"Magic"--what is it good for, exactly?

CplFerro · 14th June 2009, 03:36 PM

I've been reading Alan Moore lately, as he talks about "magic". There's always a certain uncertainty when talking about these things however, and I'm having a time understanding just what "magic" is good for, precisely, exactly. According to Moore a host of artists were involved in the occult, including Salvador Dali, Picasso, Piet Mondrian, and others, that Surrealism was a magical movement, and the like. Theosophy, thaumaturgy, Order of the Golden Dawn, these kinds of names get thrown around by Moore, and yet it's almost like a "god of the gaps" argument, where the "actual stuff" is ever receding behind a mystical curtain of "people doing stuff in robes with wands and chalk". What is the "actual stuff"? What is "magic" good for, exactly?

Aquila · 14th June 2009, 04:12 PM

I'm beginning to ask the same question. What you are talking about is known as "Magick" among occultists and it is supposed to give one insight into one's "spiritual essence", usaully as an alternative to religion, through meditation or ritual - "ceremonial magic(k)". I think it's just psychology. I do find a lot of it seems to be about gaining some sort of self-esteem at best, and at worst, supposed power over others.

I recently discovered this site which has articles, podcasts, books and videos on witchcraft, magic, Freemasonry, hermetisicm etc.

http://www.occultofpersonality.com

I'd like to see Richard Dawkins investigate some of this.

Madalch · 14th June 2009, 04:36 PM

Defeating orcs, undead and dragons.

Blackadder · 14th June 2009, 05:28 PM

without Magic I wouldn't have been able to travel to Japan, USA, Hawaii, and about a dozen other places.

Thank you Richard Garfield, for designing the amazing game of magic the gathering. And thank you Wizards of the Coast for organizing great pro tournaments at A locations all over the world.

Moochie · 14th June 2009, 05:57 PM

I think that "magic," like "religion," evolved, has become, and continues to be a sop to those so downtrodden they cannot take a decisive step in their own behalf.

Instead of joining a church or buying the latest snake oil, people need to gather up their courage and join a group with a common purpose in order to actively work for the betterment of their own and their neighbors' lives. Churches for the most part have abdicated their purpose and have become an instrument of the powerful. There needs to be a new focus on what matters to us as individuals living together in communities created on an ad hoc basis, and largely directed by those with the loudest mouths and deepest pockets.

Together, people can work seeming miracles. Alone, they are fair game to everyone of a mind to exploit them.

The individual joins/creates a family, families become communities, and communities create society. Are you where you really want to be?

Show me a "self-made" man or woman, and I'll show you a liar, just as the "nuclear family" is a lie.

Fairness comes when individuals stop lying, to themselves and to those around them.

M.

Cavemonster · 14th June 2009, 06:10 PM

I'm of the belief that a huge amount of what we do with our lives (those of us who don't need to spend all our time getting food) is managing our very large and cumbersome brains. Brains that were evolved to deal with one kind of world back in our species origins, trained to deal with another kind of world in our childhood, and that must process yet another in our adulthood, that we were neither built nor trained for.

We do this mostly through storytelling, creating a narrative that gives order to a world that has none, that gives an individual an importance and centrality that doesn't exist in an objective sense. In other words, we tell stories.

Fullfilling the American Dream.
Making a dead relative proud.
Doing the work of Christ.
Saving the Planet.
Being a Rock Star.

Everybody does it, and if you don't think you are, then you're just buying into standard, off the rack stories. We do this consciously and unconsciously. With our choice of language, our costumes, our rituals.

I see Alan Moore's take on magic as an attempt to be more deliberate about the story you're creating by appropriating symbold of non-physical power and manipulation of the world (magic) as key symbols of your personal narrative. Using Tarrot cards as a prompt and a structure to examine the issues in your life. Using magic spells as rituals to focus your mind on your goals. It's the same kind of brain management everyone does, but by choosing symbols that are a bit anachronistic, you make the process more deliberate, purposefully separating it from everyday life.

ExMinister · 14th June 2009, 06:46 PM

From Wiki: Moore is a practicing magician who worships a Roman snake deity named Glycon which he acknowledges to be a "complete hoax".[73][74] He describes his understanding of "magic" as fundamentally synonymous with "art": the use of words, images, and actions to affect people and the way they think

That sounds like self-help, positive thinking type stuff, more similar to Anthony Robbins, say, than The Secret, so no supernatural abilities involved, and might have some merit.

Not sure why he calls himself a practicing magician who worships a complete hoax, though.

What's the point?

arthwollipot · 14th June 2009, 06:50 PM

Absolutely nothin'! (say it again)

Apology · 14th June 2009, 08:20 PM

Some people seem to crave ritual in their life. The performance of rituals gives them a feeling of greater significance. I suppose "magic", in this sense, gives people who aren't able to affiliate themselves with a conventional church somewhere to go and perform rituals that make them feel like they're a part of something greater than themselves.

Of course, it gives others who crave money an opportunity to make a fortune off exploiting those who crave a sense of ritual, so its harm far outweighs any good that it provides to the believer.

JohnG · 14th June 2009, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Apology

Of course, it gives others who crave money an opportunity to make a fortune off exploiting those who crave a sense of ritual, so its harm far outweighs any good that it provides to the believer.

Back on the plus side, however, "Magic" is a great Olivia Newton John song.

Bikewer · 14th June 2009, 09:23 PM

We were acquainted with a group who were pretty well involved in Wiccan practices. They would have fairly elaborate ceremonies during the "Sabbats" and do little magical rituals designed to increase health, prosperity, and the like; not much different from praying for the same thing in a church, I suppose.
The one fellow was fond of saying things like "10 commandments? I have over a hundred!"

I agree, it seems to me to cater to the desire for ritual; for a need to feel some sort of power over life's vicissitudes, that sort of thing.
Most of these people seemed to be terrified of attempting "real" magic, as it was supposed to cause bad karma and such.

arthwollipot · 15th June 2009, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Most of these people seemed to be terrified of attempting "real" magic, as it was supposed to cause bad karma and such.

It's all about a particular rule they have that what you send out comes back to you tenfold. So if you "curse" someone to lose $10, it'll cost you $100. Some Wiccans do it anyway and just pay the price, or substitute it for something else (the creepier ones substitute blood for whatever the "cost" of the magick happens to be). Others make sure only to cast "white" magick that is intended only to benefit others, or do not cast magick at all.

Yes, I do have some experience. I almost underwent the Rites to become a high priest once. That was in my phase of dabbling in neopaganism. I got over it.

slingblade · 15th June 2009, 01:50 AM

By The Horned God, inflation affects even The Rule of Three!

arthwollipot · 15th June 2009, 01:57 AM

Originally Posted by slingblade

By The Horned God, inflation affects even The Rule of Three!

Threefold, tenfold... what can I say? It's been a long time since I was anywhere near that crowd.

learner · 16th June 2009, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Absolutely nothin'! (say it again)

"Magic. What is it good for?"

Piscivore · 16th June 2009, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by ExMinister

Not sure why he calls himself a practicing magician who worships a complete hoax, though.

What's the point?

Five tons of flax!

Senex · 16th June 2009, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

I've been reading Alan Moore lately, as he talks about "magic". There's always a certain uncertainty when talking about these things however, and I'm having a time understanding just what "magic" is good for, precisely, exactly.

Define "magic" before asking on this site what it is good for, precisely, exactly.

dropzone · 16th June 2009, 07:13 PM

I asked my wife, "If magic works, why do so many of its practitioners live in double-wides at the trailer park?"

She replied, "Maybe before they started they lived in single-wides."

Yes, after more than three decades I no longer expect a useful answer when I ask her something, but I usually get a quotable one.

Beerina · 17th June 2009, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Senex

Define "magic" before asking on this site what it is good for, precisely, exactly.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic to the natives." - A. C. Clarke

I also subscribe to the inverse: Anything that seems like magic has a perfectly rational explanation.

I'll have to admit, though, sometimes the tricks can be tough. Once saw a guy give my wife and I a "levitating thing" trick, and he stood right next to us. I'll be damned if I could see the string.

Monketey Ghost · 17th June 2009, 09:04 AM

Great for fantasy plots. Who wouldn't want to be able to mix up an eye-of-newt potion to... I dunno, make their balls larger, change ordinary coffee into Folger's Crystals, and a million other cool things?

Senex · 17th June 2009, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

"Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic to the natives." - A. C. Clarke

I don't think the OP was asking about advanced technology.

Quote:

I also subscribe to the inverse: Anything that seems like magic has a perfectly rational explanation.

Why the preface "Anything that seems like magic...?"

Why not All things have a rational explanation?

JollyRoger · 18th June 2009, 10:14 AM

Here is some thing from Psychology class I had in my Grimore folder under WooHoo 9.0 I thought might be interesting

Psychologist explains the reliance on magical beliefs and the paranormal by analyzing the reason why people believe in such things. There are as many reasons as there are believers. Some people might need a little extra fulfillment in their lives; others use magical beliefs to make themselves feel more important or more powerful (a grandiose delusion of sorts). While others use these pseudoscience to help them except things they cannot change, and there are those shady characters who would try using it to separate you from your money, or because it’s in style. Around the late 1800, Harry Houdini offered a $10,000 prize to anyone who he could not prove to be a fake. He investigated a large number of mediums, but never had to pay off his offer. Sound familiar to anyone Others use these beliefs to help make important decision for them. A good example of this is Adolph Hitler who believed in Astrology so much that he actually scheduled major battles according to the positions of the stars and planets during World War II; I think we all know the end of that story.
There is admittedly much to be explained about how the mind works, and still more about our brains capability. There are (they say) parts of the brain we have yet to understand. People have been known to commit acts that seem to violate the laws of physics that govern our vary existence, and produce a persistently unsolvable puzzle to science. Dr Simonton’s visualization technique for fighting cancer is one example. A person listening to a audiotape (if needed) would force themselves to mentally picture the cancer, picture their bodies own white blood cells as a vast army that was put there to eliminate the abnormal cells, seeing the white cells attacking the cancer cells and dragging them off, see the cancer shrinking, and themselves becoming more in tune with life. The result of this? Out of 134 patients who used visualization 100 was still alive to tell this seemingly unbelievable tale. The average survival rate for their type of advanced cancer is 5%, or 7 out of 134. It raised the question if this method worked so well, why ain’t more people using it?
They say if you believe in something hard enough it becomes a reality, at least for the person who believes. Whether it becomes a scientific reality or not, is another story. Sometimes these beliefs have been known to be very useful, other times they have been known to be quit costly, dangerous, or even fatal depending on the depth of the individual’s involvement, and their motivation. Some say if it sounds too good to be true it usually is (vary seldom an inaccurate statement) and no amount of money is going to change that. People who spend money on such thing have a reason, “the question” is the reasons valid, and are you really getting your money’s worth, or are you just buying snake oil from a fly by night vender. Who in turn uses your money to separate more people from their life savings?
What a person perceives as reality is as unique as the individual. Each of us lives in our own reality; overlapping to form our society. Some depend on science while others use faith, still some choose to combine the two, and there are those who are oblivious to the whole concept. If modern science cannot explain it, perhaps it’s not real. However, if you consider that Alchemy (all-chemistry) is the grandfather of chemistry, and today’s science fact is yesterday’s science fiction perhaps there is something to all of this superstitious nonsense after all. The belief in Pseudoscience is seen for some as the belief in things such as Astrology, tarot cards, Astral projection (or as the army likes to call it Remote Viewing) mental telepathy, ESP, Witchcraft, and other types of paranormal nonsense. Some would even include Religion as a type of pseudoscience. They may be frighteningly accurate and at the same time very general (IE one belief or reading fits all). Whether there is actually more too all this then a means of entertainment and profit remains to be scientifically proven. In closing, I am reminded of quote from Phineas Taylor Barnum that may sum up this whole report “Theirs a Sucker Born Every Minute” and perhaps now we realize how easily we can be fooled.

mr_man · 18th June 2009, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

I'm of the belief that a huge amount of what we do with our lives (those of us who don't need to spend all our time getting food) is managing our very large and cumbersome brains.

You sound like Kurt Vonnegut in his book "Galapagos"! And I agree with you.

In Richard Bandler's book "The Structure of Magic", he describes magic as simply something that the user understands completely, and onlookers do not understand at all. In that sense, a very good therapist can use magic powers to restore happiness to a broken individual. The magic powers are gained through extensive research, training, and real-world experience.

I think this is a relevant definition to the majority of today's society, and it's one that's often put to use. A pianist might "work his magic" by playing a prelude by Chopin.

So, "magic" is that stuff that you are capable of giving to the world. It's an ability that you have mastered to the degree where it has BECOME UNIQUE to you. It's the point where you're SO GOOD at playing the piano, that NO ONE in the WORLD can play it "just the same way" you do.

When you really appreciate what that definition means, you start to see that it can apply in all kinds of situations, in all points in history, even where originally a much more murky and mysterious definition held place.

zooterkin · 1st August 2009, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

I've been reading Alan Moore lately, as he talks about "magic". There's always a certain uncertainty when talking about these things however, and I'm having a time understanding just what "magic" is good for, precisely, exactly. According to Moore a host of artists were involved in the occult, including Salvador Dali, Picasso, Piet Mondrian, and others, that Surrealism was a magical movement, and the like. Theosophy, thaumaturgy, Order of the Golden Dawn, these kinds of names get thrown around by Moore, and yet it's almost like a "god of the gaps" argument, where the "actual stuff" is ever receding behind a mystical curtain of "people doing stuff in robes with wands and chalk". What is the "actual stuff"? What is "magic" good for, exactly?

I just listened to the BBC radio programme, Chain Reaction, with Alan Moore being interviewed by Stewart Lee, which was rebroadcast on Radio 7 recently.

The discussion of magic was left to the end, so they didn't go into much detail, but, if I understood him correctly, it's just a way of looking at the world, and is largely to do with language. He referred to Robert Anton Wilson, who apparently tried following a series of different religions. The main finding from this was that if you follow a belief, you find a lot of things which confirm that belief.

Quote:

AM: When I was just about to turn 40 I was reviewing my options and I thought I could have a midlife crisis and just bore everybody senseless by going around saying what's it all about, what's the secret of life. Or I could actually really, really disturb and terrify them (audience laughs) by actually saying yes, I've decided to become a magician. I've decided to become a master sorcerer. That really put them on the spot because it sounds so obviously mad, but they didn't seem to want to argue it with me because I had through it through quite well. I mean, my initial stance was to tell all my friends and loved ones look, I don't know what I'm doing with this, it sounds like it's probably dangerous according to all the literature I've read, 9/10ths of them all end up barmy. So, if it looks like I'm going mad, then perhaps you could kind of pull me out of this. So, they were saying, "Well, how are we going to know?" (audience laughs) I said, good point, good point. The only thing that I could think of was if the standard of my work, or the amount of productivity starts to drop, that is a time to get concerned. That didn't happen.

...
AM: I think yeah. Basically, that's true. If you adopt a belief system, a belief will change your entire way of seeing things.
...

AM: That's wildly optimistic. I suppose the thing with magic is that a lot of it is about writing anyway. To cast a spell, that's a fancy way of saying spelling. Grimoire, the big book of magical secrets, that's a French way of saying grammar. It's all about language and writing. It's all about incantation, all these things. Magic, really, it turns out to just be a continuation of the stuff that I've been doing anyway. Using certain arrangements of words or images to affect people's consciousness.

The full transcript here.

leafman91 · 1st August 2009, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

I'm of the belief that a huge amount of what we do with our lives (those of us who don't need to spend all our time getting food) is managing our very large and cumbersome brains. Brains that were evolved to deal with one kind of world back in our species origins, trained to deal with another kind of world in our childhood, and that must process yet another in our adulthood, that we were neither built nor trained for.

We do this mostly through storytelling, creating a narrative that gives order to a world that has none, that gives an individual an importance and centrality that doesn't exist in an objective sense. In other words, we tell stories.

Fullfilling the American Dream.
Making a dead relative proud.
Doing the work of Christ.
Saving the Planet.
Being a Rock Star.

Everybody does it, and if you don't think you are, then you're just buying into standard, off the rack stories. We do this consciously and unconsciously. With our choice of language, our costumes, our rituals.

I see Alan Moore's take on magic as an attempt to be more deliberate about the story you're creating by appropriating symbold of non-physical power and manipulation of the world (magic) as key symbols of your personal narrative. Using Tarrot cards as a prompt and a structure to examine the issues in your life. Using magic spells as rituals to focus your mind on your goals. It's the same kind of brain management everyone does, but by choosing symbols that are a bit anachronistic, you make the process more deliberate, purposefully separating it from everyday life.

We do seem to like order, don't we?
I do sometimes wonder why that is...

So let me get this straight. Magic, to you, is like reading someone's life story, except you can edit the script?

leafman91 · 1st August 2009, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by JollyRoger

Here is some thing from Psychology class I had in my Grimore folder under WooHoo 9.0 I thought might be interesting

Psychologist explains the reliance on magical beliefs and the paranormal by analyzing the reason why people believe in such things. There are as many reasons as there are believers. Some people might need a little extra fulfillment in their lives; others use magical beliefs to make themselves feel more important or more powerful (a grandiose delusion of sorts). While others use these pseudoscience to help them except things they cannot change, and there are those shady characters who would try using it to separate you from your money, or because it’s in style. Around the late 1800, Harry Houdini offered a $10,000 prize to anyone who he could not prove to be a fake. He investigated a large number of mediums, but never had to pay off his offer. Sound familiar to anyone Others use these beliefs to help make important decision for them. A good example of this is Adolph Hitler who believed in Astrology so much that he actually scheduled major battles according to the positions of the stars and planets during World War II; I think we all know the end of that story.
There is admittedly much to be explained about how the mind works, and still more about our brains capability. There are (they say) parts of the brain we have yet to understand. People have been known to commit acts that seem to violate the laws of physics that govern our vary existence, and produce a persistently unsolvable puzzle to science. Dr Simonton’s visualization technique for fighting cancer is one example. A person listening to a audiotape (if needed) would force themselves to mentally picture the cancer, picture their bodies own white blood cells as a vast army that was put there to eliminate the abnormal cells, seeing the white cells attacking the cancer cells and dragging them off, see the cancer shrinking, and themselves becoming more in tune with life. The result of this? Out of 134 patients who used visualization 100 was still alive to tell this seemingly unbelievable tale. The average survival rate for their type of advanced cancer is 5%, or 7 out of 134. It raised the question if this method worked so well, why ain’t more people using it?
They say if you believe in something hard enough it becomes a reality, at least for the person who believes. Whether it becomes a scientific reality or not, is another story. Sometimes these beliefs have been known to be very useful, other times they have been known to be quit costly, dangerous, or even fatal depending on the depth of the individual’s involvement, and their motivation. Some say if it sounds too good to be true it usually is (vary seldom an inaccurate statement) and no amount of money is going to change that. People who spend money on such thing have a reason, “the question” is the reasons valid, and are you really getting your money’s worth, or are you just buying snake oil from a fly by night vender. Who in turn uses your money to separate more people from their life savings?
What a person perceives as reality is as unique as the individual. Each of us lives in our own reality; overlapping to form our society. Some depend on science while others use faith, still some choose to combine the two, and there are those who are oblivious to the whole concept. If modern science cannot explain it, perhaps it’s not real. However, if you consider that Alchemy (all-chemistry) is the grandfather of chemistry, and today’s science fact is yesterday’s science fiction perhaps there is something to all of this superstitious nonsense after all. The belief in Pseudoscience is seen for some as the belief in things such as Astrology, tarot cards, Astral projection (or as the army likes to call it Remote Viewing) mental telepathy, ESP, Witchcraft, and other types of paranormal nonsense. Some would even include Religion as a type of pseudoscience. They may be frighteningly accurate and at the same time very general (IE one belief or reading fits all). Whether there is actually more too all this then a means of entertainment and profit remains to be scientifically proven. In closing, I am reminded of quote from Phineas Taylor Barnum that may sum up this whole report “Theirs a Sucker Born Every Minute” and perhaps now we realize how easily we can be fooled.

So here's the thing. If magic is really a psychological aid, then have you, by realizing this, pyschologically damaged yourself? If not, then have you really accepted the reality of the non existence of magic? Or does it remain something to theorize upon, a fact you know is there but choose to stay away from. And if magic is a psychological aid, then what are you doing by debunking it? Would you consider it ethical?

Cavemonster · 1st August 2009, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by leafman91

We do seem to like order, don't we?
I do sometimes wonder why that is...

So let me get this straight. Magic, to you, is like reading someone's life story, except you can edit the script?

Well, no, you can only edit your own story.

Think of it this way, when we make decisions like what job to take or what to eat for dinner, we alter the plot of our own story. If all you make are practical decisions, you're only in control of the plot element of your own story.

But there's so much in the mood, and the tone and the language used to tell the story. Moore's take on magic is, among other things, one way of taking charge of those elements of your own story besides the plot.

JollyRoger · 1st August 2009, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by leafman91

So here's the thing. If magic is really a psychological aid, then have you, by realizing this, pyschologically damaged yourself? If not, then have you really accepted the reality of the non existence of magic? Or does it remain something to theorize upon, a fact you know is there but choose to stay away from. And if magic is a psychological aid, then what are you doing by debunking it? Would you consider it ethical?

I don't know that I said its a psychological aid, some of it can be explained threw psychology, some have used it and become a better person for it and some have used it with the opposite effects. their is no scientific evidence that its real and on the other hand some things that are real can not be explained by science.

I was not really trying to debunk it or support it, I was trying to look at it from both sides of the coin. Something I learned in Psychology because some of the questions have no right or wrong answer, so I try to look at the situation from the all points of view offered in the question.

Like for instance they asked is mental illness caused by genetics or environment, they give you an ether or option to answer the question when the answer is either and or

Spektator · 1st August 2009, 12:05 PM

Magic made J.K. Rowling about a bajillion dollars.

JollyRoger · 1st August 2009, 12:07 PM

But magic by definition is an illusion, so what he made money off of was the ability to entertain

zooterkin · 1st August 2009, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by JollyRoger

But magic by definition is an illusion, so what he made money off of was the ability to entertain

He? If you mean J.K. Rowling, Joanne is a she.

dropzone · 1st August 2009, 08:54 PM

I once scoffed that the practicioners of Magic tend to live in double-wide trailers and how was I supposed to follow such "losers." Mine wife pointed out that they may have previously lived in single-wides.

zooterkin · 2nd August 2009, 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by dropzone

I once scoffed that the practicioners of Magic tend to live in double-wide trailers and how was I supposed to follow such "losers." Mine wife pointed out that they may have previously lived in single-wides.

I'm guessing that you've been married for more than three decades; I bet you no longer expect a useful answer when you ask her something, but that you usually get a quotable one.

leafman91 · 2nd August 2009, 03:52 AM

Do you believe in magic,
In a young girl's heart
How the music can free her,
Whenever it starts
'Cos it's magic....

leafman91 · 2nd August 2009, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

Five tons of flax!

That too, I guess.

theMark · 2nd August 2009, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

What is "magic" good for, exactly?

Serious answer (or at least my opinion): Control, or the illusion thereof.

Stupid answer: If done right, it's an institutionalized chance to ogle virgins

Maia · 2nd August 2009, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by JollyRoger
But magic by definition is an illusion, so what he made money off of was the ability to entertain
He? If you mean J.K. Rowling, Joanne is a she.
[/quote]

Well, I think JKR's magical ability enabled her to publish an unspeakably sucky, desperately-in-need-of-a-good-editor, devastatingly dreadful disappointment of a conclusion to the series, which managed to cast an evil spell over the entire reading world despite innumerable fatal problems with plot, theme, narrative, storyline, characterizations, grammar, and sentence construction, each of which I will now analyze in agonizing detail--

(The nice men in the white coats finally catch Maia and get the straitjacket on before the 900 page literary criticism rant about the seventh HP book even has a chance to get started.)

Ahem. Anyway, as I was saying, the wondrous wellspring of human creativity which lies within us all is the very definition of magic.

I Ratant · 2nd August 2009, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Maia

...
Ahem. Anyway, as I was saying, the wondrous wellspring of human creativity which lies within us all is the very definition of magic.

.
Well said.
Bravo!

whatthebutlersaw · 4th August 2009, 02:44 AM

Once upon a time I had a live-in boyfriend (a huge majority of my friends and aquaintances are some kind of woo. I seem to attract them. The deal is that no one proselytises and we connect over other things. Mainly history and arts.) who was one of those magick-nutters. He was a member of OTO and talked profusively about Golden Dawn and Alistair Crowley and LaVey. (Yawn, they _are_ predictable, aren't they?)

But he had other qualities, so we were together for more than two years, and during this time I saw some of the things he got up to, sewed him a robe, bought him a chalice for his birthday and learned to use a tarot for the hell of it, and also read lots of his books and stuff. (They do make for exellent fodder when writing creatively for fun) One of the more entertaining reads was LaVey's "The Satanic Witch" - I had a friend who also read it and took it a little more seriously than I.

Basically, it is a book about pandering to little oddities and perversions in order to gain the attention of men, from which the "Witch" is supposed to draw "energy" and generally feel better about herself, but above all get loads of nookie. Things like figuring your type and play to it. Figuring out if your attempted victim was sub or dom and play to that etc. Basically just a more sombre version of The Rules, for gals who prefer whoopie to wedding bells. So I gathered.

My friend took some of the advice to the point where she would no longer keep personal hygiene since, according to LaVey, men get turned on by a sense of filth. (I kid you not. I don't hang with this woman anymore, but as far as I know she is still not even on nodding terms with Mr Antiperspirant) By following these rules, she does indeed attract some men - although not the ones she would like.

As for "magick", to me it looks like a collection of "Headology" or a version of the old story of "Soup from a Rock" (It's a nail in Scandinavia). This method will get you anything you want - just add hard work/putting yourself out there/a brave investment.

It usually goes like this:
1: Do this ritual/Create this amulet.
2: Work hard to achieve the goal the ritual was for.
3: Did you achieve your goal?
Yes: The ritual won you the goal.
No : Start over from point 1.

It's a spoonfull of sugar that lets the medicine go down. Sukrose and akwa.

Ersby · 4th August 2009, 07:33 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2000/...atures.fiction

An old interview from 2000 where Alan Moore talks about magic.

14th June 2009, 03:36 PM	#1
CplFerro Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,383	"Magic"--what is it good for, exactly? I've been reading Alan Moore lately, as he talks about "magic". There's always a certain uncertainty when talking about these things however, and I'm having a time understanding just what "magic" is good for, precisely, exactly. According to Moore a host of artists were involved in the occult, including Salvador Dali, Picasso, Piet Mondrian, and others, that Surrealism was a magical movement, and the like. Theosophy, thaumaturgy, Order of the Golden Dawn, these kinds of names get thrown around by Moore, and yet it's almost like a "god of the gaps" argument, where the "actual stuff" is ever receding behind a mystical curtain of "people doing stuff in robes with wands and chalk". What is the "actual stuff"? What is "magic" good for, exactly?

14th June 2009, 04:36 PM	#3
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,704	Defeating orcs, undead and dragons.
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

14th June 2009, 05:28 PM	#4
Blackadder Muse Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Netherlands Posts: 729	without Magic I wouldn't have been able to travel to Japan, USA, Hawaii, and about a dozen other places. Thank you Richard Garfield, for designing the amazing game of magic the gathering. And thank you Wizards of the Coast for organizing great pro tournaments at A locations all over the world.
	__________________ "Instead of controlling the environment for the benefit of the population, maybe we should control the population to ensure the survival of our environment." Sir David Attenborough.

14th June 2009, 05:57 PM	#5
Moochie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,495	I think that "magic," like "religion," evolved, has become, and continues to be a sop to those so downtrodden they cannot take a decisive step in their own behalf. Instead of joining a church or buying the latest snake oil, people need to gather up their courage and join a group with a common purpose in order to actively work for the betterment of their own and their neighbors' lives. Churches for the most part have abdicated their purpose and have become an instrument of the powerful. There needs to be a new focus on what matters to us as individuals living together in communities created on an ad hoc basis, and largely directed by those with the loudest mouths and deepest pockets. Together, people can work seeming miracles. Alone, they are fair game to everyone of a mind to exploit them. The individual joins/creates a family, families become communities, and communities create society. Are you where you really want to be? Show me a "self-made" man or woman, and I'll show you a liar, just as the "nuclear family" is a lie. Fairness comes when individuals stop lying, to themselves and to those around them. M.
Moochie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,495	__________________

14th June 2009, 06:10 PM	#6
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	I'm of the belief that a huge amount of what we do with our lives (those of us who don't need to spend all our time getting food) is managing our very large and cumbersome brains. Brains that were evolved to deal with one kind of world back in our species origins, trained to deal with another kind of world in our childhood, and that must process yet another in our adulthood, that we were neither built nor trained for. We do this mostly through storytelling, creating a narrative that gives order to a world that has none, that gives an individual an importance and centrality that doesn't exist in an objective sense. In other words, we tell stories. Fullfilling the American Dream. Making a dead relative proud. Doing the work of Christ. Saving the Planet. Being a Rock Star. Everybody does it, and if you don't think you are, then you're just buying into standard, off the rack stories. We do this consciously and unconsciously. With our choice of language, our costumes, our rituals. I see Alan Moore's take on magic as an attempt to be more deliberate about the story you're creating by appropriating symbold of non-physical power and manipulation of the world (magic) as key symbols of your personal narrative. Using Tarrot cards as a prompt and a structure to examine the issues in your life. Using magic spells as rituals to focus your mind on your goals. It's the same kind of brain management everyone does, but by choosing symbols that are a bit anachronistic, you make the process more deliberate, purposefully separating it from everyday life.
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

14th June 2009, 04:12 PM	#2
Aquila Muse Join Date: May 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 631	I'm beginning to ask the same question. What you are talking about is known as "Magick" among occultists and it is supposed to give one insight into one's "spiritual essence", usaully as an alternative to religion, through meditation or ritual - "ceremonial magic(k)". I think it's just psychology. I do find a lot of it seems to be about gaining some sort of self-esteem at best, and at worst, supposed power over others. I recently discovered this site which has articles, podcasts, books and videos on witchcraft, magic, Freemasonry, hermetisicm etc. http://www.occultofpersonality.com I'd like to see Richard Dawkins investigate some of this.

14th June 2009, 06:46 PM	#7
ExMinister RSL Acolyte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,749	From Wiki: Moore is a practicing magician who worships a Roman snake deity named Glycon which he acknowledges to be a "complete hoax".[73][74] He describes his understanding of "magic" as fundamentally synonymous with "art": the use of words, images, and actions to affect people and the way they think That sounds like self-help, positive thinking type stuff, more similar to Anthony Robbins, say, than The Secret, so no supernatural abilities involved, and might have some merit. Not sure why he calls himself a practicing magician who worships a complete hoax, though. What's the point?
ExMinister RSL Acolyte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,749	__________________ www.stopsylvia.com

14th June 2009, 06:50 PM	#8
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,011	Absolutely nothin'! (say it again)
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

14th June 2009, 08:20 PM	#9
Apology Reader's of the Boden Codex Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,580	Some people seem to crave ritual in their life. The performance of rituals gives them a feeling of greater significance. I suppose "magic", in this sense, gives people who aren't able to affiliate themselves with a conventional church somewhere to go and perform rituals that make them feel like they're a part of something greater than themselves. Of course, it gives others who crave money an opportunity to make a fortune off exploiting those who crave a sense of ritual, so its harm far outweighs any good that it provides to the believer.
	__________________ "When I began to talk with him, I could not help thinking that he was not really wise, although he was thought wise by many, and wiser still by himself; and I went and tried to explain to him that he thought himself wise, but was not really wise; and the consequence was that he hated me, and his enmity was shared by several who were present and heard me." - Plato, Apology "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

14th June 2009, 08:36 PM	#10
JohnG Pedantic Bore Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Abandon All Hope Posts: 4,398	Originally Posted by Apology Of course, it gives others who crave money an opportunity to make a fortune off exploiting those who crave a sense of ritual, so its harm far outweighs any good that it provides to the believer. Back on the plus side, however, "Magic" is a great Olivia Newton John song.
	__________________ Do not weep. Do not wax indignant. Understand. - Baruch Spinoza You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -Harlan Ellison

14th June 2009, 09:23 PM	#11
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,528	We were acquainted with a group who were pretty well involved in Wiccan practices. They would have fairly elaborate ceremonies during the "Sabbats" and do little magical rituals designed to increase health, prosperity, and the like; not much different from praying for the same thing in a church, I suppose. The one fellow was fond of saying things like "10 commandments? I have over a hundred!" I agree, it seems to me to cater to the desire for ritual; for a need to feel some sort of power over life's vicissitudes, that sort of thing. Most of these people seemed to be terrified of attempting "real" magic, as it was supposed to cause bad karma and such.

15th June 2009, 01:39 AM	#12
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,011	Originally Posted by Bikewer Most of these people seemed to be terrified of attempting "real" magic, as it was supposed to cause bad karma and such. It's all about a particular rule they have that what you send out comes back to you tenfold. So if you "curse" someone to lose $10, it'll cost you $100. Some Wiccans do it anyway and just pay the price, or substitute it for something else (the creepier ones substitute blood for whatever the "cost" of the magick happens to be). Others make sure only to cast "white" magick that is intended only to benefit others, or do not cast magick at all. Yes, I do have some experience. I almost underwent the Rites to become a high priest once. That was in my phase of dabbling in neopaganism. I got over it.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

15th June 2009, 01:50 AM	#13
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	By The Horned God, inflation affects even The Rule of Three!
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

15th June 2009, 01:57 AM	#14
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,011	Originally Posted by slingblade By The Horned God, inflation affects even The Rule of Three! Threefold, tenfold... what can I say? It's been a long time since I was anywhere near that crowd.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

16th June 2009, 03:16 PM	#15
learner Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2008 Location: dorset england Posts: 1,589	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Absolutely nothin'! (say it again) "Magic. What is it good for?"
	__________________ "I would give my right arm to be ambidextrous" - My Mate Dave " How do you expect me to use my initiative if you wont tell me what to do?" - Dave again

16th June 2009, 03:30 PM	#16
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,462	Originally Posted by ExMinister Not sure why he calls himself a practicing magician who worships a complete hoax, though. What's the point? Five tons of flax!
	__________________ Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

16th June 2009, 04:23 PM	#17
Senex Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 3,548	Originally Posted by CplFerro I've been reading Alan Moore lately, as he talks about "magic". There's always a certain uncertainty when talking about these things however, and I'm having a time understanding just what "magic" is good for, precisely, exactly. Define "magic" before asking on this site what it is good for, precisely, exactly.
	__________________ I am the one who knocks! Walter White Last edited by Senex; 16th June 2009 at 04:26 PM.

16th June 2009, 07:13 PM	#18
dropzone Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,666	I asked my wife, "If magic works, why do so many of its practitioners live in double-wides at the trailer park?" She replied, "Maybe before they started they lived in single-wides." Yes, after more than three decades I no longer expect a useful answer when I ask her something, but I usually get a quotable one.

17th June 2009, 09:01 AM	#19
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Senex Define "magic" before asking on this site what it is good for, precisely, exactly. "Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic to the natives." - A. C. Clarke I also subscribe to the inverse: Anything that seems like magic has a perfectly rational explanation. I'll have to admit, though, sometimes the tricks can be tough. Once saw a guy give my wife and I a "levitating thing" trick, and he stood right next to us. I'll be damned if I could see the string.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

17th June 2009, 09:04 AM	#20
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	Great for fantasy plots. Who wouldn't want to be able to mix up an eye-of-newt potion to... I dunno, make their balls larger, change ordinary coffee into Folger's Crystals, and a million other cool things?
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

17th June 2009, 09:53 AM	#21
Senex Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 3,548	Originally Posted by Beerina "Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic to the natives." - A. C. Clarke I don't think the OP was asking about advanced technology. Quote: I also subscribe to the inverse: Anything that seems like magic has a perfectly rational explanation. Why the preface "Anything that seems like magic...?" Why not All things have a rational explanation?
	__________________ I am the one who knocks! Walter White

18th June 2009, 10:14 AM	#22
JollyRoger Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Buggery's Island Posts: 543	PSEUDOSCIENCE Judge for your self Here is some thing from Psychology class I had in my Grimore folder under WooHoo 9.0 I thought might be interesting Psychologist explains the reliance on magical beliefs and the paranormal by analyzing the reason why people believe in such things. There are as many reasons as there are believers. Some people might need a little extra fulfillment in their lives; others use magical beliefs to make themselves feel more important or more powerful (a grandiose delusion of sorts). While others use these pseudoscience to help them except things they cannot change, and there are those shady characters who would try using it to separate you from your money, or because it’s in style. Around the late 1800, Harry Houdini offered a $10,000 prize to anyone who he could not prove to be a fake. He investigated a large number of mediums, but never had to pay off his offer. Sound familiar to anyone Others use these beliefs to help make important decision for them. A good example of this is Adolph Hitler who believed in Astrology so much that he actually scheduled major battles according to the positions of the stars and planets during World War II; I think we all know the end of that story. There is admittedly much to be explained about how the mind works, and still more about our brains capability. There are (they say) parts of the brain we have yet to understand. People have been known to commit acts that seem to violate the laws of physics that govern our vary existence, and produce a persistently unsolvable puzzle to science. Dr Simonton’s visualization technique for fighting cancer is one example. A person listening to a audiotape (if needed) would force themselves to mentally picture the cancer, picture their bodies own white blood cells as a vast army that was put there to eliminate the abnormal cells, seeing the white cells attacking the cancer cells and dragging them off, see the cancer shrinking, and themselves becoming more in tune with life. The result of this? Out of 134 patients who used visualization 100 was still alive to tell this seemingly unbelievable tale. The average survival rate for their type of advanced cancer is 5%, or 7 out of 134. It raised the question if this method worked so well, why ain’t more people using it? They say if you believe in something hard enough it becomes a reality, at least for the person who believes. Whether it becomes a scientific reality or not, is another story. Sometimes these beliefs have been known to be very useful, other times they have been known to be quit costly, dangerous, or even fatal depending on the depth of the individual’s involvement, and their motivation. Some say if it sounds too good to be true it usually is (vary seldom an inaccurate statement) and no amount of money is going to change that. People who spend money on such thing have a reason, “the question” is the reasons valid, and are you really getting your money’s worth, or are you just buying snake oil from a fly by night vender. Who in turn uses your money to separate more people from their life savings? What a person perceives as reality is as unique as the individual. Each of us lives in our own reality; overlapping to form our society. Some depend on science while others use faith, still some choose to combine the two, and there are those who are oblivious to the whole concept. If modern science cannot explain it, perhaps it’s not real. However, if you consider that Alchemy (all-chemistry) is the grandfather of chemistry, and today’s science fact is yesterday’s science fiction perhaps there is something to all of this superstitious nonsense after all. The belief in Pseudoscience is seen for some as the belief in things such as Astrology, tarot cards, Astral projection (or as the army likes to call it Remote Viewing) mental telepathy, ESP, Witchcraft, and other types of paranormal nonsense. Some would even include Religion as a type of pseudoscience. They may be frighteningly accurate and at the same time very general (IE one belief or reading fits all). Whether there is actually more too all this then a means of entertainment and profit remains to be scientifically proven. In closing, I am reminded of quote from Phineas Taylor Barnum that may sum up this whole report “Theirs a Sucker Born Every Minute” and perhaps now we realize how easily we can be fooled.
	__________________ The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed. Albert Einstein Last edited by JollyRoger; 18th June 2009 at 11:18 AM.

18th June 2009, 11:00 AM	#23
mr_man New Blood Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1	Originally Posted by Cavemonster I'm of the belief that a huge amount of what we do with our lives (those of us who don't need to spend all our time getting food) is managing our very large and cumbersome brains. You sound like Kurt Vonnegut in his book "Galapagos"! And I agree with you. In Richard Bandler's book "The Structure of Magic", he describes magic as simply something that the user understands completely, and onlookers do not understand at all. In that sense, a very good therapist can use magic powers to restore happiness to a broken individual. The magic powers are gained through extensive research, training, and real-world experience. I think this is a relevant definition to the majority of today's society, and it's one that's often put to use. A pianist might "work his magic" by playing a prelude by Chopin. So, "magic" is that stuff that you are capable of giving to the world. It's an ability that you have mastered to the degree where it has BECOME UNIQUE to you. It's the point where you're SO GOOD at playing the piano, that NO ONE in the WORLD can play it "just the same way" you do. When you really appreciate what that definition means, you start to see that it can apply in all kinds of situations, in all points in history, even where originally a much more murky and mysterious definition held place.
mr_man New Blood Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1

1st August 2009, 03:11 AM	#24
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,585	Originally Posted by CplFerro I've been reading Alan Moore lately, as he talks about "magic". There's always a certain uncertainty when talking about these things however, and I'm having a time understanding just what "magic" is good for, precisely, exactly. According to Moore a host of artists were involved in the occult, including Salvador Dali, Picasso, Piet Mondrian, and others, that Surrealism was a magical movement, and the like. Theosophy, thaumaturgy, Order of the Golden Dawn, these kinds of names get thrown around by Moore, and yet it's almost like a "god of the gaps" argument, where the "actual stuff" is ever receding behind a mystical curtain of "people doing stuff in robes with wands and chalk". What is the "actual stuff"? What is "magic" good for, exactly? I just listened to the BBC radio programme, Chain Reaction, with Alan Moore being interviewed by Stewart Lee, which was rebroadcast on Radio 7 recently. The discussion of magic was left to the end, so they didn't go into much detail, but, if I understood him correctly, it's just a way of looking at the world, and is largely to do with language. He referred to Robert Anton Wilson, who apparently tried following a series of different religions. The main finding from this was that if you follow a belief, you find a lot of things which confirm that belief. Quote: AM: When I was just about to turn 40 I was reviewing my options and I thought I could have a midlife crisis and just bore everybody senseless by going around saying what's it all about, what's the secret of life. Or I could actually really, really disturb and terrify them (audience laughs) by actually saying yes, I've decided to become a magician. I've decided to become a master sorcerer. That really put them on the spot because it sounds so obviously mad, but they didn't seem to want to argue it with me because I had through it through quite well. I mean, my initial stance was to tell all my friends and loved ones look, I don't know what I'm doing with this, it sounds like it's probably dangerous according to all the literature I've read, 9/10ths of them all end up barmy. So, if it looks like I'm going mad, then perhaps you could kind of pull me out of this. So, they were saying, "Well, how are we going to know?" (audience laughs) I said, good point, good point. The only thing that I could think of was if the standard of my work, or the amount of productivity starts to drop, that is a time to get concerned. That didn't happen. ... AM: I think yeah. Basically, that's true. If you adopt a belief system, a belief will change your entire way of seeing things. ... AM: That's wildly optimistic. I suppose the thing with magic is that a lot of it is about writing anyway. To cast a spell, that's a fancy way of saying spelling. Grimoire, the big book of magical secrets, that's a French way of saying grammar. It's all about language and writing. It's all about incantation, all these things. Magic, really, it turns out to just be a continuation of the stuff that I've been doing anyway. Using certain arrangements of words or images to affect people's consciousness. The full transcript here.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Last edited by zooterkin; 1st August 2009 at 03:32 AM. Reason: ,

1st August 2009, 03:30 AM	#25
leafman91 Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: England.Weather isn't great in England Posts: 371	Originally Posted by Cavemonster I'm of the belief that a huge amount of what we do with our lives (those of us who don't need to spend all our time getting food) is managing our very large and cumbersome brains. Brains that were evolved to deal with one kind of world back in our species origins, trained to deal with another kind of world in our childhood, and that must process yet another in our adulthood, that we were neither built nor trained for. We do this mostly through storytelling, creating a narrative that gives order to a world that has none, that gives an individual an importance and centrality that doesn't exist in an objective sense. In other words, we tell stories. Fullfilling the American Dream. Making a dead relative proud. Doing the work of Christ. Saving the Planet. Being a Rock Star. Everybody does it, and if you don't think you are, then you're just buying into standard, off the rack stories. We do this consciously and unconsciously. With our choice of language, our costumes, our rituals. I see Alan Moore's take on magic as an attempt to be more deliberate about the story you're creating by appropriating symbold of non-physical power and manipulation of the world (magic) as key symbols of your personal narrative. Using Tarrot cards as a prompt and a structure to examine the issues in your life. Using magic spells as rituals to focus your mind on your goals. It's the same kind of brain management everyone does, but by choosing symbols that are a bit anachronistic, you make the process more deliberate, purposefully separating it from everyday life. We do seem to like order, don't we? I do sometimes wonder why that is... So let me get this straight. Magic, to you, is like reading someone's life story, except you can edit the script?
	__________________ 'Fish pay attention to the moon?'- The Chemical Brothers

1st August 2009, 03:42 AM	#26
leafman91 Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: England.Weather isn't great in England Posts: 371	Originally Posted by JollyRoger Here is some thing from Psychology class I had in my Grimore folder under WooHoo 9.0 I thought might be interesting Psychologist explains the reliance on magical beliefs and the paranormal by analyzing the reason why people believe in such things. There are as many reasons as there are believers. Some people might need a little extra fulfillment in their lives; others use magical beliefs to make themselves feel more important or more powerful (a grandiose delusion of sorts). While others use these pseudoscience to help them except things they cannot change, and there are those shady characters who would try using it to separate you from your money, or because it’s in style. Around the late 1800, Harry Houdini offered a $10,000 prize to anyone who he could not prove to be a fake. He investigated a large number of mediums, but never had to pay off his offer. Sound familiar to anyone Others use these beliefs to help make important decision for them. A good example of this is Adolph Hitler who believed in Astrology so much that he actually scheduled major battles according to the positions of the stars and planets during World War II; I think we all know the end of that story. There is admittedly much to be explained about how the mind works, and still more about our brains capability. There are (they say) parts of the brain we have yet to understand. People have been known to commit acts that seem to violate the laws of physics that govern our vary existence, and produce a persistently unsolvable puzzle to science. Dr Simonton’s visualization technique for fighting cancer is one example. A person listening to a audiotape (if needed) would force themselves to mentally picture the cancer, picture their bodies own white blood cells as a vast army that was put there to eliminate the abnormal cells, seeing the white cells attacking the cancer cells and dragging them off, see the cancer shrinking, and themselves becoming more in tune with life. The result of this? Out of 134 patients who used visualization 100 was still alive to tell this seemingly unbelievable tale. The average survival rate for their type of advanced cancer is 5%, or 7 out of 134. It raised the question if this method worked so well, why ain’t more people using it? They say if you believe in something hard enough it becomes a reality, at least for the person who believes. Whether it becomes a scientific reality or not, is another story. Sometimes these beliefs have been known to be very useful, other times they have been known to be quit costly, dangerous, or even fatal depending on the depth of the individual’s involvement, and their motivation. Some say if it sounds too good to be true it usually is (vary seldom an inaccurate statement) and no amount of money is going to change that. People who spend money on such thing have a reason, “the question” is the reasons valid, and are you really getting your money’s worth, or are you just buying snake oil from a fly by night vender. Who in turn uses your money to separate more people from their life savings? What a person perceives as reality is as unique as the individual. Each of us lives in our own reality; overlapping to form our society. Some depend on science while others use faith, still some choose to combine the two, and there are those who are oblivious to the whole concept. If modern science cannot explain it, perhaps it’s not real. However, if you consider that Alchemy (all-chemistry) is the grandfather of chemistry, and today’s science fact is yesterday’s science fiction perhaps there is something to all of this superstitious nonsense after all. The belief in Pseudoscience is seen for some as the belief in things such as Astrology, tarot cards, Astral projection (or as the army likes to call it Remote Viewing) mental telepathy, ESP, Witchcraft, and other types of paranormal nonsense. Some would even include Religion as a type of pseudoscience. They may be frighteningly accurate and at the same time very general (IE one belief or reading fits all). Whether there is actually more too all this then a means of entertainment and profit remains to be scientifically proven. In closing, I am reminded of quote from Phineas Taylor Barnum that may sum up this whole report “Theirs a Sucker Born Every Minute” and perhaps now we realize how easily we can be fooled. So here's the thing. If magic is really a psychological aid, then have you, by realizing this, pyschologically damaged yourself? If not, then have you really accepted the reality of the non existence of magic? Or does it remain something to theorize upon, a fact you know is there but choose to stay away from. And if magic is a psychological aid, then what are you doing by debunking it? Would you consider it ethical?
	__________________ 'Fish pay attention to the moon?'- The Chemical Brothers

1st August 2009, 05:00 AM	#27
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	Originally Posted by leafman91 We do seem to like order, don't we? I do sometimes wonder why that is... So let me get this straight. Magic, to you, is like reading someone's life story, except you can edit the script? Well, no, you can only edit your own story. Think of it this way, when we make decisions like what job to take or what to eat for dinner, we alter the plot of our own story. If all you make are practical decisions, you're only in control of the plot element of your own story. But there's so much in the mood, and the tone and the language used to tell the story. Moore's take on magic is, among other things, one way of taking charge of those elements of your own story besides the plot.
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,916	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

1st August 2009, 12:02 PM	#28
JollyRoger Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Buggery's Island Posts: 543	Originally Posted by leafman91 So here's the thing. If magic is really a psychological aid, then have you, by realizing this, pyschologically damaged yourself? If not, then have you really accepted the reality of the non existence of magic? Or does it remain something to theorize upon, a fact you know is there but choose to stay away from. And if magic is a psychological aid, then what are you doing by debunking it? Would you consider it ethical? I don't know that I said its a psychological aid, some of it can be explained threw psychology, some have used it and become a better person for it and some have used it with the opposite effects. their is no scientific evidence that its real and on the other hand some things that are real can not be explained by science. I was not really trying to debunk it or support it, I was trying to look at it from both sides of the coin. Something I learned in Psychology because some of the questions have no right or wrong answer, so I try to look at the situation from the all points of view offered in the question. Like for instance they asked is mental illness caused by genetics or environment, they give you an ether or option to answer the question when the answer is either and or
	__________________ The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed. Albert Einstein Last edited by JollyRoger; 1st August 2009 at 12:04 PM.

1st August 2009, 12:05 PM	#29
Spektator Dog Who Laughs Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,319	Magic made J.K. Rowling about a bajillion dollars.
	__________________ Anyone who is telling the truth does not type complete sentences all in capital letters.

1st August 2009, 12:07 PM	#30
JollyRoger Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Buggery's Island Posts: 543	But magic by definition is an illusion, so what he made money off of was the ability to entertain
	__________________ The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed. Albert Einstein

1st August 2009, 12:25 PM	#31
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,585	Originally Posted by JollyRoger But magic by definition is an illusion, so what he made money off of was the ability to entertain He? If you mean J.K. Rowling, Joanne is a she.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Last edited by zooterkin; 1st August 2009 at 12:26 PM.

1st August 2009, 08:54 PM	#32
dropzone Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,666	I once scoffed that the practicioners of Magic tend to live in double-wide trailers and how was I supposed to follow such "losers." Mine wife pointed out that they may have previously lived in single-wides.

2nd August 2009, 01:59 AM	#33
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,585	Originally Posted by dropzone I once scoffed that the practicioners of Magic tend to live in double-wide trailers and how was I supposed to follow such "losers." Mine wife pointed out that they may have previously lived in single-wides. I'm guessing that you've been married for more than three decades; I bet you no longer expect a useful answer when you ask her something, but that you usually get a quotable one.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

2nd August 2009, 03:52 AM	#34
leafman91 Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: England.Weather isn't great in England Posts: 371	Do you believe in magic, In a young girl's heart How the music can free her, Whenever it starts 'Cos it's magic....
	__________________ 'Fish pay attention to the moon?'- The Chemical Brothers

2nd August 2009, 04:34 AM	#35
leafman91 Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: England.Weather isn't great in England Posts: 371	Originally Posted by Piscivore Five tons of flax! That too, I guess.
	__________________ 'Fish pay attention to the moon?'- The Chemical Brothers