"Abortion Doctor" Murdered

[rwguinn]

http://www.kwch.com/Global/story.asp?S=10451609

I guess only "life in the womb" is good.
I will never understand these ******** who do this. I wnat to see "Christians" condemn this ****, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Drudgewire]

Originally Posted by rwguinn

I wnat to see "Christians" condemn this ****, but I'm not holding my breath.

Well, I'd imagine the rest of the congregation of the church he was shot in would condemn it pretty heavily.

[sugarb]

Originally Posted by rwguinn

http://www.kwch.com/Global/story.asp?S=10451609

I guess only "life in the womb" is good.
I will never understand these ******** who do this. I wnat to see "Christians" condemn this ****, but I'm not holding my breath.

Your implication that "Christians" condone murdering abortionists is just as pathetic as "Christians" implying that those supporting the right to abortion condone killing babies.

Some people are nutjobs. That's all there is to it. Nutjobs can claim to be anything...but they're just nutjobs.

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by rwguinn

http://www.kwch.com/Global/story.asp?S=10451609

I guess only "life in the womb" is good.
I will never understand these ******** who do this. I wnat to see "Christians" condemn this ****, but I'm not holding my breath.

They see it as protecting the Herd...kill one if it saves hundreds...

We could eliminate half of all abortions if the Catholic Church said that from this point on, to practice birth control, until all of the world's orphanages were empty...

[thaiboxerken]

Christianity...a religion of peace.....

[Safe-Keeper]

Quote:

They see it as protecting the Herd...kill one if it saves hundreds...

Yup. If you consider abortion murder, then you're looking at a genocide of millions of innocents. More than enough of a reason in their eyes to commit murder.

Quote:

We could eliminate half of all abortions if the Catholic Church said that from this point on, to practice birth control, until all of the world's orphanages were empty...

Which won't happen as long as they view sex as an evil, nasty sin.

ETA: Funny you mention orphanages... you'd think that a religious institution which abhors sex so much would go with an all-out abstinence stance? "Don't have sex at all, there are children out there awaiting adoption" or something.

[Skeptic]

I am against abortion of convenience. I am against abortion as birth control. I am not against abortion in all circumstances (e.g., rape, incest, to save the mother, etc.)

I think the Jewish sages got it right: the fetus is a person who has rights, but it does not have equal rights to the mother. I also agree with them that a fertilized egg or a zygote, for instance, is not yet a fetus and does not yet have rights -- they didn't know about eggs or zygotes, of course, but they realized the fetus develops gradually and does not have rights from the moment of conception.

The ancient sages declared the fetus, even the fully developed fetus, to be a rodef -- one who pursues with intent to kill -- that is, someone who it is permissible to kill if necessary, although not if there are other ways to stop him from hurting the other person. Unlike the catholic church, the rabbis allowed the killing of a fetus to save the mother's life or to save her from serious harm.

However, I am also for birth control and sex education. One of its advantages, quite apart from the issue of making women more equal to men in sex, is that it makes unwanted pregmancies unnecessary, therefore reducing the need for abortion.

I think many of those who oppose both birth control and abortion care little for the fetus, and a lot about making sure a woman who has "sinful" sex outside marriage is appropriately "punished" with a baby.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

I am against abortion of convenience.

[

Why?

Quote:

I am not against abortion in all circumstances (e.g., rape, incest, to save the mother, etc.) I think the Jewish sages got it right: the fetus is a person who has rights, but it does not have equal rights to the mother.

Why?

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Which won't happen as long as they view sex as an evil, nasty sin.

ETA: Funny you mention orphanages... you'd think that a religious institution which abhors sex so much would go with an all-out abstinence stance? "Don't have sex at all, there are children out there awaiting adoption" or something.

From Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians:

Quote:

[1] Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
[2] Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
[3] Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
[4] The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
[5] Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
[6] But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
[7] For I would that all men were even as I myself*. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
[8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.*
[9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

* I.E., celibate.

Boldings mine. Not sure if by "burn," Paul means burn in hell or burn with unsatisfied sexual desire.

[Drudgewire]

Again, this was a CHRISTIAN doctor in church with other CHRISTIANS.

Suggesting christianity is to blame rather than a nutcase requires ignoring these little facts.

[thaiboxerken]

Nope, christianity is to blame. Christianity taught this man that abortion is murder and that the doctor is a murderer. Christianity dwarfed the shooter's ability to reason.

[Drudgewire]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Nope, christianity is to blame. Christianity taught this man that abortion is murder and that the doctor is a murderer. Christianity dwarfed the shooter's ability to reason.

And here I was thinking "thou shalt not kill" and "judge not, lest ye be judged" didn't mean "kill those who oppose you."

Silly me.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

Again, this was a CHRISTIAN doctor in church with other CHRISTIANS.

Suggesting christianity is to blame rather than a nutcase requires ignoring these little facts.

This whole thread shows what I dislike about the "New Atheism": At times some of it's followers seem just a bigoted and close minded as the Religious Fundies they hate.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Nope, christianity is to blame. Christianity taught this man that abortion is murder and that the doctor is a murderer. Christianity dwarfed the shooter's ability to reason.

Thanks for proving my point about how an atheiest/seclurists can be just as close minded and bigoted as a religious fundy.

[sugarb]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Nope, christianity is to blame. Christianity taught this man that abortion is murder and that the doctor is a murderer. Christianity dwarfed the shooter's ability to reason.

So...may I ask what dwarfed your ability to reason? Certainly what you assert can be proven false, since all/most Christians don't roam around looking for people to murder. All Christians aren't even opposed to abortion. All Christians don't believe abortion is murder.

Or are the ones who don't murder doctors not really Christians? It would seem you've painted a lot of barns in your life. Why not try something requiring a smaller brush.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Why?



Why?

Because I'm dad, and I say so.

(If you're going to use a five-year-old's debating technique, I'm going to use the parent's counterargument.)

[Steelmage]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Thanks for proving my point about how an atheiest/seclurists can be just as close minded and bigoted as a religious fundy.

But the question is, would he have killed that doctor without religion. The killer got the logic of killing the doctor to save lives from religion as far as I know this is where the idea seems to come from. Or put it a better way, is it religion that puts out the idea that a fetus has rights, or did it come from a non-religious source?

[Skeptic]

I don't think anybody here approves of this man's actions. I am sure the vast majority of Christians and Americans strongly condemn him. But did you notice how, suddenly, generalizing about all members of the religion, implying the religion's dogma makes all its adherents wannabe murderers because that man is a religious murderer, is just fine... simply because it's Christianity and not Islam that is being discussed?

If you try to understand all religions without generalizing about all the believers because of the action of some, that's one thing. If you are bigoted about other people's religion and paint them with a broad brush, but demand people make distinctions about members of your own religion (or country), that is wrong, but it is at least understandable -- it is human nature. But it is beyond comprehension why someone would paint his own country with a broad brush of dislike and contempt, while being deeply concerned to never to the same to strangers and foreigners... and the more those foreigners hate one's own country, the more sympathetic and undestanding to their motives one feels one must be.

On second thought, it's not beyond comprehension. Quite easily undestandable, in fact: it is "virtue on the installment plan", making one feel 'broad minded' and a 'non-conformists' and a a 'fighter againt injustice' for the cheap, cheap price of merely directing one's boos and hoorays in the "appropriate" direction. The problem is, these folks' utter predictability makes a mockery of their self-important belief about their own "original views" which do not "surrender to government propaganda". Original thinkers are usually harder to predict.

Glibert and Sullivan had these guys' number, over a century ago: Ko-Ko's famous "little list" of "society offenders who may well be underground / and none of them be missed" already included "the idiot who praises / in enthusiastic tones / all centuries but this / and every country but his own".

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Nope, christianity is to blame. Christianity taught this man that abortion is murder and that the doctor is a murderer. Christianity dwarfed the shooter's ability to reason.

It's true! It says right in the Bible, "...and Jesus spake unto the multitude, 'If an abortionist offend thee, slay him as thou would a poisonous viper, for I say unto thee, the only good abortionist is a dead abortionist.'"

It's right there in Onan 3:10.

Okay, seriously, can you point to a chapter and verse where Jesus says you should kill anyone at all?

I'll be here, waiting, just me and the crickets.

[LostAngeles]

Until we find that it was some religious whackjob and not a disgruntled employee/business partner or someone who was doing his wife or someone whose wife he was doing or simply random, I'm going to hold off on grumbling about fundies above my normal level of grumbling about fundies.

At this point, it's up there with the guy who blamed the, "towelheads," for the OK City Bombing right after it happened.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Steelmage

But the question is, would he have killed that doctor without religion. The killer got the logic of killing the doctor to save lives from religion as far as I know this is where the idea seems to come from. Or put it a better way, is it religion that puts out the idea that a fetus has rights, or did it come from a non-religious source?

Bad argument. It possible to think a Fetus has rights and oppose Abotion through political.peaceful means. And heaven knows that secular political movements have their share of violent wackjobs.

[rwguinn]

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

Again, this was a CHRISTIAN doctor in church with other CHRISTIANS.

Suggesting christianity is to blame rather than a nutcase requires ignoring these little facts.

Normally, I would agree with you--my OP was intentionally overstated.
I also noticed that the anti-abortionists were quick to "Condemn", but their main thoughts were

Quote:

"One of my main concerns here is that the Obama administration and Democratic leaders don't make the same mistake that the Clinton administration made, and don't use this isolated episode to demonize an entire movement and try to take this tragedy for political gain," said Mahoney. "If they overreach, then they put pressure on peaceful people who are trying to peacefully change the climate on abortion in a way that President Obama talked about at Notre Dame."

Who is using what for political gain?

[Allen773]

This is a good reminder of the very real danger of far right-wing fanatics in America.

[Undesired Walrus]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Thanks for proving my point about how an atheiest/seclurists can be just as close minded and bigoted as a religious fundy.

Can't say I've seen many Atheists throwing acid into the faces of schoolgirls or murdering abortion doctors in the name of Atheism.

[KodeBlue]

Originally Posted by LostAngeles

Until we find that it was some religious whackjob and not a disgruntled employee/business partner or someone who was doing his wife or someone whose wife he was doing or simply random, I'm going to hold off on grumbling about fundies above my normal level of grumbling about fundies.

At this point, it's up there with the guy who blamed the, "towelheads," for the OK City Bombing right after it happened.

Or a guy who found out his girlfriend had had an abortion at Tiller's clinic. Not saying that would be a justifiable motive, but it could be a motive.

[pizzadeliveryninja]

That's christians for you. Utter *********** hypocrites who will murder in their god's name.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by Allen773

This is a good reminder of the very real danger of far right-wing fanatics in America.

It's certainly real. But it is hardly common. It is not only rare compared to other dangers -- terrorism generally kills far fewer people than, say, drunk driving -- but, certainly in the last decade or so, also rare compared to other terrorist threats from other quarters.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by pizzadeliveryninja

That's Christians Muslims for you. Utter *********** hypocrites who will murder in their god's name.

I am not claiming either Christians or Muslims are like that, of course, but I keep wondering: why is the first expression "brave criticism" and the second "bigoed Islamophobia"? Both are equally idiotic and bigoted, if you ask me.

[ThunderChunky]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

I am not claiming either Christians or Muslims are like that, of course, but I keep wondering: why is the first expression "brave criticism" and the second "bigoed Islamophobia"? Both are equally idiotic and bigoted, if you ask me.

Who claimed that it was? Plenty of Muslims murder because of their religion.

[linusrichard]

If you sincerely believe abortion is murder, why wouldn't you do something like this? Unless you were a coward or something. I have to think that any pro-lifer who condemns this either doesn't really believe abortion is murder, or is more concerned about political posturing than about human life. The latter possibility is pretty despicable, and the former one is fine, but it kind of puts the pro-life position on weak footing, a little bit.

[sugarb]

Originally Posted by linusrichard

If you sincerely believe abortion is murder, why wouldn't you do something like this? Unless you were a coward or something. I have to think that any pro-lifer who condemns this either doesn't really believe abortion is murder, or is more concerned about political posturing than about human life. The latter possibility is pretty despicable, and the former one is fine, but it kind of puts the pro-life position on weak footing, a little bit.

Well, that just doesn't make any sense to me. If I am opposed to abortion based on considering it murder, then...to murder someone, anyone, would make me a hypocrite, and put my anti-murder position on weak footing, wouldn't it?

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by pizzadeliveryninja

That's christians for you. Utter *********** hypocrites who will murder in their god's name.

That's funny, I know lots of Christians, and I can't think of a single one of them who'd murder anyone for any reason. I guess I'm incredibly lucky.

One whacko kills an abortionist because he thinks it's God's will (pace, LostAngeles), and you project that onto all Christians.

I suppose when you read in the papers that a guy in the projects killed a pizza delivery guy, you conclude, "That's the coloreds for you. Utter *********** sociopaths who will murder for a couple of bucks."

[KingMerv00]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

(If you're going to use a five-year-old's debating technique, I'm going to use the parent's counterargument.)

Asking "Why?" isn't OK?

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by linusrichard

If you sincerely believe abortion is murder, why wouldn't you do something like this?

Well, for the same reason many people sincerely believe those who disagree with them theologically will go to hell for all eternity, but still don't go on a crusade or jihad or whatever to convert them all by force, even if -- in theory -- saving one soul from eternal punishment is worth any amount of suffering caused on earth in the process.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

Asking "Why?" isn't OK?

Why do you ask?

[linusrichard]

Originally Posted by sugarb

Well, that just doesn't make any sense to me. If I am opposed to abortion based on considering it murder, then...to murder someone, anyone, would make me a hypocrite, and put my anti-murder position on weak footing, wouldn't it?

Let's say you knew a fellow in your neighborhood who would go to the mall or a school or something every weekday with a gun, and take out two or three people. Shoppers, kids, teachers, whatever. Just shoot and kill them. Just a couple a day. And let's say the local police knew about him but, for some reason, they weren't allowed to interfere with what he was doing. It was perfectly legal, for some reason. I don't know why, just make something up.

Now, I believe murder is wrong. But do you think I wouldn't take this malefactor out at the earliest opportunity? Wouldn't you? Wouldn't you be willing to go to prison for the privilege, if that's what it meant? Or would you content yourself to carry signs and vote for politicians who also disapproved (ineffectually) of this guy's little killing sprees?
"Oh but that's different, that person is actually murdering people!"
Well that's what I'm saying - if you think this doctor was actually murdering people, why wouldn't you act to stop that?

[linusrichard]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Well, for the same reason many people sincerely believe those who disagree with them theologically will go to hell for all eternity, but still don't go on a crusade or jihad or whatever to convert them all by force, even if -- in theory -- saving one soul from eternal punishment is worth any amount of suffering caused on earth in the process.

That doesn't answer my question, since I don't believe that those people sincerely believe what they claim to believe either. In other words, telling me that the reason for one thing is the same as the reason for another thing doesn't help me, because I don't know the reason for the other thing either.

[KingMerv00]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Why do you ask?

Because this is a discussion forum. In order to have productive discussions, it is useful to understand one another.

[skepticalbeliever]

Originally Posted by rwguinn

http://www.kwch.com/Global/story.asp?S=10451609

I guess only "life in the womb" is good.
I will never understand these ******** who do this. I wnat to see "Christians" condemn this ****, but I'm not holding my breath.

If you want to see "Christians" condemn this, go to Operationrescue.org. When it returns, you will see that even the most conservative Christians abhor the abomination of shooting a person in church. You can see the same thing on the nrlc.org. Go to lifenews.com and see that all pro life groups condemn this murder.

I have posted about George Tiller extensively on this board. I saw this news go across the ticker on fox news and was stunned. That is the only word I can use to describe my reaction.

What happened in Ks. today was a tragedy. We live in a world where people don't respect life, we see late term abortionists abort viable babies, and we see hypocritical vigilantes kill in the name of protecting life. This shows that we need to build a culture that respects life in order to prevent this from happening in the future.

[Peephole]

Here's what one disgusting anti-abortion group leader had to say:

Quote:

Randall Terry, the founder of anti-abortion group Operation Rescue who led protests against George Tiller's clinic in Wichita, Kansas in 1991, issued a statement about today's killing of the abortion doctor.

"George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller's killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions. Abortion is still murder. And we still must call abortion by its proper name; murder."