Matriarchal feminazi totalitarian chinless toffs

Jon_in_london · 3rd December 2003, 06:50 AM

The last all-female college in Oxford has voted to continue to terrorise and oppress innocent men by refusing to allow them an education.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/o...re/3288355.stm

this is 10 years after the last all-male college agreed to admit feminazis.

Tmy · 3rd December 2003, 06:58 AM

I dont mind all girl schools. It draws the ugly chicks away from the co-ed colleges.

El Greco · 3rd December 2003, 07:02 AM

I'll quote someone here, but I don't remember who:

"Feminism is the invention of a very clever man"

So, no worries...

Matabiri · 3rd December 2003, 07:08 AM

There are valid reasons that can be given: some female students are from backgrounds where they are not allowed to mix with men, for example.

Although having someone have to fly back from China to take part in the vote does make it sound like the arguments weren't entirely convincing.

c0rbin · 3rd December 2003, 08:39 AM

I know what a "bird" is, I know what a "tart" is, heck I have met a a "git" or two...but what exactly is a "toff"?

richardm · 3rd December 2003, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by c0rbin
what exactly is a "toff"?

A posh person. Often pretentious and snobbish as well.

Probably from "Toffee nosed", but beats me where that came from.

Edited to add: According to the OED Toffee nosed probably came from Toff, not vice-versa. Toff is perhaps from "Tuft", which was once a popular term for a titled Oxbridge (i.e. Oxford or Cambridge) graduate - presumably from the gold tuft they wore on their hats). So it's quite an appropriate term for Jon to use.

Tony · 3rd December 2003, 08:47 AM

The only thing I object to is the hypocrisy of the "feminists". They piss and moan about the VMA or Augusta being all male, but then turn around and advocate all girl institutions. I guess what they say is true, there is nothing more intolerant than a person demanding tolerance.

Tmy · 3rd December 2003, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
The last all-female college in Oxford has voted to continue to terrorise and oppress innocent men by refusing to allow them an education.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/o...re/3288355.stm

this is 10 years after the last all-male college agreed to admit feminazis.

For years Ive been fighting segregated locker rooms!! As a show of civil disobedience I tried to use the womens soccer team shower room, then those lousy feminazis had me beaten and arrested. NO BOOBIES NO PEACE!!!

Jon_in_london · 3rd December 2003, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri
There are valid reasons that can be given: some female students are from backgrounds where they are not allowed to mix with men, for example.

There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination. If an all-male institution tried to do this there would be an uproar; the feminazis would all have apoplectic fits!

PS: If you insist on sticking to a 'background' where gender discrimination essential, paerhaps you should re-consider living in a free democracy.

Tmy · 3rd December 2003, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination. If an all-male institution tried to do this there would be an uproar; the feminazis would all have apoplectic fits!

PS: If you insist on sticking to a 'background' where gender discrimination essential, paerhaps you should re-consider living in a free democracy.

So you agree wh me. Down with ladies lockerrooms! Down wh segregated bathrooms!!!

3rd December 2003, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination. If an all-male institution tried to do this there would be an uproar; the feminazis would all have apoplectic fits!

PS: If you insist on sticking to a 'background' where gender discrimination essential, paerhaps you should re-consider living in a free democracy.

I think if there is no government money going to the school, and it is a private entity, it should be able to do whatever it feels like w/r/t gender. There are some reasons for schools segregated by sex; students tend to do weird things like study instead of try to impress members of the opposite sex. I'm not for this sort of thing personally, but I can see how someone would reasonably differ.

There are all male schools here. The only ones where there are problems are the public institutions, like (as Tony mentioned) VMI. Other than that it is mainly a political issue. I'd be likely to let the free market decide whether private gender-restricted schools are viable, but I'm a dangerous conservative, so this would be expected.

Matabiri · 3rd December 2003, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination. If an all-male institution tried to do this there would be an uproar; the feminazis would all have apoplectic fits!

PS: If you insist on sticking to a 'background' where gender discrimination essential, paerhaps you should re-consider living in a free democracy.

I think there are reasons: they can help to overcome institutionalised discrimination in the other direction. However, they are only a temporary measure, and in no way a long term solution to any problem.

The 'background' I was hinting at was, for example, countries which strongly discriminate, as some Arabic countries do. If there wasn't an institution like this, these girls would not be allowed to receive the high-quality education it offers. They wouldn't be allowed out of the country, or out of their houses if that's what happens in their house. I didn't say it was right, just that it happens. Saying something is a "free country" doesn't mean that everyone observes those freedoms.

Let me guess, you're white, straight, male and middle class, and can't understand what everyone else keeps complaining about?

Jon_in_london · 3rd December 2003, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri

I think there are reasons: they can help to overcome institutionalised discrimination in the other direction.

Let me guess, you're white, straight, male and middle class, and can't understand what everyone else keeps complaining about?

In other words, white straight middle-class people should shut the f-ck up when we get shafted? Discrimination based on anything except merit is a traversty.

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri

The 'background' I was hinting at was, for example, countries which strongly discriminate, as some Arabic countries do.

Arabs should be forced to obey the laws of the UK and the EU just like everyone else. Or else.

Matabiri · 3rd December 2003, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

In other words, white straight middle-class people should shut the f-ck up when we get shafted? Discrimination based on anything except merit is a traversty.

Arabs should be forced to obey the laws of the UK and the EU just like everyone else. Or else.

Exactly how are this group of women shafting you?

Have you done any travelling? Do you realise how incredibly lucky we are, living in this country?

Jon_in_london · 3rd December 2003, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri

Exactly how are this group of women shafting you?

Have you done any travelling? Do you realise how incredibly lucky we are, living in this country?

By denying me the chance to study at 'their' institution.

Yes, and I want to keep it that way for everybody, even if they are white, male and middle class.

Grammatron · 3rd December 2003, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri

Exactly how are this group of women shafting you?

Have you done any travelling? Do you realise how incredibly lucky we are, living in this country?

I don't live in UK but since I grew up in the former USSR I know how lucky I am to be living in the USA (which I think freedom-wise is pretty much the same as UK). I am all for people doing whatever they want with their own property, if they only want to have one-eyed African born Koreans in their private school, more power to them.

However, what I think Jon is objecting to and I share the same belief, is how there is a double standard. When a there is an all male institution that does not allow women there are usually protests, however, there are almost -- and I say almost because odds are there were a few here and there -- never any protests against institution that discriminate against white males. If you are going to have a standard for pure equality than it must apply everywhere, otherwise those groups should just shut up and go away.

Matabiri · 3rd December 2003, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

By denying me the chance to study at 'their' institution.

'Their' institution is part of a much larger institution, which discriminates on merit. Pretty much the only thing St. Hilda's offers is sleeping in a building with no men in it. You don't study at the college, you study at the university.

There was a time when Oxford and Cambridge were utterly male-dominated. The female-only colleges were created to force women into the universities. Their mission is almost accomplished (as represented by this sort of vote, and colleges like Girton going co-ed) in that their discrimination got women into these establishments in a way that would not have been possible - or at least incredibly intimidating - through the male dominated colleges.

Don't worry. They'll go co-ed within the next decade, I reckon. But for the time being, there is still a market for them.

I'd argue the same way about "gentlemen's clubs". So they discriminate by not allowing women to join? Why would any woman want to join a club of sad old misogynistic men who have nothing to offer but themselves? Why not let them get on with their pathetic self-satisfied game?

Matabiri · 3rd December 2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron

However, what I think Jon is objecting to and I share the same belief, is how there is a double standard. When a there is an all male institution that does not allow women there are usually protests, however, there are almost -- and I say almost because odds are there were a few here and there -- never any protests against institution that discriminate against white males. If you are going to have a standard for pure equality than it must apply everywhere, otherwise those groups should just shut up and go away.

I don't think it is a double standard, in that the way society regards women and men is different. Women often (and this is a vast generalisation, I know) feel safer without men around, particularly in a potentially vulnerable situation like being away from home for the first time etc.

Plus, the point about background still stands. There are many girls, at least at Newnham and New Hall in Cambridge, who come from countries where women are not allowed to mix socially with men. Without these places to stay, they would not be allowed to study here at all.

Being slightly cynical, I suspect quite a bit of pressure comes from this quarter, as overseas students bring in a lot of money... but as I also said, I think that the all-girl colleges will change in the next decade or so. Women are fully integrated into the universities now, and so their mission is over.

Grammatron · 3rd December 2003, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri

I don't think it is a double standard, in that the way society regards women and men is different. Women often (and this is a vast generalisation, I know) feel safer without men around, particularly in a potentially vulnerable situation like being away from home for the first time etc.

Plus, the point about background still stands. There are many girls, at least at Newnham and New Hall in Cambridge, who come from countries where women are not allowed to mix socially with men. Without these places to stay, they would not be allowed to study here at all.

Being slightly cynical, I suspect quite a bit of pressure comes from this quarter, as overseas students bring in a lot of money... but as I also said, I think that the all-girl colleges will change in the next decade or so. Women are fully integrated into the universities now, and so their mission is over.

So as long as one can justify sexism, racism, etc., it's A-Ok?

Tmy · 3rd December 2003, 11:47 AM

Do people think its sexism to have men and womens segregated bathrooms . For most i would say no. Why? Cause we realize there is this real difference tween men and women.

men and women are not the same. So I dont mind "segreation" in some instances (military, dress, bathrooms...)

Tony · 3rd December 2003, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Do people think its sexism to have men and womens segregated bathrooms . For most i would say no. Why? Cause we realize there is this real difference tween men and women.

men and women are not the same. So I dont mind "segreation" in some instances (military, dress, bathrooms...)

No one is saying that's bad. But what is bad is forcing one group to integrate while allowing another to segregate.

It would be like have a girl's bathroom and a boy's/girl's bathroom. Would that be ok with you? Would you want a hot chic you dont know walking in on you talking a dump?

Jon_in_london · 3rd December 2003, 11:59 AM

Hey Tony, Love your sig!

Tmy · 3rd December 2003, 12:00 PM

For the record I think its OK to have all male schools in some situations. But some people are saying "There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination.". NEVER is a strong word.

THe VMI thing. It was my understanding that there really wasnt an all-women equivelent. Thats how the chicks got the rules changed.

Tony · 3rd December 2003, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Hey Tony, Love your sig!

Grammatron · 3rd December 2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
For the record I think its OK to have all male schools in some situations. But some people are saying "There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination.". NEVER is a strong word.

THe VMI thing. It was my understanding that there really wasnt an all-women equivelent. Thats how the chicks got the rules changed.

Ok I'll bite, when is it ok to discriminate based on gender?

P.S.

What's VMI?

Tony · 3rd December 2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
For the record I think its OK to have all male schools in some situations. But some people are saying "There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination.". NEVER is a strong word.

THe VMI thing. It was my understanding that there really wasnt an all-women equivelent. Thats how the chicks got the rules changed.

Ok, now why dont you please answer my question:

Quote:

Would you want a hot chic you dont know walking in on you talking a dump?

Tmy · 3rd December 2003, 12:15 PM

-VMI (Virginia Military Institute) is a state run para military college.

-I dont like anyone walking in when I take a dump. I REALLY dont think the hot chick would like it at all.

-I think its OK to have boys in girls separated in sports. Which is gender discrimination.

Grammatron · 3rd December 2003, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
-VMI (Virginia Military Institute) is a state run para military college.

Thank you.

Quote:

-I think its OK to have boys in girls separated in sports. Which is gender discrimination.

Why is it ok?

El Greco · 3rd December 2003, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
Ok I'll bite, when is it ok to discriminate based on gender?

When we want to channel male hormones into creativity.

Tmy · 3rd December 2003, 12:30 PM

Why is it OK.

Well in sports I think its a matter of safety and fairness. Kinda like why we age disrciminate in sports.

I think that it can be oK to have an all girls school, I also think its ok to have an all boys school. For matters of safety and fairness.

Grammatron · 3rd December 2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Why is it OK.

Well in sports I think its a matter of safety and fairness. Kinda like why we age disrciminate in sports.

I think that it can be oK to have an all girls school, I also think its ok to have an all boys school. For matters of safety and fairness.

That kind of logic can be applied to give excuse to any kind of ism.

I am all for merit, if a person can do something I don't care who they are as long as they are getting it done. If a woman is as physically fit as a man and can pass the same tests to get on a sports team why not let her, because she might get hurt?

Tmy · 3rd December 2003, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron

That kind of logic can be applied to give excuse to any kind of ism.

I am all for merit, if a person can do something I don't care who they are as long as they are getting it done. If a woman is as physically fit as a man and can pass the same tests to get on a sports team why not let her, because she might get hurt?

Id be Ok with a chick on the guys team if she could hang. BUT i dont mind there being a girls team cuase otherwise they'd never get a chance to play.

I could try out for little league and mow down them 10 yr olds. Is it agism to notlet me play little league??

Grammatron · 3rd December 2003, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy

Id be Ok with a chick on the guys team if she could hang. BUT i dont mind there being a girls team cuase otherwise they'd never get a chance to play.

I may not be good enough to play basketball should I also get a team I can play on? Life sucks like that sometime and if you are not good in something there is no logical reason to lower the bar so everyone is happy

Universities are forced to match funding for male and female teams of the same sport even though males need it more since more of them play. Sometimes Universities have teams with no players on them just because they need to have it to get funding.

Quote:

I could try out for little league and mow down them 10 yr olds. Is it agism to notlet me play little league??

Would you want to? Do you derive satisfaction from assaulting kids?

Tmy · 3rd December 2003, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron

I may not be good enough to play basketball should I also get a team I can play on? Life sucks like that sometime and if you are not good in something there is no logical reason to lower the bar so everyone is happy

Universities are forced to match funding for male and female teams of the same sport even though males need it more since more of them play. Sometimes Universities have teams with no players on them just because they need to have it to get funding.

Yknow I sure you could find a baskeball league for your skill level
down at the YMCA.

I think thats a misleading statement about title 9. I have my problems wh title 9 too.

Do you feel that handicapped parking is a greta injustice. Why shoudl the cripples get all the good spots!!!

Grammatron · 3rd December 2003, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy

Yknow I sure you could find a baskeball league for your skill level
down at the YMCA.

I think thats a misleading statement about title 9. I have my problems wh title 9 too.

Do you feel that handicapped parking is a greta injustice. Why shoudl the cripples get all the good spots!!!

And women can't do the same at YMCA?

What the heck do handicapped people have to do with this discussion?

You are slowly moving away from the topic. We are talking about able males and females who should compete equally instead of one side getting special privileges while the other side is forced to abide to the strict code.

Tmy · 3rd December 2003, 01:29 PM

I thought we were talking about if its ever OK to gender discriminate. I said yes. I believed that you and others thought it was never OK to discriminate. That were all equal all the time seperate is always bad.

Grammatron · 3rd December 2003, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
I thought we were talking about if its ever OK to gender discriminate. I said yes. I believed that you and others thought it was never OK to discriminate. That were all equal all the time seperate is always bad.

My point was that you can have seporation w/o it being discrimination. I'm all for private institutions having their own rules, but some groups like the aforementioned feminazis always protest and loby for all male orgs to let women in but never the opposite.

Ed · 3rd December 2003, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination.

er um Victoria's Secret Lingere Show.

Rush Limbaigh in panties

Grammatron · 3rd December 2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed

er um Victoria's Secret Lingere Show.

Rush Limbaigh in panties

What you just did should be illegal.

Matabiri · 3rd December 2003, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron

My point was that you can have seporation w/o it being discrimination. I'm all for private institutions having their own rules, but some groups like the aforementioned feminazis always protest and loby for all male orgs to let women in but never the opposite.

I think using loaded language like "feminazis" should be avoided.

Do you have any evidence that the people running St Hilda's are the same people that have lobbied for all male organisations to let in women?

My point was that women and men ARE regarded differently by society, and that often, women feel threatened by men. This separation is not because men are "inferior" in some way (discrimination) but because the students feel more comfortable in an all-female environment. See the difference?

And I've said that I don't think it's long-term sustainable or "right", but it is a reaction to how society actually works.

3rd December 2003, 06:50 AM	#1
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Matriarchal feminazi totalitarian chinless toffs The last all-female college in Oxford has voted to continue to terrorise and oppress innocent men by refusing to allow them an education. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/o...re/3288355.stm this is 10 years after the last all-male college agreed to admit feminazis.
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

3rd December 2003, 07:02 AM	#3
El Greco Summer worshipper Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Παρά θιν'αλός Posts: 14,307	I'll quote someone here, but I don't remember who: "Feminism is the invention of a very clever man" So, no worries...
	__________________ "Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht "Let it go and come to bed already, El Greco" - MoeFaux

3rd December 2003, 08:39 AM	#5
c0rbin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,806	I know what a "bird" is, I know what a "tart" is, heck I have met a a "git" or two...but what exactly is a "toff"?
c0rbin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,806	__________________ By convention there is color, By convention sweetness, By convention bitterness, But in reality there are atoms and space. --Democritus (c. 400 BCE)

3rd December 2003, 08:45 AM	#6
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by c0rbin what exactly is a "toff"? A posh person. Often pretentious and snobbish as well. Probably from "Toffee nosed", but beats me where that came from. Edited to add: According to the OED Toffee nosed probably came from Toff, not vice-versa. Toff is perhaps from "Tuft", which was once a popular term for a titled Oxbridge (i.e. Oxford or Cambridge) graduate - presumably from the gold tuft they wore on their hats). So it's quite an appropriate term for Jon to use.
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

3rd December 2003, 08:47 AM	#7
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,768	The only thing I object to is the hypocrisy of the "feminists". They piss and moan about the VMA or Augusta being all male, but then turn around and advocate all girl institutions. I guess what they say is true, there is nothing more intolerant than a person demanding tolerance.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

3rd December 2003, 06:58 AM	#2
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	I dont mind all girl schools. It draws the ugly chicks away from the co-ed colleges.

3rd December 2003, 07:08 AM	#4
Matabiri Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,734	There are valid reasons that can be given: some female students are from backgrounds where they are not allowed to mix with men, for example. Although having someone have to fly back from China to take part in the vote does make it sound like the arguments weren't entirely convincing.

3rd December 2003, 08:49 AM	#8
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Re: Matriarchal feminazi totalitarian chinless toffs Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london The last all-female college in Oxford has voted to continue to terrorise and oppress innocent men by refusing to allow them an education. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/o...re/3288355.stm this is 10 years after the last all-male college agreed to admit feminazis. For years Ive been fighting segregated locker rooms!! As a show of civil disobedience I tried to use the womens soccer team shower room, then those lousy feminazis had me beaten and arrested. NO BOOBIES NO PEACE!!!

3rd December 2003, 09:23 AM	#9
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Quote: Originally posted by Matabiri There are valid reasons that can be given: some female students are from backgrounds where they are not allowed to mix with men, for example. There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination. If an all-male institution tried to do this there would be an uproar; the feminazis would all have apoplectic fits! PS: If you insist on sticking to a 'background' where gender discrimination essential, paerhaps you should re-consider living in a free democracy.
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

3rd December 2003, 09:26 AM	#10
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination. If an all-male institution tried to do this there would be an uproar; the feminazis would all have apoplectic fits! PS: If you insist on sticking to a 'background' where gender discrimination essential, paerhaps you should re-consider living in a free democracy. So you agree wh me. Down with ladies lockerrooms! Down wh segregated bathrooms!!!

3rd December 2003, 09:41 AM	#11
Suddenly Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination. If an all-male institution tried to do this there would be an uproar; the feminazis would all have apoplectic fits! PS: If you insist on sticking to a 'background' where gender discrimination essential, paerhaps you should re-consider living in a free democracy. I think if there is no government money going to the school, and it is a private entity, it should be able to do whatever it feels like w/r/t gender. There are some reasons for schools segregated by sex; students tend to do weird things like study instead of try to impress members of the opposite sex. I'm not for this sort of thing personally, but I can see how someone would reasonably differ. There are all male schools here. The only ones where there are problems are the public institutions, like (as Tony mentioned) VMI. Other than that it is mainly a political issue. I'd be likely to let the free market decide whether private gender-restricted schools are viable, but I'm a dangerous conservative, so this would be expected.
Suddenly Guest Posts: n/a

3rd December 2003, 09:46 AM	#12
Matabiri Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,734	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination. If an all-male institution tried to do this there would be an uproar; the feminazis would all have apoplectic fits! PS: If you insist on sticking to a 'background' where gender discrimination essential, paerhaps you should re-consider living in a free democracy. I think there are reasons: they can help to overcome institutionalised discrimination in the other direction. However, they are only a temporary measure, and in no way a long term solution to any problem. The 'background' I was hinting at was, for example, countries which strongly discriminate, as some Arabic countries do. If there wasn't an institution like this, these girls would not be allowed to receive the high-quality education it offers. They wouldn't be allowed out of the country, or out of their houses if that's what happens in their house. I didn't say it was right, just that it happens. Saying something is a "free country" doesn't mean that everyone observes those freedoms. Let me guess, you're white, straight, male and middle class, and can't understand what everyone else keeps complaining about?

3rd December 2003, 09:51 AM	#13
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Quote: Originally posted by Matabiri I think there are reasons: they can help to overcome institutionalised discrimination in the other direction. Let me guess, you're white, straight, male and middle class, and can't understand what everyone else keeps complaining about? In other words, white straight middle-class people should shut the f-ck up when we get shafted? Discrimination based on anything except merit is a traversty. Quote: Originally posted by Matabiri The 'background' I was hinting at was, for example, countries which strongly discriminate, as some Arabic countries do. Arabs should be forced to obey the laws of the UK and the EU just like everyone else. Or else.
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

3rd December 2003, 10:07 AM	#14
Matabiri Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,734	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london In other words, white straight middle-class people should shut the f-ck up when we get shafted? Discrimination based on anything except merit is a traversty. Arabs should be forced to obey the laws of the UK and the EU just like everyone else. Or else. Exactly how are this group of women shafting you? Have you done any travelling? Do you realise how incredibly lucky we are, living in this country?

3rd December 2003, 10:17 AM	#15
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Quote: Originally posted by Matabiri Exactly how are this group of women shafting you? Have you done any travelling? Do you realise how incredibly lucky we are, living in this country? By denying me the chance to study at 'their' institution. Yes, and I want to keep it that way for everybody, even if they are white, male and middle class.
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

3rd December 2003, 10:25 AM	#16
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by Matabiri Exactly how are this group of women shafting you? Have you done any travelling? Do you realise how incredibly lucky we are, living in this country? I don't live in UK but since I grew up in the former USSR I know how lucky I am to be living in the USA (which I think freedom-wise is pretty much the same as UK). I am all for people doing whatever they want with their own property, if they only want to have one-eyed African born Koreans in their private school, more power to them. However, what I think Jon is objecting to and I share the same belief, is how there is a double standard. When a there is an all male institution that does not allow women there are usually protests, however, there are almost -- and I say almost because odds are there were a few here and there -- never any protests against institution that discriminate against white males. If you are going to have a standard for pure equality than it must apply everywhere, otherwise those groups should just shut up and go away.
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446

3rd December 2003, 10:30 AM	#17
Matabiri Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,734	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london By denying me the chance to study at 'their' institution. 'Their' institution is part of a much larger institution, which discriminates on merit. Pretty much the only thing St. Hilda's offers is sleeping in a building with no men in it. You don't study at the college, you study at the university. There was a time when Oxford and Cambridge were utterly male-dominated. The female-only colleges were created to force women into the universities. Their mission is almost accomplished (as represented by this sort of vote, and colleges like Girton going co-ed) in that their discrimination got women into these establishments in a way that would not have been possible - or at least incredibly intimidating - through the male dominated colleges. Don't worry. They'll go co-ed within the next decade, I reckon. But for the time being, there is still a market for them. I'd argue the same way about "gentlemen's clubs". So they discriminate by not allowing women to join? Why would any woman want to join a club of sad old misogynistic men who have nothing to offer but themselves? Why not let them get on with their pathetic self-satisfied game?

3rd December 2003, 10:36 AM	#18
Matabiri Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,734	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron However, what I think Jon is objecting to and I share the same belief, is how there is a double standard. When a there is an all male institution that does not allow women there are usually protests, however, there are almost -- and I say almost because odds are there were a few here and there -- never any protests against institution that discriminate against white males. If you are going to have a standard for pure equality than it must apply everywhere, otherwise those groups should just shut up and go away. I don't think it is a double standard, in that the way society regards women and men is different. Women often (and this is a vast generalisation, I know) feel safer without men around, particularly in a potentially vulnerable situation like being away from home for the first time etc. Plus, the point about background still stands. There are many girls, at least at Newnham and New Hall in Cambridge, who come from countries where women are not allowed to mix socially with men. Without these places to stay, they would not be allowed to study here at all. Being slightly cynical, I suspect quite a bit of pressure comes from this quarter, as overseas students bring in a lot of money... but as I also said, I think that the all-girl colleges will change in the next decade or so. Women are fully integrated into the universities now, and so their mission is over.

3rd December 2003, 10:48 AM	#19
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by Matabiri I don't think it is a double standard, in that the way society regards women and men is different. Women often (and this is a vast generalisation, I know) feel safer without men around, particularly in a potentially vulnerable situation like being away from home for the first time etc. Plus, the point about background still stands. There are many girls, at least at Newnham and New Hall in Cambridge, who come from countries where women are not allowed to mix socially with men. Without these places to stay, they would not be allowed to study here at all. Being slightly cynical, I suspect quite a bit of pressure comes from this quarter, as overseas students bring in a lot of money... but as I also said, I think that the all-girl colleges will change in the next decade or so. Women are fully integrated into the universities now, and so their mission is over. So as long as one can justify sexism, racism, etc., it's A-Ok?
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3rd December 2003, 11:47 AM	#20
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Do people think its sexism to have men and womens segregated bathrooms . For most i would say no. Why? Cause we realize there is this real difference tween men and women. men and women are not the same. So I dont mind "segreation" in some instances (military, dress, bathrooms...)

3rd December 2003, 11:51 AM	#21
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,768	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Do people think its sexism to have men and womens segregated bathrooms . For most i would say no. Why? Cause we realize there is this real difference tween men and women. men and women are not the same. So I dont mind "segreation" in some instances (military, dress, bathrooms...) No one is saying that's bad. But what is bad is forcing one group to integrate while allowing another to segregate. It would be like have a girl's bathroom and a boy's/girl's bathroom. Would that be ok with you? Would you want a hot chic you dont know walking in on you talking a dump?
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

3rd December 2003, 11:59 AM	#22
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Hey Tony, Love your sig!
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

3rd December 2003, 12:00 PM	#23
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	For the record I think its OK to have all male schools in some situations. But some people are saying "There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination.". NEVER is a strong word. THe VMI thing. It was my understanding that there really wasnt an all-women equivelent. Thats how the chicks got the rules changed.

3rd December 2003, 12:03 PM	#24
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,768	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london Hey Tony, Love your sig!
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

3rd December 2003, 12:04 PM	#25
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy For the record I think its OK to have all male schools in some situations. But some people are saying "There are never valid reasons for gender discrimination.". NEVER is a strong word. THe VMI thing. It was my understanding that there really wasnt an all-women equivelent. Thats how the chicks got the rules changed. Ok I'll bite, when is it ok to discriminate based on gender? P.S. What's VMI?
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3rd December 2003, 12:15 PM	#27
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	-VMI (Virginia Military Institute) is a state run para military college. -I dont like anyone walking in when I take a dump. I REALLY dont think the hot chick would like it at all. -I think its OK to have boys in girls separated in sports. Which is gender discrimination.

3rd December 2003, 12:18 PM	#28
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy -VMI (Virginia Military Institute) is a state run para military college. Thank you. Quote: -I think its OK to have boys in girls separated in sports. Which is gender discrimination. Why is it ok?
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3rd December 2003, 12:25 PM	#29
El Greco Summer worshipper Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Παρά θιν'αλός Posts: 14,307	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron Ok I'll bite, when is it ok to discriminate based on gender? When we want to channel male hormones into creativity.
	__________________ "Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht "Let it go and come to bed already, El Greco" - MoeFaux

3rd December 2003, 12:30 PM	#30
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Why is it OK. Well in sports I think its a matter of safety and fairness. Kinda like why we age disrciminate in sports. I think that it can be oK to have an all girls school, I also think its ok to have an all boys school. For matters of safety and fairness.

3rd December 2003, 12:36 PM	#31
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Why is it OK. Well in sports I think its a matter of safety and fairness. Kinda like why we age disrciminate in sports. I think that it can be oK to have an all girls school, I also think its ok to have an all boys school. For matters of safety and fairness. That kind of logic can be applied to give excuse to any kind of ism. I am all for merit, if a person can do something I don't care who they are as long as they are getting it done. If a woman is as physically fit as a man and can pass the same tests to get on a sports team why not let her, because she might get hurt?
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446

3rd December 2003, 12:46 PM	#32
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron That kind of logic can be applied to give excuse to any kind of ism. I am all for merit, if a person can do something I don't care who they are as long as they are getting it done. If a woman is as physically fit as a man and can pass the same tests to get on a sports team why not let her, because she might get hurt? Id be Ok with a chick on the guys team if she could hang. BUT i dont mind there being a girls team cuase otherwise they'd never get a chance to play. I could try out for little league and mow down them 10 yr olds. Is it agism to notlet me play little league??

3rd December 2003, 12:58 PM	#33
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Id be Ok with a chick on the guys team if she could hang. BUT i dont mind there being a girls team cuase otherwise they'd never get a chance to play. I may not be good enough to play basketball should I also get a team I can play on? Life sucks like that sometime and if you are not good in something there is no logical reason to lower the bar so everyone is happy Universities are forced to match funding for male and female teams of the same sport even though males need it more since more of them play. Sometimes Universities have teams with no players on them just because they need to have it to get funding. Quote: I could try out for little league and mow down them 10 yr olds. Is it agism to notlet me play little league?? Would you want to? Do you derive satisfaction from assaulting kids?
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3rd December 2003, 01:10 PM	#34
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron I may not be good enough to play basketball should I also get a team I can play on? Life sucks like that sometime and if you are not good in something there is no logical reason to lower the bar so everyone is happy Universities are forced to match funding for male and female teams of the same sport even though males need it more since more of them play. Sometimes Universities have teams with no players on them just because they need to have it to get funding. Yknow I sure you could find a baskeball league for your skill level down at the YMCA. I think thats a misleading statement about title 9. I have my problems wh title 9 too. Do you feel that handicapped parking is a greta injustice. Why shoudl the cripples get all the good spots!!!

3rd December 2003, 01:15 PM	#35
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Yknow I sure you could find a baskeball league for your skill level down at the YMCA. I think thats a misleading statement about title 9. I have my problems wh title 9 too. Do you feel that handicapped parking is a greta injustice. Why shoudl the cripples get all the good spots!!! And women can't do the same at YMCA? What the heck do handicapped people have to do with this discussion? You are slowly moving away from the topic. We are talking about able males and females who should compete equally instead of one side getting special privileges while the other side is forced to abide to the strict code.
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3rd December 2003, 01:29 PM	#36
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	I thought we were talking about if its ever OK to gender discriminate. I said yes. I believed that you and others thought it was never OK to discriminate. That were all equal all the time seperate is always bad.