Drug death statistics

Zeuzzz · 29th May 2009, 11:27 AM

Stumbled across this, which I found interesting.

http://www.thedea.org/statistics.html

Quote:

The death rate for MDMA, assuming that there really were about 60 deaths directly caused by MDMA in 2000, would be roughly 2 in 100,000 users. The death rate from smoking, by contrast, is on the order of 400 per 100,000 users. Even alcohol, America's official "it's not really a drug" drug, nets about 50 deaths per 100,000 users each year:[3]

[.....]

[3] Death numbers are based on 'rough justice': The US Centers for Disease Control reports over 100,000 alcohol related deaths per year, with close to 200 million Americans using alcohol. CDC also reports over 400,000 smoking related deaths per year out of about 100 million smokers. The 'ecstasy related' drug deaths number is based on an assumption of about 60 deaths (in all probability there were only a handfull of purely 'ecstasy' deaths) out of a user population of about 3 million (based on the 2000 National Household Survey on Drug Abuse Statistics, conducted by SAMHSA.)

Think that this is an accurate representation? Or are the figures unreliable in some way? Would be nice to see some published figures in a science journal. If true, its quite outstanding really when you think about it. The drug MDMA is illegal everywhere in the world and causes on average 2 deaths in every 100,000 users, yet Alcohol is legal and actually pushed and mass marketed around the whole world to the general population and causes 40 deaths per 100,000 users.

And tobacco is even worse.

Zeuzzz · 29th May 2009, 11:28 AM

Anyone know of any comprehensive published paper that shows the number of deaths per n users of various drugs?

Wolrab · 29th May 2009, 03:16 PM

Over the years, this topic has interested me. Recently there was an ad on the radio stating that there are more ED visits caused by prescription drug abuse than caused by heroin and marijuana combined. It sounds pretty scary if you don't dig deeper.

I just found this site with minimal effort. I don't know the veracity of the claims but I wouldn't be too surprised to find it correct.
http://www.briancbennett.com/charts/dawn/ED-trends.htm

I remember Dr. Dean Edell asking if you would go out and purchase drugs if they were all made legal. I just can't see everyday Joe's deciding to shoot up just because it is legal. Everything is available if one sets their minds on getting it.

Wolrab · 29th May 2009, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

Anyone know of any comprehensive published paper that shows the number of deaths per n users of various drugs?

The link I linked above has stats up the wazoo. Again I can't vouch for veracity.
I would be suspect of any official stats because of the government's need to justify their policies. (EEK! I'm a conspiracy nut!)

Axiom_Blade · 29th May 2009, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Wolrab

I would be suspect of any official stats because of the government's need to justify their policies. (EEK! I'm a conspiracy nut!)

Not really. The government has lied in the past. However, their latest policy regarding illicit drugs appears to be slanting the truth, not outright lying. They play fast-and-loose with the facts. (A simple example of this is highlighting and exaggerating all of the negative effects of a target drug, while remaining silent on the drug's positive effects.) As always, it's a good idea to check your sources. I find the Erowid.org website very helpful.

MDMA is, of course, not alone here. There aren't any deaths from LSD, or psilocybin mushrooms, or cannabis; yet they're all ridiculously illegal. You can get put away for 20 years to life, just for producing and distributing LSD.

Most of our current drug prohibition laws are a result of a culture war that started in the 60s.

Ziggurat · 29th May 2009, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

Think that this is an accurate representation? Or are the figures unreliable in some way? Would be nice to see some published figures in a science journal. If true, its quite outstanding really when you think about it. The drug MDMA is illegal everywhere in the world and causes on average 2 deaths in every 100,000 users, yet Alcohol is legal and actually pushed and mass marketed around the whole world to the general population and causes 40 deaths per 100,000 users.

And tobacco is even worse.

The stats might be true, but they're also fairly meaningless. Particularly in the case of cigarettes, both the usage patterns and the primary fatality mechanism is so different (daily use vs. occasional weekend raves, long-term heart and lung disease vs. acute dehydration) that the comparison just doesn't have any significance. Plus, of course, the legality or illegality of a drug isn't just (or even mostly) a function of its potential lethality.

BenBurch · 29th May 2009, 08:02 PM

Marijuana is mostly harmless, yet the State sees fit to destroy people's lives over their use, growing, or selling of it.

I used to think sense would prevail, but it never will.

Axiom_Blade · 30th May 2009, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Marijuana is mostly harmless, yet the State sees fit to destroy people's lives over their use, growing, or selling of it.

I used to think sense would prevail, but it never will.

Well, many states have medical cannabis laws, which is a big step forward, and many cities have taken the step of making it a "lowest priority". So there's been slow progress. The reason for this is its ubiquity: it's relatively easy to grow, non-addictive, and has pleasant effects for most users.

Hallucinogens, though, are a whole other mess. You have to have specialized training to make many of them, and the effects aren't always pleasant, and can even be downright disturbing. As a result, there's much less push for legalization.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Plus, of course, the legality or illegality of a drug isn't just (or even mostly) a function of its potential lethality.

I thought that was the whole point. If there's no harm, why make it illegal?
That's what is used to determine if a drug gets prescription-only, or over-the-counter status, right?

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

The drug MDMA is illegal everywhere in the world and causes on average 2 deaths in every 100,000 users, yet Alcohol is legal and actually pushed and mass marketed around the whole world to the general population and causes 40 deaths per 100,000 users.

When speaking of MDMA deaths, it's worth noting that some casualties weren't a direct result of the drug. For instance, one girl's death was attributed to MDMA, but it came out later that she actually died from hyponatremia (water intoxication). Some users, worried about dehydration, overcompensate and wind up drinking far too much water. You have to balance out your body's salts. It's bizarre to think that a bowl of pretzels could've saved this girl's life. Of course, her parents were all over the TV talk shows talking about how Ecstasy killed their daughter. Education is a big issue here.

Dancing David · 30th May 2009, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

Anyone know of any comprehensive published paper that shows the number of deaths per n users of various drugs?

Well Zeuzzz, here is the issue, death statistics collection.

Many deaths do not have an autopsy, some (a large percentage) do not have a toxicology. Given the nature of illicit and abused legal drugs you are not going to get an accurate sample.

Then there is the whole 'cause of death' issue, which is commonly part of death certificates. Often unless there is an inquest it is not very elaborate. So it might just say "cardio-vascular event' or some such. It might not say CVE due to methamphetamine use. Or auto accident as opposed to ‘auto accident secondary to alcohol use’.

Then there is the issue of hiding, suicide is often not recorded as suicide, for example.

Ziggurat · 30th May 2009, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade

I thought that was the whole point. If there's no harm, why make it illegal?

Lethality is not the only form of harm. I'm not much of a fan of current drug policy, but dishonest arguments won't work to change them, and not acknowledging the other forms of harm drugs do (which can be considerable) is dishonest.

Quote:

That's what is used to determine if a drug gets prescription-only, or over-the-counter status, right?

That is an entirely separate issue, but no, I don't think potential lethality is the only difference between OTC and prescription.

BenBurch · 30th May 2009, 01:11 PM

I think I would also make an exception on Stropharia Cubensis and related species, Axiom Blade, just because you DON'T need to worry about synthesis and no home chemist is going to make something that isn't QUITE the target drug and maim people (and this does happen.) And don't ask me how I know this, but home cultivation is pretty simple if you have a pressure canner.

Dancing David · 30th May 2009, 08:12 PM

I would not myself, it takes a really clean practice and following the rules as well. But I do know someone who has done so, many times.
I also avoid serotonergic hallucinogens. It is better for me to take Zoloft. No panic attacks (no buzz either).

Zeuzzz · 31st May 2009, 09:24 AM

Best avoid MDMA then. SSRI's completely blunt its effects. My current breif citalopram regimen means I cant use MDMA for another three months till I've fully tapered. But considering I only use it once or twice yearly, its not gonna make that much difference anyway. Although MDMA is not really a hallucinogen at all, you dont actually see things or hallucinate. Just makes you very 'loved up', and surrounds everything you think of in an empathogenic glow, thus why its proven so efficacious for curing people with PTSD and people with traumatic pasts with lots of bad memories. I only use it for the theraputic aspects really, not recreationally. Its like a truth serum, gives you unrivalled powers of truthful self introspection that enable you to look at yourself from a different perspective and see what actions will make you happier. Its like an instantly acting breif but powerful SSRI, to an extent.

The main downside to it is the comedown, but this can be combatted with serotonin precursors like 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP). And you've got all the other uneducated idiots that use it more frequently and in higher dosages than the clinical studies have shown are perfectly safe, and so make all the scary news headlines. Plus, the fact its illegal and thus is more likely to contain contaminants is a bummer, unless you clean it with a simple acetone wash or test it with a marquis reagent.

MDMA is to SSRI's what Amineptine is to tricyclic antidepressants.

Zeuzzz · 31st May 2009, 09:29 AM

Anyone know the number of deaths per n number of users of aspirin or paracetemol? Probably very low, but would be interesting to see.

Zeuzzz · 31st May 2009, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Then there is the whole 'cause of death' issue, which is commonly part of death certificates. Often unless there is an inquest it is not very elaborate. So it might just say "cardio-vascular event' or some such. It might not say CVE due to methamphetamine use. Or auto accident as opposed to ‘auto accident secondary to alcohol use’.

Thats what I thought. If someone jumps off a bride a day after doing acid did they commit suicide? Did the acid kill them? Did the impact kill them? What would get put on the autopsy? Hard to say. Same goes for every drug I suppose, so you'd expect them to roughly average out.

right?

Monketey Ghost · 31st May 2009, 09:47 AM

I can tellya, the ER where I work sees many heroin cases, but more pharmaceuticals. Trouble is, many pts. come in with a cocktail of many things in their system.

And the ignorance of what they're taking disturbs me, especially now in this age of the interwebs, where one can look up information about the drug before taking it. Many pts. cannot relate what it was that they even took, and tests are needed to reveal the info before actual treatment can begin.

Lately kids are coming in claiming to have taken "methadrone", which is variously claimed to be from China and Japan, and kids get it in tabs which they crush and snort. They wig right the **** out.

Monketey Ghost · 31st May 2009, 09:49 AM

Also I should say many of the suicides we see are kids who took a boatload of Tylenol. Never ever OD Tylenol, it won't kill you but you'll wish it had. If any of you have angst-ridden teenagers, with a history of attempts or spoken ideations, pass that on in a gentle, nonsuggestive way.

Zeuzzz · 31st May 2009, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0

Lately kids are coming in claiming to have taken "methadrone", which is variously claimed to be from China and Japan, and kids get it in tabs which they crush and snort. They wig right the **** out.

I suspect your talking about mephedrone, or 4-Methylmethcathinone. The fact that its a beta ketone analogue of methcathinone and legal nearly world wide means that its popularity has expolded recently. Despite there being no studies on it at all in the literature. Meph is to methcathinone what methylone is to MDMA (methylone being the beta-ketone analogue of MDMA, and also sold in many countries as a designer drug). But methylone has been studied quite a lot and has been around for many years and has proven much safer in trials, mephedrone is still completely unstudied. Not one paper. Its sold in many legal highs party pills. I've tried it once (personally in tiny amounts, <100mg) with some friends at uni, its similar to MDMA but with more stimulating properties. But I'm staying clear of that one until some studies are done. People have reported some very nasty side effects recently from using it too much on erowid. I've seen people doing silly amounts of it nearly daily (grams of the stuff), and they haven't died, theres been just one death I think out of hundreds of thousands of users, but no one knows the long term effects. So definately best to avoid.

BenBurch · 31st May 2009, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0

Also I should say many of the suicides we see are kids who took a boatload of Tylenol. Never ever OD Tylenol, it won't kill you but you'll wish it had. If any of you have angst-ridden teenagers, with a history of attempts or spoken ideations, pass that on in a gentle, nonsuggestive way.

So, in your ER, how many patients have you had to treat for Marijuana or Hashish overdose?

Zeuzzz · 31st May 2009, 10:23 AM

I'd like to pre-empt and say that there have been loads. But not one has ever resulted in a fatality in history, only people thinking they might die.

BenBurch · 31st May 2009, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

I'd like to pre-empt and say that there have been loads. But not one has ever resulted in a fatality in history, only people thinking they might die.

True, but those aren't actual ODs.

Dancing David · 31st May 2009, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

Anyone know the number of deaths per n number of users of aspirin or paracetemol? Probably very low, but would be interesting to see.

Actually they are bad drugs, when used to commit suicide.

You wake up and say "Wow, i am alive", then you die from painful liver failure two weeks later.

Dancing David · 31st May 2009, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0

I can tellya, the ER where I work sees many heroin cases, but more pharmaceuticals. Trouble is, many pts. come in with a cocktail of many things in their system.

And the ignorance of what they're taking disturbs me, especially now in this age of the interwebs, where one can look up information about the drug before taking it. Many pts. cannot relate what it was that they even took, and tests are needed to reveal the info before actual treatment can begin.

Lately kids are coming in claiming to have taken "methadrone", which is variously claimed to be from China and Japan, and kids get it in tabs which they crush and snort. They wig right the **** out.

I knew some people who died from the tylenol thing (two former clients), I forget what this one girl took in the ED, I think it was darvoset or something, she was really nauseous. To say the least she was miserable.

The scary one was this guy who would huff paint thinner.

(I am not a doctor, I was a mental health screener.)

Dancing David · 31st May 2009, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

Best avoid MDMA then. SSRI's completely blunt its effects. My current breif citalopram regimen means I cant use MDMA for another three months till I've fully tapered. But considering I only use it once or twice yearly, its not gonna make that much difference anyway. Although MDMA is not really a hallucinogen at all, you dont actually see things or hallucinate. Just makes you very 'loved up', and surrounds everything you think of in an empathogenic glow, thus why its proven so efficacious for curing people with PTSD and people with traumatic pasts with lots of bad memories. I only use it for the theraputic aspects really, not recreationally. Its like a truth serum, gives you unrivalled powers of truthful self introspection that enable you to look at yourself from a different perspective and see what actions will make you happier. Its like an instantly acting breif but powerful SSRI, to an extent.

The main downside to it is the comedown, but this can be combatted with serotonin precursors like 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP). And you've got all the other uneducated idiots that use it more frequently and in higher dosages than the clinical studies have shown are perfectly safe, and so make all the scary news headlines. Plus, the fact its illegal and thus is more likely to contain contaminants is a bummer, unless you clean it with a simple acetone wash or test it with a marquis reagent.

MDMA is to SSRI's what Amineptine is to tricyclic antidepressants.

No, I avoid any serotonergic hallucinogens. I am prone to addiction to them and then panic attacks. I avoid them, not seek them out. Period.

Zeuzzz · 31st May 2009, 12:00 PM

If thats your rule, then stick to it. You'd know better than I would about you... of course.

Zeuzzz · 31st May 2009, 12:12 PM

Then again I wouldn't call MDMA a hallucinogen at all, most people call it a slightly stimulating empathogen. Its a very odd mix, and a very unique chemical in its effects. Or I think that Nichols, Shulgin et al coined the term entactogen in the literature to distinguish it from normal hallucinogens.

As much as i hate quoting wiki, I think this article is quite respectable:

Quote:

The terms empathogen and entactogen are used to describe a class of psychoactive drugs that produce distinctive emotional and social effects similar to those of MDMA ("Ecstasy"). Putative members of this class include MDMA, MDA, MDEA, MBDB, and AET, among others. The chemical structure of most entactogens contains a substituted amphetamine core, and most belong to the phenethylamine class of psychoactive drugs. When referring to MDMA and its counterparts, the term 'MDxx' is often used with the exception of MDPV. Entactogens are often incorrectly referred to as major hallucinogens or stimulants, although their effects are often somewhat characteristic of such.

The term "empathogen" was coined in 1983 by Ralph Metzner to denote chemical agents inducing feelings of empathy. "Entactogen" was coined by David E. Nichols as an alternative to "empathogen", attempting to avoid the potential for improper association of the latter with negative connotations related to the Greek root "pathos" (suffering); Nichols also thought the word was limiting, and did not cover other therapeutic uses for the drugs that go beyond instilling feelings of empathy. The word "entactogen" is derived from the roots "en" (Greek: within), "tactus" (Latin: touch) and "gen" (Greek: produce) (Nichols 1986: 308). Neither term is dominant in usage, and, despite their difference in connotation, are essentially interchangeable, as they refer to precisely the same chemicals.

These drugs appear to produce a different spectrum of psychological effects from major stimulants such as methamphetamine and amphetamine or from major psychedelic drugs such as LSD or psilocybin. As implied by the category names, users of entactogens say the drugs often produce feelings of empathy, love, and emotional closeness to others. However, there have been only very preliminary comparisons of these different drugs in humans in properly-controlled laboratory studies.

If MDMA is taken as a representative entactogen, the pharmacological mechanisms of this class—increased extracellular dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine—closely resemble those of methamphetamine. In a study of rodents, MDMA was recently shown to induce release of oxytocin, a hormone and neurotransmitter involved in social bonding.[1] This may contribute to the emotional effects of MDMA. However, many other serotonergic drugs also increase oxytocin without producing the unusual effects of MDMA. Entactogens other than MDMA have received relatively little scientific attention, making it difficult to draw conclusions about the mechanisms of entactogens in general.

Axiom_Blade · 31st May 2009, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

Best avoid MDMA then. SSRI's completely blunt its effects.

I thought MDMA caused your brain to make more serotonin, so that if you were taking an SSRI, you'd wind up with WAY too much serotonin in your brain, and you'd get very sick.

Travis · 1st June 2009, 02:01 AM

Too much serotonin is deadly isn't it?

paximperium · 1st June 2009, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

So, in your ER, how many patients have you had to treat for Marijuana or Hashish overdose?

You can't really "OD" on marijuana but you can drive your car off a cliff or kill someone else when you drive impaired. I've seen 2 so far, many many more alcohol related.

paximperium · 1st June 2009, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Too much serotonin is deadly isn't it?

Serotonin Syndrome is a dead giveaway

paximperium · 1st June 2009, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I knew some people who died from the tylenol thing (two former clients), I forget what this one girl took in the ED, I think it was darvoset or something, she was really nauseous. To say the least she was miserable.

Tylenol(Acetaminophen) is one of the most common suicide drugs. It will kill you in 24-72 hours by causing fulminant liver failure. Not pretty.

Good thing, we have an antidote if we treat you within 8-24hours.

wackyvorlon · 1st June 2009, 02:16 AM

Seritonin sickness, as I recall. I have a friend who is on disability now because of the effects.

Personally, my feelings on the use of drugs are very negative. Not only are they illegal, they are hazardous and their manufacture is not regulated. You really have very little knowledge of what you're actually taking. It's your brain, if you want to melt it, that's your own business, IMO. As for me, however, I will have fun doing something far more interesting.

paximperium · 1st June 2009, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by wackyvorlon

Seritonin sickness, as I recall. I have a friend who is on disability now because of the effects.

Personally, my feelings on the use of drugs are very negative. Not only are they illegal, they are hazardous and their manufacture is not regulated. You really have very little knowledge of what you're actually taking. It's your brain, if you want to melt it, that's your own business, IMO. As for me, however, I will have fun doing something far more interesting.

Amen, brother. I have little need or desire for mind altering substances. I seldom drink and seriously dislike being drunk and or tipsy. I only use caffeine and have used provigil in the past to prevent me from dying from falling asleep at the wheel.

That's about as much interest I have with drugs except for dealing with fallout effects with some of my "customers". I have no idea what the hell's the appeal.

Dancing David · 1st June 2009, 04:29 AM

In my case I fely better after the use of serotonergic agents for about 3 weeks. For a while I enjoyed the active phase, but I began to crave it as well. Now only caffine. (And I am tapering the Zoloft after 8+ years).

BenBurch · 1st June 2009, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by paximperium

You can't really "OD" on marijuana but you can drive your car off a cliff or kill someone else when you drive impaired. I've seen 2 so far, many many more alcohol related.

True. And then there is just being too sleepy. Or talking on the cell phone. Or eating a hamburger. Or having an unrestrained dog in the car.

I'm betting all of those cause more highway deaths.

Zeuzzz · 1st June 2009, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade

I thought MDMA caused your brain to make more serotonin, so that if you were taking an SSRI, you'd wind up with WAY too much serotonin in your brain, and you'd get very sick.

As it I understand it, MDMA doesn't block it like SSRI's, but makes it operate in reverse, effectively pumping out the 5HT stored. SSRIs simply stop it working, preventing reuptake. And thus largely blunts the effects.

So while MDMA causes a rapid peak of serotonin in the synapse by dumping all the stored serotonin at once, SSRIs on the other hand tend to "flatten" synaptic serotonin levels by blocking reuptake but simultaneously inhibiting release.

Neither MDMA or SSRIs affect how much serotonin actually gets produced inside the neuron as this is controlled seperately, but you can boost serotonin production to some extent by taking serotonin precursors such as 5HTP.

Very comprehensive and well written article here which covers this:

http://www.mdma.net/

Quote:

Alas, adopting a prophylactic SSRI regimen isn't a realistic long-term option for frequent MDMA users either, or at least not if they intend to continue using their hugdrug of choice. This is because a sustained regimen of SSRIs largely blunts MDMA's empathogenic and entactogenic effects. SSRIs inhibit the binding of MDMA to the serotonin transporter. Thus pre-treatment with SSRIs prevents MDMA-triggered serotonin-release; and this in turn reduces dopamine-release in the striatum. Some SSRI users who like to rave nonetheless continue to take MDMA. They consume abnormally high quantities of pills to gain the desired E-like effect. At this dosage range, the persistence of metabolite-induced MDA-like states of consciousness the next day is not unexpected. In practice, the after-effects are often modulated by cannabis and alcohol.

Tolerance to MDMA itself develops quite rapidly with steady use. If MDMA is taken several days in a row, amphetamine-like and eventually dysphoric effects start to predominate. Monoamine neurotransmitters, most drastically serotonin, are depleted from the axon terminals; serotonin synthesis is choked off following oxidative inactivation of tryptophan hydroxylase; and the nerve-cell receptors re-regulate. Thus MDMA is not addictive in the conventional sense. Taken chronically, it soon ceases to be rewarding. Even dedicated ravers typically don't binge more than once a week. Wiser heads save the drug for "special occasions". Yet MDMA's non-addictive profile is no guarantee that (as was once fondly hoped), "once you get the message you hang up the phone." The mind/brain isn't built like that. If you really like a drug-delivered message, you want to hear it again and again. But with MDMA, the message can subtly change with time; and its primal magic gets sullied or forgotten.

Axiom_Blade · 1st June 2009, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by paximperium

You can't really "OD" on marijuana but you can drive your car off a cliff or kill someone else when you drive impaired. I've seen 2 so far, many many more alcohol related.

Here's something I've always wondered:
How do you tell if the person was on cannabis? Blood test?
The cannabinoids stay in your body for a long time after you sober up, at least a few months. How can you tell if the person smoked a joint on the night they were driving, or a week ago?

Originally Posted by wackyvorlon

You really have very little knowledge of what you're actually taking.

That's why education is so important; so you know what you're putting into your body.
If you're worried about the drug being cut with something harmful...that's a common problem with MDMA, but not necessarily with others. It wouldn't make any sense to cut LSD, for instance, because it's so cheap to produce in the first place. The dosage is so minute that anything you cut it with wouldn't have an effect, anyway.

Originally Posted by wackyvorlon

As for me, however, I will have fun doing something far more interesting.

People don't always do them for fun. Sometimes you just need to clear your head out, or get a new perspective.

Zeuzzz · 1st June 2009, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

True. And then there is just being too sleepy. Or talking on the cell phone. Or eating a hamburger. Or having an unrestrained dog in the car.

I'm betting all of those cause more highway deaths.

Yup, for sure. Ban the dogs and hambrugers! I think schedule II at least.

Infact I watched a program where they tested people who were smoking cannabis against people who were drinking and a normal group. The drunk people hit loads of cones and went faster, the normal group went normal speed and hit a couple of cones, and the people who had smoked cannabis were much more precautious and drove slower, and thus didn;t hit any of the cones on the course. So theres even the argument while driving stoned yuour actually more precautious and safer. But then again this depends on your level of intoxication, and whether your a regular smoker whos used to it, or are inexperienced and more 'out of it'.

Zeuzzz · 1st June 2009, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade

How can you tell if the person smoked a joint on the night they were driving, or a week ago?

I think that they can tell by the amount of THC in the blood. As THC has such a long half life (~50 hours) its quite easy to detect amounts, but then again theres the question of wherther they've just smoked load the weeks before and its still in their system, or whether they've just smoked a bit just then when they've been driving. I'm sure theres other methods they use, but I dont know them as I dont smoke weed at all anymore. Just makes me sleepy.

Quote:

If you're worried about the drug being cut with something harmful...that's a common problem with MDMA, but not necessarily with others.

There are ways to A) test the purity and B) purify the product (I listed a couple above) Its always worth doing this with black market chemicals without controls. I do every time. But I've never found anything to be contaminated, generally if dealers were selling contaminated crap they would lose their customer base. So it is extremely rare, but not unheard of.

blutoski · 1st June 2009, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Lethality is not the only form of harm. I'm not much of a fan of current drug policy, but dishonest arguments won't work to change them, and not acknowledging the other forms of harm drugs do (which can be considerable) is dishonest.

That is an entirely separate issue, but no, I don't think potential lethality is the only difference between OTC and prescription.

That's correct: the two ms in "M&M" are "morbidity" and "mortality" - morbidity is much more common.

29th May 2009, 11:27 AM	#1
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Drug death statistics Stumbled across this, which I found interesting. http://www.thedea.org/statistics.html Quote: The death rate for MDMA, assuming that there really were about 60 deaths directly caused by MDMA in 2000, would be roughly 2 in 100,000 users. The death rate from smoking, by contrast, is on the order of 400 per 100,000 users. Even alcohol, America's official "it's not really a drug" drug, nets about 50 deaths per 100,000 users each year:[3] [.....] [3] Death numbers are based on 'rough justice': The US Centers for Disease Control reports over 100,000 alcohol related deaths per year, with close to 200 million Americans using alcohol. CDC also reports over 400,000 smoking related deaths per year out of about 100 million smokers. The 'ecstasy related' drug deaths number is based on an assumption of about 60 deaths (in all probability there were only a handfull of purely 'ecstasy' deaths) out of a user population of about 3 million (based on the 2000 National Household Survey on Drug Abuse Statistics, conducted by SAMHSA.) Think that this is an accurate representation? Or are the figures unreliable in some way? Would be nice to see some published figures in a science journal. If true, its quite outstanding really when you think about it. The drug MDMA is illegal everywhere in the world and causes on average 2 deaths in every 100,000 users, yet Alcohol is legal and actually pushed and mass marketed around the whole world to the general population and causes 40 deaths per 100,000 users. And tobacco is even worse.
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241

29th May 2009, 11:28 AM	#2
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Anyone know of any comprehensive published paper that shows the number of deaths per n users of various drugs?
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241

29th May 2009, 03:54 PM	#6
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,201	Originally Posted by Zeuzzz Think that this is an accurate representation? Or are the figures unreliable in some way? Would be nice to see some published figures in a science journal. If true, its quite outstanding really when you think about it. The drug MDMA is illegal everywhere in the world and causes on average 2 deaths in every 100,000 users, yet Alcohol is legal and actually pushed and mass marketed around the whole world to the general population and causes 40 deaths per 100,000 users. And tobacco is even worse. The stats might be true, but they're also fairly meaningless. Particularly in the case of cigarettes, both the usage patterns and the primary fatality mechanism is so different (daily use vs. occasional weekend raves, long-term heart and lung disease vs. acute dehydration) that the comparison just doesn't have any significance. Plus, of course, the legality or illegality of a drug isn't just (or even mostly) a function of its potential lethality.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

29th May 2009, 08:02 PM	#7
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,186	Marijuana is mostly harmless, yet the State sees fit to destroy people's lives over their use, growing, or selling of it. I used to think sense would prevail, but it never will.
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30th May 2009, 02:29 AM	#8
Axiom_Blade Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,748	Originally Posted by BenBurch Marijuana is mostly harmless, yet the State sees fit to destroy people's lives over their use, growing, or selling of it. I used to think sense would prevail, but it never will. Well, many states have medical cannabis laws, which is a big step forward, and many cities have taken the step of making it a "lowest priority". So there's been slow progress. The reason for this is its ubiquity: it's relatively easy to grow, non-addictive, and has pleasant effects for most users. Hallucinogens, though, are a whole other mess. You have to have specialized training to make many of them, and the effects aren't always pleasant, and can even be downright disturbing. As a result, there's much less push for legalization. Originally Posted by Ziggurat Plus, of course, the legality or illegality of a drug isn't just (or even mostly) a function of its potential lethality. I thought that was the whole point. If there's no harm, why make it illegal? That's what is used to determine if a drug gets prescription-only, or over-the-counter status, right? Originally Posted by Zeuzzz The drug MDMA is illegal everywhere in the world and causes on average 2 deaths in every 100,000 users, yet Alcohol is legal and actually pushed and mass marketed around the whole world to the general population and causes 40 deaths per 100,000 users. When speaking of MDMA deaths, it's worth noting that some casualties weren't a direct result of the drug. For instance, one girl's death was attributed to MDMA, but it came out later that she actually died from hyponatremia (water intoxication). Some users, worried about dehydration, overcompensate and wind up drinking far too much water. You have to balance out your body's salts. It's bizarre to think that a bowl of pretzels could've saved this girl's life. Of course, her parents were all over the TV talk shows talking about how Ecstasy killed their daughter. Education is a big issue here.
	Last edited by Axiom_Blade; 30th May 2009 at 02:37 AM.

29th May 2009, 03:16 PM	#3
Wolrab Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Beautiful Finger Lakes Posts: 1,713	Over the years, this topic has interested me. Recently there was an ad on the radio stating that there are more ED visits caused by prescription drug abuse than caused by heroin and marijuana combined. It sounds pretty scary if you don't dig deeper. I just found this site with minimal effort. I don't know the veracity of the claims but I wouldn't be too surprised to find it correct. http://www.briancbennett.com/charts/dawn/ED-trends.htm I remember Dr. Dean Edell asking if you would go out and purchase drugs if they were all made legal. I just can't see everyday Joe's deciding to shoot up just because it is legal. Everything is available if one sets their minds on getting it.

29th May 2009, 03:29 PM	#4
Wolrab Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Beautiful Finger Lakes Posts: 1,713	Originally Posted by Zeuzzz Anyone know of any comprehensive published paper that shows the number of deaths per n users of various drugs? The link I linked above has stats up the wazoo. Again I can't vouch for veracity. I would be suspect of any official stats because of the government's need to justify their policies. (EEK! I'm a conspiracy nut!)

29th May 2009, 03:45 PM	#5
Axiom_Blade Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,748	Originally Posted by Wolrab I would be suspect of any official stats because of the government's need to justify their policies. (EEK! I'm a conspiracy nut!) Not really. The government has lied in the past. However, their latest policy regarding illicit drugs appears to be slanting the truth, not outright lying. They play fast-and-loose with the facts. (A simple example of this is highlighting and exaggerating all of the negative effects of a target drug, while remaining silent on the drug's positive effects.) As always, it's a good idea to check your sources. I find the Erowid.org website very helpful. MDMA is, of course, not alone here. There aren't any deaths from LSD, or psilocybin mushrooms, or cannabis; yet they're all ridiculously illegal. You can get put away for 20 years to life, just for producing and distributing LSD. Most of our current drug prohibition laws are a result of a culture war that started in the 60s.

30th May 2009, 05:10 AM	#9
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,724	Originally Posted by Zeuzzz Anyone know of any comprehensive published paper that shows the number of deaths per n users of various drugs? Well Zeuzzz, here is the issue, death statistics collection. Many deaths do not have an autopsy, some (a large percentage) do not have a toxicology. Given the nature of illicit and abused legal drugs you are not going to get an accurate sample. Then there is the whole 'cause of death' issue, which is commonly part of death certificates. Often unless there is an inquest it is not very elaborate. So it might just say "cardio-vascular event' or some such. It might not say CVE due to methamphetamine use. Or auto accident as opposed to ‘auto accident secondary to alcohol use’. Then there is the issue of hiding, suicide is often not recorded as suicide, for example.
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30th May 2009, 07:50 AM	#10
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,201	Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade I thought that was the whole point. If there's no harm, why make it illegal? Lethality is not the only form of harm. I'm not much of a fan of current drug policy, but dishonest arguments won't work to change them, and not acknowledging the other forms of harm drugs do (which can be considerable) is dishonest. Quote: That's what is used to determine if a drug gets prescription-only, or over-the-counter status, right? That is an entirely separate issue, but no, I don't think potential lethality is the only difference between OTC and prescription.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

30th May 2009, 01:11 PM	#11
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,186	I think I would also make an exception on Stropharia Cubensis and related species, Axiom Blade, just because you DON'T need to worry about synthesis and no home chemist is going to make something that isn't QUITE the target drug and maim people (and this does happen.) And don't ask me how I know this, but home cultivation is pretty simple if you have a pressure canner.
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30th May 2009, 08:12 PM	#12
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,724	I would not myself, it takes a really clean practice and following the rules as well. But I do know someone who has done so, many times. I also avoid serotonergic hallucinogens. It is better for me to take Zoloft. No panic attacks (no buzz either).
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

31st May 2009, 09:24 AM	#13
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Best avoid MDMA then. SSRI's completely blunt its effects. My current breif citalopram regimen means I cant use MDMA for another three months till I've fully tapered. But considering I only use it once or twice yearly, its not gonna make that much difference anyway. Although MDMA is not really a hallucinogen at all, you dont actually see things or hallucinate. Just makes you very 'loved up', and surrounds everything you think of in an empathogenic glow, thus why its proven so efficacious for curing people with PTSD and people with traumatic pasts with lots of bad memories. I only use it for the theraputic aspects really, not recreationally. Its like a truth serum, gives you unrivalled powers of truthful self introspection that enable you to look at yourself from a different perspective and see what actions will make you happier. Its like an instantly acting breif but powerful SSRI, to an extent. The main downside to it is the comedown, but this can be combatted with serotonin precursors like 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP). And you've got all the other uneducated idiots that use it more frequently and in higher dosages than the clinical studies have shown are perfectly safe, and so make all the scary news headlines. Plus, the fact its illegal and thus is more likely to contain contaminants is a bummer, unless you clean it with a simple acetone wash or test it with a marquis reagent. MDMA is to SSRI's what Amineptine is to tricyclic antidepressants.
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241

31st May 2009, 09:29 AM	#14
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Anyone know the number of deaths per n number of users of aspirin or paracetemol? Probably very low, but would be interesting to see.
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241

31st May 2009, 09:33 AM	#15
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Originally Posted by Dancing David Then there is the whole 'cause of death' issue, which is commonly part of death certificates. Often unless there is an inquest it is not very elaborate. So it might just say "cardio-vascular event' or some such. It might not say CVE due to methamphetamine use. Or auto accident as opposed to ‘auto accident secondary to alcohol use’. Thats what I thought. If someone jumps off a bride a day after doing acid did they commit suicide? Did the acid kill them? Did the impact kill them? What would get put on the autopsy? Hard to say. Same goes for every drug I suppose, so you'd expect them to roughly average out. right?
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Last edited by Zeuzzz; 31st May 2009 at 09:40 AM.

31st May 2009, 09:47 AM	#16
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	I can tellya, the ER where I work sees many heroin cases, but more pharmaceuticals. Trouble is, many pts. come in with a cocktail of many things in their system. And the ignorance of what they're taking disturbs me, especially now in this age of the interwebs, where one can look up information about the drug before taking it. Many pts. cannot relate what it was that they even took, and tests are needed to reveal the info before actual treatment can begin. Lately kids are coming in claiming to have taken "methadrone", which is variously claimed to be from China and Japan, and kids get it in tabs which they crush and snort. They wig right the **** out.
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31st May 2009, 09:49 AM	#17
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	Also I should say many of the suicides we see are kids who took a boatload of Tylenol. Never ever OD Tylenol, it won't kill you but you'll wish it had. If any of you have angst-ridden teenagers, with a history of attempts or spoken ideations, pass that on in a gentle, nonsuggestive way.
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31st May 2009, 09:54 AM	#18
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0 Lately kids are coming in claiming to have taken "methadrone", which is variously claimed to be from China and Japan, and kids get it in tabs which they crush and snort. They wig right the **** out. I suspect your talking about mephedrone, or 4-Methylmethcathinone. The fact that its a beta ketone analogue of methcathinone and legal nearly world wide means that its popularity has expolded recently. Despite there being no studies on it at all in the literature. Meph is to methcathinone what methylone is to MDMA (methylone being the beta-ketone analogue of MDMA, and also sold in many countries as a designer drug). But methylone has been studied quite a lot and has been around for many years and has proven much safer in trials, mephedrone is still completely unstudied. Not one paper. Its sold in many legal highs party pills. I've tried it once (personally in tiny amounts, <100mg) with some friends at uni, its similar to MDMA but with more stimulating properties. But I'm staying clear of that one until some studies are done. People have reported some very nasty side effects recently from using it too much on erowid. I've seen people doing silly amounts of it nearly daily (grams of the stuff), and they haven't died, theres been just one death I think out of hundreds of thousands of users, but no one knows the long term effects. So definately best to avoid.
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Last edited by Zeuzzz; 31st May 2009 at 10:55 AM.

31st May 2009, 10:00 AM	#19
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,186	Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0 Also I should say many of the suicides we see are kids who took a boatload of Tylenol. Never ever OD Tylenol, it won't kill you but you'll wish it had. If any of you have angst-ridden teenagers, with a history of attempts or spoken ideations, pass that on in a gentle, nonsuggestive way. So, in your ER, how many patients have you had to treat for Marijuana or Hashish overdose?
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31st May 2009, 10:23 AM	#20
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	I'd like to pre-empt and say that there have been loads. But not one has ever resulted in a fatality in history, only people thinking they might die.
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31st May 2009, 10:44 AM	#21
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,186	Originally Posted by Zeuzzz I'd like to pre-empt and say that there have been loads. But not one has ever resulted in a fatality in history, only people thinking they might die. True, but those aren't actual ODs.
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31st May 2009, 11:46 AM	#22
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,724	Originally Posted by Zeuzzz Anyone know the number of deaths per n number of users of aspirin or paracetemol? Probably very low, but would be interesting to see. Actually they are bad drugs, when used to commit suicide. You wake up and say "Wow, i am alive", then you die from painful liver failure two weeks later.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

31st May 2009, 11:49 AM	#23
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,724	Originally Posted by Magnifico2.0 I can tellya, the ER where I work sees many heroin cases, but more pharmaceuticals. Trouble is, many pts. come in with a cocktail of many things in their system. And the ignorance of what they're taking disturbs me, especially now in this age of the interwebs, where one can look up information about the drug before taking it. Many pts. cannot relate what it was that they even took, and tests are needed to reveal the info before actual treatment can begin. Lately kids are coming in claiming to have taken "methadrone", which is variously claimed to be from China and Japan, and kids get it in tabs which they crush and snort. They wig right the **** out. I knew some people who died from the tylenol thing (two former clients), I forget what this one girl took in the ED, I think it was darvoset or something, she was really nauseous. To say the least she was miserable. The scary one was this guy who would huff paint thinner. (I am not a doctor, I was a mental health screener.)
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

31st May 2009, 11:51 AM	#24
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,724	Originally Posted by Zeuzzz Best avoid MDMA then. SSRI's completely blunt its effects. My current breif citalopram regimen means I cant use MDMA for another three months till I've fully tapered. But considering I only use it once or twice yearly, its not gonna make that much difference anyway. Although MDMA is not really a hallucinogen at all, you dont actually see things or hallucinate. Just makes you very 'loved up', and surrounds everything you think of in an empathogenic glow, thus why its proven so efficacious for curing people with PTSD and people with traumatic pasts with lots of bad memories. I only use it for the theraputic aspects really, not recreationally. Its like a truth serum, gives you unrivalled powers of truthful self introspection that enable you to look at yourself from a different perspective and see what actions will make you happier. Its like an instantly acting breif but powerful SSRI, to an extent. The main downside to it is the comedown, but this can be combatted with serotonin precursors like 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP). And you've got all the other uneducated idiots that use it more frequently and in higher dosages than the clinical studies have shown are perfectly safe, and so make all the scary news headlines. Plus, the fact its illegal and thus is more likely to contain contaminants is a bummer, unless you clean it with a simple acetone wash or test it with a marquis reagent. MDMA is to SSRI's what Amineptine is to tricyclic antidepressants. No, I avoid any serotonergic hallucinogens. I am prone to addiction to them and then panic attacks. I avoid them, not seek them out. Period.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

31st May 2009, 12:00 PM	#25
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	If thats your rule, then stick to it. You'd know better than I would about you... of course.
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241

31st May 2009, 12:12 PM	#26
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Then again I wouldn't call MDMA a hallucinogen at all, most people call it a slightly stimulating empathogen. Its a very odd mix, and a very unique chemical in its effects. Or I think that Nichols, Shulgin et al coined the term entactogen in the literature to distinguish it from normal hallucinogens. As much as i hate quoting wiki, I think this article is quite respectable: Quote: The terms empathogen and entactogen are used to describe a class of psychoactive drugs that produce distinctive emotional and social effects similar to those of MDMA ("Ecstasy"). Putative members of this class include MDMA, MDA, MDEA, MBDB, and AET, among others. The chemical structure of most entactogens contains a substituted amphetamine core, and most belong to the phenethylamine class of psychoactive drugs. When referring to MDMA and its counterparts, the term 'MDxx' is often used with the exception of MDPV. Entactogens are often incorrectly referred to as major hallucinogens or stimulants, although their effects are often somewhat characteristic of such. The term "empathogen" was coined in 1983 by Ralph Metzner to denote chemical agents inducing feelings of empathy. "Entactogen" was coined by David E. Nichols as an alternative to "empathogen", attempting to avoid the potential for improper association of the latter with negative connotations related to the Greek root "pathos" (suffering); Nichols also thought the word was limiting, and did not cover other therapeutic uses for the drugs that go beyond instilling feelings of empathy. The word "entactogen" is derived from the roots "en" (Greek: within), "tactus" (Latin: touch) and "gen" (Greek: produce) (Nichols 1986: 308). Neither term is dominant in usage, and, despite their difference in connotation, are essentially interchangeable, as they refer to precisely the same chemicals. These drugs appear to produce a different spectrum of psychological effects from major stimulants such as methamphetamine and amphetamine or from major psychedelic drugs such as LSD or psilocybin. As implied by the category names, users of entactogens say the drugs often produce feelings of empathy, love, and emotional closeness to others. However, there have been only very preliminary comparisons of these different drugs in humans in properly-controlled laboratory studies. If MDMA is taken as a representative entactogen, the pharmacological mechanisms of this class—increased extracellular dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine—closely resemble those of methamphetamine. In a study of rodents, MDMA was recently shown to induce release of oxytocin, a hormone and neurotransmitter involved in social bonding.[1] This may contribute to the emotional effects of MDMA. However, many other serotonergic drugs also increase oxytocin without producing the unusual effects of MDMA. Entactogens other than MDMA have received relatively little scientific attention, making it difficult to draw conclusions about the mechanisms of entactogens in general.
Zeuzzz Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 5,241	Last edited by Zeuzzz; 31st May 2009 at 12:27 PM.

31st May 2009, 11:45 PM	#27
Axiom_Blade Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,748	Originally Posted by Zeuzzz Best avoid MDMA then. SSRI's completely blunt its effects. I thought MDMA caused your brain to make more serotonin, so that if you were taking an SSRI, you'd wind up with WAY too much serotonin in your brain, and you'd get very sick.

1st June 2009, 02:01 AM	#28
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,945	Too much serotonin is deadly isn't it?
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1st June 2009, 02:07 AM	#29
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,727	Originally Posted by BenBurch So, in your ER, how many patients have you had to treat for Marijuana or Hashish overdose? You can't really "OD" on marijuana but you can drive your car off a cliff or kill someone else when you drive impaired. I've seen 2 so far, many many more alcohol related.
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1st June 2009, 02:08 AM	#30
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,727	Originally Posted by Travis Too much serotonin is deadly isn't it? Serotonin Syndrome is a dead giveaway
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

1st June 2009, 02:13 AM	#31
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,727	Originally Posted by Dancing David I knew some people who died from the tylenol thing (two former clients), I forget what this one girl took in the ED, I think it was darvoset or something, she was really nauseous. To say the least she was miserable. Tylenol(Acetaminophen) is one of the most common suicide drugs. It will kill you in 24-72 hours by causing fulminant liver failure. Not pretty. Good thing, we have an antidote if we treat you within 8-24hours.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

1st June 2009, 02:16 AM	#32
wackyvorlon Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sarnia, ON, Canada Posts: 333	Seritonin sickness, as I recall. I have a friend who is on disability now because of the effects. Personally, my feelings on the use of drugs are very negative. Not only are they illegal, they are hazardous and their manufacture is not regulated. You really have very little knowledge of what you're actually taking. It's your brain, if you want to melt it, that's your own business, IMO. As for me, however, I will have fun doing something far more interesting.

1st June 2009, 02:21 AM	#33
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,727	Originally Posted by wackyvorlon Seritonin sickness, as I recall. I have a friend who is on disability now because of the effects. Personally, my feelings on the use of drugs are very negative. Not only are they illegal, they are hazardous and their manufacture is not regulated. You really have very little knowledge of what you're actually taking. It's your brain, if you want to melt it, that's your own business, IMO. As for me, however, I will have fun doing something far more interesting. Amen, brother. I have little need or desire for mind altering substances. I seldom drink and seriously dislike being drunk and or tipsy. I only use caffeine and have used provigil in the past to prevent me from dying from falling asleep at the wheel. That's about as much interest I have with drugs except for dealing with fallout effects with some of my "customers". I have no idea what the hell's the appeal.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

1st June 2009, 04:29 AM	#34
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,724	In my case I fely better after the use of serotonergic agents for about 3 weeks. For a while I enjoyed the active phase, but I began to crave it as well. Now only caffine. (And I am tapering the Zoloft after 8+ years).
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

1st June 2009, 06:27 AM	#35
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,186	Originally Posted by paximperium You can't really "OD" on marijuana but you can drive your car off a cliff or kill someone else when you drive impaired. I've seen 2 so far, many many more alcohol related. True. And then there is just being too sleepy. Or talking on the cell phone. Or eating a hamburger. Or having an unrestrained dog in the car. I'm betting all of those cause more highway deaths.
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