems to indicate otherwise. Or you could try the Franko (a rather infamous JREF poster) approach - individuals are souls formed outside the universe, the creator ("goddess") has created the universe as a sort of "proving ground" to sort out the defective souls from the good ones. Sort of like quality control. Only the good ones go on to the next level. In this scenario, you aren't making any choices at all while you're here (its a "no Free Will" scenario), but instead your intrinsic 'quality' is being tested. Presumably, once you pass quality control you get to move into an existence where you can choose. But this isn't that existence. Quote: However, I have (don't laugh) experienced God in the meantime. The only think I can say to this is that "experiencing 'X'" is (a) always going to mean a lot to you, and (b) isn't uncommon. Problem is, when you take a global view it's rarely the same 'X'! See, you've experienced the evangelical god. I've had Hindus try to explain to me the unbelieveable changes that have occurred to them after they have experienced their god(s). Same for Muslims. Same for UFO/alien abductees. Same for mystics with their astral projections and 'higher self auras'. I don't doubt that you have experienced something that was profound, and life changing. I do doubt that the only possible explanation is "the christian god". The event/experience you describe is quite common - the explanation varies wildly. Imagine for a moment that a few years ago you'd traveled to Indonesia and became interested in Islam. Do you think (a) the experience you refer to would never have happened, or (b) the experience would still have occurred, but you'd have attributed it to Allah rather than Christ? I'd suggest (b) is quite likely.
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	__________________ (Red Dwarf Newsreader): Good evening. Here is the news on Friday the 27th of Geldof. Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read 'To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental'. .

1st December 2003, 03:09 PM	#25
the_ignored Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 254	Well, Hi! Welcome indeed. I know it must be tough, but thinking things through on your own time is the way to go. Except to note that no one here will try to "scare you" (is that the right word?) by saying things like "the devil is attacking you through your doubts". That just sounds like people who are afraid to think... Even if you were to change your mind, I can assure you that you won't get that kind of treatment. I should also note that while you're reading stuff here, you'll see a lot of posts/threads that are very hostile to RR. Most were either started by, or contributed to by, well, me That's just us complaining about the mindset over there, and how so many people over there seem to have that "hold on the their beliefs no matter what" and the attacks and censorship of those who don't hold their views. You won't find near so much of that over here. Pretty much no one has to have their posts deleted or gets banned here in comparison. You can say what you like without fear of getting booted, or being ragged on. We're not that bad people! If you don't believe me, you can ask "Ruby". She also used to post on RR! I don't (and likely never will) have anything deep to say, so I'll just leave it at that.
	__________________ Lost: white ferret, answers to ‘Timothy’, intelligent, ex-mage’s familiar. May be temperamental. Very important that he be found. Chronic liar. 300gp finder’s fee. Hive Ward, 23 by the Ditch---We’ll see you coming, hold the ferret overhead.

1st December 2003, 03:15 PM	#26
the_ignored Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 254	I was going to say: Just take your time, sort through everything, and don't be afraid to ask questions. Others, like "Ruby" and me, have gone through the same thing you have. Ok, NOW I'll shut up.
	__________________ Lost: white ferret, answers to ‘Timothy’, intelligent, ex-mage’s familiar. May be temperamental. Very important that he be found. Chronic liar. 300gp finder’s fee. Hive Ward, 23 by the Ditch---We’ll see you coming, hold the ferret overhead.

1st December 2003, 03:51 PM	#27
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Loki, I'll answer your posta bit later Ignored- thanks I'm a bit upset at RR now myself, as I've had a thread locked, been warned, and been told that I was mocking God... sheesh. Nice to meet you though anyway... should I be banned over there, you'll see lots more of me! Justine

1st December 2003, 03:52 PM	#28
Mr Clingford Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: UK Posts: 1,691	Hello sparklecat. I am a Christian who has only recently joined this forum. The basis of my faith is that to the best of my knowledge and judgement I have experienced God and felt his love. I am also a thinking person. There are many many different strands of Christianity. I do not believe that God punished Jesus for our sins. I do not believe the Bible is infallible. I do not believe in a hell where people are tortured for eternity. I do not believe that only Christians 'will be saved'. In heaven will be found atheists too, in my opinion. Being a Christianity does not mean that you have answers, if anything, it means the opposite. I do not understand most things. To be true to yourself you must question. Do not be afraid of 'lack of closure'. Of course the responses I might make may be different to those of an atheist!!

1st December 2003, 03:53 PM	#29
Lord Emsworth Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Through the Cables and the Underground ... Posts: 2,827	Oh, hi Justine! I'm delighted to see you here

1st December 2003, 05:44 PM	#30
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Mr Clingford- thanks for the input and pm... may I ask what you do believe and why? Emsworth, hey, nice to see you too reminds herself not to forget to respond to Loki

1st December 2003, 08:18 PM	#31
calladus Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Fresno, CA Posts: 331	Quote: Originally posted by sparklecat You make me sound like a Subway success story or the like Yes, I'm a member over at Rapture Ready, and met Martin in apologetics, where we've debated back and forth for around... 6 months or so? I became a Christian two years ago this month- had all the answers and basically pushed my questions aside and took them on faith. Which is not always bad, but as more questions have come up, they have me questioning the entire belief system... Hell, free will, Biblical inspiration, and the system of sacrifice are the main issues. So I feel that I need to step back and really examine my questions from more neutral ground- and not stay away from the nonbelievers, as some have advised! Justine Welcome to the board Justine. There may be some on this forum that get a little sticky about what they see as irrational belief, and as Hal has pointed out newbies to the forum sometimes take a lot of static. Just ignore the noise and concentrate on the signal. And find your own voice. As a deconverted Christian, I've gone through some of what you are going through. I've been reading your threads on RR - some very nice people there, and some not so nice!! I too, pulled back from Christianity. I went to Theism, then to Agnosticism, then finally to non-belief. (I don't consider myself to be truly Atheist because I do not DIS-believe, I just no longer see a need to believe.) I don't know if you will end up going as far as I, and maybe you will find the arguments you need to return to your faith. Either way, I hope you find what you need, and I will be happy to offer what little advice I have to help you find peace.
	__________________ Calladus

1st December 2003, 09:29 PM	#32
WinAce Scholar Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 74	Hi there.
WinAce Scholar Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 74	__________________ Save-Allan.org: Because dying kinda sucks, when you think about it.

1st December 2003, 10:51 PM	#33
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,361	Howdy Sparklecat. Any friend of Martin's is a a friend of this Forum. (Well, and anyone on RR's poop list is probably a friend of the Forum too, but I digress...) Make sure and swing by the Community section once in a while and add a recipie to a recipie thread or contribute to the jokes or Top Ten List threads in the Humor section. While some in the fundamentalist camp would suggest isolation from non-believers, I think those that do "go into the lions den" find the lions have many shared hobbies, beliefs (non-religious), political opinions and choice in entertainment as they do. {shameless self-promotion} You might also want to check out the Glossary/FAQ in my sig line {/shameless self-promotion}
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

1st December 2003, 10:56 PM	#34
Pyrts Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 216	Hi Sparkle!!! (wave, wave, wave!) Ah, it's much easier to speak over here. I began to have my doubts when I realized that if my father did all the things to me that Jehovah did to everyone else, my dad would be hauled off to the mental hospital as being psychotic... and they'd try him for murder. I could just see the scenario: Dad gets offended that kids ate his M&Ms (like he couldn't make/buy more? And why did he leave them out/create it in the first place if he knew what would happen?), Dad decides that kids are evil and when they reach a certain age he locks them into a dark closet and turns on the heat so that they're uncomfortable and sick and never lets them out (dying and hell) until he decides he has a secret word (Jesus) and passes that along to some of the kids and if you've got the secret word with the right pronunciation and gestures then you can come out of the locked room (go to heaven) but if you don't then you stay in the locked room (Earth) until you reach a certain age (die) and then you go into the closet. That's sick. It's psycho. And I'm supposed to worship THAT? No. No thank you. Not my cup of tea. I have more of an animistic approach to the world -- or, perhaps it's a Terry Prachett-istic approach. I do believe that the gods exist as long as there are people to give that belief 'power.' I think that the psychological boost of worshippers creates situations (answered prayers.) So I am free (and so is everyone else) to decide which god to worship (or no god, and that's fine.) But as I said before, the things I hear from the hospice workers suggest that there's an almost universal death experience of seeing loved ones and being called into the light, no matter what your faith is. There's no way to tell if it's just a comforting hallucination or reality or something even more than that. But it is real. And the other thing I know is that there are good and moral people all around; people of all faiths and no faith. And all in all, it's a wonderful life.
Pyrts Thinker Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 216

1st December 2003, 11:29 PM	#35
sparklecat Muse Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 741	Loki- no, I find myself forced to the conclusion that Calvinism, at least in the weak sense, in a necessary part of Christianity. A concept I always rather hated. Of course, if I wish to keep the Bible, that has to be reconciled with God not being willing that anyone should perish, which would mean limiting his omnipotence. Technically God can't have Libertarian free will anyway though, so it may not be such a problem... just something I'll need to think on. nods The other religions is a good point... but the only thing is, I spent a good number of years religion-hopping and none of them really had much of an affect on me morally. Of course, I'm not sure how much responsibility was involved in most of them either... may be different if there was. Well now I want to test that!